Does it seem like Israel is hesitating while waiting for Bush to demand...

[NNN0LHI]

...a cease fire before they are forced to invade Lebanon which they really don't want to do? Which would allow for a face saving retreat.

But that demand from Bush is not forthcoming as Israel expected it would be?

Could Bush and his minions be leaving Israel hanging out to dry here?

Bush did always seem cozier with the Saudis than he did with the Israelis.

Just saying.

Don

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Um, no.

[Bush_MUST_Go]

2. It's more likely they are giving civilians a chance to evacuate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Um, no.

[Mass]

7. Yes, we know. Israel is evil. They like killing civilians and would do

that for their breakfast.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. They blew up civilian evacuation routes.

So it seems they don't particularly care about civilian evacuations.

[everythingsxen]

12. In blowing up civilian evacuation routes...

by which I assume you mean the highway to Damascus, they also severely reduced Syria/Iran's ability to assist Hezbollah.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Yeah, that was the argument.

And George Bush attacked Iraq because they were threatening us with their WMDs.

[everythingsxen]

17. Interestingly...

Syria and Iran both admit to arming and funding Hezbollah, Iran is even sending (have sent?) volunteers to help "fight the evil zionists"; Israel blows up the easiest way for more support for Hezbollah to arrive, and yet according to you, Israel is lying. Even though as I just pointed out, Syria and Iran are assisting Hezbollah.

How is Israel blowing up a highway that could (and would) be used to funnel in more troops and equipment even comparable to Bush's lies about WMD?

I guess you just really know a lot about Israel. Are you a member of the Knesset? Maybe you are a high ranking IDF member. Tell me more of what you know about Israel.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. Yes, and the U.S. arms and funds Israel.

I'm not Knesset nor IDF. I'm not CIA either, but I know the U.S. lied about WMDs.

[everythingsxen]

20. Ok. So then you admit that Israel is not lying about blowing up

the Highway. You also admit that Iran and Syria back Hezbollah.

So once again, what does Bush lying about WMD in Iraq have to do with Israel cutting off support to it's enemy?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. I'm not admiting half the things you say I'm not admiting.

[everythingsxen]

28. Another dodge.

So essentially your entire position of opposition to Israel is "Israel is evil because I say so".

[Zhade]

21. Yeah, yeah, stop pointing out the facts.

The Israel-can-do-no-wrong-even-as-it-murders-innocent-civilians crowd is getting desperate as their arguments are consistently refuted. Do you want to provoke them?

:evilgrin:

[Mass]

25. Except I have criticized Israel many times these last few weeks.

I have also criticized Bush many times about this fiasco, though some here are so busy they seem ready to give Bush a pass on his intentions.

[everythingsxen]

32. I have seen no facts presented at all...

and the Israel-must-be-destroyed-for-daring-to-defend-itself crowd has yet to make a viable argument that doesn't consist of "Israel is evil. Israel murders children. Israel targets civilians." repeat that 10 times and you suddenly have a perfect replica of the average Israel haters post.

Not one shred of evidence is offered, nor can any of you even conceive of the possibility that Israel has a right to exist.

As far as I know, none of you is on the front lines actually fighting (although if you were I can guess which side you would be on) so none of you is in a position to make any sanctimonious declarations of Israel's guilt.

I would point out that Israel is fighting enemies who have sworn to wipe out Israel. The general rhetoric of figures such as the Iranian president, various figures in Syrian and Hezbollah seems to indicate that wiping out Israel means to exterminate the Jewish people physically.

[Zhade]

33. Right, because indiscriminate bombing of innocent Lebanese is "defense".

You lost me there, palooka.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Whats the hold up then?

Maybe they are waiting until the planets are in alignment?

Don

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. Build-ups take time.

There's a lot of logistics involved.

[Mass]

6. I have been wondering if Israel was not hoping for Bush to ask for a

ceasefire and found themselves trapped because he did not move.

Not that they should have started anyway, but I have read there was a lot of resistance both in the Israeli army and in the civil population for such an invasion, probably because they remember the previous time.

I also believe that moderate Arab states (Saudis, Jordan, Emirates, ...) are happy to see Israel do their dirty work by fighting Hezbollah. They are afraid that radical Islam would take their power as well. Of course, Lebanon cannot agree right now because the war is killing its civilians, though.

[Spazito]

9. Nope, it is the opposite, imo...

They waited so Israel could finish the final plans for the invasion of Lebanon which, if the LBN story is accurate, it is to happen tonight. They want Israel to invade Lebanon, they support Israel invading Lebanon, that's why they couldn't give a date for the arrival of Queen condi. They got the word from Israel as to the date of the invasion and could then give condi's trip date as Sunday once Israel is in full invasion mode. They will not be working to stop the invasion, they will be working to stop any action being taken by others to stop it.

[NNN0LHI]

11. They (Bush) want Israel to invade Lebanon...

...fits into my theory too. Maybe Israel doesn't want to. They have had bad experiences in Lebanon in the past.

Don

[Spazito]

14. That has been an unresolved question in my mind, that being your

point about Israel's previous failure when they occupied Lebanon and, from outward appearances, the dynamics have not changed from then to now, why would they re-invade. I have even posed that question in other threads but have yet to receive an answer. I can only posit the thought that the agenda for this invasion is different given the bush cabal's thirst to bring Iran and Syria into this. If the agenda, the end goal is different then the dynamics may well have changed.

Edited to correct typo.

[Zhade]

23. Well, of course - getting your ass beaten and driven out...

...tends to make a country nervous about re-invading the same country.

[CoffeeCat]

15. I really don't get this...

I'm trying my best to understand the dynamics and politics here.

However, if Israel invades Lebanon, that will only exacerbate this mess. Let's assume that Condi will be overseas--attempting to broker peace. She openly stated that she is going to quell the conflict. Blair even said (as Bush was smacking his dinner) that "Condi must succeed."

If Condi goes over there, in a very visible attempt to broker peace, and all hell breaks loose---doesn't this make the US look like jerks? Ineffectual, irrelevant jerks? Condi won't succeed then. We'll look like impotent fools who made no difference.

If a ground invasion happens, I'm assuming that Lebanon will only fire back more aggressively--hence an escalation in violence and more civilians kills. Furthermore, we still have at least 20,000 Americans over there. It's likely that an escalation could kill many people from other countries--including the US. More bad news for BushCo and Condi's diplomatic skills.

I'm assuming that BushCo and Israel are working together. I assume they're on the same page. I'm also assuming that Israel would help BushCo to look good, and that they would go so far as to move toward peace--to help BushCo look like they've got some skills.

Am I wrong? Maybe I'm missing something.

[Mass]

16. Yes, that Bush does not want peace. Rice has been saying as much

today.

[Spazito]

19. Mass has responded as I would, I would only add...

Everyone of the bush cabal, from bush on down, have vociferously spoken against a cease-fire and continue to do so. condi's role is NOT to broker a cease-fire, it is to ensure one does NOT happen until either the end goal, as agreed upon between Israel and the US, is achieved or it is such a disaster they will have to act, while pretending, all the while, they have been working toward a "suitable" resolution.

[CoffeeCat]

27. Then Condi, Junior, etc are TOTAL IDIOTS...

If Condi is going over there to continue her back-door deals and scheming with Israel, and if this scheming includes escalating this situation-----then this administration loses. Big time!!

They can warmonger and plot behind closed doors all they want. They will lose SO BIG and SO BAD. Everyone is watching Condi and BushCo on this. They want the violence stopped and they don't want the US fighting in this mess.

If Condi fails--and if this exacerbates--then this will be a massive failure of epic proportions for this administration.

If this is what they are doing---then they are digging their own graves.

[Spazito]

30. No argument from me on your points!

This is their last, "best" chance to do regime change in the middle east because they know they may well lose control of the House and the Senate after mid-terms hence the timing. The plan has always been there, imo, they just thought they would have more time to accomplish it but Iraq didn't come out like they fantasized and has cost them crucial votes to keep their power, imo.

[goclark]

24. When Condi "succeeds" she will then be in position for President in 08

IMO and in their sick minds.

[rzemanfl]

10. They will tell him when to demand a ceasefire. n/t

[Mass]

26. More likely it goes the other way around. Bush will tell them when to ask

[rzemanfl]

29. Who will tell Bush when to ask? He can't ask for a potty break

without help.

[Imagevision]

31. Kiddin? even Condi doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground on this

plus she's a broad, maybe we could send Jessica Simson and throw a truce/concert
it will end up being equally as strong or weak as what Condi results will be.

Bush low numbers, election going bad, Iraq in civil war, yeah, if I was Bush I'd tell israel to jusdt keep on defending yourself...I'm behind you the whole way...