Every race has its traitors, and every race has a name for them

[CatWoman]

The Condi Rice/"House Negro" thread highlights just how much people have gotten lost in the language.

Being a black person, I see no racist connotations in calling Rice a house negro.

That term originated during slavery, as it was the house negro who was the master's snitch, guardian, and attack dog.

She is a traitor plain and simple, much like the blacks of early America who hunted down their runaway brothers and sisters.

Also much like the Native American guides who joined up with the calvalry and helped them hunt down their brothers and sisters. I'm quite sure the natives had their own term for those guides.

By providing cover and eagerly promoting the Republicans racist policies, she betrays her very own.

And what does that make her?

[Canuckistanian]

1. Even the Norwegians had a name - Quisling

Quisling, after Norwegian fascist politician Vidkun Quisling,

is a term used to describe traitors and collaborationists. It is most commonly used for right-wing political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II Europe, as well as for their members and other collaborators. Today it is usually simply used to mean "traitor". It was Dictionary.com's Word of the Day on July 9, 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidkun_Quisling

[autorank]

109. And a highly descriptive name it is...this guy was reviled. Nice one! n/t

[Rex]

165. Always wondered where that term came from!

Thanks!

[Canuckistanian]

175. No probs!

Always glad to pass on trivia.....

[KitSileya]

220. And as a Norwegian,

I can tell you that we don't get offended at the use of that noun (as it has become). The French had Petain, Norway had Vidkun Quisling.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

2. That's interesting that you do not find the phrase offensive

as if I were black I think that I would find it offensive, but I understand your point that she is in fact subverting her race.

Which is something I just don't get about Connie as she is a very bright and articulate woman but why did she fall in with this bunch? Did she think that this was going to be the only shot she would get at the big time?

[CatWoman]

4. I don't see anything bright and articulate about her

perhaps because I'm so biased.

She is always in "liar" mode.

to me, liars are anything but bright or articulate.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

14. But then again that is what politics is about,

professional lying. And many great lier's are very bright, sometimes too bright, that's what makes them good at lying.

[CatWoman]

15. but she completely sucks at it

the bobbing of the head, the nervous tick, the blinking eyes.

come on, now.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

18. Well I'm sorry, I just don't see her in that light which is why I don't

get why she is involved in this administration. But then again, maybe I just don't get it, so to speak.

[Quantess]

155. Her voice shakes, lately.

I think she appears more nervous and unsure lately.

[hfojvt]

26. have you read Alterman's thesis "When Presidents Lie"?

That is not what politics is about. Don't pretend that the dishonesty of this administration is somehow normal or acceptable.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

41. History would refute your position.

But there potentially be some room to maneuver depending on how one defines a lie.

[Greyhound]

131. Acceptable? Not to me, but apparently most people have no problem with it.

Normal? Absolutely, always has been, always will be, at least until the sheeple stop punishing candidates that tell them the truth.

[Samantha]

80. I have never thought she was bright

I think your term for her is more accurate than mine. I have simply thought of her as a "yes" woman. When she debued with the Bush* coterie, I repeatedly heard she was extremely bright. I looked up some of her writings to get a sense of her direction, and I could not believe some of the stuff she had issued.

There are many people here at DU with a lot more intelligence than she, and they also have the courage to depart from the main stream when their gut dictates they must do so.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

86. I agree with you that she, for some reason, has let herself

become a yes woman. I just don't get why.

Which of her writings did you have issues with? Just curious, I have never read anything she has written.

[Samantha]

96. I did an Internet search five years ago and some of her stuff popped up

I think I read a portion of her doctorate thesis but it's been so long ago I truly cannot remember. I think you can find stuff easily if you just search. That's what I did. And I remember thinking how simplistic most of it was ....

[Freedom_from_Chains]

97. Thanks, I may do that if I find I have some spare time.

Most of the political writings I have read over the last decade has had to do with the writings of the neo-cons, which was pretty scary stuff. I unfortunately, just assumed that no one would ever buy their argument. Turns out that was a big mistake.

[Ms. Clio]

196. Her doctoral thesis was basically panned as a piece of crap

by true experts in the field.

[Spazito]

134. I agree, she was portrayed by the bush cabal and their right-wing

supporters as such but I have yet to see proof of that in either her words or actions, quite often I have seen the opposite. Being articulate does not equate to a higher level of intelligence although it is often seen as such.

[IronLionZion]

111. Condi is one of those very high IQ people with a lot of book smarts

so are Bill Clinton, Wes Clark, and Jimmy Carter. Funny how they trend towards Democratic.

You can be smart and lie. Intelligence is not directly related with honesty.

Some liars are very articulate, and very good at lying.

[madeline_con]

126. My "Diverse Populations" teachers says...

using the word "articulate" is a racist insult, as if African Americans wouldn't otherwise be articulate, and the person being discussed is unusual somehow. :shrug:

[KitSileya]

226. I disagree thoroughly with your teachers.

I call Bill Clinton articulate. I call people of every race and color if they are more articulate than the average person - regardless of where they come from or what color their skin. Heck, I'd call my worst enemy articulate if he was good at expressing himself in clear and effective language, getting his points across and convincing his listeners. Luckily, Bush is a moron when it comes to speaking - so, in other words, he's not articulate. I'm sure there are black women who can't string a sentence together, just like Bush, and just like Bill Clinton and many other white men, Condoleeza Rice may be called articulate without it being discriminatory. Whether she is, in fact, articulate, is another discussion entirely.

I would take whatever your teachers say with a grain of salt if they're this narrow-minded - it doesn't matter if they're narrow-minded on the side of political correctness or in bigotry. That's not the kind of teachers we want (says me, who is also a teacher.)

[chimpymustgo]

132. Condi comes off to me as thick, dull... lacking the most basic wits to lie

with a modicum of persuasion.

[Ilsa]

239. Yeah, but her PhD wasn't a legacy like The Moron's MBA was.

If she does her own speaking, she sounds pretty bright to me. But when she is busy spreading the company propaganda, she sounds like she is speaking to the lowest common denominator: W himself.

I think she is probably gifted and talented, but has pursued the wrong course in her life in hooking up with this bunch. I don't think she is gifted in foreign policy.

[oasis]

24. "Bright" Condi as NSA, never had a clue about planes being used as

missiles before 9/11. The Aug. 6 PDB didn't ring any bells inside her dense-as-lead noggin.

"bright" :eyes:

[SoCalDem]

31. and "bright Sovietologist" that she is/was, she does NOT speak

Russian fluently enough to conduct "biddness" in anything but English..:puke:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

44. And like most Americans speak more than one language

I don't think so.

[oasis]

47. Condi's brighter than "most" Americans. Have you forgotten your position?

Easy to do with such a weak foundation.:banghead:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

76. Just out of curiosity, did you have a point with your post?

[Ms. Clio]

190. yes, a very good one n/t

[SoCalDem]

50. When you PROMOTE yourself as a "Soviet EXPERT", it's

NOT unreasonable to be expected to speak the language of the country of your expertise...
Most Americans do NOT speak a second language, but they are also NOT secretary of state, nor were they presented as Soviet Experts..

We expect more of our diplomats and cabinet members than the fact that they stay at Holiday Express.

[oasis]

59. Same old story SoCalDem, it's so tough defending the indefensible

they finally gotta fold up their tents and go quietly into the night.:-(

[Freedom_from_Chains]

73. Ok, so name me 5 Democrat ambassadors who spoke the

language of the country they were assigned too. How many foreign languages did Bill Clinton speak.

[SoCalDem]

74. Condi is NOT an ambassador.. Bill Clinton never presented himself as

a "Sovietologist".. he never claimed to have been a figure skater or a concert pianist either

[CatWoman]

75. but he did play a mean sax

:D

[Freedom_from_Chains]

77. That he did do, not to mention looked pretty cool in shades.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

78. Yeah, and so that would mean?

[SoCalDem]

82. Okay...have a kitty

[Freedom_from_Chains]

83. Thank you, I love kitty's ( I have two)

Your picture does have a certain cheshire appeal to it.

[me b zola]

103. Democrat ambassadors???

I believe your slip is showing.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

104. Why, do Democrats never have ambassadors? n/t

[SoCalDem]

105. Diplomats (ambassadors & envoys) are appointed positions

Presidents appoint them, and they serve at the pleasure of the president. In days past, an ambassador was often an ex-pat/businessperson living in (whatever country. Since they knew the customs, language and the lay of the land, they were often tapped to be ambassador..they often served multiple presidents. They were a de facto American presence in the country they served in and lived in.

In recent history, these appointments have become little more than 4-yr shopping trips and stopovers for rich friends of the president who travel abroad.

More often than not, ambassadorships are handed out like party favors , for the ones who pony up the most cash to the campaigns of the presidents..

Perhaps this is part of the reason for our abysmal foreign policy.. No one is paying attention to what's going on around the world..

[Freedom_from_Chains]

106. I while I agree with you on this post, your previous post seemed

to say that was something Democrats don't ever get appointed too. Wasn't Joe Wilson a Democrat? Or did I misunderstand something about your previous post?

[SoCalDem]

108. Ypu must have referenced someone else's post.. I never mentioned party

..Off to watch Tavis..

Have another kitty:)

[Freedom_from_Chains]

110. Ahhh, that ones not as pretty. n/t

[me b zola]

112. I believe that you meant to say...

Democratic ambassador...or did you? It is a rethuglican defect to not understand how to properly use Democrat/Democratic. I imagine that you were posting under duress, under the influence...or something.

Here's to proper use of language :toast:

[Spazito]

135. LOL, good catch! n/t

[Ms. Clio]

193. speaking of language. . . .

It's "Democratic," not "Democrat." The latter is a rightwing term.

HTH.

[Ms. Clio]

191. If she doesn't speak or read Russian, then she was never an "expert"

Her dissertation must have been total shit, with few, if any, Russian primary sources.

[Igel]

230. One can read Russian quite well,

and speak it quite poorly.

Just as one can be a brilliant orator and a crappy writer. Or a fluent listener and a lousy speaker.

[Ms. Clio]

236. her dissertation sucked n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. I'd hope that most people who have PhDs in Russian studies...

speak Russian.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

81. And I might hope the same but I don't think that it would mean

they would be unable to know anything about Russia if they didn't speak the language.

Just as a side not her Phd is in political science.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Political science with respect for the Soviet Union.

Which some how means she studied Soviet politics without reading anything in the original Russian and relied heavily on translations.

Doesn't sound very good to me.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

88. Well I think you will find that we have lots of people who have

majored in philosophy or greek literature who neither read nor speak latin and greek. In fact I don't think I know any attorneys who know even the most simple latin.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

90. My daughter's got a PhD in the Classics.

She speaks fluent Latin and Ancient Greek and several other languages. They were fundamental for her to get her degree. I can ask her if you'd like, but she'd probably think it's ridiculous to have a PhD on the Soviet Union without speaking Russian.

Of course attorneys don't speak Latin. There's no reason they should.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

94. Yeah, for a Phd in the classics I can see why that would be

required, but not to specialize in a foreign country in politics. If that was a requirement I doubt we'd have very many foreign specialist in politics. But ask her and see what she thinks.

Since most of our law derives from Rome, Black's almost always gives the Latin name for a legal concept, one would think that attorneys would have a least a basic understanding. But no, not a clue. But then again, since most of the English language (80%) is derived from Latin and Greek, one would think that most Americans would have a basic understanding of it, but again, not a clue.

Like say for instance, the word Democrat.

[lolly]

172. Nonsense

Attorneys learn the Latin words they need to understand Latin. You don't need to know how to speak Latin to pick up the vocabulary you need to be a lawyer.

They aren't reading the original Latin lawbooks.

You DO need to speak a country's language in order to become an "expert" on it. You may know a lot about a country, but you don't merit a GRADUATE degree without knowing the language. Maybe you could get by with an undergraduate degree in Poly Sci, but not a Ph.D. with an emphasis in one country without knowing the language.

English is not 80% derived from Latin and Greek. English is a Germanic language. All our basic words--pronouns, articles, most frequently used verbs, etc--are Germanic. We have "borrowed" 1000s of Latin (not nearly so many Greek) words, but English is still a Germanic language.

[Ms. Clio]

194. A "major" is not a dissertation, or don't you know the difference?

[Cha]

89. Thanks for sticking up

for that lying piece of warmongering shit, condasleeza rice.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

92. Hey no problem

I know it might be more socially correct here to denigrate and castigate those with whom I disagree with, as it certainly relives one of the obligation to develop a cogent argument addressing the specific issues that one disagrees with. But that just never has really been my thing.

Just out of curiosity, do you hate Condi so much because she is black.

[Cha]

93. Yeah, let me throw that

strawman argrument right back in your face. I don't like her because she's a lying piece of warmongering shit just like hero bush.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

95. Oooohhhhhhh. LOL

[Canuckistanian]

177. I studied the Russian lanuguage

And it's sure given me a few insights into the Russian mind.

When combined with a good knowledge of Russian history and culture, I can almost predict what a Russian leader will say in any situation.

[Ms. Clio]

195. imagine a German or Frenchman with a Ph.D. in American Studies

who couldn't speak English.

[KitSileya]

228. Yeah, I believe it was Virginia Heinlein, wife of Robert,

who learned Russian in order to understand Russia and not have a barrier to understanding the people when they went on a trip there in the 1950s. How can you truly understand a people and a country if you can't speak their language properly, or read their literature in the original? How can you get a proper picture of the USSR if your source is Pravda and Kremlin and not the average Russian on the street as well?

To be sure, according to wikipedia, Rice loves Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky (and "leans towards the latter in wordview" which ach! must make you very paranoid.)

[shanti]

120. she's bright at lying

very. the lot of them.

[JVS]

58. Yeah, when people talk about "race traitors" I get an unpleasant feeling

[CatWoman]

61. Sapphocrat posted a very good article on this thread

Noah thought he had it bad. For 41 days and 41 nights, the Republican Party rained down racial obscenity upon Black America, beginning with Trent Lott's December 5 birthday greeting to Strom Thurmond and climaxing on Martin Luther King's birthday, January 15, when George Bush declared the University of Michigan law school's affirmative action program unconstitutional. Bush capped off the holiday weekend with a visit to a Black church, where he tempted the congregation with faith-based favors. The Queen of the show, Condoleezza Rice, blew kisses to the crowd - an image that should be etched in memory, raising as it does the most profound challenge to historical Black political behavior.

If we cannot be moved to revulsion by brazen acts of treason, then we cannot hope to exercise the power of a coherent political force. Condoleezza Rice is the purest expression of the race traitor. No polite description is possible.

http://www.blackcommentator.com/26/26_commentary.html

sums up my feelings 200%

[readmoreoften]

116. I get an unpleasant feeling when I hear it because I'm white.

And "race traitor" when said by white people is a racist term in and of itself. It means that you deign to treat other races as equal humans.

To me it makes perfect sense when a person of color says "race traitor." If you make the living conditions of people of your race or ethnicity poorer in exchange for your own personal wealth and power: you are a traitor.

I would say that conservatives are all race traitors: human race traitors.

[itzamirakul]

71. In answer to your question...

"Did she think this was going to be the only shot she would get at the big time?"

Answer: YES

The GOP provided her with great jobs, excellent pay, high-ranking jobs and made her their brown, "fair-haired child."

In the meantime, Democrats have been slooooooooooow at bringing African Americans to a level of executive position in the party. There is still a great deal of racism in our party and it raises its evil head whenever a black party member seeks a job of some decision-making level. Even our boy Clinton did not put any blacks into REAL power positions, because it might make some of those southern whites who remain in our party angry.

I wonder how many black people Hillary has on her staff?
Oh, and I don't mean administrative assistants, who are mainly go-fers.

[creeksneakers2]

100. Bill Clinton had six black cabinet appointees

which is the record. Clinton hired more blacks at all levels. Hillary's chief of staff at the White House was black. Which black to you think was excluded from a higher decision making level because of his/her race? I don't know where you are getting your ideas from.

[itzamirakul]

128. Your boy Bill Clinton may have had black appointees but he had NO blacks

in any positions as much upfront as Powell and Rice have enjoyed with the GOP. I still say that the Democratic Party is terrified to put a black person in any postion of real power. Being in the cabinet gives one a voice but no real power, else cabinet members would not quit so readily to go into private industry or into the media (Stephanopoulis). I really used to love Bill Clinton but not any more. I think a lot of people are beginning to see him for what he really is.

Hillary's chief of staff...hmmm...and how does that relate to real power?

The racists in the GOP have learned that Powell and Rice have willingly given up their claim to being African Americans and have joined some ethereal crowd of people who have NO ethnic background...therefore they are acceptable to the "unwashed masses" (sarcasm intended)of skinheads and supremacists that form a major part of the Republican base. The GOP also realizes that in order to APPEAR to represent ALL Americans, they have to have a few faces in the forefront so that the racism can continue unabaited underneath the covers. By not having A LOT OF BLACKS in the party, the Republicans can then escape the pressures of giving that group any special considerations as is done with other special interest groups. There simply are not enough blacks in the Republican Party to make any demands.

[fujiyama]

154. Do you honestly believe

that Clinton didn't appoint blacks to those particular positions because of racism or pressure from racists? I don't think his decisions were based on race. Bush's picks can be chalked up to little more than tokenism.

Though I do think that Clinton made some shitty picks for cabinet positions? Les Aspen? The guy that allowed Rush to be on AF radio? And I still think it made little sense to appoint a repuke for a positions like Sec. of Defense.

[Cleita]

137. I don't think she's articulate.

Have you ever tried to make sense out of what she's saying? I never heard anyone who could say absolutely nothing with a lot of empty words. Of course in her case it's probably a deliberate snow job.

[AspenRose]

149. Blacks often use it among themselves to describe other blacks

That's why it isn't as offensive. WE control the language and the understanding of how it's used, not a white person.

And it has a historical context; there WERE 'field slaves' and 'house slaves.'

Where do you think the historical strain between light and dark skinned blacks came from? :think:

A white person telling a black person who uses the term that it's offensively racist, is in itself offensive. Honestly, where do white people get off telling black people what's supposed to be offensive or not when black folks are talking about other black people?!

[KitSileya]

222. I don't know about her brightness and articulation,

but it seems to me that when I read her biography that she always steered her opinions towards a very hawkish neo-con corporatist point of view. Her kremlinology seemed very outdated. However, I've heard that she was very popular among the students when she was provost at Stanford. She's certainly thrown students overboard with her support of the Bush admin - they've made sure the only affirmative action there is is for students who are born rich to begin with. That is a form of treason, as is the support of a govenrment that has done nothing to help and everything to destroy blacks in NOLA, for example. We would call Log Cabin Republicans quislings as well - if house negro has the same kind of connotation, it would suit just fine.

[dufrenne]

3. There is a problem with such an argument though

The problem with that thinking is that: (a) it denies that she never had to deal with the same problems that millions of blacks had to and (b) all blacks have to think a certain way to be considered "black." I.e. you're robots with no capacity to disagree on issues. Yes, she might engage in policies that are harmful to her community, but why is that considered traitorous with respect to race. I.e. you don't here people accusing Bush of being a traitor to his race or any white person who harms his community, such as Ken Lay, as a "traitor to his race".

A traitor to humanity...that's another story ;)

[H2O Man]

22. Wrong.

It does not deny that she ever had to deal with issues involving being black in the United States. Quite the opposite: it describes with 100% accuracy her tactics for dealing with those issues.

[dufrenne]

42. I just don't understand

why a certain race demands that its members cannot diverge from the rest of the group. If a black person seeks to harm other blacks, we can call him a bad person, but a race traitor? I just don't think so. The term is racist in itself, in that it implies that all blacks think a certain way. Do we call a black man who kills another black man a race traitor? What about a black business owner who fraudently steals money from a business he runs in the black community? There are many blacks who don't support affirmative action, but do so in good faith...does that makes them traitorous? Sure, they are misguided and wrong, but it seems that many people who are against affirmative action (aside from obvious racists) hold their views genuinely and not out of any animus toward their own race. That being said, I have no idea what her views on black issues are. I will say this, whatever her policies, and no matter how bad she is, the fact that she is one of the most powerful people on the planet is very empowering and inspirational for many young people whose images of strong black women are few and far between. I'm not a fan per se, but I do recognize what it means that to have a black secretary of state in a country where not even 50 years ago, a black woman was treated as lowest form of life, next to a black man.

[H2O Man]

46. I had responded

specifically to the first part of your previous answer. Regarding the second part, which is the substance of your response, I would recommend reading or listening to one of Minister Malcolm X's decriptions of the topic at hand. You may agree with Malcolm, or you may disagree. But I think it would clear up any confusion of why people might think of Condi in the manner described in the OP.
Malcolm is a wonderful source for clarification.

[dufrenne]

52. Well,

I know why people might think that way...I was being rhetorical. I just don't agree with it. Traitor, especially to one's race, is a very strong term. It implies that there is a set of policies or ideologies that are right, and cannot be disagreed with. Who's to decide what is right? Who's to decide who the traitors are? If a black person likes Condi, are they a traitor? Classifying race in such a way is dangerous and prescisely the opposite of where race relations should be headed. Blacks are unique invididuals with unique thoughts...as are members of other races. They are not a monolith. Or in your ideal world, would you have this as an acceptable phrase: "all blacks think xxxx" or "all blacks believe in xxxx". I don't think that would be welcome.

[SoCalDem]

56. Whether we like it or not, there ARE norms

People can be a traitor in other ways.. Families have "traitors" too.. Workplaces have traitors..

In the purest sense of the word, it just means going against whatever group you "belong" to, while pretending to still "belong to them faithfully"...hence the "cover" for the treachery..

[H2O Man]

60. Easy to answer.

Perhaps one could take your question, and turn it around a tiny bit. Is it ever okay to make a comment such as the one that our friend CatWoman made? She called Condi a name. She doesn't tend to call every person who behaves in a manner she finds offensive that name. She used it for a specific purpose reason. She noted that there are people who deserve to be called by such names, and made clear this was not exclusive to any one "race" or other group of people. Is there ever a time when she would be correct in using the term, as defined by Malcolm X ? Or is it always wrong? And if it is always wrong, isn't that a fine example of the group-defined thinking you oppose?

[joe_sixpack]

98. When you use race in any way in order to insult someone

that you disagree with, I think that is wrong. It's as wrong for those who aren't racist or prejudiced as it is for those who are. Growing up in Chicago, too many times I had to hear ignorant comments like "dumb n*****s", or some other racist crap about minorities. Why is it necessary to bring race into criticizing her? Call her stupid, a bitch, smug, etc. I remember in grade school or high school when our class was reading "Huck Finn" out loud and some moron relished putting extra emphasis on words that are now considered slurs. It's as if there's a certain glee to be able to use words to denigrate someone of a different race because there's a perception of immunity being that we are liberals and Democrats and of course everyone knows there's no racists among us, is there?

[CatWoman]

99. can we just agree to disagree?

the term was coined just for people like that. Sorry. That's just the way it is. It aptly describes one of that caliber. Then. And now.

[bullimiami]

5. malcolm x had no problem saying it. she is bushs house negro.

[CatWoman]

6. LOL

CatWoman doesn't have a problem in saying it, either :D

[Spazito]

138. Mr. Bellefonte is in your corner as well!

He, too, had no problem defining both powell and rice in those terms.

[CatWoman]

140. that's right; I forgot about that

:hi:

[Spazito]

144. Anyone who is in the same corner as Mr. Belafonte, someone I adore,

receives nothing less than my greatest respect!

:hug:

[goclark]

211. If Harry said it we are in the best of company! nt

[Hubert Flottz]

7. Condie is a neocon...

Period!

[VelmaD]

8. she's also a gender traitor

supporting a regime that devalues women like this one does.

[CatWoman]

9. excellent point, Velma

:hi:

[Spazito]

139. Agree! she is trying out macho the men in her despicable behavior

at least the male republicans are out front in their belief in their own superiority over women. rice pretends to be otherwise while working "for the man". Despicable.

[tomp]

198. above and beyond all this, she is a national traitor!

an imperialist, corporatist whore, lethal to the interests of america.

oh, and a war criminal.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. I wouldn't say it myself.

Since I'm white, and it's racially charged, I wouldn't use the term "house n*****" or "uncle Tom" personally.

But I'd certainly agree with whoever said it in regards to these pricks.

[CatWoman]

13. I think I must be the most politically incorrect person on DU

but at least I'm no one's house negro. :D

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. You're black?!

Holy shit! All this time I was thinking Julie Newmar and I find out you're Eartha Kitt!

RAWR!

[CatWoman]

54. LOL

I thought that was common knowledge by now

:hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Sorry, that must be my alzheimers.

Holy shit, you're black!

:P

[AspenRose]

153. Bwahahahahahaha

ROFL :rofl: :rofl:

[Bake]

188. Rowwwwwwwwwwwwwrrrrrrrr!

Bake

[helpman]

11. much

Condi is more than an American phenonemon - she's the bitch with a whip who held back the blacks at the docks in Cape Verde.

She's going to hell.

[VelmaD]

28. please refrain...

from using gender slurs...thank you

[Dutch]

150. If you want to tell other DUers what they can and cant say

Maybe you should apply to become a moderator--although the even-handedness involved in moderating does make it harder to pick on newbies with 20 posts, I imagine..

[helpman]

168. Sorry

I put her in the same class as Hirsi Ali - the new poster girl for Richard Perle and his kin at AEI.

Sometimes people are what they appear to be and, political correctness aside, she's a bitch. In fact, in the UK, we would call her a C"NT.

If you don't like it, put me on ignore. I am sure I am in the majority at DU when expressing my feelings about Condi.

[Quantess]

156. I think you said it well!

I use that word too, if it's deserved (which in her case, it is). :hi:

[Sapphocrat]

12. I know! I know!

It makes her a house negro! (See, I learn fast. LOL)

Personally, after first reading Malcolm X's explanation of "house negro" v. "field negro," I don't think there's a better term in the English language for Rice. I just don't use the term myself, because I get that weak, knee-jerky feeling that I shouldn't, because I'm white.

On the other hand, I also think I understand, innately, the expression of betrayal conveyed by "house negro". See, we gay folks have this little problem -- a faction of our own house negroes: gay Republicans. And we have a name for them too.

[CatWoman]

17. I didn't know you were gay!!!

and I had my hopes all up and every thing :D

:hi:

[Sapphocrat]

21. LOL!

That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me all day! (The "hopes up" part, not the "didn't know you were gay" part.)

You crack me up, CW! :D

[readmoreoften]

119. Yup. Assimliationist queers vs integrationist queers.

look how "straight acting" i am. yeah, i'm sure the straights will like you better if you keep promising that you're "just like them". How straight do you look when you have another's ** in your ***?

hi sapphocrat :hi:

[Sapphocrat]

123. Nothing wrong with "straight-acting queers"...

...as long as that's one's nature. What one is, one is, but damn you if you try to act as anything other than who/what you are. It's the square pegs who know they are square pegs, yet try to fit into the round holes against their own square-peg nature, that tick me off.

(Not directing this mini-rant at you, RMO -- just explaining for the benefit of any lurkers too afraid to admit they are who and what they are.)

:hi: readmoreoften

[readmoreoften]

124. It only irritates me when people call themself "straight acting."

As a femme, a lot of people who don't know me call me 'straight acting.' But I'm not "acting straight." I'm a femme --I think you know what that means ;) Call yourself a butch male, a lipstick lesbian, "not flaming", a sporty guy, a girly girl. WHATEVER. But straight people don't own that gender territory. You're not "acting" like a straight. You're being youself! And that's great!

I think my butch girlfriend might be "straight acting" like a teenage boy sometimes. Does that count?

My point is: I hate it when queers apologize for being queers. I love y'all... so shet up and start loving yourselves! :hug:

[CatWoman]

141. stop trying to flirt with Sapphocrat

he's mine, dammit!!! :D

[Sapphocrat]

159. "he"?

NOW I feel BUTCH!

*grunt!*

[CatWoman]

169. LOL

I thought you were a guy :D

[Sapphocrat]

174. Must have been the earring that fooled you.

Does this mean... it's... over between us??

[CatWoman]

176. no way!!!!

:loveya:

[Sapphocrat]

180. Oh, good!

I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy again!
:loveya:

[tnlefty]

16. I'm not so sure. What the hell am I supposed to call Bush**???!!!

I'm being serious here. I can think of many things to call him, but I can't come up with one that is specific to race.

He's a bigot. He is a charleton. He is a lying, warmongering mofo. I think he's evil. A traitor to the Constituion and The Bill of Rights.

Caucasian creep just doesn't have much zing to it. :shrug:

[k_jerome]

27. average white man. nt.

[tnlefty]

67. Sorry, won't work. 1. Silver cokespoon up his nose, blueblood, elitist

removes him from the realm of average.

2. The fact that he is a SFB (shit for brains) further removes him from average.

3. white - unfortunately yes

4. man - not my idea of a man, but I suppose so

5. I know many average white males who are nothing like him.

[Olney Blue]

133. make that below average human being

[stepnw1f]

217. Have to Surgically Remove the Silverspoon from his Ass

first, then work on the elitest circle he runs around in.

Average white man my ass.

[SoCalDem]

29. Since he's from the "majority" race (for now) there are many things

he could be called, because HIS race is not at issue.. he's just doing what's expected of his CLASS.. He's just a run of the mill, deserting, pampered, elitist, ne'er-do-well.

[Raksha]

45. That's because white people don't identify with being white per se.

Except for white suprmacists, of course. They identify with each other on a more specific ethnic or religious basis than just being "white." I'm Jewish and therefore identify with other Jews. Others might identify on the basis of national origin, like being Irish-American or Polish-American or whatever.

In America just being "white" is too broad a generalization to be meaningful to most people, so they identify with the nearest applicable sub-category.

Do I consider Bush a traitor? Yeah, but AS AN AMERICAN! So maybe just plain ol' traitor is the most applicable word?

[MarkDevin]

118. How about, "that mother****er?"

That's what several people that I know call him!

[NuttyFluffers]

127. Let me try: completely intended to be offensive to tender ears

Bush is a typical Peyton-Place-does-the-Hamptons, WASPy, Rx drug-addled, silver spoon fop of a carpet bagger, urban cowboy cum greedy back-room good-ol-boy poser, son-of-a-bitch (which is the damn truth!) honkey! and he was conceived when his mom slipped and landed on the parquet in her hubby's rent-boy orgy lounge while she was reachin' for another lowball to chase away the urge to scream.

i tried... for DU i give. :evilgrin:

[Change has come]

231. Brilliant!

:applause: :rofl:

[liberalmuse]

19. Race? She's a traitor to gender, too!

Condi is a middle-aged good 'ol boy trapped in the body of a black woman.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

23. I am still not comfortable with it

I just say she is wrong and leave it at that. What more is there to say, really?

[SensibleAmerican]

25. Traitor? Funny, I didn't know that blacks had their own nation

n/t

[H2O Man]

30. You might benefit

from learning the definition of the word "traitor."

[SensibleAmerican]

35. Definition of treason

traitor (n.): someone who betrays his country by committing treason

[oasis]

37. The OP used the word "traitor". Look that up.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CatWoman]

53. LOLOLOLOL

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

39. That's sadly limited.

Consult a dictionary. Learning is a good thing. A person is a traitor when they betray, though that betrayal is not limited to a "nation." Could be their family, friends, or any other group. Could be that they have betrayed their own values. It is not limited to nation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. you left out "...,or a cause, or a trust,..."

Did you do that on purpose?

[oasis]

36. I'd consult a dictionary before I started making smartass comments.

Do that,then tell us if it's still funny.

[Karenca]

38. Funny?

Condi: Traitor to her race. Not so difficult.
I'm sure you can understand that.

[oasis]

49. whered'e go?

:shrug:

[CatWoman]

55. and I'm the queen

you may go now.

dismissed.

[goclark]

213. We certainly do have our our Nation/Community

We are FAM- A- LEE as the song goes!

[calico1]

32. Doesn't it make a difference though if

its a Black person who says it vs. a White person? I have always heard Blacks say that they can call each other the N word, but its different from a White person calling them that. :shrug:

As for Condi, I agree she seems very articulate and well educated but this was definitely not a good career move for her. She can't be too bright.

[goclark]

214. Smart calico! ~ there are somethings we like to take care of

on our own.

We Are FAM A LEE as the song goes.

We truly know how to take care of our own. We don't need any help. :)


There are some discussions that I try my best to stay away from on DU because I have not walked in the shoes of those cultural/religious groups. For example, I could not possibly know how it feels to be a Muslim or a Jew during these trying times.

I weep for both groups and for the world.

As far as Condi is concerned, I weep that she and this bunch of CROOKS are not able to make decisions about the ME crisis and they are our "LEADERS." That is a horror story of massive proportions,IMO.

[enid602]

33. Condi

Condi's an AMERICAN dammit, and her policies aren't anti-black, -woman or -republican, but rather anti-American. When someone of any race is educated, talented and holds high office in a major country like the US, their constituency becomes the entire country, even the whole world. She's not merely dissappointing her race or gender, but rather much of the world. For those who think she's talentless or only got the job because she's friends with Bush, I ask you this: who else in the world could possibly spin Bush's failures/policies as long as Condi has? She's got the toughest job in the world. Yes, I am disappointed with her, and deeply depressed that in this era of diseconomies, excess and waste, Condi's considerable talents were not otherwise put to use for the good.

[goclark]

215. Sorry to say that America is not color blind

maybe one day we will live out MLK's dream.... "how long, not long" is not here yet.

She sure is Anti American to me but until fat meat ain't greasy, she is Black/African American. And, she represents our race to the world. For that, WE are sorry. We have much smarter people than CondiLIEsa that could represent us to the world.

Let John Conyers represent me, let Harry Belafonte represent me!

[cali]

34. Baloney.

I don't believe in the concept of traitor to one's race. I believe in humanity, and believe in traitors to humanity. That's what Rice is, and it's far worse than being a "traitor to one's race".

[Sapphocrat]

48. One's perspective probably depends...

...on whether or not one is a member of any racial, ethnic, cultural, or other minority group betrayed from within -- especially on such a grand scale as Rice.

I certainly can't speak for African-Americans, but my impression is that CatWoman is hardly alone in her assessment.

Here, read:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/26/26_commentary.html

The sentiment expressed is not an anomaly.

[CatWoman]

57. Cali,

Bush came into office by denying my people the right to vote - one of the most sacred rights we have fought, died and bled for.

And this sorry, er, "woman" is his enabler.

That's the way I feel about it.

[cali]

62. I do understand that that's the way you feel about it

and I'm sorry I characterized it as baloney. I happen to believe strongly that we all have more in common than that which separates us, and that begins with our common humanity. Rice hasn't just betrayed a race; her betrayal extends further than that.

[Generic Other]

51. It's a terrible insult to be called this, isn't it?

It's the equivalent of being called a race-traitor. So it must be the opposite of being called a sista. Like being called a Benedict Arnold, only race specific. Not like being a Tokyo Rose, but it might be somewhat like being called teacher's pet or Smithers. Is it like being Judas Iscariot? Or Brutus the backstabber? Seems to imply a more groveling position. Winston Smith maybe in 1984 when he begged them to torture his beloved instead of himself.

A multiplicity of shades of meaning without even going into the slavery analogy. The sting of the insult as directed by one African American to another seems particularly pointed.

[CatWoman]

66. GO,

This issue arose from another thread in which attendees at the NAACP meeting yesterday supposedly said this to Rice:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2733339&mesg_id=2733339

[Jara sang]

63. I know what you are saying Catwoman but I those words are not apropos.

The only time I have ever heard the words "race traitor" it was in reference to whites calling other whites "race traitors" for marrying outside their "race".

[CatWoman]

64. Blacks do the same

well, some of them do.

Me?

I'm like, "Live and let live".

I could care less who marries whom.

I knew this woman who would openly attack verbally any black man she saw with a white woman, or who was married to one.

What a huge waste of energy.

[shanti]

121. just because you have never heard it

doesn't negate the fact. many people are blind to this fact.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

68. Traitor to your race?

Would imply that the norm is to be loyal to your race.


The only folks I know of that talk in terms of being a traitor or loyal to ones race are racist folks.

The KKK i understand is very big on race loyality

Doing a google on race traitor http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=race+traitor&btnG=Google+Search

turns up MANY interesting links. Links that I either would not want to be associated with, or those that discuss the racist implications of the term.

[Hatalles]

69. In Urdu, the word for it is "chamcha."

Pronounced "chum-chah." It literally translates into English as the word "spoon." Many Pakistani's view Musharraf as "Bush's chamcha."

[KingFlorez]

70. I don't think it's racist, it's true

She is a traitor. If this was 1860 she'd be in the, uh Big House for lack of a better word and ratting out slaves who tried to escape. People who think it's racist to call her that are very misinformed and reactionary.

[eridani]

72. They are the turkeys praising Frying Pan Park

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=4873

Unlike in the old days the New Imperialist doesn't need to trudge around the tropics risking malaria or diahorrea or early death. New Imperialism can be conducted on e-mail. The vulgar, hands-on racism of Old Imperialism is outdated. The cornerstone of New Imperialism is New Racism.

The tradition of 'turkey pardoning' in the U.S. is a wonderful allegory for New Racism. Every year since 1947, the National Turkey Federation presents the U.S. President with a turkey for Thanksgiving. Every year, in a show of ceremonial magnanimity, the President spares that particular bird (and eats another one). After receiving the presidential pardon, the Chosen One is sent to Frying Pan Park in Virginia to live out its natural life. The rest of the 50 million turkeys raised for Thanksgiving are slaughtered and eaten on Thanksgiving Day. ConAgra Foods, the company that has won the Presidential Turkey contract, says it trains the lucky birds to be sociable, to interact with dignitaries, school children and the press. (Soon they'll even speak English!)

That's how New Racism in the corporate era works. A few carefully bred turkeys ó the local elites of various countries, a community of wealthy immigrants, investment bankers, the occasional Colin Powell, or Condoleezza Rice, some singers, some writers (like myself) ó are given absolution and a pass to Frying Pan Park.The remaining millions lose their jobs, are evicted from their homes, have their water and electricity connections cut, and die of AIDS. Basically they're for the pot. But the Fortunate Fowls in Frying Pan Park are doing fine. Some of them even work for the IMF and the WTO - so who can accuse those organisations of being anti-turkey? Some serve as board members on the Turkey Choosing Committee - so who can say that turkeys are against Thanksgiving? They participate in it! Who can say the poor are anti-corporate globalisation? There's a stampede to get into Frying Pan Park. So what if most perish on the way?

[TahitiNut]

85. I firmly disagree.

I don't believe Condi has a proper "place" due to the color of her skin or what we (noxiously) call "race." I believe she's a sociopath and that makes her a traitor to the human race. I feel no obligation to "whites" whatsoever and do not think of myself as anything but a human being. I don't know why I'd feel anyone else has any different obligation. When people (of any color, religion, or ethnicity) participate in the oppression and subjugation of people (of any color, religion, or ethnicity) I am NOT obliged to adopt THEIR division and categorization of human beings, all of whom I regard as inherently worthy of love and respect, even if their acts are appalling and atrocious and leave civil and sane people no choice but to isolate them from others for the health and safety of all (including them).

Hell, my tasty melon liqueur, I don't love you either because of your color or despite it - I love you because you're YOU. All of what makes you you isn't separable or some plug-and-playable commodity... it's just YOU. :loveya:
(And because you've invited me to kiss your ass... but that's another subject.) :evilgrin:

[CatWoman]

91. awwwwwwwwwwwwwww

your'e soooooooooooo sweet :*

:loveya:

[malaise]

87. She is a disgrace to

the race and to humanity. And yes she has acquired an education but her approach to life has been 'playing smart but not being clever' Marley
Karma awaits.
Edit - add.

[creeksneakers2]

101. I don't like the word traitor

when it implies that somebody must be of certain beliefs because they belong to some category of people.

RW propaganda claims that there are lots of black conservatives but they are afraid to express themselves because they'll be called Uncle Toms. I don't believe many blacks would call another black an Uncle Tom because of their politics. I'm surprised to see it here.

Calling someone a race traitor gives the RW ammunition. The righties want to pass off the prevailing opinions of blacks in America as part of a group loyalty to
a black plot to dishonestly obtain government and other benefits.

Saying that someone who disagrees or joins the other party is a race traitor implies that there are race loyalists. It implies that liberal views don't have merit on their own, they are only rhetoric supplied to help blacks get a tactical advantage for a conflict with whites. It implies there is a punishment for not going along.

Calling someone a race traitor calls into question the freely chosen views coming from so many. Its something racists love to hear.

[CatWoman]

102. I'm sorry, but please believe me when I say

that I don't give a flying fuck about giving the RW ammunition.

I'd like to give those fuckers a serious time out.

Those idiots are morons on steroids. Fuck them. It's not a simple matter of "disagreement".

For fucks sake..........

[shanti]

122. thank you

.

[Sapphocrat]

163. Try thinking of it this way.

You write, "I don't like the word traitor when it implies that somebody must be of certain beliefs because they belong to some category of people."

I think you (and a lot of people) are missing a huge point: You can believe whatever you want, but when you put those beliefs into actions that actively hurt people with whom you share a common history of hardship -- when you are actively contributing to that hardship in order to fulfill some self-serving goal (money, status, whatever) -- when you sell out to the very people who would oppress you, and allow them to use you for their purposes -- then you are a traitor.

Aside from the hardcore Lieberman supporters, I don't see many DUers complaining when somebody calls Joe a traitor to the Democratic Party. Why not? Is it simply that the term "race traitor" is so emotionally charged, and "party traitor" isn't? And isn't Joe actively contributing to the continued hardship of the party, at the expense of the party, in order to serve his own selfish purposes?

What else would you call a person like that but a "traitor"?

How about women like Phyllis Schafly, and Ann Coulter, and organizations like Concerned Women for America -- all of whom actively hurt people with whom they share a common history of hardship in order to fulfill some self-serving goal? Are these women not "gender traitors"?

Are Log Cabin Republicans not, for lack of a better term, "gay traitors"?

Bottom line: Condoleezza Rice is a "race traitor."

Why is it so hard for so many people to make this connection?

P.S. I don't give a rat's patoot about ammunition for the Wrong Wing. What they can't twist to suit their purposes, they invent (a.k.a. "making shit up"). Worrying about what "they" think, or what they'll do with it, is THE root problem of the Democratic Party today. It's called appeasement, and it DOESN'T WORK. But that is a subject for another day.

[creeksneakers2]

173. You make some great points

I agree with your definition of traitor. I guess it comes down to when one decides an act is more than just a difference of opinion and becomes a hostile act.

I don't believe Joe Lieberman is a traitor because he voted for or supports the war in Iraq. I believe he's a traitor because he said the party shouldn't criticize Bush. I don't see how that can be anything but helping the other side. And Joe Lieberman volunteered to become a Democrat, and has received support because he is a Democrat, so I think that's different than somebody who is born black.

With Condi, the posts and links gave two examples of what was considered traitorous activity. One was appearing with Bush at the NAACP convention. I don't think her presence said anything but that Bush has one black person he listens to and he thinks that's going to cover up how he treats the rest. A shameful act by Condi, but I don't know if it goes to the point of race traitor. Maybe meets your definition.

The other point against Condi was her remarks about a racial diversity program at the University of Michigan. Condi said she was against giving advantages to black applicants but was for trying to achieve diversity. Personally, I'm not convinced that one can be done without the other, but I can see where a rational person could truly believe in that approach. I think that's approximately what the Supreme Court had to say about it. If Condi had said that blacks should be kept out of the University of Michigan then I'd say she's a race traitor.

As far as how much help to the right is relevant or not relevant I don't get the point. If what the righties do and are told doesn't matter, what does it matter what Condi tells them or says? What does anything matter if we aren't concerned with results? When I say ammunition,I'm talking talking about actual occurrences they can use to convince converts. The middle is skeptical of the RW says. They won't be skeptical anymore if shown proof.

I don't understand your basic world view of the right wing because on one hand you say we shouldn't worry about them but on the other hand you say we should stand up to them. Why would we stand up to them if we aren't worried about them? How should we stand up to them? I'd like to take them on with boldness and shrewd tactics.

My world view says that they are a threat and we ought to act together to defeat them. Not just here at DU but in the whole country. There is such a thing as loyalty and to me an important part of that is doing things that help the left and not doing things that help the other side. Doesn't feeding the right make one a traitor?

I'd agree with saying something the right likes if its true, but this isn't much to take a stand on. Saying blacks are race traitors is no different than saying whites are race traitors to me. If somebody called me a race traitor because I believe in affirmative action I'd be angry.

[Sapphocrat]

179. You make a lot of good points yourself. :)

I agree with your definition of traitor. I guess it comes down to when one decides an act is more than just a difference of opinion and becomes a hostile act.

Exactly. Perfectly put.

I don't believe Joe Lieberman is a traitor because he voted for or supports the war in Iraq. I believe he's a traitor because he said the party shouldn't criticize Bush. I don't see how that can be anything but helping the other side. And Joe Lieberman volunteered to become a Democrat, and has received support because he is a Democrat, so I think that's different than somebody who is born black.

True; political affiliation is altogether different from being born black (or gay or female, or whatever) -- but it's something I think we're all a lot more comfortable discussing in terms of "treason." It was easier for me to work backward from a more familiar point of conflict (Lieberman's party loyalty, or lack of) to "race treason," which is throwing a lot of people for a loop.

Me, I think Ol' Joe is a traitor for a lot of reasons; the most recent example is his refusal to play by the rules of the game ("If I don't win the primary, I might just go independent, so there!"), and yield to the will of his own constituents (which makes him not only a traitor to the Democratic Party, but a traitor to democracy).

With Condi, the posts and links gave two examples of what was considered traitorous activity. One was appearing with Bush at the NAACP convention. I don't think her presence said anything but that Bush has one black person he listens to and he thinks that's going to cover up how he treats the rest. A shameful act by Condi, but I don't know if it goes to the point of race traitor. Maybe meets your definition.

Not by that one act alone, no. To my way of thinking, it takes a pattern of behavior -- and she's certainly exhibited that (although it would be reasonable to argue that just be being a Republican, she is a traitor to black people, women, poor people, and probably a few other groups I haven't even thought of).

Her appearance with Bush at the NAACP as his "human shield" (why drag your Secretary of State to an NAACP speech unless you're going to talk about foreign policy?) is typical; as I recall, she's run this kind of interference for him in the past, where his audience was heavily African-American (if you want examples, I'll have to go digging for links).

The other point against Condi was her remarks about a racial diversity program at the University of Michigan. Condi said she was against giving advantages to black applicants but was for trying to achieve diversity. Personally, I'm not convinced that one can be done without the other, but I can see where a rational person could truly believe in that approach. I think that's approximately what the Supreme Court had to say about it. If Condi had said that blacks should be kept out of the University of Michigan then I'd say she's a race traitor.

Your last sentence above is a given -- and if it were that easy (if Condi had said that blacks should be kept out of the University of Michigan), then we wouldn't be discussing this at all. But, of course, it's not that cut-and-dried.

First, you're much more charitable about the anti-AA crowd's rationale (which is actually a compliment to you, even if it doesn't sound like one). I'm sure I don't have to tell you (but I'll say it anyway, for the benefit of lurkers) that the "giving advantages" arguments is a classic right-wing talking point. That's how AA opponents frame it, to make white people feel victimized -- when in truth, AA is nothing more than a leveling of the playing field. In practice, nothing is ever perfect, but ideally (and to me) affirmative action means that if you have two applicants, both identically (or equally) qualified, then, all other things being equal, race (or ethnic origin, or gender, or whatever) is the tiebreaker. Believe me, I've tried to see it from the anti-AA point of view, and I just can't see any reasonable argument against it.

Anyway, yes, I still think Condi speaking out against affirmative action is traitorous -- and not necessarily to other African-Americans, but to anyone who can't get a break, no matter what their potential, or how hard they work.

Rice herself comes from extremely humble origins, in a time and place (1950s-60s Birmingham) where segregation was the norm, and -- as I believe the BBC once put it -- racism was so prevalent (and overt; black homes were bombed regularly) Rice herself didn't even "notice" it.

If you take Condi's life story at face value, all you see is a young, poor, black girl who, through brains and grit, became one of the most successful and powerful women in the world. Which is all true, and fine, and admirable -- but it's not the whole story.

Given the basic facts of her life, I would ask her why -- as one who knows the difference an education can make -- she would deny the same advantage she had to anyone else who was disadvantaged but smart and willing to work hard.

The answer, however, seems clear: Despite those very humble origins, Rice wasn't exactly a "maverick"; she's certainly wasn't the first college graduate in her family. Her parents appear to have planned her life from the day she was born; she would go to college not merely to get an education, but to... Wait a second, I can find the quote I'm thinking of...

Here it is: "'My parents were very strategic' Rice told the Post's Dale Russakoff. 'I was going to be so well prepared, and I was going to do all of these things that were revered in white society so well, that I would be armored somehow from racism. I would be able to confront white society on its own terms.'

"Rice says it didn't take a movement or the government to open doors for her. 'Black Americans of my grandparents' ilk had liberated themselves,' she told the Post. The family strategy was to ignore racism, she said: Racism in Birmingham was so routine, 'you ceased to notice its existence.' She was conditioned to succeed: 'My family is third-generation college-educated -- I should've gotten to where I am.'"

(The Condi Rice Version of History)

I don't know about you, but I find her remarks very unsettling. "Ignore racism"? "Confront white society on its own terms" by doing "all of these things that were revered in white society"?

To turn that kind of thinking around is practically beyond me. I cannot imagine the sort of self-loathing it takes to think like that. Oh, I can understand wanting to beat "them" at their own game -- as a woman, I have to live by the rule: "You have to be twice as good as a man in the same job to be considered half as good." But I cannot fathom living up to the very best of my potential in order to be "armored" against bigotry for who and what I am.

Upthread (starting with posts #3), dufrenne disagrees with the "race traitor" label: "The problem with that thinking is that: (a) it denies that she never had to deal with the same problems that millions of blacks had to..."

H2O Man replies, making my point better than I can: "It does not deny that she ever had to deal with issues involving being black in the United States. Quite the opposite: it describes with 100% accuracy her tactics for dealing with those issues."

That's dead-on. Her tactics for dealing with those issues are rooted in not dealing with those issues.

Race just isn't supposed to matter -- Condi has said as much in countless speeches -- and yet her rise from there to here was all carefully calculated, and has had everything to do with race, and becoming so "revered in white society" that she would transcend racism -- not deal with it -- leaving other black people to fend for themselves, when she is in a position to make an immeasurable contribution to fighting racism on a global scale. But she doesn't. She may sound like she does, but her words are worthless compared to her actions.

(She also says her father became a Republican when the Jim Crow-era Democrats refused to register him to vote. Assuming that's the truth, it still begs the question: That's supposed to be a good reason for a presumably intelligent young black woman to become, and remain, a Republican?)

But here's the real kicker, from the same story quoted above: "She told a story about her father's father, John Wesley Sr., a sharecropper who converted from Baptist to Presbyterian to get a free education. 'The Rices' she said, 'have been Presbyterian -- and college-educated -- ever since.'

In other words, her grandfather took advantage of essentially a "faith-based" social program -- which, if you remove "faith-based" from the equation, is exactly the sort of thing Republicans rail against, and what gave Condi herself (directly, I think) her own "unfair advantage" to get where she is today!

So, "it didn't take a movement or the government to open doors for her" is a half-truth at best, and at worst really a pile of B.S. (And that "Black Americans of my grandparents' ilk had liberated themselves" statement really rubs me the wrong way, too; she's distancing herself from the African-American community as a whole.)

I don't think it's much of a stretch to liken affirmative action to the church deal that sent Condi's grandfather to college; I cannot imagine how Condi justifies applauding the former, while arguing against the latter.

As far as how much help to the right is relevant or not relevant I don't get the point. If what the righties do and are told doesn't matter, what does it matter what Condi tells them or says? What does anything matter if we aren't concerned with results? When I say ammunition,I'm talking talking about actual occurrences they can use to convince converts. The middle is skeptical of the RW says. They won't be skeptical anymore if shown proof.

No, no, not for one second do I think that either "what the righties do and are told doesn't matter." It matters, a lot, and we need to be very concerned. I'll expand on that in a moment, but I do want to make that point clear.

I'm saying it doesn't matter whether we give them ammunition or not; they're going to twist and spin and pervert any and every factoid as they like. Look at the swiftboat attack; John Kerry didn't do anything to be ashamed of, and yet now we have half a country believing that he never deserved his Purple Hearts, that he's un-American for tossing his medals, etc., etc.

Where Kerry erred, big-time, was in not standing up to the swiftboaters. And that's where we, as a party, err big-time, all the time: We have the means to show the "skeptical middle" of the RW all the proof in the world, but we're just too timid to do it. (Yes, there's the argument that we should take the high road all the time, but, as that right-wing hack Dr. Phil likes to say, "And how's that been workin' for ya?" Well, it ain't been workin' too good for us so far, has it?)

I don't understand your basic world view of the right wing because on one hand you say we shouldn't worry about them but on the other hand you say we should stand up to them. Why would we stand up to them if we aren't worried about them? How should we stand up to them? I'd like to take them on with boldness and shrewd tactics.

Oh, I think we should worry about the right wing -- it was our decades-long complacency and blissful ignorance that allowed the Radical Right to gain such enormous control, and which still keeps the Democratic Party on its knees today. What I meant by "not worrying" is that I don't think we should ever censor ourselves just because we're worried that the bad guys will use our words against us. They will anyway, no matter how careful we are, no matter how sincere, honest, and above-reproach our words and deeds.

Sure, we have to be responsible and truthful (we can't just "make shit up" like they do) -- but our mistake, as a party, has been the willingness to bend over backward (or bend over forward and take it up the wahoo, if you like), and appease, appease, appease. Lieberman goes far beyond my definition of mere "appeaser"; I'm thinking more of the garden-variety "spineless" types -- Tom Daschle is always the first to come to mind. And it's the garden-variety spineless types who do the most damage to the party, because they're not so obvious as, say, a Zell Miller -- so the damage comes in the form of a slow, creeping erosion, rather than one big blast.

(Dianne Feinstein is another example. She's not as "spineless" as Daschle; she's more of the Lieberman ilk -- Mommy knows best, so screw the constituents. Worse, where Lieberman has a fairly decent voting record, yet does all his damage every time he opens his mouth (or practically French-kisses Dumbya), Di-Fi does her damage with her words and her voting. I can elaborate much more on Di-Fi if you'd like; she's one of my senators, and, IMNSHO, a traitor herself -- not only to Democrats, but to the people of California at large.)

I agree with you -- I'd like to take the right wing on with boldness and shrewd tactics, too. That's why I want more Howard Deans leading the charge, and fewer Tom Daschles. (Well, OK, ideally, I want President Dennis Kucinich and Vice President Ted Kennedy, but that's never going to happen. LOL) I still maintain enough clarity to recognize that -- despite some serious issues I have with him -- Howard Dean is exactly the sort of ballsy, take-no-prisoners Democrat that makes the righties stain their tighty-whities. And we don't have enough Howard Deans; the rank-and-file are too concerned about hanging onto their jobs, and not concerned enough about fulfilling their duty to the people.

But that's on a leadership level. There isn't a lot, beyond making our views as party members known, that we can do to slap the same sort of clarity into the DLC (and at this point, even the DNC), which seems to think that cozying up to the playground bully is going to make the bully stop beating you up every day.

Yes, there are things I do every day as an individual, which are as in-your-face as possible without being directly confrontational. (Hey, I don't want to get my skull cracked open by a freeper; I'll be a lot more useful if I stay alive and functional. Maybe that sounds like a cop-out, but we all do what we are best at doing, and the best I do is write, and make protest graphics for other people, and speak in public every so often. But, as my sister always says, enough about me -- how do you like my new dress? LOL)

My world view says that they are a threat and we ought to act together to defeat them. Not just here at DU but in the whole country. There is such a thing as loyalty and to me an important part of that is doing things that help the left and not doing things that help the other side. Doesn't feeding the right make one a traitor?

Absolutely. But I believe that the appeasers -- the apologists -- are the only ones feeding the right. And, sadly but not surprisingly, it's those of us who call and plead and ache for strong, bold leadership who are labeled "the fringe left" by those same appeasers (are you listening, Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden?), and their followers.

Funny that -- I've always said, my political views have changed very little in the past 30 years, yet where once anyone would have called me a "moderate," now I am part of the "fringe left." I haven't moved left; the party has moved right.

And yes, we need to act together to defeat them. I wish I had the answer to countering the apathy (or perhaps fear) of the American public, but I don't. Maybe we won't have to counter it, once the price of a gallon of gas surpasses the minimum wage, or when the draft is reinstated. But nothing has hit home -- yet -- for most Americans.

I'd agree with saying something the right likes if its true, but this isn't much to take a stand on.

If it's true, sure -- I have no problem with that, and even I, as one of the "fringe left" LOL -- never automatically reject an idea just because it came from the other side. I'm sure there were things I even agreed on with Reagan (although I'd have to think about what those might have been). OK, better example: Nixon. Scum of the earth in many, many ways, but I'm always the first to applaud him for (and this is just one example) his trip to China.

The problem is when Democrats agree with what the "right likes" when it's not true. (Awkwardly-worded sentence, I know, but I think you'll understand what I mean, if I'm understanding what you mean.)

Saying blacks are race traitors is no different than saying whites are race traitors to me. If somebody called me a race traitor because I believe in affirmative action I'd be angry.

I'd be angry, too... although, honestly, I have really, truly never heard the term "race traitor" used for a white person. I'm learning quickly in this thread that the opposite is true for a lot of people; I suspect its meaning has a lot to do with one's region of the country. (Which isn't a slam at the south, southerners! LOL It just means I've only heard it used against black people.)

Anyway, I can't see a white person being called a "race traitor" for being pro-affirmative action, because it doesn't jive with my own definition of "race traitor" -- which is someone who "actively hurts people with whom they share a common history of hardship in order to fulfill some self-serving goal." I'm sure the anti-AA folks see AA as "hurting" white people; I can't help but see it as anything but something that helps us all.

Plus, I also quite naturally tend to use my own gayness as a yardstick when trying to figure out my own definitions. I suppose there must be homophobes who would call straight people who support gay rights traitors ("straight traitors"?) -- but I can only see them as straight people who think I'm as equal as they are. And straights who support gay rights aren't hurting other straight people, but helping gay folks.

So, coming full circle, to me the dividing line is the difference between whether or not you're hurting your own people / group / tribe by contributing your talents to a different people / group / tribe. Or, as you yourself put it so well, "an act (that) is more than just a difference of opinion and becomes a hostile act."

I think Condoleeza Rice more than meets that definition.

Whew! My typing fingers are about to fall off, so I will stop here. But I appreciate this discussion a lot, CN2. I also think we agree a lot more than we disagree.

[creeksneakers2]

181. That was a wonderful post

I learned from it and it gave me much to think about. You must be a wonderful speaker!

[slor]

107. These people are traitors to the entire...

human race. But I too, as an African American, see no problem with calling her a house negro.

[lonestarnot]

113. Beaver chews her wood.

[goclark]

114. That makes her a HOUSE NEGRO of the highest order

I am African American and he called it just like it is....

How I wish I could have been there to hear that young man speak!


Speaking TRUTH to POWER is the only way we can win now.

She is nothing but a HOUSE NEGRO.

[ConsAreLiars]

115. Thanks for reminding DU of historical reality.

The term applies because it reflects the reality we live in. "Quisling" does the same although it is a bit more obscure.

[DarkTirade]

117. Does the gay community have a word for log-cabin repub types?

If so, I haven't heard it.

[Sapphocrat]

129. Yes.

And I fully expect to be flamed for this, but...

Log Cabinites = Uncle Tom's Cabin Republicans / Uncle Tom's Log Cabin Republicans.

*flameproof suit on, and ducking*

Sorry, but that's what we (many/most of us) call them. Nothing to do with race, but everything to do with f'king over their "brethren".


On edit: Stupid typo.

[sgxnk]

125. the term IS offensive and absurd

condi rice is one of the most successful black women...

strike that...

one of the most successful WOMEN ever in this nation

she was the youngest provost of stanford ever

etc. etc. etc.

because she happens to have different political views doesn't make her a "house" anything

it is disgusting not to extend her the dignity to recognize that her views can be different from the majority of blacks, without her "betraying" anybody

i assume that anybody, save evidence to the contrary, comes to their views through conscience and rational thought.

smart, conscientious caring people can, and do come down differently

your post is absurd

[ChairmanAgnostic]

143. 'scuse me, but

her resume and her talents do not match.
Big oil and other powerful groups took her under their wing early on.
They trained, promoted, pushed and paid for her success. She was a figurehead investment. Black, female, conservative, and pliable.
Why do you think they named a tanker after her? Why was she given a fortune to sit on various huge corporate boards? Why was she made provost?
Not because of talent. Not because of her youth, her looks or her brains. No, all of those things came to her as part of the plan to palm her off on America. They succeeded.

What of her talents and her record?
Her job was to gather, analyze and describe threats to this country as head of the NSC. Remember how well she did her job leading up to Septmenber 10th?
Then, she was promoted after Iraq fell, and was given the job to direct and supervise the entire Iraqi reconstruction program. Not once. but twice, the second as SexState. Looking at mountains of corpses growing around Baghdad tells you how well she did in that task.

Also as the top diplomat to the world, she was tasked with the duty to prevent war. Seeing how the Muddle East is in flames and getting worse, well that is just about par for this untalented, inept and incapable idiot.
Your post shows all signs of overexposure to Faux and Fiends.

[sgxnk]

161. i would expect

the classic personal attack that you show in the last line

it has nothing to do with fox, mother jones, the nation, the BBC, or any other outlet

it has to do with the fact that i find it offensive and ridiculous to refer to a black woman, as a "house negro" because she has different political views

period

[CatWoman]

146. no my dear

your post is not only absurd, but sorely delusional and ill informed.

[sgxnk]

162. so please show me

what part of my post is "ill informed"

point out the error(s)

i'll stand by for your keen insight (rolls eyes)

[CatWoman]

171. roll your eyes all you want

but your assertion that my description of her is "offensive" is, IMO, completely ill informed.

Perhaps it is to you, but not to me. In my view, that term adequately describes her.

In MY view.

What PERSONAL accomplishments she has attained don't mean shit to me. There are 10 for every one like her, with the exception that others use their gifts and talents for the good of mankind.

If you are African American, too bad you don't catch my drift. If you are not, I'm not about to let YOU or anyone else tell me how I can view those of my race who are complete losers and want to team up with the current administration to further annihilate us and turn what progress we have made behind.

I'm not about to rehash points I've already made, don't want your eyes to roll out of your head.

I'll end this by saying that reading is fundamental, and you are more than welcome to read thru this thread for additional insight.

[sgxnk]

178. i am not

telling you what you can or can't say.

i am expressing MY opinion

you are expressing yours

i don't think any member of any race is a traitor to their race because their political views differ from what i think they should be

but i am pretty sure we understand each other. we just don't agree

that's kewl with me

[Warren DeMontague]

130. ...one of the only human beings left on the planet

who can stand Bush's company?

[Olney Blue]

136. I've often wondered what she is thinking while she sits there and

listens to him slaughter the English language, and talk in nonlogical gibberish.

[CatWoman]

142. I wonder what goes thru her mind

when she has to explain to the dumbass that there are Black people living in Brazil.....

[Cleita]

145. Wasn't Harry Belafonte criticized early on in the administration

when he called Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell this? He certainly was right.

[madrchsod]

148. yes and god was going to strike him dead.....

last i knew he`s still alive

[madrchsod]

147. i was thinking about that yesterday when

bush brought condo...one of my best friends while i was growing up was black,well he still is, and one time he decided to go to the local black bar in town. after convincing the bouncer and the bartender that i was cool, i got to come in and see what was going on...unfortunally i found out that i was not the dancer i thought i was,i was alright for a white guy but had enough sense not to try and dance there.by bringing condo, who he didn`t realize had no creditability with anyone there, he thought he`d be accepted but george did`t know enough not to try and dance..

[Egalitariat]

151. Who are the traitors of the white race?****

nm

[CatWoman]

152. the entire Bush administration

[Egalitariat]

157. Do you think they should be doing MORE for the white race?

I'd hardly say THEY had betrayed their race. Their country maybe, but not their race.

[CatWoman]

158. both their country AND their race

how could they be helping their race? whites are suffering as much as blacks under this administration.

However, whites voters were not targeted for vote fraud.

[WillyT]

160. So... "Auntie Thomasina" Isn't Appropriate ???

:hide::scared::wow::scared::hide:

:loveya:

[CatWoman]

170. ROFL!!!

:hi:

:rofl:

[retread]

164. I prefer the term "Bush Family Hood Ornament." n/t

[MaraJade]

166. Condi is a "House Negro. . ."

Just like the "house Negroes" of old, she erroneously thinks that
"Massa likes her," and so she continues to do his bidding without
a thought to the people that will be hurt or betrayed in the process.

In fact, the vast majority of blacks in the Repuke party are just like
Condi, perfectly content in their lives and throroughly convinced that
they have some special place in the old Massah's heart.

Stupid people! One hint of disagreement, and they will find themselves
sold right down the river with the rest of us.

And before you get on me about being racist--I too am a black woman. It is just that I cannot tolerate the minstrel show that is Rice and Thomas
et. al. in the government.

[sueragingroz]

167. I know of an epithet that is used in the Entertainment Industry

My oldest and dearest friend is an actor/writer/producer/Drag Queen.

When he was picking up "day work" for the myriad film productions that were ongoing in Toronto in the '90's (because the Canadian dollar was so low and because our locals were getting pretty good at making movies)... the "day workers" - ie those that would do bit parts or walk-ons for small dollars per day, would be referred to as Ice-N____ (you can fill in the blank) by their American counterparts because it was felt that they were stealing American jobs.

I'm not going to pass judgement on where films should or should not be made.

Ok... maybe I will....

I lived in downtown Toronto for most of the '90's and it was a pain in the butt dealing with the non stop production that snarled traffic, shone bright lights in my window at night etc etc... and I, for one, am thrilled that the CDN dollar has rebounded and tempered the industry somewhat...

[Union Label]

182. I don't care who it is you are referring to

that term is racist and very demeaning. And I am insulted.

[Bridget Burke]

183. If you find "House Negro" demeaning....

Be glad you don't know the original wording of the phrase.

[CatWoman]

185. tough shit.

[Union Label]

197. Why do you need to be nasty

Because I'm insulted by the very nasty term that YOU used.

[ulysses]

184. people are just afraid

that you'll sic the NAACP on them. :D

[CatWoman]

186. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

:rofl:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

187. I don't see how it's possible to be a traitor to a race.

A traitor is someone who betrays a cause or organisation they have given their allegiance to. As such, being a "traitor to one's race" makes no sense for two reasons: firstly, because a race is not a cause, an organisation, an ideology or anything else one can have an allegiance to; secondly, because no-one volunteers for a race - even if "being white" was a cause and I was working against it, I wouldn't be a traitor unless I was somehow white voluntarily, rather than be accident of birth the way it actually happens.

"Working against the interests of the majority of people of one's race" is a meaningful allegation, but doing so is no worse and no better than working against the interests of a majority of people of another race - a race is not something one owes any allegiance to.

Condoleeza Rice may be doing bad things, but her skin colour is entirely irrelevant.

[goclark]

200. I am African American and her color is relevant to me and to my people

We did not hang from trees and wade in Water for one of our own to not stand up for us when there are Civil Rights issue that she could support all over the globe.


She is a HOUSE NEGRO and everyone of my people that I discussed the "heckler" with said, " Fantastic! That is exactly what she is ~ a traitor to our people and a kiss up to the White Man in the White House."

It IS about color as far as we are concerned.


"Condoleeza Rice may be doing bad things, but her skin colour is entirely irrelevant"

[Donald Ian Rankin]

202. I think that that's an essentially racist attitude.

I think that the position that African-Americans should be held to different standards to other races is very clearly both racist and discriminatory.

You haven't addressed either of my points - that a race isn't something one can owe allegiance to, or that even if it was one would only have a duty of allegiance to it if one had first voluntarily given such allegiance. Your rhetoric may be stirring, but it doesn't actually mean anything.

I very much doubt you've ever been hanged from a tree, unless you're posting post mortem; have you ever waded in Water? Even if you have, it doesn't put any moral obligation on anyone except those who made you do it.

It may be about colour "as far as you are concerned", but unless you can make a case that it *should* be "about colour" (what does that phrase mean? Do you mean that the standards someone should be held to are different depending on their skin colour?), which you have not done, then that is only relevant when discussing your personal psychology, not the actual ethics of the issue.

[goclark]

204. Unless you are African American .you don't speak for me

You may speak for YOU but you do not speak for ME.

I stand by my statement.

[CatWoman]

206. and I fully support you

perhaps, GoClark, after all, it really is a "black thang"

[goclark]

208. Yes! Slavery ended on paper in 1865

so I don't take kindly to anyone trying to tell me how to THINK or ACT.

It is a "black thang." and the beauty of it is that we don't give a -- what anybody else thinks about it. :yourock:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

212. Tell me,

If you don't take kindly to people disagreeing with you (which is what "telling you what to think" actually means, stripped of the high-sounding euphemism), and you're not willing to defend your positions, what is the point of posting to a *discussion* forum? Surely the whole point is to try and convince people who disagree with you that they're wrong, and to check that you're not, not just to indulge in meaningless posturing like this?

Slavery, in case the difference isn't apparent to you, involves trying to *compel* someone to think or act in a certain way. *Advising* them to do so has nothing whatsoever in common with it.

[goclark]

216. You can post anything you want to, I could care less

A forum is for me to post MY life experiences and for you to post your life experiences.

I am not trying to change your opinion ~ something tells me that is not possible. :)

Keep thinking your thoughts but you will never tell me how to be an African American in 2006 or any other year for that matter.

[stepnw1f]

218. Bravo... good for You

nice come back.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

223. What you want it a blog, then.

This is a forum for the discussion of politics; in this case, for the discussion of whether or not Ms Rice is a "race traitor". That has nothing to do with either of our "life experiences".

I'm not trying to tell you how to be an African American in 2006. I'm trying to tell you that Condoleeza Rice is not a "race traitor", and indeed that no such thing exists. I'm slightly bewildered as to how you think the two relate.

[goclark]

233. You don't tell me where I need to post! The nerve of you

I have posted here for many a day and I will keep posting where ever I want to.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

207. Does that mean anything?

As far as I can see, it's not an argument in support of your position, it's just a refusal to listen to arguments against it.

Would I be able to speak for you if I *were* African American?


Your statement is, as I've said, a racist one.

If you want to stand by it, I can't stop you.

[CatWoman]

209. oh well

racist is as racist does.......

I feel the same way about Colin Powell and Ken Blackwell.

Does that mean that I'm a triple racist?

I hit the trifecta!!!!

[ecstatic]

189. I don't think that term is appropriate for Condi

I see her as a neocon, and no more a race traitor than Bush or Cheney. She acknowledges that she is a black woman. She has supported affirmative action and acknowledged that she would not be where she is were it not for it (not because she is unqualified, but because of racism that favors whites for certain positions). Clarence Thomas is an uncle tom, imo.

[CatWoman]

192. she, like Thomas, supported it when it helped THEM

and now they both want to dismantle it.

[OxQQme]

203. I keep hoping

that Condi is deeply undercover and will eventually 'out' the Massah's vile deeds.
Perhaps even dragging 'him', in chains, to the whipping block in the town square.
Every person has a spark of good in them.
But I've not seen in in her yet.

[goclark]

205. Thank you CatWoman!

[ComerPerro]

199. I think the term is "Good Conservative"

[noonwitch]

201. As a white person, I choose not to use loaded language

I understand your point of view, CW, and I don't criticize your use of such terms, but for me to use them changes the meaning.

[goclark]

210. Smart attitude!

That is,IMO, truly multicultural understanding. I mean that sincerely.

The "heckler" could say that because he was African American.

If a White person had said that to Condi, it would take off in another direction.


It was a remark that, IMO, only a Black Person should say to another Black Person ~ it is US communicating to US.

And Condi deserved to hear it FROM one of US.

[stepnw1f]

219. Well... I Won't Use the term

since I am caucasian... but you have at it, because I agree she's a traitor to this country.

[Spinoza]

221. If every race

has its "traitors" (WHO DECIDES? and what about 'I may hate and disagree with your opinions, but I will defend to the death your right to utter them') and a NAME for its traitors then what exactly is the name for a 'traitor' to the white race. I am sure neo-Nazi types and white supremacists could respond but anyone else?

[CatWoman]

227. this is too easy: REPUBLICANS

That's the word for the day, boys and girls.

[Spinoza]

229. Clever, but no real answer.

EOM

[CatWoman]

232. hell, what do you want from "me"???

cleverness aside.

sometimes a traitor is just a traitor or just a traitor.

what was Benedict Arnold called? The Rosenbergs?

[RedStateShame]

224. And the desire to betray one's own is known as...

Joe-mentum.

[goclark]

225. Perfect example!

I'll never be convinced that he didn't do a number on us in 2000.

[savemefromdumbya]

234. beginning to wonder that also

[opihimoimoi]

235. Condi is a FRAUD...she is no StatesPerson....Never was a good

SECURITY ADVISOR....

House Negro? Aunty Condi?

In every sense of the term.

She is pathological just as her boss...which kinda explains things...all those people in New Orleans suffered without food/water/
toilet paper while she shopped for freaking shoes? Damn......that really showed how she thinks of poor Americans.

Any Black in her position woulda been down there with them peeps...suffering along with them.

[jaysunb]

237. Good post Kitty !!

How many years have we been here watching as our " supposedly " enlightened bretheren out themselves.....:evilfrown:

[CatWoman]

240. *sigh*

JB,

and I just keep on trying, don't I? :shrug:

[Catherine Vincent]

238. How in the heck did I miss this thread?

Will comment later.