Stop blaming Israel!

[Sensitivity]

Israel's actions are principally a function of U.S. foreign policy.

NeoCon dogma regarding the need to destroy Hezbollah provided the basis of Israel's
reaction to Hezbollah capture of soldiers.

Only with the U.S. green light could Israel bomb lebanon's infrastructure.

It is we who are rushing shipments of missiles and bombs to the frontlines.

It is clear from Rice that Israel is effectively a puppet of U.S. policy in its current engagement.

We need to look to ourselves. What is it about our system that allows us to think
of the Lebanese the way we do. Why do we find it acceptable to destroy another people.

[xultar]

1. I agree sort of...but then you'll get those who say that Israel

doesn't need US permission to protect themselves in a way that they see fit.

Don't get me wrong I believe that there are plenty war monger heads of states on all sides of this circle of disaster.

[BillZBubb]

4. But they do need US dollars and weapons to keep it up.

The Israelis don't make major moves without tacit approval from the US.

[xultar]

7. I agree with that. There are warmongers on all sides. I like the Lebonese

PM though. I don't think he is a warmonger. We backed him and that made him incapable of contolling the south Lebanon. That is our fault not his.

[Poll_Blind]

2. What makes you believe that the U.S. green-ligted this with ANYTHING but..

...silence?

PB

[cali]

8. Yeah, I agree with

you. I don't see it the way the OP does. Israel is culpable for bombing Lebanon. The U.S. is complicit due to its unbalanced policies in the mideast, including arms sales to Israel, but I don't see bushco as running Israeli policy directly in any way.

[Toots]

11. So you think the Bush* Admistration was surprised at this action?

I think there are a lot of very naive people around here. What was that meeting with Israel about last month do you believe?

[Sensitivity]

24. Israel cannot act without U.S. approval. We need to think clearly.

What is the U.S. political or geopolitical strategy behind this war.

[Sensitivity]

10. Lebanon was a bush democracy poster-boy -- Israel would have gotten

permission to bomb Beruit at the highest level or else they an aid-ban would be
triggered because of the legal constraints on the use of U.S. military hardware.

What Israel is doing requires U.S. government agreement to be legal.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Trigger an aid-ban to Israel. That's preposterous. You have no idea...

...how much influence is exerted on the President, the Senate and House to keep that money flowing. There is no force on earth strong enough to stop that aid from flowing. Killing 500, 1,000, 10,000 innocent Lebanese civilians would not so much as ruffle the hair on that aid money.

Your "or else" is not realistic. Again, you are not fully aware of the amount of pressure to deliver those funds.

PB

[Sensitivity]

21. Pressure is from American People who support Israel because

they see Israel as acting in their interest. In the past Reagan cut aid. Carter and Bush 1 both threatened to cut aid.

I can happen if it is U.S. policy.

[Poll_Blind]

23. I'm dubious of that- can you provide a cite for Reagan cutting aid?

Something longer than a week, I'm assuming?

PB

[Strelnikov_]

31. IMHO, As A Long Standing Ally In The Region, Israel Was Briefed

a few years ago regarding the Neocon Administrations intent to launch a major air assault against Iran. This may have even been initiated by Israel, considering the way the new hard line Iranian government has been spouting off.

And could you blame them? The Neocon operation in Iraq facilitates the rise of these hard liners to power, and said Neocons continue poking them with a stick.

Israel, recognizing the threat Hezbollah would be once the region erupted following this air assault due to Hezbollah's manpower and armament resources, developed the plan that we now see unfolding.

In a May meeting with Cheney, Olmert was briefed that the long planned air assault on Iran was highly probable within the next six months. The attack on the soldiers either enraged Olmert into action, or provided the casus belli. Either way, same result.

I see Israel as simply taking preemptive defensive measures against the firestorm that will soon engulf the Middle East and gulf region.

This chain of events was set in motion the day the Neocons decided to invade Iraq.


It did not have to be this way. If the Neocons had:

1) Concentrated on Afghanistan and finished the job of stabilizing that region.

2) Engaged Iran and Syria politically and economically following 9/11. The lines of communication were open.

3) Placed the resources of the US behind stabilization of Lebanon (including dismantling of militias) and resolution of the P/I conflict.
Imagine how far the money spent on Iraq would have gone to jump-starting a viable Palestinian State and reconstruction of Lebanon.

The outcome could have been quite different.

[ixion]

3. BS... Israel is a rogue state. It doesn't matter who pulls the strings

IMO.

[malaise]

6. Bingo n/t

[cali]

9. I keep seeing that

meaningless meme. What do you mean by a 'rogue state'? What does it entail to be one? What do you suggest be done about it?
Is the U.S. a rogue state?

[jonnyblitz]

12. "rogue" is an understatement at this point. nt

[truth2power]

18. You're right, Ixion. Israel is a rogue state, as is the US. n/t

[Lerkfish]

5. what's with this "we" crap? not in MY name do the neocons do this.

[JuniperLea]

34. Unfortunately, it is in your name

And mine.

[Lerkfish]

37. right, but I mean there's nothing I did to bring it about, so I refuse to

take even token responsibility for those war criminal's actions.

[JuniperLea]

39. Lucky you

I feel guilty because I didn't stop them. It just seems like there should have been something more we could have done.

[Lerkfish]

41. short of something I can't mention on this board, I'm at a loss

to come up with what more I could have done, personally, within my own particular situation. I voted against them every time and other things. Beyond that, "stopping" them becomes problematic.

[still_one]

13. Make no mistake about Hezbolah's intentions

It is for the destruction of Israel, and of Jews

..."a speech delivered by Hassan Nasrallah, in which he said, "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli."

"Larry Johnson, a former counterterrorism official in the Clinton State Department, once told me, "There's a fundamental view here of the Jew as subhuman. Hezbollah is the direct ideological heir of the Nazis."

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?021014fa_fact4

[NNN0LHI]

43. Every time someone uses the phrase "Make no mistake" I get nervous

:scared:




http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=tus&q=Make+no+mistake%2Bbush&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

Results 1 - 10 of about 37,200,000 for Make no mistake+bush. (0.07 seconds)

News results for Make no mistake+bush - View today's top stories
Look Ma, No Script: What That Says About Me - New York Times - 19 hours ago





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[izzie]

14. I think it is Bush my self.

With out out aid they would have to spend their own money and on top of that we do not have to make arms for the whole world. I think Bush is in back of this. Look at a map and see just where we have been putting in bases and you will see this will give us the final deal. A great port on Med. sea plus open the Red sea. Saudi is where we want it and we have Iran fenced in. Jordan will not fight if I recall it is pretty mild country. And once the Islamic world sees what has happened all hell will brake out.

[leesa]

15. The Neocons are in both the US and in Israeli government. They share the

blame.

[Poppyseedman]

16. So you are saying

if Israel ignored their puppet masters in Washington, stopped asking for their soldiers return,then Hezbollah would recognize Israel no longer is taking orders from the bush/cheney/rice neocon cabal and return the two soldiers and stop shelling northern Israel?

I thought so.:eyes:

[Sensitivity]

19. Hezbollah has been little more than an irritance to Israel in the past.

There recent, reckless, action was clearly in sympathy with the Palestinians being
killed in Gaza. Israel would not be engaging in the destruction of the Hamas government without Washington approval.

[alarimer]

20. You have a point

they are doing OUR bidding no doubt with weapons supplied by us. Gotta keep that oil flowing.

[pberq]

22. Good point

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_thepen_060721_a_tale_of_two_resolu.htm

<snip>
The Bush administration, who is green lighting Israel's every action, is manipulating public opinion at home to escalate this into a nuclear first strike on Iran, to try to regain the dominance lost in Iraq.

Until you understand this nothing else will make sense.

And in this they have the willing cooperation of Hezbollah and their supporters, who believe they will win the whole game if we do so, and they have our misadventure in Iraq to give them confidence.

They are both wrong. Such a conflagration in the Middle East will end human civilization as we have previously known it. BOTH sides will exchange nuclear weapons strikes. The restraint which has kept the nuclear monster in check since 1945 will be vaporized. Perhaps the other side will only be able to muster dirty bombs, or perhaps a revolution in Pakistan will put fully operational warheads in the hands of Islamic militants at once, and this is assuming they have not already acquired some of the many loose nukes out there, or maybe it will take them a while longer to acquire them. But it will happen.

That is all unless we find a way to break the cycle of revenge and insanity.

[Neverarepublican]

25. Me thinks that the weakening of Hezbollah is an important step before the

attack on Iran.

[Sensitivity]

26. U.S. Policy view is that Hezbollah was a terror threat checking their

efforts to pressure Iran. U.S. views Hezbollah as potentially more effective
than Al Qaeda and willing to act in sympathy with Iran if U.S. bombed Iran's
nuclear R&D.

[Strelnikov_]

30. I Agree. Iran Appears To Be The 'November Surprise' Being Prepared

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1702383#1702623

[pberq]

32. Who says this will weaken Hezbollah?

It's more likely to increase Hezbollah's strength.

However, in either case, they will have the excuse to attack Iran.

[treestar]

40. Makes a person cynical, doesn't it?

Yet Bushco is getting stupid. The US is getting tired of the constant "war." Bush is like a little kid who can't finish what he started. We are all mired up in Iraq and he thinks he can get votes for his party in November by adding to that burden with a war in Iran?

Bush really is losing it.

[Sensitivity]

27. This War may have more to do with November that we think.

[chill_wind]

28. It is a very mutual exercise. A mutual project. With a long history.

Timeline Project: The use of Islamist militants by American and Israeli militarists - The War in Afghanistan to September 11 and beyond
Open-Content project managed by Timothy Howell

Just some highlights. See the link for far fuller context at the end and the complete annotation --supporting text with the media citations under each of these events.

July 1954: Israel Commits Bombing Attacks in Egypt, Tries to Blame Muslim Brotherhood

1967-2001: Israel Provides Support to Militant Islamic Groups in the West Bank and Gaza

1973-1978: With Israel’s support, Ahmed Yassin Forms Islamist Organizations in the West Bank and Gaza

1973-1982: Israel and Jordan Support Muslim Brotherhood Terrorism Against Syria

October 1973: Close Relationship Evolves between Rep. Charlie Wilson and Israeli

1977-1981: The Nationalities Working Group Advocates Using Militant Islam Against Soviet Union

March 1978: Congressional Staffer Offers Israeli Classified Material

1979: Meeting Held in Turkey Discussing US-Turkey Alliance

1979-1990s: Wohlstetter and Perle Promote Close US-Turkey Alliance

March 1980: Richard Perle Leaves Position as Senate Aide, Becomes Private Consultant

September 1980: Pro-American Military Coup Takes Place in Turkey

Early 1981: Richard Perle Assists Reagan’s Transition Team

March 1981: Richard Perle Receives Large Sum from Israeli Arms Dealers

April 1981: Richard Perle Wants Stephen Bryen to be his Assistant

January 1982: Asst. Defense Secr. Richard Perle Advocates on Behalf of Former Client

(1982): Israeli Zvi Rafiah Leaves Job in Washington for Position at Israeli Defense Firm

February 1982: Article in Israeli Journal Says Israel Should Exploit Internal Tensions of Arab States

The winter issue of Kivunim, a “A Journal for Judaism and Zionism,” publishes “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties” by Oded Yinon. The paper, published in Hebrew, rejects the idea that Israel should carry through with the Camp David accords and seek peace. Instead, Yinon suggests that the Arab States should be destroyed from within by exploiting their internal religious and ethnic tensions: Lebanon.”

(snip)




June 1982: After Israeli Invasion of Lebanon, Rep. Charlie Wilson Praises Israel

1983: Rep. Charlie Wilson Brokers Weapons Sale Between Pakistan and Israel

1984-1989: Israeli Intelligence Officer Supplies Arms to Iran

1986: Richard Perle Negotiates Defense Agreement with Turkey

1986: American Jewish Congress Delegation Visits Turkey

1987-2004: Richard Perle Serves as Member of Defense Policy Board

1987: Ahmed Yassin forms Hamas with the support of Israeli intelligence

April 1987-1994: Richard Perle Travels to Turkey and Negotiates Large Contract for Firm He Helped Start

April 1987: Richard Perle Resigns as Assistant Secretary of Defense, But Remains on Defense Policy Board

(1992-1995): Israeli and Pakistani Diplomats Have Secret Meetings in Washington

Winter 1995: Article Denounces Pro-Islamist Perspectives in Academia

September 11, 1998: PNAC Calls on Clinton To Take ‘Decisive Action’ Against Milosevic

1999: US NGO Formed to Promote Peace in Chechnya

May 2000: Conservative Think Tank Calls on US to End Syrian Influence in Lebanon

February 2001: Saudi Prince Tells Powell US Needs to Ease Sanctions on Iraq

July 2001: Bush Sr. Assures Crown Prince Abdullah that Bush Jr.’s ‘Heart Is in Right Place’

August 2001: Crown Prince Abdullah Warns Bush Against Pro-Israeli Stance in Letter


September 2001: Army School Produces Plan for Mid-east Peacekeeping Mission; Says Mossad Can Target US Forces

October 10, 2001: Two Israelis Are Detained in Mexican Legislature Building after Behaving Suspiciously and Found To Be Carrying Arms

June 2003: Retired Gen. Schoomaker Appointed Army Chief of Staff

Donald Rumsfeld selects retired Gen. Peter J. Schoomaker as the Army’s chief of staff, bypassing several highly qualified active generals. Schoomaker is the general who failed to locate bin Laden during the Clinton administration (see December 23, 1998).

March 2005: Israel Honors People Involved in Lavon Affair

Early June 2005: US Intelligence Find Evidence of Mossad or CIA Support For Insurgents in Iraq

US Intelligence officers report that some of the insurgents in Iraq are using recent-model Beretta 02 pistols that have no serial numbers. The numbers have not been removed; the guns came off a production line with no number. “Analysts suggest the lack of serial numbers indicates that the weapons were intended for intelligence operations or terrorist cells with substantial government backing. Analysts speculate that these guns are probably from either Mossad or the CIA. Analysts speculate that agent provocateurs may be using the untraceable weapons even as US authorities use insurgent attacks against civilians as evidence of the illegitimacy of the resistance.” --

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=western_support_for_islamic_militancy&islamic_militancy_general_topic_areas=islamic_militancy_israeliPartisans

[Sensitivity]

29. If U.S. public could not figure Bush/Rove, how will they figure-out this.

[chill_wind]

33. True. That's why we keep hearing the constant invocations

of so-called "widespread American support", when in reality it seems much more the case of wide-spread obliviousness of the underpinnings of historical and present foreign policy.

[DistressedAmerican]

35. Sorry. It Takes Two For This Tango.

One does notdeserve a pass because of the other. Not buying what you are selling here.

[Sensitivity]

36. The bombs are U.S. so is the policy of defining Hezbollah as Terrorists

[edhopper]

38. I have a rash

on my left butt cheek. I blame Israel for it.

[Sensitivity]

42. Now U.S. role in planning action is outed in SF Chronicle!

The San Francisco Chronicle now reporting "Action" against Hezbollah was planned with U.S.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21...

More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail. Under the ground rules of the briefings, the officer could not be identified.

In his talks, the officer described a three-week campaign: The first week concentrated on destroying Hezbollah's heavier long-range (rockets), bombing its command-and-control centers, and disrupting transportation and communication arteries. In the second week, the focus shifted to attacks on individual sites of rocket launchers or weapons stores. In the third week, ground forces in large numbers would be introduced, but only in order to knock out targets discovered during reconnaissance missions as the campaign unfolded. There was no plan, according to this scenario, to reoccupy southern Lebanon on a long-term basis.