Lots Of Criticism Of Israel In This War That's Started

[SPKrazy]

but not a lot of solutions, alternatives, etc.

Diplomacy sounds nice, however over the last 6 years, when the UN, and the Lebanese government were supposed to be dealing with Hezbollah through diplomatic means, while the Israelis sat on their hands and continued to be attacked by terrorists, killing Israeli citizens. Then kidnapping their soldiers, firing rockets etc.

What would you have Israel do instead?

They are taking out the infrastructure that supports Hezbollah. Eliminating the methods that Iran and Syria can supply Hezbollah easily. Disrupting Hezbollah's command and communications. Going after their weapons caches. Going after their leadership.

Unfortunately they have killed a few hundred Lebanese that may or may not be supporters of Hezbollah (hard to tell since they were killed in attacks on Hezbollah strongholds) The Israelis have papered the areas they have since attacked with leaflets that tell the Lebanese to leave the area, or stay at their own peril.

Many stay, and many are killed. No one likes that to my knowledge (except maybe a freeper who thinks that is what they should be doing in the first place)

So again, I ask for alternatives to this action that Israel has taken to prevent Lebanon from becoming a Hezbollah controlled country more than it already is.

[wakeme2008]

1. This has NOTHING to do about Hezbollah... Israel and Bush

want a war with Syria and Iran and they thought S/I would come to the defence of Hezbollah and then they could attack their REAL targets... So far S/I has not taken the bait.

[Strelnikov_]

43. Agree. This Has Everything To Do With The Pending Attack On Iran

IMHO, the current hostilities are the opening act in the action against Iran.

Yes, Hezbollah attacked a patrol, killed some soldiers, fired some rockets. A significant response was called for.

That said, the scope of the current operation was baffling to me earlier this week. Knocking out bridges, the major airport, extensive bombing of infrastructure. It was becoming apparent that the goal of this operation was to severely degrade or eliminate Hezbollah as a fighting force.

But why undertake an operation of this scope so suddenly? Would not a more limited response, followed by a demand that Hezbollah be disarmed, been a more politically expedient course prior to an operation of this scale?

Every report I have read regarding military action against Iran notes Hezbollah actions against Israel as one of the major retaliatory threats.

In my opinion, this operation has been planned for a while as a necessary precursor to an attack on Iran. Any other approach to dealing with Hezbollah would have taken too long, with uncertain results. If you know an 'enemy' is going to attack, as Hezbollah would surely do after a massive aerial attack on Iran, military doctrine is to strike first.

The attack on the Israeli soldiers enraged Olmert and he simply moved up the schedule. Or was the attack the long awaited casus belli?

Following is an article that states that the plan unfolding before us was finalized over a year ago. About the time the Neocons started sabre rattling again over Iran.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we're seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it's been simulated and rehearsed across the board."

In his talks, the officer described a three-week campaign: The first week concentrated on destroying Hezbollah's heavier long-range missiles, bombing its command-and-control centers, and disrupting transportation and communication arteries. In the second week, the focus shifted to attacks on individual sites of rocket launchers or weapons stores. In the third week, ground forces in large numbers would be introduced, but only in order to knock out targets discovered during reconnaissance missions as the campaign unfolded. There was no plan, according to this scenario, to reoccupy southern Lebanon on a long-term basis.

Following is an article that notes that Olmert met w/ Cheney and Rumsfeld in May.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG21Ak01.html

The fact that the Bush administration and the Olmert government in tandem blame both Syria and Iran follows the Clean Break plan to the letter. And the plan could have been fine-tuned very recently. Former Likudnik Olmert went to the US in May and Likud chairman Netanyahu followed him in June - and landed in neo-con heaven, participating in a meeting with US Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a conference organized by the American Enterprise Institute in Colorado.


Consider the ratcheting up of tensions that began in Gaza in June.

Consider the Reich propaganda outlets rapid rolling out of the 'WWIII' and 'Iran/Syria at fault' memes even before the smoke from the first rockets cleared.

Consider the Chimp administrations non-response to Israel severely damaging their big win from last year, the 'Cedar Revolution'.

Consider the 'extra week' they are giving Israel. Don't want a 'quaint' cease fire too soon. There is work yet to be done.

[wakeme2008]

53. Very good research

Israel took a couple Doctors before the soldiers were taken. They have been trying to get Hezbollah to do something and they did and thats all the excuse Israel needed

[Emit]

129. Here's an even more detailed account of recent actions

The conflict in Gaza started on June 8 when the Israelis assassinated a Hamas military officer. Then on June 9, there was the terrible Israeli attack on a family picnicking on the Gaza beach in which eight people died. The entire Arab world watched video of a little girl running along the beach looking at the bodies of her family.

Hamas started launching rockets in response, with their home-made rockets against Israel in reaction to this violence. Never the less there were thirty more deaths on the Gaza side due to Israeli artillery. Then on the 24th of June we have Israel crossing into Gaza and taking two Palestinian prisoners, names unknown, who have never been heard from again. Finally on June 25 we have the Hamas attack and capture corporal Shalit who everyone knows from the extensive news coverage.

So there were many events, much more complex than the simple capture of prisoners, on both sides. There is also a much larger story in Lebanon. In June, in the south of Lebanon the Lebanese Army captured a Mossad operative group of Abu Rafeh who had assassinated various people in Hezbollah in 2004 and 1999. So if one is only focusing on isolated events, you might think this is all about kidnapping. But really the conflict has been building on both borders.

http://irmep.org/Defaults.asp

[oberliner]

214. choice of source

Your source is IRmep?

[oberliner]

215. alternatively

Israel arrested two Hamas militants who had planned to carry out an attack on Israel in the next few days.

Only one was a doctor. The other was a student of Islamic law.

[Emit]

130. Someone's been doing their homework, I see

A+ for content and effort. All kidding aside, thank you for making these points. The pieces you linked to are very insightful. I see this as a pre-meditated, contiguous plan.

[madeline_con]

168. Yes, right now, the spin is being developed.

After the train wreck that resulted from the last allegations of certain countries with "ties" to certain factions, they are working feverishly to come up with something...

I wonder which side will be the first to develop a "humanitarian crisis" that we have to make right. My guess is Israel. :eyes:


EDIT: it's a spelling thing...

[Clark2008]

2. Israel needs to stop kidnapping doctors and stay out of

Gaza.

How 'bout that?

[no_to_war_economy]

8. oh snap!

no you didnt

[madeline_con]

169. One small step for Israel...

one giant leap for M.E. peace.

[Lithos]

3. Solution

Is to force Hezbollah to become purely political if they wish to remain an internationally acceptable group. You do that by giving them more to lose if they remain militaristic than if they give it up. Supporting charitable aims in S. Lebanon would be a very good way to do this. Hezbollah found their niche thru the building of schools, hospitals and other public works to an extremely underserved population. We can either now start helping these people out and pulling them into a bigger community or we can continue on with the same situation.

BTW, Hezbollah generally does not contain Palestinians, so this is NOT a function of the camps there (separate problem, separate solution), but rather a situation created by the Lebanese civil wars.

L-

[K8-EEE]

Ceasefire, International Peacekeeping Troops On The Border

Better "solution" than what they are doing, which is no solution AT ALL. Hey those people in the ME have been fighting forever and it's ridiculous to say "solve that" since DESTROYING LEBANON IS NOT SOLVING IT. It's only getting Hezbollah props throughout the Arab world and the threat will just come from another direction next time.

[SPKrazy]

32. Peacekeeping Troops From Where?

I agree that is an interesting solution.

Destroying Lebanon is not solving the problem you are right, hence the posting of this.

However, Hezbollah is not easily rooted out. Israel has pounded the south of Lebanon with bombs, missiles, rockets, even troops, and yet Hezbollah is still firing rockets at Haifa.

Could international peacekeepers stop that from happening?

Would Hezbollah abide by international peacekeepers?

Who does one negotiate with for a ceasefire? (on the Hezbollah side)

6 years of UN and Lebanese efforts haven't even slowed Hezbollah down.

[K8-EEE]

50. From the UN, or From Belgium From WHEREEVER!

Whoever doesn't have a dog in the fight. Make a buffer zone.

Of course they've "slowed Hezbollah down" just like Saddam was "slowed down," "kept in a box" however you want to put it.

You know, people who say "but Isreal is just a tiny country surrounded by big countries who hate them" well DUH are they trying to make more people hate them as a solution?

It's a dangerous position they are in, for sure, and the thing that makes it MORE dangerous is the failed US occupaton of Iraq. Nothing has been worst for Israeli security than that, do you think they are going to admit that?? When pigs fly, just like BushCo won't admit it.

[barb162]

149. Not from Figi

[BillZBubb]

10. Wrong.

Hezbollah's strength and militancy have much to do with the plight of the Palestinians. Hezbollah became militant BECAUSE OF THE ISRAELI occupation of Lebanon. To try to say it was the Lebanese civil war is bullshit.

Highly related to the Palestinian problem, same solution: Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders and acts like a good neighbor instead of an overreactive bully.

[The Magistrate]

69. Indeed, Sir

Military action is a tool that cannot really solve this problem: it is like trying to extract a screw with a hammer --- you can certainly get it out, but only by destroying the object it is embedded in, rendering even that "successs" quite pointless.

It does seem to me that attempts to fasten this to some grand plan for invasion of even Syria, let alone Iran, are over-intricate and require, so to speak, far too many moving parts. Among other flaws, they require Hezbollah to have essentially acted according to the proposed schedules of those who desire to invade Syria and Iran. It is far more likely that this is the result of several independent actors, each pursuing their local agends in conflict, in some instances to the dismay of their patrons and sponsors, who find themselves dragged by their client's actions into something they would just as soon not be having to deal with right now.

[Lithos]

75. Yes

A military solution will not work, no matter how tempting it appears to be. Setting the clock back 20 years is really not in Israel's best interests either as it was a far more explosive situation. What they need to do is move the clock forward 20 years and establishing a peaceful situation where a military solution for anyone is not even perceived as a viable option.

The over-intricate piece is an apt analogy. I too could fly if I could only flap my wings faster.

L-

[TahitiNut]

77. "military solution" is most often an oxymoron

The "military solution" of WW1 made WW2 inevitable. The "solution" in WW2 wasn't military, it was in the aftermath that the actual "solution" took place.

The only way to eliminate an enemy is to befriend him. Lao Tsu knew this. It's not a secret and hasn't been for thousands of years.

[Joe Fields]

79. Yes, as entrenched as they are in their ideologies, and, as

repulsive as some of the Western philosophies are to many in the Arab world , there MUST be some common ground somewhere, where someone with the wisdom, desire AND international presence can get all parties involved to sit down and work out an agreement to peace that is in ALL's best personal interests. As we are all well aware, each country has their own agenda and set of interests that would best be suitable for them. I am not an expert, nor claim to have more than just an interested American's knowledge of certain events. If I were Lebanese, I would have a differnt view. If I were Palestinian, again a differt view, etc... What is it that the Lebanese really want? What is it that Israel really wants? What kind of an agreement will Hezbollah settle for? What kind of role will the rest of the world play? Will it even have a say?

The only thing I know for sure, is that an escalation in violence will serve no one. Not the U.S., not Israel, certainly not Lebanon, not even Hezbollah, who know that it is certain they will be wiped out, if they continue to fight the Israelis.

In this time, in the history of the world, it is truly sad that America's leadership is dangerously inadequate in it's diplomatic skills, short-sighted, myopic and dishonest in it's agenda for the middle east, and is more than willing to continue to lead the world down a path littered with the destruction and ruin of other nations, while putting us at great and certain risk for the future.

[Junkdrawer]

159. I don't know, Hezbollah could have sneezed, and that would have...

been used to get the ball rolling. Once collective punishment started, Hezbollah's actions were completely predictable.

But then, to tell the truth, while I expected a terror attack to begin an attack on Iran, I would have never guessed THIS scenario. So, what the fuck do I know.

[madeline_con]

170. I kept expecting the attacks to originate in the Palestinian slums

but Israeli defense probably keeps too close an eye on things for weapons in such huge numbers to be smuggled in.

It was bound to happen sooner or later.

[ShortnFiery]

128. Excellent Points!

Yes, beware of those who have nothing to lose. If you increase abject poverty in a populace, you leave a vacuum for militant oranizations to fill.

[Poll_Blind]

4. "Unfortunately they have killed a few hundred Lebanese that may or may not

be supporters of Hezbollah (hard to tell since they were killed in attacks on Hezbollah strongholds)."

The mythology of the "Israeli pin-point attacks" and blaming even the most innocent of Lebanese children for their own death or injury.

Excellent propaganda delivery. You sandwich it right between two otherwise-innocuous portions of your text. Because you'll do it again, just wanted to let you know that the premise "...killed a few hundred Lebanese that MAY OR MAY NOT not be supporters of Hezbollah" sticks out like sore thumb.

I would post some pictures of the children's shattered bodies being carried by aid workers away from bombing scenes and ask you if it is so unclear whether or not these children were Hezbollah operatives but it's hardly worth the escalation.

PB

[SPKrazy]

9. Can You Prove They Are Not Supporters Of Hezbollah?

I can't.

I'm sure that Israel is creating new generations of people that will hate them.

At the same time, I see no realistic solutions to dealing with people that wish for the end of Israel.

I suppose that ultimately the UN and the British (and us) are responsible for giving Israel a state in the first place.

But that's a done deal.

Now there has to be some way for Israelis to support and defend their people.

My "propaganda"? As if.

[Poll_Blind]

11. Can I prove a dead child is not a supporter of Hezbollah?

Good lord. What a POV you've got.

PB

[SPKrazy]

35. It Is Terrible That Anyone Is Dying

I'm not advocating killing children, or any civilians.

However, how does one tell who is Hezbollah vs. who is a civilian.

Do they wear uniforms, do they have bases that aren't in the middle of civilian areas.

It's a terrible tragedy.

My POV is that this is a horrible situation without a solution that I can see period. Israel's solution isn't going to work in the long run I'm afraid.

[Zhade]

138. SPK, please explain to me how BABIES can possibly support ANYONE.

Bonus points if you can do it without sounding insane.

Jesus Christ, I swear, I like you, but what the fuck?

[SPKrazy]

203. No War Is Without Horrendous Casualties Zhade

this one is no different

babies can't pick their parents

if their parents are living in Hezbollah controlled regions they may become targets.

no one ever said babies support anyone Zhade

why would you even ask such a thing?

[BillZBubb]

16. Oh F---ing Please!

"Prove they are not...." That is the "logic" of a loser. That's like Busholini and the Repugs asking everyone to prove Saddam doesn't have WMD before the invasion.

Nearly 40% of the dead Lebanese are children--how much more proof do you need?

I thought your original post was trying to be reasonable, not a propaganda piece. Boy did I read that wrong.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. You can't prove a negative

Killing civilians is a war crime, killing them on the presumption of guilt or pre-emptive self-defense is a true marker of sociopathy.

[genie_weenie]

40. "Civilian" is an incorrect term.

A civilian can be a combatant or a non-combatant. But, you are quite correct that one cannot prove a negative. The end result of this will be a stronger Lebanese Hizballah and a weaker Lebanese Democracy.

[msongs]

27. can you prove YOU are not a supporter of hezbollah?

you better have good proof, because you seem to believe the israelis have the right to murder you if you cannot prove it.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[WillyT]

31. And How About Those Dead Canadians In Lebanon ???

This Lebanese-Canadian woman in Montreal
believes some of her family members
have been killed.

<snip>

Seven Canadians are dead, six of them possibly members of the same Montreal family, after an Israeli air strike in Lebanon. Three more were seriously injured. The Department of Foreign Affairs did not release their names.

However, reports said the dead included a family of four children, their mother, and her husband's uncle. They were vacationing in Aitarun, just 50 kilometres south of Beirut.

The mother has been identified by The Globe and Mail as Amira Al-Akhras, with her children Salaan, 1, Ahamed, 3, Zeinab, 5, and Saja, 7. Another female relative was also killed.


Mahmoud Akhras told The Canadian Press his father was killed in the attack, and said he was a cousin of the Canadian victims. He claimed consular officials were unable to offer much help.

"We're seeing that people are not really that interested," he told CP by phone. "What are they waiting for? More victims?"

<snip>


Link: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060716/mideast_canada_060716/20060716?hub=TopStories

I guess winning "hearts and minds" isn't part of Israel's strategy.

:evilfrown:

[stepnw1f]

36. So Indiscriminately Kill Everyone?

and find out afterwards? Why is it so hard for people to admit what Israel is doing is wrong. Same with Hezbolla but that doesn't mean you should do as the terrorists do and wipe out innocent civilians to make a point. All that says is both sides are acting as bad as each other.

[Little Star]

56. Can You Prove They Are Supporters Of Hezbollah?

This seems to be the more important question. I know that if I killed anyone I would want to be sure they were what I claimed them to be. If I was not able to show them to be what I claimed then I deserve the criticism that my action perpetrated. On one hand you want us to accept that Israel just wants to destroy Hezbollah for their own safety and the good of the Lebanese people. On the other, we are suppose to condone the murder of innocents because, of course, you have to destroy the village to save the people. To me its simple, find another way and stop the massacre of civilians no matter who the civilians are.

[brmdp3123]

23. Maybe they weren't supporters,

but they allowed them to stay. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable.

[Mandate My Ass]

28. Do you believe you "allow" the hate groups in this country to stay?

If you aren't actively seeking them out and putting them into jail or exile, you, my friend, are now a legitimate target of all of their targets.

[SPKrazy]

123. The Government Allowed Them To Stay

and use the civilian infrastructure unimpeded

Bekkaa valley is a haven for terror training

Hezbollah has become perhaps the most powerful political force in Lebanon, a force that wants to drive Israel into the ocean.

As long as no one else steps in to stop Hezbollah, then I guess Israel is going to do it herself.

If Mexican terrorists who didn't like the fact that we took parts of Mexico away from them long ago started firing rockets into El Paso, or Tuscon, or San Diego, and the Mexican government did nothing.

If these terrorists hid themselves amongst civilians because that is where terrorists tend to live (they don't usually have bases) and no one did anything about it, do you think for one minute our government wouldn't do something and that people who were being hit by rockets from terrorists wouldn't be angry as hell and demanding that something be done?

This is a complicated issue, I fear that all that will result from this is a lot of dead people and a new generation of terrorists.

But diplomacy with terrorists hasn't worked well, and whatever progress Clinton made with improving peace prospects was squandered by Bush

[Zhade]

141. SPK, I'm sorry, you're flat-out wrong on this one.

Hezbollah holds a paltry 14 seats in the government - it is NOT "the most powerful political force in Lebanon". That is false.

Likewise, the Lebanese government didn't invite them to stay. The Lebanese government has no real military with which to disarm Hezbollah. So you're zero for two so far.

Yes, it's complicated, but you are basing your argument on erroneous data.

[SPKrazy]

198. So If They Can't Disarm Hezbollah

and no one else has stepped up to the plate to do it over 6 years

then Israel has done what they have to do

[liberalpragmatist]

197. Lebanon WAS Trying to Disarm Hezbollah

Firstly, how do you expect the Lebanese army to disarm Hezbollah when the Israelis, who were occupying Southern Lebanon for 18 years, couldn't do it in that time?

People in Lebanon were quickly getting sick of Hezbollah and there was a large-scale national dialogue about disarming Hezbollah.

But don't just take my word for it - take the word of Z'vi Barel, an analyst with the Israeli paper Ha'aretz, who wrote the following:

In the last 10 days, Lebanon has been turned into a transparent country. Half a million Lebanese refugees, the stubble of the demolished houses, and convoys of food and medicine that don't reach their destination are nothing more than insignificant decorations. That's how it is for the international community, and certainly how it is in Israel's eyes. One can presume that had Israel made half a million Palestinians run for their lives, it would be facing an international tribunal right now. But in Lebanon, anything goes.

It's from there that the absurdity of the condescending position that imposes responsibility for what happened and what will happen on the government of Lebanon is derived. That's the reason for the crude lie that is winning support that the Lebanese want the IDF to continue pounding their country in the name of war against Hezbollah. Until this war, Lebanon was the dream of all those who believe in multiculturalism. It is the only state that grants equal rights to some 18 ethnic groups and sects, which managed, albeit with great difficulty, to build a balanced political system and in the last year was given a global round of applause for evicting a foreign occupier, Syria. The country was heading in the right direction, economic growth was surging, foreign currency reserves were piling up, reaching some $13 billion, tourism was flourishing, and this year was supposed to be the best year ever for tourism. In the terms of military minds focused on targets, Lebanon was a country with a lot to lose. And it also had done quite a bit to neutralize the dangers that were at its doors. The national dialogue underway in the country was meant to create a prescription agreed upon by all the political factions, including Hezbollah, for the reasonable application of UN Security Council Resolution 1559. The new Lebanese leadership understood that to disarm Hezbollah it would have to liberate the Shaba Farms. And talks had already begun about that, with the reasoning going that if Israel agreed to withdraw from Shaba, Hezbollah would have no more excuse to bear arms. There was also talk about coopting the Hezbollah's men and weapons into the Lebanese army and talk - some say agreements - about ways to preserve the quiet in southern Lebanon.

More importantly, the new political leadership in Lebanon and the public strengthened the understanding in Hezbollah that to continue to exist as a political entity it's not enough to resist Israel and war against it. Pro-Syrian, pro-Iranian and even pro-Palestinian positions could no longer serve as a badge of honor for an organization that wanted to present itself as Lebanese in soul and spirit. Officially, Hassan Nasrallah even supported the disarmament of the Palestinians living outside the refugee camps, on condition that it not have an effect on his ranks.

<snip>

It would be smarter to reach the conclusion that the kidnapping attack was the result of domestic Lebanese politics. Among other things, Nasrallah needs power to demonstrate his strength against the domestic pressure closing in on him and to free the prisoners he promised to free. Why does something that appears natural for a state appear inappropriate for an organization? The political structure of Lebanon still exists and there are forces that can set the agenda. Presumably, at this stage of the war, when parts of the Lebanese public are prepared to be angry at Hezbollah and not only at Israel, Lebanese politics could make most impressive achievements. Maybe not disarmament, but perhaps the deployment of the Lebanese army in the south; maybe not an immediate return of the soldiers, but a denial of legitimacy to Hezbollah's military activities. These are not minor goals, especially not when there is no certainty Israel's military actions in Lebanon, which is only intensifying in its brutality, will achieve anything better. And on condition that we let Lebanon live.

> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741436.html

Also, look at waht Michael Totten says, for instance. Totten is a neo-conish American blogger who has written and travelled extensively in the Middle East and has lived for long periods of time in Beirut. (He isn't there right now.) I should add that Totten is pretty pro-Israel, in general.

http://www.michaeltotten.com

July 15, 2006

...allow me to clarify a few things so (some of you) can stop thinking I've decided Israel is the enemy or that Hassan Nasrallah deserves anything but a headstone or a war crimes tribunal.

Obviously Hezbollah started this and Hezbollah is the main problem. Not only did they drag my second home into a war, the bastards also threatened me personally. So I hardly see the point in telling you what I think about them right about now. I'll get to them later.

I sympathize one hundred percent with what Israel is trying to do here. But they aren't going about it the right way, and they're punishing far too many of the wrong people. Lord knows I could be wrong, and the situation is rapidly changing, but at this particular moment it looks bad for Israel, bad for Lebanon, bad for the United States, good for Syria, and good for Iran.

There is no alternate universe where the Lebanese government could have disarmed an Iranian-trained terrorist/guerilla militia that even the Israelis could not defeat in years of grinding war. There is no alternate universe where it was in Lebanon's interest to restart the civil war on Israel's behalf, to burn down their country all over again right at the moment where they finally had hope after 30 years of convulsive conflict and Baath Party overlordship.

The Lebanese government should have asked for more help from the international community. The Lebanese government should have been far less reactionary in its attitude toward the Israelis. They made more mistakes than just two, but I'd say these are the principal ones.

What should the Israelis have done instead? They should have treated Hezbollahland as a country, which it basically is, and attacked it. They should have treated Lebanon as a separate country, which it basically is, and left it alone. Mainstream Lebanese have no problem when Israel hammers Hezbollah in its little enclave. Somebody has to do it, and it cannot be them. If you want to embolden Lebanese to work with Israelis against Hezbollah, or at least move in to Hezbollah's bombed out positions, don't attack all of Lebanon.

Israel should not have bombed Central Beirut, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed my old neighborhood, which was almost monolithically anti-Hezbollah. They should not have bombed the Maronite city of Jounieh, which was not merely anti-Hezbollah but also somewhat pro-Israel.

Israelis thinks everyone hates them. It isn't true, especially not in Lebanon. But they will make it so if they do not pay more attention to the internal characteristics of neighboring countries. "The Arabs" do not exist as a bloc except in the feverish dreams of the Nasserists and the Baath.

***

And it isn't just Totten who says it. Check out this Lebanese blogger from Lebanese Political Journal:

http://lebop.blogspot.com

Saturday, July 15, 2006
To Everyone Who Thinks Israel's Campaign is Just Fine and Dandy

> http://lebop.blogspot.com/2006/07/to-everyone-who-thinks-israels.html

This is a rant I posted in a comment to Michael Totten's blog. Commenters on this site, and especially on his site have been mercilessly rude and ignorant. I shouldn't even have written it. I don't have the time, but I'm steaming mad. This was written for an American audience. Aside from being Lebanese, I'm an American citizen who believes strongly in the Constitution.

I'm having trouble not using profanity.

I guess we in Lebanon should throw away everything that the United States has taught us. I was taught in school about the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I was taught to stand up to oppression and not use evil against my opponent.

I was taught to empathize with those in pain.

I was taught to do things, especially when a people had been particularly brutalized.

My friends and I have braved violence. We were beaten with batons and sprayed with water cannons by the pro-Syrian Lebanese government. We watched as our television stations were closed, all the while Hezbollah's remained opened.

Did Israel help us then? Did the United States or France?

We walked over Lebanese Army barbed wire to protest against the government and the Syrian regime.

We watched as our leaders, spokespeople, AND FRIENDS were assassinated on a monthly basis. Our neighborhoods were bombed. Our elected leaders were forced to live outside of the country in fear for their lives.

We kept pushing.

We pushed against Hezbollah to disarm the entire time. Some were bigots who made sectarian slurs. We kept our Hezbollah sympathetic friends and worked to changed their minds peacefully, as we know better than anyone outside of Lebanon the strange twists that sectarianism gives to every issue and how a terrorist organization can be the only hope for people who've suffered tremendously. The State Department and the White House understood this, too, which is why they cut the Lebanese government slack in disarming Hezbollah. They knew it was impossible to do immediately on multiple levels.

We watched as big countries with big arms and big international roles CHICKENED OUT (yeah, that's you America) about confronting Syria. We continued screaming against the terrorist regime, but no one would listen. Walid Jumblatt argued for the overthrow of Syria IN WASHINGTON!!! He gave a speech calling for Hezbollah to disarm and questioning the validity of one of Hezbollah's main issues: Lebanese sovereignty over the Shebaa Farms.

We had a National Dialogue in which we were trying to prevent war by making all parties amenable to change. This was after Hezbollah froze the government and kept the country in political limbo for months.

Is this not enough for you? What the hell more were we supposed to do? Honestly, what more?

It was only in the last few months that we were able to begin discussing the debates. The last assassination occurred on 12 Dec., 2005. After that the political leadership returned to Lebanon. But Hezbollah threw the government into crisis immediately thereafter. So, we've really had since May to seriously confront the issue. But we've got a hell of a lot of other issues to work through, too, that ignorant Westerners couldn't begin understanding.

Israel knew this and knows this. Condoleeza Rice admitted that Lebanon needed time to disarm Hezbollah. She knew that we had to solve this problem and that there was little any other country could do, which includes the US, France, the UN, and ISRAEL! They all knew that Syria and Iran were the targets, which is why they wrote UN Resolutions to these ends.

The entire time this was happening, we were reaching out through the internet to Israelis creating a human bond. Perpetual Refugee actually went to Israel and wrote quite passionately about his personal experiences there.

The whole time, we were being attacked by Hezbollah members and anti-semites. I argued with people on a daily basis. I argued with government officials. I argued with the Army. I argued with Islamists. But I guess that's not good enough. If the United States, France, and the UN Security Council are too afraid to do it, I'm supposed to.

So, Israel is doing it for us, eh? I thought they would impact on the local dynamic, at first. I thought Israel was going to help prove that they would not abide with Hezbollah's weapons and wouldn't let Hezbollah continue spreading the stupid myth that they can protect Lebanon. I thought this even after they bombed the airport. Okay, it's a major symbol. I don't like it getting bombed, but I get it. At first, they hit military targets and the airport.

But the devastation they have wreaked on us is truly horrendous. The US did not do this to the Iraqis. The US didn't do this to al Qaeda in Afghanistan, for crying out loud. Want to challenge me on this? Huh, you pale, pukish punks who've never done a damn thing in your lives for your armies and constitutions and who got everything handed to you; you punks sitting in your Pajamas (yeah, you there sitting in your Beverly Hills mansions writing movie scripts and worrying about the traffic on the way to Canyon Ranch); you who call liberals in the Middle East whiny for standing up for what we believe in at all times, including when it doesn't sound good to the Israelis and those whose lives are so pathetic they live vicariously through newspaper reports about the IDF and get their exercise for the day during when their adrenaline goes through the roof watching Bill O'Reilly scream at a child. Yeah, all you who want to challenge me, know that I've been to Iraq on multiple occassions. Friends have served and died there. The same goes for Afghanistan, where a good European friend is currently coordinating NATOs operations. I know well what the US did and does in those countries, and what Israel is doing here is far more merciless.

I've seen war in many places. I've studied when it is just and when it isn't. I take these things very, very seriously. This is not just. ... (cont.)

***

July 15, 2006
Becoming a Refugee

> http://lebop.blogspot.com/2006/07/becoming-refugee.html

We have no sympathy for Israel's position right now. None.

We have sympathy for the Israeli civilians being hit by Hezbollah bombs, but there is no justification for Israel's action. It's abusive. The United States did not hit civilians or civilian escape routes out of the country like this when invading either Afghanistan or Iraq.

Israel made its statement. We cannot tolerate any more. We understood what they were doing. We understood why they needed to do it. But now, there is no sympathy left. Hezbollah is not a mortal danger to you. It has the potential to be, but we Lebanese have been trying to change that internally, through UN resolutions and peacefully.

The bombing has gone on for too long. It's too fierce. Hezbollah has lost morale. The Shia have lost morale. The Lebanese have lost their country.

This is a fight Israel cannot win. Everyone in Lebanon knows that Hezbollah cannot win, including Hezbollah. There is nothing Israel can do to get the soldiers back through force. But this isn't about soldiers or Israeli defense any more.

You've made this country unliveable for the people fighting to disarm Hezbollah.

Guess what? I'm leaving. Yep. Me.

Where am I going? Syria. Didn't want to, but I have to. The people we marched against are the ones you sent us begging to. The people who assassinated our leaders, kept us from having an operating democracy, and who armed Hezbollah are laughing it up because they've won the game because of you.

Bashar Assad said Lebanon would be destroyed if he left. I didn't know the Israelis would play into his game. It's not surprising that Syrian-allied Hezbollah started the mess, but you guys are just vicious.

All my Hezbollah supporting friends are sticking around. They call the rest of us cowards. I guess we are. We want to do scientific research. We want our children to learn how to play the piano. We want to watch our stock porfolios burgeon. We can't do that here any more.

I tried to sympathize with you. I didn't support Hezbollah, and if you look at the posts before this conflict began, I was maligning the political parties that oppose Hezbollah for not doing enough.

I even gave you guys the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of this, as did most Lebanese. Even the Shia, Christians, and Druze in South Lebanon understood your position. Not any more.

Oh, well. I'm a refugee.

***

And no, Israel's response hasn't been "narrowly-targetted" at Hezbollah. Michael Totten already mentioned that several areas that were bombed are Christian or Sunni or completely anti-Hezbollah!

Here's what the UN says about Israel's bombing:

UN appalled by Beirut devastation

The UN's Jan Egeland has condemned the devastation caused by Israeli air strikes in Beirut, saying it is a violation of humanitarian law.

Mr Egeland, the UN's emergency relief chief, described the destruction as "horrific" as he toured the city.

He arrived hours after another Israeli strike on Beirut. Israel also hit Sidon, a port city in the south crammed with refugees, for the first time.

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207478.stm

***

I'll also add that most military analysts have questioned Israel's strategy. According to this report in Ha'aretz, there's no evidence Hezbollah is any weaker (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740649.html). And here's what some other military analysts said:

James Dobbins, a former Bush administration envoy to Afghanistan who now heads military analysis for the Rand Corp., said choice of targets by Israel was the key and may be misdirected.

"The military rationale seems rather thin, since many of the targets have no conceivable relationship to Hezbollah," he said.

<snip>

The Brookings Institution's Michael O'Hanlon said the Israeli campaign most closely resembles the U.S.-led NATO bombardment of Serbia in 1999, in which a victory was achieved without a land invasion.

But the 78-day NATO bombardment of Serbia had clear international legitimacy and was more gradual. Air crews targeted Serbian military and communications sites first, and when that didn't persuade the Serb military to pull out of Kosovo, planes hit civilian and government targets.

Targeting was far more discriminatory. Despite tens of thousands of sorties, NATO is thought to have killed 500 civilians in the 2-½ month campaign. By contrast, Israel has killed more than 250 Lebanese in eight days.

> http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-20-israel-strategy_x.htm

So what should Israel have done? It should have been far more discriminatory in its bombing campaign, concentrating its force on southern Lebanon and being far more restrained in the number of bombs dropped. I also, frankly, would have supported a blockade, including the bombing of the airport runways, provided that aid was allowed in, as a way to increase pressure on Lebanon and Hezbollah until there was an international agreement to disarm Hezbollah.

What is needed is an international force with real teeth, similar to the contingent in Kosovo creating a buffer zone between Israel and Lebanon. NOTHING is accomplished by punishing the entire Lebanese nation for the actions of an unaccountable Hezbollah.

[SPKrazy]

199. Damned Fine Job They've Done Too n/t

[liberalpragmatist]

206. Did you read ANY of what I posted?

The whole reason Hezbollah attacked was because of domestic political pressure to disarm; the issue of Hezbollah disarmament was the biggest political issue in Lebanon prior to the attack.

And no, they weren't going to send in the army to disarm Hezbollah at once - doing so would have restarted the Lebanese Civil War and after 3 decades of conflict, nobody wanted that. Every observer in Lebanon could have told you that, as did the Israeli analyst I cited early on.

And what's your response to the wanton destruction? What's your response to the military analysts that are baffled by the targets Israel has chosen?

Please note that I am completely in favor of Israel taking military action against Hezbollah. As both Totten and the Lebanese Political Blogger note, most non-shia Lebanese (incl. the Sunnis, Christians, and Druze) were willing to allow Israel to bomb Hezbollah targets in the South; they couldn't do it and they were happy to let someone else do it. But how is destroying civilian targets all over Lebanon supposed to disarm Hezbollah?

A more targetted and measured campaign would yield far better results; the results of Israel's current campaign are mainly the destruction of civilian populations and enraging the Lebanese population against the West and against Israel. This too in the country that was, before this campaign, the most pro-Western country in the Middle East! Hezollah thrives on the resentments of its supporters; Israel is only playing into their hands. There's little reason to believe that fewer bombs, with some days to "breathe" would have helped keep up Israel's international reputation and could have allowed momentum for a diplomatic resolution and an international commitment for peacekeeping forces and a buffer zone.

I would really appreciate a more thorough answer from you, considering everything I posted. Believe me, I'm not accusing you of neocon shilling or anything like that, nor am I someone who denies Israel's right to exist or will cry "war crime!" after every civilian casualty. I'm genuinely interested in a civil back-and-forth.

[SPKrazy]

207. To Be Honest

no I didn't read your post.

The length and the title just sort of sent me to the quick answer. (edit to correct sor to sort)

Maybe I'll have time to read it later.

[liberalpragmatist]

209. Alright that's fine

Please do read it when you get a chance. I'd like to read a response. And I respect a difference of opinion, I just would like you to consider some of what I posted.

[Zhade]

140. See my sig - I am sickened by some DUers these days.

Offering apologia for the murder of little kids - it's utterly repugnant.

[SPKrazy]

200. Your Sig Line Is What Is A Problem

to say that Israel has no right to defend herself is not equivalent to: you support Iraqis attacking innocent Americans to get at the b*s* administration. If you can't admit that, you're a hypocrite.

That's absurd Zhade, no one likes kids getting killed anywhere and to say that someone is offering apologia for the murder of little kids is repugnant is way out of line

the Israelis are tired of having rockets launched on their northern cities by Hezbollah, they are attacking areas known to be controlled by Hezbollah as well as routes by which Hezbollah is armed and supplied.

Hypocrite? Geez Zhade, I thought you were not such a black and white thinker

[chimpymustgo]

60. Those damned misbehaving KIDS - they should have gotten rid of Hez

bollah themselves, dammit. Then we wouldn't have had to kill them. Tough nookies, kids. Try harder next time. Oh, sorry, I guess there won't be a next time.

:puke:

:puke:

:puke:

[The Magistrate]

76. The Question Of Responsibility, Sir, Is Really Not That Simple

People do not have that sort of control over their neighbors, particular their armed neighbors organized with others into combination.

Living some years ago in an "interesting" urban neighborhood, the people whose apartment shared our landing included a local chief of a violent street gang. It was not at the time feasible to move for some months. There was really no practicable course in the situation but to manifest a wary friendship with the fellow, and refrain from noticing and comment on certain readily evident things. Any number of Lebanese Shia must be in similar situations over the last few years and today, and cannot really be said to bear any responsibility for it, particularly not for the use made of them as cover by the militants. That it is not possible to strike at the militants without striking also such people is certainly true, just as it is true the militants bear a great share of the blame for the harm that comes to such poeple, as great or greater in my view than that which rests on the force they are resolved to join battle with, but there should be no question of asserting on any level that such people in any way "deserve" what happens to them.

"When elephants fight the grass suffers."

[JerseygirlCT]

68. It's difficult, b/c Hezbollah intentionally situates itself

in the midst of civilians. For just this reason.

They'll take the bottom floors of an apartment building -- making it impossible to bomb them w/o hurting civilians.

I'd say there's plenty of responsibility on both sides when civilians are killed or hurt. Hezbollah doesn't get off here -- they've created the conditions making it far more likely that innocents will be harmed.

[BillZBubb]

5. Cripes, I've answered this question so many times is absurd.

If Israel wants peace they must return to the pre-1967 borders. All the other stuff is baloney. Hezbollah and Hamas will wither away if the Palestinians get their land back and have a viable nation with a growing economy.

If Israel wants continual warfare, keep the land. Hezbollah and Hamas will continue to get stronger--they've got time and demographics on their side.

[SPKrazy]

12. Hamas and Hezbollah Will "Wither Away" If 1967 Borders Return?

these are people who want the state of Israel wiped off the map.

Iran supports Hezbollah with weapons, money.

Diplomacy hasn't worked with terror organizations very well for Israel.

If you had the answer I'm sure you would be someone who was out front making the middle east a safer place.

[Trajan]

26. I swear ..... the use of such blatantly fallacious statements ....

is a hallmark of discussions about this subject ....

"these are people who want the state of Israel wiped off the face of the map"

Again : another hasty generalization of what huge groups of human beings think, as if they ALL think exactly the same way .....

Pitiful display of hatred .....

You should be ashamed ..... I am ashamed for you ....

[SPKrazy]

88. Well I'm Not Ashamed

have no reason to be ashamed

I'm not someone who's said they wanted Israel wiped off the map, Hezbollah has made statements as such.

[Zhade]

144. No, you just argued that kids might support Hezbollah...

...including babies, which is insanity.

[SPKrazy]

204. That's Insane Zhade

no one has argued that babies support Hezbollah

it breaks my heart to think about any babies dying

it also breaks my heart to think that Israel has had to put up with from Hezbollah firing rockets, and swearing to kill Israelis.

There are babies in Israel too remember.

[Skidmore]

179. I've heard several Arab or Palestinian leaders come on the teevee

and say that they accept that Israel as a nation is there to stay. Is it possible that over the last 50 years people have been so worn down by constant conflict and that the state of Israel is so firmly institutionalized in the region they are telling the truth? Sometimes I think paranoia and PTSD are so firmly entrenched in the psyches of those residing in the region that nothing will change there. The whole region looks backward all the time and never looks to the future.

[SPKrazy]

205. That May Be True

as long as Hezbollah continues to arm itself, and act against Israel though, then it isn't just a knee jerk reaction to systematically go after Hezbollah

[Zhade]

142. It's racist, though I don't think intentionally so.

NT!

[BillZBubb]

29. Yes, if Israel made a just peace with the Palestinians.

These people want the state of Israel wiped off the map because it is acting like a gangster state. It threatens and terrorizes it neighbors. It occupies Palestinian lands and treats the Palestinians like dogs. People see that. That's why Hamas and Hezbollah get traction.

You put in a prosperous Palestinian state with the land that belongs to them restored and Hamas and Hezbollah will run out of recruits.

Diplomacy hasn't worked for Israel because they use the diplomacy of the mob. For them it's "my way or we'll kill you." People don't respond well to that.

I have the answer, it's just that right now the Israeli's want to hold on to the post 1967 land more than they really want peace.

[Poppyseedman]

65. Certainly you jest???

"These people want the state of Israel wiped off the map because it is acting like a gangster state."

These people want Israel wiped off the map because they are non muslims (JEWS) and control the land. It's really that simple.

The real truth is the Palestinian people are being used as pawns for wealthy Arab nations to drive the Jews out of the area so they can be a un-defiled and pure Muslim middle east. The Palestinian people are considered third class people in the Arab world. Most Arabs I know wouldn't piss on a Palestinian if they were on fire.

[JerseygirlCT]

116. Yes. There's a great deal of truth in this

And I think it's often ignored.

[liberalitch]

13. pre-1967 borders? And you really think that that is all....

... those who gave sworn to destroy Israel want? PaLEEEZE!

[BillZBubb]

33. Read my other response and get a clue.

"Sworn to destroy Israel" what a crock. Many Arabs want Israel at is presently operated destroyed.

And no, the pre-1967 borders aren't the only thing. The right of return issue must be fixed and a prosperous Palestinian state created. Then the Arab casus belli against Israel goes away.

But we both know Israel wants that post-1967 land more than peace.

[JerseygirlCT]

106. Israel feels it needs some of that land to maintain

whatever peace they have.

You're fooling yourself if you think handing over, say, the Golan Heights, is going to bring peace to the region. As if Syria is such a responsible state that they ought to be trusted with that strategically critical high ground?

Israel is there because Israel fought back when attacked on all sides -- and won. Throughout history, many of today's national borders have been determined in just that way. How many decades or centuries before it "takes"?

Shall we re-draw the rest of the Middle East? Jordan and Saudi Arabia are entirely fabricated countries. How about the lines in Europe -- when do you decide to draw them? What's Germany, what's France? Where IS that pesky Poland really located?

For a negotiation to be successful, both sides must offer something. What is it that the surrounding Arab states are offering to Israel? A cease of unending war? No more terrorist attacks? Or maybe they'll be sweethearts and offer to stop calling for Israel to be washed into the sea -- hey, now there's a real good-faith effort, huh?

There are a few players in the current Middle East who could be dealt with. Jordan, for one. A strong Lebanon would be another hopeful possibility.

But Israel does not need to make unilateral deals wherein territory is ceded to another country in return for some ephemeral promise of peace. I don't think that's smart if it's not backed up with something stronger.

And then I think Israel ought to get to work on building a strong and truly democratic Palestinian state. That's the only solution in the long-run. When your neighbors are happy and stable, your borders are secure. That would be a win-win for all concerned. But it's simply not possible when terrorists are the government.

[Karenina]

17. Israel wants the WATER

from the Litani River and will set up its "buffer zone" to assure access. Seizing the water has been on the drawing board for YEARS.

[BillZBubb]

34. Agreed, that is a big part of the problem

They also want to hold Jerusalem and it's surroundings at all costs.

[Minnesota Libra]

37. You know what?? This is the ONLY thing I've heard so far.............

....that makes any sense at all to me. Even at that I think it might only be part of the answer.

I don't get the negotiating with Hezballoh/Hamas thing because anyone who swears to wipe a whole people off the face of the earth can't be trusted anyway.

I would be willing to believe Israel might be after the water if they try to deny Lebanon any and all water. Other than that it might be a contributing factor.

I wish we had a Middle East map that should the various countries along with where all the oil was/is and also where all the water is. I'm sure there is water above ground as well as underground and I'd like to see it all. It might explain a lot.

I still think Israel is trying, at least in part, to create a buffer zone between themselves and Hezballoh/Hamas/PLO/etc.

[kineneb]

61. here you go...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2000/world_water_crisis/default.stm

or a wierd one...but shows the waterways...

http://www.historicjesus.com/maps/israeltop.html

(letting my fingers do the walking through Google: "rivers, lakes, israel, map")

[Minnesota Libra]

80. There are a couple of issues about the ground water supplies..........

.....in the Middle East. There are of course fresh water as well as salt water supplies that can be used in the area.

According to a couple of people living in CA the technology exists to turn salt water into fresh water. In fact, as you can see from my user name I don't live in CA so I'm taking someone else's word for this. I'm including two different people's comments on the issue of turning salt water into drinking water and at the end I'm including a question this brings up for me.......

Person #1: ....the means for desalinization of water is available and reasonably efficient. Aircraft carriers have extensive desalinization equipment and during Katrina used it to provide water for the Gulf Coast. I believe there’s an active desalinization project off the coast of California as well. So the technology is available and in use.

Person #2: .....Absolutely. In fact, there are 11 public and private existing desalination plants of which six are active; there are also 21 others that are in the planning/design phase. Most of these are small plants, some purely for business (ho-tels) and housing development use, and even one non-profit run by the Monterey Bay Aquarium. Here in the Monterey Bay area (Santa Cruz to Carmel) water is highly political land use/housing development issue; fortunately, there are a few enlightened folks about, and as a result, there are currently 3 active plants and 8 more in the planning stage.
Also, it should be no surprise that oil drilling platforms off the coast of California have been using the technology for years for their personnel.
Have you ever seen a dirty car in the cities of California? They are rare

As I said, this now brings up a totally different question for me. If indeed part of the reason for the present military action between Lebanon and Israel is water - drinkable water - why don't we suggest to the UN that we/they (the UN) teach/sell EVERY COUNTRY in the Middle East the desalinization equipment?? Seems like a reasonable solution to me.:shrug:

[kineneb]

162. don't know answer either

however, I am betting that there is a corporate profit angle here somewhere.

One of the big "underground" (pardon the pun) corporate pushes is toward privatized utilities, including water. We have very local experience with a private water company wanting to raise water rates over 200%- this to two small towns with a large population of seniors and others on fixed incomes. (Note-I am a California native, and am quite aware of water issues.) And there is the experience of several South American countries where the locals fought off private water companies.

Also, remember while desalinization is cost effective for drinking water, it becomes prohibitively expensive when one is talking of agricultural use. Israel has been increasing their land under irrigation, and that may be one of the issues behind the current mess.

[Nevernose]

166. Desalinized water isn't as good for agriculture

According to what I've been told by a former USGS hydrologist, desalinized water is desalinized enough for direct human consumption, but still salty enough to destroy agricultural fields in a few years (and there's a major problem with this even here in the US with FRESH water agriculture).

He aslo said the he belives, but is not 100%, that Israel, Yemen and Saudi Arabia now receive most of their water from desalinization plants on the coast.

[Minnesota Libra]

178. So, why not make sure everyone has the same technology?? It..............

....would at least remove one issue from the table. IF, and only IF, the end result is to put ALL COUNTRIES in the region on an even playing field then this would help accomplish exactly that. IF, however, the end result is to completely remove at least one country from the playing field then nothing will help.

[Karenina]

99. The plans have been on IDF's drawing board

FOR YEARS.

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero093002.html

http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm

[cali]

42. I too support the pre 1967

borders, but you do realize that Israel can't pull out unilaterally, don't you? The real challenged is getting the two parties talking and trading. Had the U.S. been involved constructively over the past few years and exerted pressure-particularly on Israel- it's possible we'd be a lot closer to the ultimate goal of a viable Palestinian state.

[BillZBubb]

110. Israel must withdraw unilaterally, without asking concessions.

That way all the Arabs know they are serious--for once. Israel has been using talks as a stalling tactic, or even worse a method to extract territorial concessions as the price of a deal. That just won't work in the long run. As long as they hold any of that land, they are in for continued fighting.

Israel has to bite the bullet on territory and regroup inside it's original borders. Israel can then negotiate with the Palestinians on a host of security, economic, and reconstruction issues. The negotiations would then be between equal parties both with something to lose, rather than occupier "negotiating" with the occupied.

All the front line Arab countries will immediately recognize Israel if it does so. They have already committed to that AND the US can make them live up to their promises.

If Israel justly solves the Palestinian land problem, they solve their long term security problem. Real peace is there if they have the courage to take the step.

[SPKrazy]

201. Why Should They?

so they can be further weakened and emasculated by those that want to kill them?

[Poppyseedman]

47. Peace will only come to Israel when it no longer exists as a state

and all the Jews walk into the Mediterranean.

The pre 1967 border is just a ruse to make Israel geographically too weak to defend itself.

[BillZBubb]

51. Propagand bullshit.

Israel, with a mobile army and air superiority can easily defeat any combination of Arab states. Nobody is asking Israel to unilaterally disarm. Any invasion of Israel proper would require an enemy buildup in the currently occupied areas. Israel could easily detect that with modern technology.

A greater threat to Israel, in fact the only real one is long range missiles. Then no territory expansion is enough.

Establish a prosperous Palestinian state in the occupied land and the Arab casus belli disappears. Moderate Arab leaders will then prosper as well, instead of the anti-Israel demagogues.

Israel wants the land, just not for defense. The supposed defense argument is bullshit.

[SPKrazy]

126. So Having Rockets Fired At Them Regularly

is okay since they could easily defeat any Arab country in the region they should instead do nothing.

[Zhade]

145. The more stupidity I hear from rabidly pro-Israel posters...

...the happier I am to remember that WE'RE on the side of the rest of the world that actually knows the history and what's going on.

Americans really are ignorant sometimes - even a lot of liberal ones.

[SPKrazy]

202. If That Is Directed At Me

you missed

[NJ Democrats]

102. Here's the point

Look at that map. What does the key say? Under EGYPTIAN and JORDANIAN RULE!!! If these countries actually cared about the Palestinians the map would say UNDER PALESTINIAN Control. Don't you people get it? The Arab countries are using the issue of a Palestinian state which they could HAVE HAD long ago, to force Israel to give up enough land that Israel will become weak. All that the Arab countries, Hamas, Hizbollah and the rest want to do is wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the med or kill them.

[tocqueville]

112. those areas fell under Egyptian/Jordanian control

because Israel didn't recognize the Palestinians right to their ancestral land. Israel legal right to land is to the land they BOUGHT from Palestinians or others. The rest is conquered by force.

[BillZBubb]

114. Fear! Fear! Fear! Terror! Terror! Terror!

You've bought the propaganda. Other than a few fanatics, most Arab "don't wish to kill all the Jews". Sure, when Israel is up to it's usual bully tactics and killing Arab, blood runs high and people say crazy things in a wish for revenge.

The Arab countries couldn't have had a Palestinian state long ago, that is a lie. Sure they could have had an Israeli dictated Palestinian swiss cheese entity. But it wouldn't have been a viable country. Just Apartheid for the Palestinians.

What the Arab countries want, and have said repeatedly is for Israel to return to the 1967 borders and let the Palestinians create their own state in the former Eqyptian and Jordanian territory.

Hamas and Hezbollah ONLY exist because of Israeli occupation.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BillZBubb]

135. Look clueless, you clearly can't read.

Hezbollah will continue to exist and now it will continue to grow. Israel's foolish attack has guaranteed that.

Hezbollah won't exist as a threat if Israel ever treats the Palestinians with justice. Until then Hezbollah will be fighting Israel.

[SPKrazy]

131. Exactly

only a fool believes otherwise

[tocqueville]

109. And by what right should the yellow area belong to Israel ?

that's the question

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Israel has consistently pulled back their borders.

They left Gaza, and the result?

They pulled back from Lebanon, and the result?

I don't think pulling back to pre-1967 borders will solve the problem, either. The other side still hasn't got enough interest in finding a solution. They have a vested interest in insuring the problem continues, as a matter of fact.

Until the citizens of Palestine and Lebanon get sick and tired enough of the terrorists in their midst -- masquerading as politicians at times -- to throw them out, there will be this violence there. And innocent people -- on all sides -- will be killed.

There's nothing magic in the pre-1967 borders.

[High Plains]

82. This is a fallacious argument; I see it often.

Israel "unilaterally" pulled back from Lebanon and Gaza and those nasty Arabs didn't appreciate Israel's grand gestures. The problem is precisely that Israel took those actions unilaterally, solely for its own benefit, and without consulting either the Lebanese or the Palestinians. Further unilateral moves by Israel for its own benefit will lead to similar results.

If Israel wants to live in peace, it must make a JUST PEACE with the Palestinians and its neighbors.

I share the opinion of the posters upthread who argue that with a just peace, the "drive Israel into the sea" crowd will eventually wither away. It will not be immediate, and there will undoubtedly be incidents, but this is the only long-term solution.

[BillZBubb]

83. You cannot be serious????

This "argument" is the weakest I've heard to date.

Israel pulled back? Oh, thank you so much. They were illegally occupying the land in Southern Lebanon and got tired of the expense, so they pulled back. Were the Lebanese supposed to be grateful?

In Gaza, the same thing happened, Israel pulled out of a densely populated, economically unsustainable region and left the Palestinians there twisting in the wind. Gaze by itself is not a viable society. Economically it cannot be sustained.

Until the Israelis get tired of constant warfare and the threat of warfare and return the stolen land there will be violence and innocents will be killed. The sad thing is that the Israelis are slowly sealing there own sad fate because of demographics. The enemies they create and maintain will continue to multiply.

The pre-1967 borders (along with a few lesser issues) ARE THE KEY.

[Zhade]

146. Stop feeding the lies. The IDF was DRIVEN OUT of Lebanon.

They didn't leave willingly.

[slaveplanet]

164. yes

Zhade is right, they were pushed out.
They couldn't eliminate Hazbollah then, and their current scorched earth actions will fail to eliminate them this time as well.

[Mr_Spock]

6. I'm glad we went into Iraq and we should invade Iran & N Korea too

.

[SPKrazy]

15. You Are?

Well you are alone on that one Spock. I'm sure there is some sarcasm there that I'm not getting here. Your answer does nothing to offer an alternative for Israel

[Mr_Spock]

58. As another said

Get the FUCK out of Palestine. It's bad enough the land was just taken from these people - at least let them have their own land & live in peace. As if Israel was "owed" this land.

[SPKrazy]

89. In Some Ways

People believed Jews were owed the state of Israel

years and years of wars, scattering of Jews around the world, loss of the land now called Israel from the Jewish people long ago.

Then the genocide of WW2

I think they paid a price.

What's done is done anyhow, no matter how you or I feel about it right now. The situation is that they have learn to coexist without killing each other.

[Mr_Spock]

63. Here's an alternative solution

Incorporate the Palestinians into Israel - they will be easy to control that way.

The only caveat, as Israeli citizens, they must be granted the right to vote. Problem solved. It's going to happen eventually as Israel will eventually have to allow Arabs to vote. Proportionate representation in the Israeli government is what is sorely missing at this point.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

64. From what I have read

proportional representation is what worries the Israeli government, because the Arabs have larger families than the Israelis do. They are fearful that with an Arab majority, their rights to practice their Jewish faith will be diminished or destroyed. What would be needed would be a clause in their constitution guaranteeing Jews the right to practice their religion. This could be strengthened with some sort of UN resolution that there would be international intervention if Jewish rights were denied.

[Mr_Spock]

71. This is one of the biggest fears in Israel at this time.

They will not be the majority within a relatively short period if I remember correctly. There are also many Arabs who cannot vote who will eventually have to be granted this right. I do not see why they cannot have freedom to practice their religion as part of their constitution with a deal with the world to intervene if the Arabs try to force their religion on everyone.

[JerseygirlCT]

115. I can't see them feeling secure about the promise of

international intervention.

We experienced not too long ago just how ready the rest of the world was to intervene as the Jewish people in Europe were systematically wiped out.

They will continue to feel secure only as long as they maintain control of that security, you know?

I agree with the idea in general -- protect the rights of all to follow their religion.

We've (at least until recently, ugh) succeeded by basing our government not on the people occupying our country but on shared laws. I think the rationale behind Israel's founding last century makes that a sticky feat to pull off. In the long run, though, I still think ours is the best system.

[BillZBubb]

84. The Israelis have already totally rejected that.

The Jewish state would disappear as the Muslim majority took over. One idea floated by the Likud was to simply annex the West Bank and expel all the Palestinians. Fortunately the international outcry nipped that so far.

[Zhade]

147. Do you know, a lot of fans of Israel don't know that about Israeli Arabs?

The voting thing?

And yet they scream about how democratic Israel is.

With ignorance that stunning, is it any wonder that the propaganda is so persuasive?

Interesting solution, btw. Something tells me it would never fly, due to the religious mythos regarding Israel.

[EFerrari]

24. Just plese stay out of San Francisco.

[Mr_Spock]

57. why?

...or did you not get the sarcasm either?

[EFerrari]

67. Um, that was a joke, Mr._Spock. n/t

[Mr_Spock]

73. lol

doh, at least I have an excuse for missing jokes at times :D

[EFerrari]

78. LOl!

Yes, you do!

:hi:

[stepnw1f]

38. Sign Up as Soon as Possible

[Mr_Spock]

54. lol

:sarcasm:

[Lars39]

7. They are taking out the infrastucture that supports *people*.

I believe that is called a war crime.

[SPKrazy]

19. All War Is A "Crime"

in that sense

one always takes out the support and command infrastructure of it's enemies in war.

Hezbollah is not a country so they are harder to pin down. They locate themselves among civilian areas because there are no military bases for hezbollah (unless the Bekaa Valley is one)

Lebanon and the UN haven't been able to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah, and they obviously are well armed.

All war is crime from your stance.

[Lars39]

30. This is specifically not allowed.

[genie_weenie]

45. Not exactly.

Remember the Geneva Conventions and ideas of war crimes come from the idea of regulating the National Army of Nation X. It has specific rules regarding the conduct of Civilians out of uniform and with what becomes a military target.

A military is supposed to gain some sort of decisive military advantage from taking out a non-military building and certain untouchable building lose their status if used for military purposes (like Hospitals, Churches, Mosques, cemeteries, etc).

However, Israel is making a large mistake in pursuing this war. IT will in the end only strengthen Hizballah.

[Lars39]

48. So basically no proof has to be offered that these normally

untouchable targets has been used for military purposes...just claim it and bomb it.

[genie_weenie]

49. Oh no. Militaries are supposed to provide nearly

overwhelming evidence to support their descision to attack and even then the targets have to be approved at highest level.

I will not defend what Israel is doing, as I said their current descision will most likely only strengthen Hezbollah. But, my only point was no target is *completely* untouchable.

[Poll_Blind]

59. Dont' change the subject- the poster specifically stated that...

...the Israeli military was destroying the civilian infrastructure. Do you have an answer to that?

PB

[SPKrazy]

90. In This Case

civilian infrastructure=Hezbollah infrastructure

if the Lebanese and the UN had gotten Hezbollah out, the Israelis wouldn't be bombing them back to the stone ages.

[Ms. Clio]

118. "civilian infrastructure=Hezbollah infrastructure'

This is one of the most chilling and absurd things I have ever read here.

Disgusting. Contemptible.

[SPKrazy]

121. Hezbollah Uses Civilian Infrastructure And Lebanon Allows It

call it what you want, but it is in fact the truth

you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig

[Ms. Clio]

122. using your "logic," Iraqi civilians "allow" insurgents to use

their infrastructure, and the Afghan government is "allowing" the resurgent Taliban to use its infrastructure.

For sure there's no lipstick that will make anything but a disgusting pig out of your comment.

[SPKrazy]

133. FYI We Are Occupants Of Both Of Those Countries

therefore we have the responsibility of securing the infrastructure

but, there is an aspect of truth to the fact that citizens have supported insurgents in certain areas and they have paid an awful price for it.

[Ms. Clio]

136. Occupiers, not occupants

again, using your "logic," then it's the responsibility of Israel to "secure" the infrastructure of the Palestinian Occupied Territories as well as that of Lebanon, the country they are invading, not "bomb them back to the stone age." (A phrase you appear to relish repeating).

FYI, it's all part of a wacky little thing known as the Geneva Conventions.

And Lebanon barely has a functioning government at all, let alone one capable of controlling Hezbollah.

So when the bloody chaos finally spirals completely out of control in Iraq, will the U.S be justified in just turning it all into one big parking lot?

[SPKrazy]

186. Well I'll Be

So I've used "bomb them back to the stone age" other times?

and I'm sorry that I said Occupants, instead of occupiers

You're right, Lebanon barely has a functioning government at all
which is why Hezbollah is gaining strength in that country

Now, back to "my logic" Israel isn't an occupier of Lebanon at this point. As for the Palestinian occupied territories, what the hell does that have to do with the topic at hand, which is about Lebanon and Israel, and that pesky old Hezbollah that won't leave them alone.

[Zhade]

151. Since you support bombing the infrastructure innocent Lebanese also use...

...that means you must support the "awful price" Iraqis, insurgent-supporters and not, have paid.

[SPKrazy]

187. I Support Bombing The Infrastructure That Hezbollah Uses

I do not support the Iraq war at all since I see it as having no provocation to have started it, Saddam didn't attack us.

so you are out of line to suggest that I support anything related to Iraq

[Zhade]

150. So you must agree that Iraqi infrastructure = insurgent infrastructure.

Thus, you must agree that it's okay to bomb Iraqi water and power plants, because the insurgents also make use of those.

And further, you must agree that D.C.'s infrastructure = b*s* administration's infrastructure, and thus Iraqis would be justified in bombing DC water/power plants.

That's the logical conclusion to your argument.

[SPKrazy]

188. That's Just An Insane Argument

I'm out of this one now Zhade

I'm talking about Israel and Hezbollah

The other poster got me off on this rabbit hunt talking about Iraq

I made the mistake of following them off a cliff of insanity

[Ms. Clio]

216. that question drives some people into a foaming frenzy

I just can't imagine why.

[Spazito]

66. If Hezbollah locate themselves among civilian areas, and I am not

disputing that, because they are no military bases for them, can you explain why Israel has located several armament factories and storage depots next to Arab Israeli communities? Is this any more acceptable than that of Hezbollah locating themselves among civilian areas?


Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.

http://www.counterpunch.com/Cook07192006.html

and this:

IDF to appeal human shield ban

The Israeli Defence Ministry will appeal against a supreme court ruling banning the use of Palestinian human shields in raids, officials said.
Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz is prepared to make a personal appearance in court to defend the practice, ministry officials added.

Human rights groups have frequently condemned the use of human shields.

The Israeli military believes that the use of Palestinian civilians can often defuse a tense situation.

more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

I find the actions of both Hezbollah and Isreal to be equally dispicable in this regard.

[SPKrazy]

91. I Do Not Speak For Israel

or their reasons for doing such things as building armament factories next to Arab Israeli communities.

Sounds bad to me. Probably they do it to keep them from being bombed. No different from what their enemies do.

[Spazito]

103. Thank you, I feel the same n/t

[WillyT]

14. What I'm Afraid Of...

Is that the solution... will be FINAL!

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:
:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Perhaps I am incorrect,

but I have read and heard that Israel sent rockets to Christian areas of the country. According to the reports, Christians were not supporters of Hezbollah, which is a Muslim Shia organization. Also I believe one of the first targets hit was the Beirut airport, which has made it nearly impossible for people to leave the country. I was not aware that there had been any claim from Isreal or elsewhere that Hezbollah was in charge of the airport or that they were using it as a means of launching attacks. (If they were, wouldn't they have dropped bombs from planes?)

Frankly, I was surprised at the large extent of Israel's attacks. I had always assumed that their version of the CIA was the best in the world, and that it had infiltrated all the terrorist organizations, knew exactly where bunkers, rocket launchers, etc, were, so that they could surgically strike these targets. Apparently this wasn't the case.

[SPKrazy]

25. Syria and Iran Have Used The Airport For Flying In Supplies/Weapons

also it put a stop on them taking the troops they kidnapped out of the country.

Israel is without a doubt making more enemies than friends here. I just don't see a realistic answer for them that doesn't involve doing what they are doing.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SPKrazy]

92. So You Know The "Truth" About All This Huh?

the Israeli's say they are using the airport for supplies, what other reason would they have for destroying the runways than to keep people from using them?

[Zhade]

152. It's called collective punishment, and you're supporting it.

NT!

[SPKrazy]

189. That's A Bit Of An Exaggeration

Since Israel has warned the Lebanese to get out of harm's way

Hezbollah is the enemy

If you had rockets hitting your city everyday Zhade, would you support going after the ones who were firing the rockets, hitting their command and support, and the infrastructure that supports them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

62. Interesting.

I hadn't heard of this before. Since the airport was one of the first places bombed, I am assuming that Syria and Iran were using the airport up until the bombing--is this correct? What was the reaction of the Lebanese government to all this? I know it was only recently that Syrian troops left that country--was being able to use the airport part of the deal of the troops leaving?

I'm still wondering why, if they were using the airport to bring in weapons, they didn't also supply planes and bombs-do you think Syria and Iran are using Hezbollah as a surrogate so that they are yet are not involved in the conflict? It would seem to me that if those two nations want war, they would have used the Beirut airport and their own airports to simply bomb Israel to smithereens so as not to protract things. Since they haven't, there are other factors involved, though for the life of me I don't know what they are.

[JerseygirlCT]

72. They don't want outright war -- at least not yet, and especially

when they've got Hezbollah in place to do their bidding, and take the hits, too.

They know the response they'd get if they officially got into it -- Israel would go nuclear and you see where that goes...

But if they can fund and supply their proxy, they can continue a slow, painful war that depletes Israel and has few complications for them.

[Zhade]

153. How in the world can you claim to know what they want?

Is it your usual policy to just make up what you wish to believe?

You cannot possibly know what Iran or Syria wants, apart from what they say they want. You're not a mind-reader, and based on your posts certainly not a student of geopolitics, so how could you know?

(You don't. Just admit you got carried away and we'll move on.)

[JerseygirlCT]

181. A suggestion: you might back off the insults and find you

get further with the discussion.

I don't think your problem is with my study of geopolitics. I think your problem is that my assessment of the situation doesn't coincide with your own. Fair enough, that's the point of a discussion.

Do I KNOW what Syria and Iran want? Have I entered Assad's and Ahmadinejad's minds? Of course not. Nor, following that point, has anyone else here, including you. We base our assessments on their past behavior and on looking at their current choices. Currently, Syria and Iran are publicly distancing themselves from an immediate ground war. I'll use the reported incursion into Syria last week as an example. Had Syria wished to get involved, it could easily have "verified" the report (regardless of whether it was so or not) and jumped in. Instead, it did the opposite. Their private or covert actions in assisting Hezbollah imply that they are happy to see that organization continue to operate as their proxy in this fight.

If you don't read things that way, by all means, lay out your reasoning, I'm listening.

[Zhade]

182. Point out A SINGLE insult in there and I'll apologize.

(I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. I don't waste time on people who falsely accuse others. If you'd like me to respond, either prove your accusation or retract and apologize, please. Ball's in your court.)

EDIT: I admit my opening line was a snarky question, but it still wasn't an insult. I'll go ahead and agree that I could have made the otherwise-salient points without it.

[JerseygirlCT]

184. "... based on your posts certainly not a student of geopolitics,

so how could you know?"

I'd say that's a bit snarky, wouldn't you?

Or maybe you haven't deemed it necessary to open this post, either.

[Zhade]

185. Oh, yeah, I must have skipped over that. Yes, it's snarky.

I'd even agree it's unnecessary. I don't think it's an insult, because based on my information you seem to not know a lot I do, but that's not saying I'm smarter or better, just that we have different information.

[JerseygirlCT]

196. Which was really my point

I'm not saying I'm an expert, but from where I sit, based on all I've read and learned over my (too many?) years, this is my assessment. But I do thank you for your response, honestly.

I think Israel is perfectly within its rights to react. I also think they have over-reacted and will cause greater trouble for themselves by doing so.

I think Hezbollah is unredeemably a terrorist organization and any negotiation with them is likely to be short-lived. I think negotiation with Syria and Lebanon, through the influence of other countries may be the only way out of this.

Pre-1967 borders are not a magic bullet. They don't guarantee Israel's security, and based on Israel's history, and its people's history, that will be of the utmost importance.

I ache for all the people hurt and killed by this war. I want to see a strong and democratic Lebanon -- strong enough to push the terrorists out and take care of its own people. I want to see a functional Palestinian state -- functional enough to take care of its people. And I want the rest of the world to understand that Israel is a done deal, and isn't going to go away.

I think in so many cases of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, the root causes have little to do with religion -- that's simply the vehicle. If we could find a way to focus on the poverty and despair that drives people to join these groups, we'd go farther in eliminating them.

[Minnesota Libra]

20. Thank you - been trying to say this for a long time, I just..........

.....don't get what people expect Israel to do either. They are very quick to criticize Israel and suggest negotiating with Hezballoh. Other than that no one seems to have REAL SOLUTIONS.

My question is negotiate with who??? Hezballoh/Hamas?? Negotiate for what end??

Does anyone truly think a terrorist group who hides among civilians would actually keep to their agreements?? Maybe in some dream world they would but NOT in the REAL world.:eyes:

[BillZBubb]

41. Negotiate through a third party--LIKE SHARON DID!

Some people are willfully ignorant. Sharon worked a deal with Hezbollah through intermediaries. Both Syria and Jordan would be willing to help.

"Hides among civilians" another idiotic propaganda point. Where else are the CIVILIANS that make up Hezbollah supposed to be? Out in an open field so Israeli F-16s (paid for by the US) can blow them up?

Get a clue.

[SPKrazy]

93. You Just Gave The Reason That Civilians Are Being Killed

because the Hezbollah are hiding among civilians

you said

"Hides among civilians" another idiotic propaganda point. Where else are the CIVILIANS that make up Hezbollah supposed to be? Out in an open field so Israeli F-16s (paid for by the US) can blow them up?

and you called me "dumb"?

[Zhade]

154. So you support bombing innocent Iraqis to get at insurgents in Iraq?

I mean, since you seem to be of the mindset that it's okay to kill those who have the misfortune of being used as human shields, that must be true.

In fact, take a look at my sig - it applies to people who argue as you have. Or take a look at the Geneva Conventions, which outlaw what you argue for.

[Ms. Clio]

163. apparently so

Twisted "logic," indeed.

[SPKrazy]

191. Yes I'm Twisted

now leave me the f-ck alone since you seem determined to stalk me on this thread

[Ms. Clio]

217. LOL

since when is responding to a thread someone started "stalking them?"

:eyes:

I guess that's like bombing Lebanese milk factories and television stations is "self defense."

[SPKrazy]

190. Why Do You Keep Bringing Iraq Into This?

I am talking about Israel and Hezbollah

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. The Brits negotiated with the IRA. We negotiated with the NLF.

The South African government negotiated with the ANC.

[JerseygirlCT]

74. There's no negotiating with Hamas or Hezbollah

I can't see that being fruitful in the least. Where's the leverage from our point of view?

But if international pressure can be brought to bear on Iran and Syria (obviously not led by us, but perhaps others -- Russia? China? Other Arab countries who have condemned Hezbollah already?) along with support (financial/infrastructure/all else) for the Lebanese government, there might be a way out of this.

I don't think it would be easy, and I don't think it would be fast.

[BillZBubb]

85. For Pete's sake, Sharon already negotiated deals with them.

Why don't you get a clue?

[SPKrazy]

94. Those Deals Worked Well Didn't They?

get your own clues

apparently you think there are some

[JerseygirlCT]

104. Thanks, exactly. nt

[BillZBubb]

107. No, not exactly. Sharon got what he wanted without a war.

Get a clue.

[JerseygirlCT]

108. You know you could stop with the obnoxious snark

why don't you get a clue yourself and join the grown-up table?

Sharon's "deal" was so successful that here we are again, yes? That's the point you don't seem to get or don't wish to get.

[SPKrazy]

119. No Kidding

"get a clue"

is getting old

maybe people should have to show an ID to get into a serious discussion on DU?

[BillZBubb]

134. And Israels aggression has been so successful that

here they are again. The invasion of Lebanon last time gave birth to militant Hezbollah. This time Hezbollah will get twice a large. Face it, Israel's militaristic approach has never succeeded, they just keep digging themselves into a deeper hole.

Sharon's deal met the goals he set for it and avoided a larger loss of life. Israel could have done the same this time.

You really do need to get a clue.

[JerseygirlCT]

137. So Sharon succeeded? Or the problem continues?

You seem to be drawing a line somewhere between which of Israel's attempts at peace are successful and which have led to the current situation. I don't see the cause and effect being so proven.

You could as easily say that Sharon's dealing with terrorists only succeeded in encouraging more terrorism.

The truth is that Israel has been trying all sorts of things, and in the long run, none of them have been smashing successes.

The only success has come when both sides have been brought together to deal with the world and particularly the US looking on and enforcing. When both sides have the standing to actually negotiate (I think that's unfortunately questionable right now for Lebanon) and are interested in peace. I'm referring to Egypt, or course.

Hezbollah has absolutely no interest in peace -- why would they wish to put themselves out of business? There's no point in dealing with them.

There's plenty of point in dealing with other actual states in the area -- there's leverage there and a chance of holding them to promises made by the int'l community.

There's plenty of reason to believe that Israel's response this time is overly aggressive and may very well result in an increase in membership for Hezbollah. I don't argue that. I do doubt they will succeed in taking out Hezbollah in Lebanon. It's rather like making a rabid animal angry -- you either kill it or contain it or you'd better not poke it with a stick.

I get all that.

But the idea that somehow Israel is patently ignoring peace -- as if it's easily attained and they choose not to do it? As if it's entirely in their hands? That's just silly.

[BillZBubb]

139. Peace has been in Israel's hands for a decade.

Return to the 1967 borders. Establish a viable Palestinian state. Work with the Palestinians to get their economy moving. That's the basic outline for peace. Sure it's not that simple because Israel has made a lot of enemies by it's military actions. But, once Palestine is a going concern, threats to Israel will wither away.

The hang up is that Israel won't return to the 1967 borders. They'd rather have war, and that's what they'll get.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. If you think ingrained hatred for Israel, and in fact, for

Judaism worldwide, isn't part of this problem, you're being entirely naive.

Returning to any particular border you choose isn't going to bring peace. There are entrenched interests and even states in the Middle East who will simply not give up their obsession with Israel. It serves their interests too well, and serves their hatred as well.

Do you really think if moving to a particular border would guarantee peace Israel wouldn't have already tried it?

The only border many in the region will accept is the Mediterranean.

[SPKrazy]

211. For Some, The Mediterranean Wouldn't Be Enough

so Israel will have to fight for it's existence

something many posters seem blissfully unaware of, or worse, aware of but screaming lies out and calling everyone that thinks Israel should defend herself "clueless" or worse

[SPKrazy]

192. Your Anti-Israeli Stance Is So Transparent n/t

[Name removed]

210. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BillZBubb]

105. Yes, the deal worked very well. Israel got back its soldier.

And it didn't have to start the destruction of Lebanon to do it.

Israel could have done the same this time, but instead decided to take the thug route and guarantee the death of hundreds of innocents. One day you may get a clue, but I doubt it.

[SPKrazy]

120. Get Your Own Clues

here we are again
Hezbollah has fired rockets for months at Israel
kidnapped soldiers

you want to "make a deal", but whether it got back a soldier in the past or not, the thing they wanted was the release of 900 or so prisoners Israel has held for 2 soldiers.

It is better not to negotiate with terrorists because then they just learn they can do it again and again, which apparently is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!

and you called me dumb?

[SPKrazy]

96. You Are Making Sense

don't let that sensibility confuse the blame Israel first crowd here

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jobycom]

21. Sounds like what the Rpeubs said about Clinton and our attacks on Iraq.

What do you do instead? First, you decide not to slaughter innocent civilians. Second, you make sure you stick to the first promise. Then you come up with a solution that refuses to violate the first principle.

Their leaflets sound just like Bush's leaflets dropped over Iraq and Afghanistan.

If someone kills your child because you may or may not have been a supporter of some criminal, they have still slaughtered an innocent child, and it does not matter one little bit if the person they were hoping to slaughter was a bad guy or not. Too much justification for slaughter. Too much war. Israel will NEVER defeat its enemies that way, they will only perpetuate a constant state of war, further justifying both their slaughter of innocents, and the attacks on their own innocents. They create their enemies, rather than destroying them, through their use of military. They have killed ten or more times the number of innocent people they have lost, and no one outside of Israel's circle is going to see them as the victims with those kinds of numbers.

Not supporting Hezbollah. Not taking sides. Just pointing out some realities. Israel is hurting itself more than Hezbollah with these attacks. They are creating more enemies than they are killing, and their kids will still be fighting those enemies, if there is anyone left to fight. The cycle has to be broken, and Israel is the only one who can break it.

[Zhade]

156. Excellent post.

NT!

[zanne]

44. GEE-What about that WALL the UN sanctioned?

Israel is not "innocent". They've been sanctioned by the UN, too. Or is the UN only legitimate when it agrees with your opinions?

[SPKrazy]

97. Did I Say The UN Was Legitimate Or Illegitimate?

they haven't done a hell of a lot to reduce the tensions in the M.E.

maybe it isn't possible to do so.

my OP asked for alternative solutions if there are some

I personally don't see any alternatives and haven't seen any realistic ones offered here either, just a lot of blame Israel posts, not solutions

[izzie]

52. Well the terrorist type things is wrong but I think it is the TV

For one thing we only see military from Israel and lots of it. Then we see small cars and trucks with families running and homes bombed. Now I do not know what you can get from that but that we have a real up to date military (with lots of US made goods) pushing un armed families from their homes and on the run and bombing their homes and streets also. Plus people from the out side running out of the country in a some what Saigon thing. All three cables are running the same stuff. I am sure it is sent all over the world and it leaves me to believe that Israel will look like the bad guy and with most of their stuff coming from the USA. What do you think? Even when the news person will say the terrorist took 2 men and that is what started it, the pictures will speak louder than words. Now that lebanon TV stations are gone lets see if they try to take out the other news people. I am also sure this one side stuff is some thing the terrorist understand and use it. Good reason to take out the TV stations.

[Lerkfish]

55. NOT committing ethnic cleansing would be a good answer to your

question of: What would you have Israel do instead?

when one makse rationalizations for collective eradication of an entire group of people, and can see no other alternative, then I weep for all of us.

[SPKrazy]

98. Who Is Collectively Eradicating An Entire Group Of People?

no one has done that here

I hear the Iranian President say he'd like to wipe Israel off the map

I hear the Hezbollah leader say he wants "open war" with Israel

I see Israel attacking the infrastructure of a country that supports Hezbollah, and is becoming more and more under the influence of Hezbollah

I've seen no genocide yet.

[Zhade]

157. "I hear the Hezbollah leader say he wants "open war" with Israel"

Yes - AFTER Israel began indiscriminately bombing Israel.

But don't let that fact crack the propaganda's hold, pal.

Sheesh, I'm really disappointed in these posts of yours. I thought you knew better than this.

[SPKrazy]

212. Now Wait, Hezbollah Had Been Firing Rockets At Israel For Months

and kidnapped two soldiers

so I think Hezbollah started this clearly

[ShortnFiery]

127. "collective eradication" is GENOCIDE :( eom

[treestar]

81. If the US were to just stay out of it then we wouldn't have an issue

I really don't care what Israel does. Let world opinion condemn them or praise them.

But the US has no good reason to get involved in it. We have tried to get them all to stop fighting and they won't.

Let's spend the money on the US. And don't we have our own wars to fight? At least, according to the right wing. We have this tremendous threat to us from Iraq. Supposedly.

[Emit]

86. "while the Israelis sat on their hands and continued to be attacked..."

I do not think Israel "sits on their hands".

[SoCalDem]

87. "...War That's Started..." (I object to the use of passive tense)

This is a hallmark of the Bush Admin..and "warriors" everywhere

stuff just "happens".. no one ever admits to actually CAUSING the stuff to happen..

mistakes were made
missiles were fired
innocents were killed
peace talks fell apart
communications towers were destroyed


wars don't start themselves.. and as much as I feel for the settlers near the border with Lebanon, destroying a WHOLE COUNTRY and doing it gleefully, is not something that "just happens"...

The craters from those katyusha (the most powerful missiles) look almost big enough to plant a ficus tree.. Sure, I would not want them raining down on me if i lived within range, but destroying a whole country seems a "bit heavyhanded", don;t you think?

[SPKrazy]

100. "A Bit Heavy Handed"?

if someone were firing missiles at you and your family's hometown, would you want an overwhelming response from our military? Or a proportional response?

I'm sure that you'd be happy if our military fired a few mortar rounds back at them, right?

I'd want the missiles, missile launchers, people that fired them, all taken out myself, but I wouldn't enjoy living in the fear of having rockets or missiles fired at me over and over. They make holes a little bigger than a ficus tree would need to be planted in too.

[Zhade]

158. Maybe I'm crazy, but I wouldn't want innocent people THERE to die, either.

NT!

[SPKrazy]

213. So Innocent People In Your Town Being Killed Would Be Okay

but if you retaliated and innocents were killed in the retaliation response, that would be wrong?

help me out here?

no one likes to see people die (except Bush) but I can't believe you would be so passe about someone firing rockets indiscriminantly at where you live. You'd want a retaliation I would think to hit those who are firing the rockets. If they happened to be firing them from residential neighborhoods, you'd want to warn the civilians to get out. If they didn't get out or couldn't, it would be horrible, but it would also be part of the deal I'm afraid.

[jsamuel]

95. false choice: Invading/blowing up a country does not stop terrorism.

Invading/blowing up a country does not stop terrorism.

This false choice of either invading a country or taking the hits from terrorists has to stop in American and world politics. The simple fact is that by invading/blowing up a country, it does not defeat terrorism, instead it only makes it stronger. I think anyone only has to look as far as Iraq and even Afghanistan to see this truth laid bare.

So, by supporting invasions to stop terrorism, we are SUPPORTING TERRORISM by giving it the avenues for growth.

...

In order to respond to those who say I offer no alternatives, I will suggest the following.

Why couldn't Israel work with their close friend Lebanon in routing out Hezbollah WHILE WORKING WITH Lebanon instead of invading it? Lebanon's army is weak, so that is where Israel could help out supplying support to the Lebanese government/military. Limited of course. They would overwhelm Hezbollah from the inside. The Lebanon government would be boosted with support from Israel and the international community. Lebanon would become more stable.

[SPKrazy]

101. Now, I Agree Completely With Most The Facts In Your Link

except that the Lebanese government and the UN have not gotten rid of Hezbollah in the 6 years since Israel left southern Lebanon.

If the Lebanese government were willing to do such a thing, don't you think they would have done it?

I doubt that the Israelis haven't tried to find another way.

It still doesn't answer the real question about what else they could do since the Lebanese government is really not strong enough to do anything about Hezbollah

[JerseygirlCT]

111. I'd like to see this tried again and again, personally

And I'd like to see more of the world's attention and resources brought to bear to make it happen. If Lebanon is serious about ridding themselves of Hezbollah, they should be supported by the world in that effort.

Right now, they seem rather powerless. I think Israel's reaction has been unfortunately over-bearing, but I still think it's completely understandable.

Terrorism isn't going to go away until it is no longer profitable. Until despotic regimes are forced to answer to their own people for their conditions. Until fledging democracies are given more bridges and hospitals and fewer bombs and guns. Until we unchain ourselves from our dependance on oil, and all that that demands in terms of our relationships with less than savory regimes in the area.

It's all interconnected, and there isn't an easy answer to unknot it all.

[SPKrazy]

117. There Isn't An Easy Answer

one also has to wonder about why there isn't more attention brought to bear on it from the world.

Israel will do what they have to do, and the world, US in particular needs to do more

[Zhade]

160. SPK, which is it?

Is it

"...the Lebanese government and the UN have not gotten rid of Hezbollah...If the Lebanese government were willing to do such a thing, don't you think they would have done it?"

or

"the Lebanese government is really not strong enough to do anything about Hezbollah"

Your own post contradicts itself!

[jsamuel]

171. yes, that is the point

The Lebanese government isn't strong enough.

But it would be if Israel helped it get rid of Hezbollah.

[Zhade]

183. They define "help" strangely. I don't think indiscriminate bombing helps!

You know?

[SPKrazy]

193. It's A Little Of Both

1. it is weak
2. it has no will to go after Hezbollah since Hezbollah is popular among Shiite Lebanese who support it even as a political party

I only contradict myself in your mind

[boston bean]

113. I am sure the lebanese babies that I saw with hole in their bodies

are not willingly a part of hezbollah.

[SPKrazy]

124. I'm Sure They Aren't

and that blood will be on the hands of the Lebanese government for not ridding itself of Hezbollah who fired rockets into Israel, supported terrorist bombings, and whose goal is to push Israelis into the ocean.

The Israelis will also have to live with their sins.

[Zhade]

161. You can't have it both ways.

"blood will be on the hands of the Lebanese government for not ridding itself of Hezbollah"

Three posts up, you acknowledged that the Lebanese government doesn't have the power to rid Lebanon of Hezbollah, and now you reverse that to argue away Israel's culpability in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Lebanese.

Your argument is two-faced and dishonest. Either the Lebanese government COULD rid itself of Hezbollah, or it couldn't. Pick a position and stick with it - you don't get to change the premise to fit the argument.

[SPKrazy]

194. The Lebanese Has Not Had The Power Due To Lack Of Will

and lack of support

the people don't support getting rid of Hezbollah I guess, so the Israelis are doing it for them

the blood is on the Lebanese government and the people who support it, not the Israelis

you can call me "two faced and dishonest"

but if it were you that was being fired upon by Hezbollah, I'm sure you would just sit back and say, Okay, we must talk to them about this

[ShortnFiery]

125. Nope but you can safely bet your paycheck that their living brothers will

join A.S.A.P. Hezbollah is an integral part of the community. There's no way you can compare it to a cancer because it is part of their fabric of society and NOT ALL PARTS are militant. Thank goodness Britain didn't bomb all of Ireland to get those EVIL lurking IRA.

[slaveplanet]

148. Israel hardly sat on their hands

The Mossad's been using proxies to infiltrate, run assassin cells, kidnapping cells, innumerable incursions of airspace including the use of Israeli aircraft to detonate car-bombs, and groundspace incursions with commandos since the 2000 cease fire and prior.

And Hezbollah's been at it as well, but mostly their response is firing rockets, they don't have equal technology and networking skills to the Mossad.

The Israelis are hardly the innocents that just stood back and allowed rocket attacks that your statement implies.

[catbert836]

155. Some Charity Work in South Lebanon

would be helpful. Hezbollah has a headquarters there because it is really the only one that has been there for the people, created hospitals, schools and other infrastructure, similar to what Hamas has done in Palestine. Western countries must cut terrorism off at its source, the communitues where it is allowed to flourish.

[Nevernose]

165. And you STILL haven't gotten any good answers here.

The closest one I saw that at least made me think was "return to the 1968 borders."

And then I remembered that the reason Israel changed the borders in 1968 was because their enemies aren't intereseted in living in peace. They want dead Jews, and, failing that, the destruction of Israel.

I doubt that most Arabs or Lebanese or Palestinians feel that way, but there are enough of them who DO feel that way to cause some damage.

[pizzed]

172. What's the point in argueing about it?

:argh: Saying that Lebanan 'shelters' Hezbollah or that Hezbollah 'hides out among Lebanese' is ridiculous. Hezbollah equates to Neo-Con, how much 'blame' can you assign America for sheltering Republicans? or for Republicans hiding out among us? Hezbollah isn't a separate nationality, for pete's sake. Of COURSE all the Arab countries want Israel OUT! They're nothing but usurpers and the original Terrorists, and what they're fighting about is GREED - they want ALL the land... you don't think so?

Well, here's an idea, give TEXAS to the Zionists! Then we'll see how long before they start trying to take New York and Chicago, too. ....and BTW ~ the Jews are NOT a 'nationality', they are a RELIGION, from ALL SORTS OF NATIONS. (Actually, :eyes: giving a country to the Jews is like giving Ohio to the Baptists, isn't it?)

The REAL culprits in the mess are the PNAC/Bush/Cheney cabal! ...and just to think that Clinton was impeached for a little hanky-panky!

:shrug:
A couple of generations ago, people used to teach their children to put themselves in the Other Fellas Shoes (aka "do unto others") ... guess that's not an American concept any more.

[Nevernose]

173. But they don't all want the Jews or Israel out.

Most of the countries who USED to want the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews have signed peace treaties.

But now, instead of discussing peaceful solutions, we're debating blame again.

If the Israelis wanted ALL the land, then how come they left Gaza and they left Sinai and they left the Golan Heights? Maybe what they want is just to not got invaded anymore?

But now, instead of discussing peaceful solutions, we're debating blame again.

If we gave Texas, say, to the Palestinians (instead of "Zionists," often a euphamism for "Jewish"), and they attacked New York or Chicago? We'd have a problem. If the KKK were killing people there, though, we'd also have a problem.

But now, instead of discussing peaceful solutions, we're debating blame again.

...the Jews are NOT a 'nationality', they are a RELIGION, from ALL SORTS OF NATIONS.
While that certainly is the politically correct thing to say, I think a more accurate descriptor would be "ethnicity."

Who gavce what to whom at this point is irrelevant. It's not only been sixty years (like I can see a lot of people giving up their 3-bedroom ranch-styles to American Indians), but it's not REALITY. ISRAEL ALREADY EXISTS. It's not going anywhere. Ever. Period. Those crazy fuckers'll KILL anyone who tries to take it from them. So when you join in the craziness and say irrational things like, "from ALL SORTS OF NATIONS. (Actually, :eyes: giving a country to the Jews is like giving Ohio to the Baptists, isn't it? you're not playing in reality. What happened 60 years ago doesn't matter. It's not going to change. We have to find a solution to the way things are NOW.

And, for the record, the Civil War answered your question. We can give Ohio to whoever the hell we want to, and they don't have any say in the matter. If we wanna give Ohio to the goddamned Scientologists we can. We own it, and it's ours to give.

But now, instead of discussing peaceful solutions, we're debating blame again.

We DID used to teach eople to walk a mile in another person's shoes. An ironic expression, that, "walk a mile in another man's shoes." It started amongst white people in the American South during the days of segregation and slavery.

From CNN: Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah apologized for an attack that killed two Israeli Arab children in northern Israel, saying the youngsters were "martyrs for Palestine." While not mourning the loss of other Israelis or Jews...

But this is, of course, not anti-Jew, just anti-Israel on the part of Hezbollah?

But now, instead of discussing peaceful solutions, we're debating blame again

So: failing Israel casing to exist, what REALISTIC propostiion do you have to ending the violence in and around Israel?

[liberalpragmatist]

208. This is a false choice

Why is the only option for Hezbollah's crimes the mass bombardment and destruction of Lebanon? The majority of the country is NOT Hezbollah and even military analysts have questioned the value of Israel's targets. Most of the targets are civilian in nature and the death toll is overwhelmingly civilian. The entire country of Lebanon is furious, and rightly so, and it's even harder as a result to form a genuine peace with Lebanon.

Keep in mind that Lebanon was incapable of disarming Hezbollah militarily or extremely suddenly because Hezbollah is a legitimate political force among Lebanese Shi'as and any sudden military disarmament would have led to a re-outbreak of civil war. The Lebanese government and the rest of Lebanon WERE trying to disarm Hezbollah; its disarmament was the major political issue over the past year, and many analysts have suggested that the whole reason for Hezbollah's abduction of 2 soldiers was in response to political pressure to disarm.

What should have been done? More limited targetting that concentrated on the Lebanese South. The kind of heavy bombing that Israel has undertaken has resulted in a mass refugee problem and hundreds of civilian deaths, which is NOT conducive to long-term peace or reducing sympathy for Hezbollah. And yes, some civilians would have died - that's true in all air campaigns. But as one military analyst put it, the campaign this most closely resembles is the NATO bombing of Serbia, except that that campaign led to 500 civilian deaths over 2 1/2 months, not 300+ civilians in 12 days, something that is entirely due to the bombing of civilian targets.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-20-israel-strategy_x.htm

Frankly, I could even see the strategic value of a blockade and had Israel limited it to the destruction of roads out of Syria, blockading of ports, and the bombing of airport runways but otherwise left the internal infrastructure intact and allowed aid to flow in, that could have been a way of applying pressure without destroying so much of Lebanon.

The ultimate solution to this present conflict is the creation of a buffer zone occupied by a UN peacekeeping force with teeth and to ensure the disarmament of Hezbollah. I don't think the extent of Israel's bombing campaign is going to change that outcome and I believe that such an outcome could have been achieved without such heavy use of force.

(Also, for a more thorough look, including excerpts from other articles and Lebanese blogs, please see my response at Reply #197)

[madeline_con]

167. "Israelis sat on their hands ..."

In what universe?!

Hezbollah is acting against Israel in retaliation for its horrendous treatment of innocent people.
Israel has a history of state-sponsored terrorism, "collective punishment" and atrocoties against innocents.

Hezbollah's actions were inevitable, and a long time coming. People will take just so much before they fight back.

[iraqifreedom2006]

174. stop fighting

We need to just pull every troop we have in the world back home. let the rest of the world sort it out, we aren't doing much good by staying over there and leaving wouldn't hurt things any worse than the are already! Those middle east countries (Esp. lebanon and israel) have been fighting for generations and for us to think we can make them stop just shows how ignorant we really are.

[The Straight Story]

175. Welcome to DU

and I agree.

[liberal_patriot_md]

176. What would I like -- A Measured response

2 kidnapped soldiers vs. Missile strikes on a civilian airport and power grid -- somethings out of proportion.

"They are taking out the infrastructure that supports Hezbollah. Eliminating the methods that Iran and Syria can supply Hezbollah easily."

Infrastructure that supports hospitals, too. And if you think that Iran and Syria can't supply Hezbollah with helicopter drops and airplane hot drops you are mistaken. These strikes hurt uninvolved civilians much more than Hezbollah. No air conditioning and no water (pumps need electricity) in the heat of a Middle East summer. But what, I guess they deserve it, huh?

"Unfortunately they have killed a few hundred Lebanese that may or may not be supporters of Hezbollah (hard to tell since they were killed in attacks on Hezbollah strongholds)"

As opposed to a few dozen (if that) Israelis. Thanks for making the opposing point for us. The guilt by association line is weak too. Living in the same town as Hezbollah makes one a supporter, hell then I must be Republican supporter, because I think my neighbor is.

[Hissyspit]

177. Let's ask the dead children who "may or may not have been supporters of

Hezbollah" for solutions. Oh, wait. Unfortunately, they're dead.

[oberliner]

195. or maybe we should ask John Conyers

"None of us condone terrorism in any way, shape, or form, and I believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that was, is, and remains a threat to peace in the Mideast, and must be dismantled and disarmed."

John Conyers
July 19, 2006

[Hissyspit]

218. I didn't say Hezbollah wasn't a terrorist organization.

I was only referring to the OP's statement ("Unfortunately they have killed a few hundred Lebanese that may or may not be supporters of Hezbollah") about unfortunately killing people who "may or may not supporters."

One third of the victims - wounded or killed - so far in the conflict have been children.

Lobbing missiles indiscriminately into civilian areas is a terrorist tactic. Israel has used terrorist tactics, too, as well as illegal and immoral tactics that may not be defined as "terrorist."

I will not support Israel as long as they act like the Bush Administration and I will not support Hezbollah as long as they use terrorist tactics. But I don't think I've ever seen a post as ridiculous as this by the OP (See #4 for the thread) in all my time on DU: "Can You Prove They (Children) Are Not Supporters Of Hezbollah?

[Ms. Clio]

219. yeah, truly exceptional in that regard

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[The Magistrate]

220. Locking

This has become a flame-war.