Pay Attention, Re: Hillary

[RoyGBiv]

Up front, she's not my favorite politician, one of my least favorite Democrats in fact. I stay out of threads concerning her because they tend to devolve into flame wars rather quickly, and whether you like her or don't, such discussions rarely do any good. Regardless, I pay attention to what is said about her to assault her and to defend her. The truth, as usual, is probably somewhere in the middle of all that rhetoric, but that's not exactly my point with this.

I would ask, simply, that those of you who are prone to involving yourselves in these threads or simply noticing them, for or against or neutral, pay attention to what has taken place today. Hillary stood up. She spoke her mind in a way that was not shrouded in political double-speak. She spoke not simple words but issued forth venom imbued with truth. She called the Bush administration to account, all of it, from the very top down to the last lapdog in the GOP pool of lick-spittle. That may or may not make her Presidential material. I don't care one way or the other. What I do care about is that she is an elected representative of people, and she stood up today, and she spoke her mind, and she made me proud to call myself a Democrat along with her. As Democrats, no, as people who are sick and damn tired of listening to these people who alway consider first whether their comments are diplomatic enough not to piss off too many people or perhaps only to piss off just the smallest number possible, these comments were welcome from this tired, aging soldier. I am Fed Up with vacillating politicians. Call them what they are. Hold their toes to the fire. Make them answer for their disgusting crimes and behavior!

But, pay attention. Notice what happens. Notice the people that come up out of whatever hole they were in to trash her. Notice it here. Notice it in the media. Notice it on your street corner. These people are afraid, afraid of being called to account. They don't want truth. They don't want tough commentary. They don't want to have to answer.

They are among us, in vast numbers. They may or may not know what they do, but their awareness or lack thereof is not the issue for the rest of us who are Fed Up. They do not help. They only tear down. They have no purpose but to destroy.

For maybe the only time in her career, Hillary spoke for me, and I thank her. Pay attention to what she said and what was said in response. Learn from it, and we can move forward. Ignore it, and we will continue to fail.

[Flabbergasted]

1. Well written, I agree

[FogerRox]

3. Sharpton was very supportive on CNN.

I am no Hillary fan -- but she did good- real good

[RoyGBiv]

6. Exactly my point ...

And more succinctly stated.

She did good. That should be recognized.

[w8liftinglady]

2. good post-Kicked/recommended

[babylonsister]

4. Hillary is a very smart woman. Watch her and take notes! nt

[goclark]

25. Recall " vast right wing conspiracy! " Speak babylonsister

She called it exactly right and the smart Repubs let us join in thinking she was talking crazy!

She probably did more for our cause by calling it a Plantation then we can realize.

Wake up America! We are ALL Multicolored Slaves on the Neo/Con Plantation!

Bravo for Hillary for pointing that out.

History will prove that she told the TRUTH.

[lvx35]

5. Well said.

Her actions are what should be judged, and good actions call for praise.

[oasis]

7. Dems should give Dems credit when credit is due. Hill's tops with me but

Clark, Kerry, Gore and the rest get my support and praise when they deliver.

[Ready4Change]

8. Who doth complain too much?

It would be good to note which moles pop up their heads. Good point.

[ebayfool]

9. Kicked & rec'd - Very nice, very good!

I avoid the HC threads for the same reasons you listed, actually circled this one several times before curiosity made me click on it. I'm glad I did!

(there are certain posters on DU that I'll follow just to see what they've written, they are that good & thought-provoking ... you are on that short list!)

[RoyGBiv]

13. I'm flattered ...

I can go on idiotic rants with the best/worst of them, but I do try sometimes not to waste people's time. Your comments are most appreciated.

[Nicole]

10. Well said

For maybe the only time in her career, Hillary spoke for me, and I thank her.

Proud to be your 5th recommendation.

[RoyGBiv]

12. I thank you ...

I've never before written a post hoping it would make it to the greatest page, but I have to admit I did have that hope with this one, only because I had recently waded through a "greatest" thread that was in fact the inspiration for my comments, something started only to trash her for what she said.

Again, thank you.

[Nicole]

18. You're welcome

This is certainly worthy of the greatest page. Thank you!

[Blue_Roses]

11. I think you're right and I'm starting to see what this is all about.

When I first heard the comments she made, I froze--not because she said something that was entirely true and not because she could be making herself a lightening rod for the GOP spin machine, but because of the sensitive nature of this topic for those of us who have lived in the heart of "plantation country" literally. Those wounds run deep and will always leave a permanent scar no matter how often it is approached. The history of slavery in the south still, STILL rings loud and clear, but it just sounded weird coming from the mouth of a "white woman" and that makes many uncomfortable who are used to women being submissive, which is the reason many GOPer's hate Hillary--she's not.

I've listened and read the dialog going about this today and I have to say, watching who is upset and who isn't is starting to chart out a pattern. It seems to be WHO said it rather than WHAT was said.

You're right and I think you're on to something.
:thumbsup:

[RoyGBiv]

14. So are you ...

On to something, that is...

Your analysis runs far deeper than mine and touches on the real impact of the words she spoke. I did not intend to get into that, merely to make the point, which you correctly gathered, that we should pay attention to who is all upset and what they say in response.

If we were to run with this, your commentary would be an excellent starting point. What she said was in fact offensive, but it was not offensive in the way those who are trying to disregard her want us to believe. What she said is offensive because it hits far too close to the truth.

[Blue_Roses]

17. I think it's hard to know what is

"politically correct" when a issue this sensitive comes up, especially knowing the hurt so many have endured and continue to endure because of racial bigotry. Many whites are more outspoken now to the intolerance of bigotry, (especially since there was a time when they would be lynched as well for standing up for the black man) but it's still hard to know when too much can be offensive.

Many are just simply uncomfortable with the subject and rather than have a intelligent discussion about it, they--whoever they may be--simply get nervous and start shifting the conversation. Uncomfortable because of their own guilt or their own continued bigotry. Many whites hurt as we look back and see how our ancestors played such a horrible role in such hate. Guess many think it's better left unsaid, thus leading to the result we see now against Hillary.

I'm glad you started this discussion. It's one that needs to happen more often:)

[RoyGBiv]

19. It makes sense ...

I understand what you're talking about anyway, and I'm pretty slow to catch on sometimes. :-)

The unspoken rule being violated here is that one does not invoke analogies that involve the very real racial oppression that continues to exist in this country because that is an issue that neither party, by and large, wants to acknowledge in all its detail. Democrats can't talk history because Democrats, and Democratic ideals in fact, were the moving force behind racial oppression for well over a century. By contrast, Republicans can't talk in the present because of their inheritance of the disaffected white supremacists who lost faith in "Democratic ideals" after FDR and provided a significant impulse behind the election of Reagan and the subsequent takeover of Congress. It's not safe dinner conversation.

But, it's real, and the analogy fits, far too well. Democrats have to acknowledge that they have grown beyond their roots centered in racial oppression, and as a part of that, they must stop trying to play to that crowd. That path leads to madness and chaos. We need to define the contrast, make clear that a difference does exist between us, that we are right and they are wrong, and if that invokes discussion of racial issues, so much the better. We have been slowly inoculated against it since the 80's, not because things have truly gotten better, rather because those in power were not served well by such a discussion.

I have no idea whatsoever if any of this was Hillary's intent, and I really don't care. As implied, it's not really about Hillary. It's about what she said and what is said in response. So far, that response has been geared toward shutting her up because of who she is and how horrible it is to say what she said, not because what she said is truly wrong. She hit a nerve, in other words, and people on all sides of the aisle best take notice of it, intentional or not.

[Blue_Roses]

21. yes, they are trying to shut her up

but like you said, this one is out now and needs to be addressed by all who understand because she is right--the house is being run like the plantation when you think of how the rich got a huge tax cut and they can't even raise minimum wage. :eyes:

...and the list goes on and on...

[ginnyinWI]

15. Very good observations

I really liked this part:

But, pay attention. Notice what happens. Notice the people that come up out of whatever hole they were in to trash her. Notice it here. Notice it in the media. Notice it on your street corner. These people are afraid, afraid of being called to account. They don't want truth. They don't want tough commentary. They don't want to have to answer.

To my Kerry-watching friends and I, it's an all too familiar pattern: Kerry stands up and says something bold and brave, and right on cue--we wait for it--"they" come out of the woodwork around here with the usual rants and mis-characterizations. Never fails--and we never fail to notice.
Hillary is in for the same treatment. Any Dem who has any political capital and is a threat will, too.

[RoyGBiv]

16. I agree ...

In fact I wrote out an entire paragraph about the parallels between what happens when Kerry speaks and what is taking place now, paying special attention to September through election day in 2004. I even had links prepared for the eventual dissent. I decided not to include that paragraph because I wanted to make my comments more focused. Regardless, your observations are right on target. This is a pattern, and I've had my fill of it, but in the end, if we pay attention to it, we learn a great deal about our opposition that can be used. That is, we become more aware of what scares them.

[tavalon]

20. I did notice

and my bad, I didn't comment. I don't like her either so it is especially important that people like you and me speak up when she actually does something good and powerful.

Positive reinforcement is far better than negative.

[RoyGBiv]

42. Exactly the point ...

The fans will always be there, and that's fine. I have my favorites as well. But we truly start to appear as a unified party with unified goals when we speak well of those other than our favorites when they do something with which we agree. Otherwise those people have absolutely no motivation to improve. If you want to direct the course of party policy, support that which speaks to our core values even if you may not personally like the person who said it.

[suziedemocrat]

22. Exactly!! I'm much more frustrated with her kissing up to Republicans.

I didn't catch all of the news yesterday, but I didn't think she said anything wrong. I mean, we ARE all slaves to the party in power right now.

[Apollo11]

23. Slavery is not the same as submission

By definition, a slave has no choices.

Today - Americans do have a choice.

We can choose to stay silent.

Or we can choose to fight back.

www.algore.org :)

[_dynamicdems]

24. Amen and thank you!

As soon as a Democrat takes a stand, on anything, the attacks begin. I'm never going to stoop so low as to criticize any Democrat on a public forum, not for love nor money. I've got my favorites, but the least of the Dems rises so far above the worst of the Repugs that it is simply "no contest."

It is interesting, as you say, to take note of what is being said and heed the warning. All it takes is one person to start a flame here. There are so many willing to jump in on the attack. Doesn't anyone ever wonder about the motives of the people who do this sort of thing? Republican tactics are dirty. We have seen that over and over again. Doesn't it strike anyone as familiar when Dems are attacked here...usually by the same instigators?

Let me think like a Republican for a minute here.... (This is painful and I'll have to take a shower afterward, but here goes...) All it would take for me to organize against a progressive board would be a handful of friends, or if I were ambitious enough, I'd make up several IDs and go it alone. I'd post on all kinds of liberal subjects sounding so left that I'd be assured of acceptance as a true liberal. I'd divide my friends (or all my alter egos)up with assignments; one for each Democrat I wanted to discredit. This would be so easy. I might start negative threads against particular Dems, but I'd have to be very careful not to give away my true motives. What I'd probably stick to is starting negative flames on positive posts about each particular Democrat in my sites.

We have seen this time and time again, but does anybody actually get it? When I hear people criticize Dean for putting his foot in his mouth, Kerry for conceding the election, or Hillary for being to right-wing (give me a break), I'm not going to question the Democrat, I'm going to wonder about the people doing the attacking. Nobody and nothing is sacred to these folks. They have no honor and they will not draw the line at lies, slander and libel. They have proved this with the recent attacks on Rep. Murtha.

We have opinions and we have favorites. No human being is perfect. Human beings make mistakes. Democrats are human beings and they do make mistakes. Therefore, not a one of them is perfect. That said, take a look at the Republicans. These folks are perfect: they are perfect buttwipes. They are machines designed for greed and corruption. They spew lies without conscience and they stick together like one cohesive lump of .... I'll let you fill in that blank.

Wake up folks. 2006 is here and we have work to do, so stop playing with the Trolls.

[ginnyinWI]

29. right you are, ddem

It is 2006 now; we have less than 10 months until the mid-terms. I can see no justification for trashing Dem politicians when they need our support in trying to get Congress back. Not one of them needs for us to trash their supposed "rivals" within the party. It just drags everybody down; the resulting negativity makes people turn away in disgust, thinking that all politicians are bad, so what's the use. And that's exactly what the trolls want.

Democratic Underground is supposed to support Democrats. We can certainly debate the merits of this or that policy or ideology, but let's not get personal, because it adds nothing to the discussion but divisiveness.

[RoyGBiv]

41. Hope the shower went well ...

Thinking like a Republican is a dirty business, but it is an unfortunate evil sometimes.

I applaud your analysis and want to take a moment to reiterate your last point by offer a bit of additional commentary. It is 2006. We do have midterms. We must do well there, and it will be a hard battle that requires all our energies. What better way to dillute those energies than by forcing our focus away from the midterms to an election season two years distant? No challenger candidate has ever been positively known at this point in time. A lot of suggestions fly around, moreseo in recent decades than historically, but the final challenger is often something of a surprise. Bill Clinton himself was a surprise. The smart money at this point in the race was on people who never even had a hope of nomination by the time of the convention.

Focus, people, focus. We have something important in front of us right now.

[_dynamicdems]

46. Shower good: washed those Repugs right outa my hair! Tis true:

we really do need to pass these midterms.

If we don't win big this year, there won't be much of a country left by 2008. The House and the Senate are under Republican rule and the Supreme Court is under siege. Roberts has already shown his true colors and Alito will not doubt follow suit, if confirmed. The man with the proverbial hand on the button is a certifiable madman (when he's sober) and he's surrounded by the greediest and most corrupt bastards in the history of politics. And if that isn't bad enough: they are all incompetent!

We think they are on the run now, but that's just when these neo-nutball types are the most dangerous. They will go to any length to win and the prospect of what they will do next is absolutely terrifying. Hell, if Bsh has his way, there won't be a 2008 Presidential election, because he'll simply have his puppets change the constitution and appoint him for a life term. Don't laugh: he's probably thought about it and considered just how many wars and or terror alerts it will take to achieve.

We have to present a unified front and we have to kick their sorry asses out.

[AlGore-08.com]

26. So here's the serious, $50,000 question

If we are supposed to ignore people we don't agree with, how in the heck are we supposed to have serious political discussions? How on can we possibly have serious political discussions about which candidate to support any primary - - especially the coming Presidential primary?

It's perfectly legitimate to find Hillary Clinton's "plantation" remark inappropriate, and to question whether her use of that metaphor was part of a larger pattern of political cluelessness. Did anybody else see the Daily Show last night? Jon Stewart ran the clip of her saying it without much intro, and the audience gasped and groaned in disgust. The Daily Show audience is not full of Freepers. It's usually a friendly house for us. Yet, they did not applaud. They did not cheer "right on, Hillary - - finally a Democrat speaks up and speaks for me!" They gasped and groaned in disgust.

And Hillary's "plantation" remark has been used by the GOP to distract the media away from the substance of her speech - - and the substance of Al Gore's speech calling for a special council to investigate the Bush admin's illegal wiretapping.

Anybody who couldn't figure out ahead of time that the GOP would jump on that metaphor with both feet hasn't been paying attention to how the GOP spin machine has operated for the past FOURTEEN years. The metaphor wasn't necessary to the speech. She could have made the same point without using any metaphor - - or using a metaphor that wouldn't have set off the GOP "gotcha!" machine into overdrive.

So for her to use that metaphor means either:

1.) She really hasn't been paying attention to the smear tactics the GOP has been using for the last 14 years.
2.) She thinks she's immune to them
3.) Even though she knew this might set of the GOP attack machine, she let some idiot working for her convince her to say it
4.) She wanted the GOP to attack her, because it's part of her long term strategy to win support from us at the grassroots without moving to the left
5.) She wanted the GOP to attack her, because she had read the leaks about Gore's speech (and the leaks said he was going to lay out the legal foundation for impeachment of Smirk without actually calling for impeachment), and being the victim of a GOP attack was the only way she could upstage him and win support from the grassroots without actually moving to the left

[RoyGBiv]

33. A couple points ...

First, I see nowhere in my comment even any hint that we are supposed to ignore people with whom we disagree. In fact I made a point of saying Hillary is not my favorite politician, least of all my favorite Democrat, which implies rather pointedly that I have my own criticisms of her of which I am not afraid to voice. I did make a note of the fact that *I* don't involved myself in these threads *here* because they quickly devolve into flame wars. Discussion of the qualities, or lack thereof, of various representatives is never and should never be off-limits. Flame wars, however, are an entirely different animal. The moment someone calls me a bleeping idiot for any opinion I have expressed, the debate has lost all sense of purposefulness. Whether I am or am not an idiot is entirely beside the point. Does my opinion have any merit? Does yours have any merit? Those are the boundaries of discussion that lead to positive results. "You're a moron...no, YOU are" is not and never has been the kind of discussion in which I care to involve myself. I left that garbage behind prior to graduating high school.

N.B., since disclaimers seem to be necessary in discussions such as this one, I'll offer mine. None of the above is intended as a commentary on anything you have said to me here or elsewhere. It is a general observation. I have recently been called an enabler of the "stupid masses" for supporting living history presentations. No commentary was offered regarding why such presentations are bad, merely than I am an idiot for supporting them. 'Nuff (supposedly) said. The vast majority of "Hillary" threads in this forum I have witnessed follow the same pattern, a reenactment of Point - Counterpoint from the original SNL. "Jane, you ignorant slut." It's funny as farce. It's idiotic as a substitute for rational discussion.

Regarding the comment itself, if we have come to the point where our opposition unilaterally is given the power to determine the boundaries of debate, then we have already lost. I offer this opinion as a commentary on your suggestion that her making the plantation analogy was bad because it was obvious the Republicans would jump all over it. Of course they will jump all over it. They jump all over every comment made by any Democrat that in any way challenges the oh-so-comfortable bubble in which they and so many Americans have placed themselves, an environment in which the fantasy that race relations are positive, the poor are not oppressed, and those in authority are always right. Furthermore, when Democrats do come forward and challenge this administration on any level they are ignored almost entirely by the masses unless the comment made is genuinely provocative. What made headlines as a negative commentary on George Bush recently? Answer -- "George Bush doesn't care about Black people." Does he? Doesn't he? I don't know, personally, and if this were a corporate board room, I would say that making this suggestion was a less than diplomatic way of making a point. But this is not a corporate board room. We've played nice for decades. Nice doesn't work, not when "nice" means avoiding harsh realities just to get along. That may be a necessity of business relations. The US government is not a business. When its administrators are seething classist, racists, they need to be called to account, and pushing forth a metaphor that forces both these issues to the forefront, even if it is in the form of assaults on the speaker's character, serves a positive purpose.

More people than Hillary have called George Bush and his vassals a criminal. Even those in the MSM have done so. They are ignored. Hillary stood up, threw down a grenade, and let it explode. Was it a perfect analogy? Of course not. No analogy survives under close scrutiny. But it started a discussion. The moment right-wing propaganda machine pounced on her, she scored a victory for the simple reason that the question is now out there. Prior to this, no one dared even ask it.

I'm not naive. I know perfectly well she will be slaughtered in the mainstream press. That's for her to handle. I also know, from personal experience, people are talking about an issue they have not been allowed to talk about before.

[huskerlaw]

27. Bravo!!!

Like you, Hillary is not my favorite politician. She's done (or not done) some things that make her less than popular with me. But I was darn proud of her yesterday, and until I read your post I couldn't really explain why.

You are completely correct. It's not so much about what she said, though that does warrant some appreciation, it is about the reactions to it. As is the pattern for political commentary in this country, the content of her comments is not what's being debated. The discussion isn't intelligent, it's an attack. Ok, so she compared the Bush administration to a plantation. Why? Is it because she's obviously a racist? Because she's playing to the African Americans? For the shock value?

I don't know why she said it, and I DON'T CARE. The point is, if we were really having an intelligent political debate in this country, nobody would care. People aren't really shocked because she "played the race card," they're shocked because she absolutely called it the way it is. And if there's anything the general American public seems shocked by, it's hearing the truth.

We need to be talking about why hearing the truth coming out of the mouth of an elected official is so damn surprising. Why a speech that wasn't one big ball of political rhetoric was so completely out of the ordinary.

And why most of us never noticed that we do, in fact, live on a plantation.

[madokie]

28. I agree, I can't stand the goody two shoes who will piss on a dem just

because of a stand they have taken. No one can please everyone all the time, no one. just need to see the big picture, tearing down hillary is not helping the dems it is helping the re:puke:'s.
Edited to add: :kick:

[greiner3]

30. I agree;

Hilary showed why she is a US Senator with that speech. She's back on my good list. But one 'aw-shit' and she's off again! :rofl:

[Laelth]

31. Hillary is a team player.

What happened is obvious. The leadership (Dean, Reid, Pelosi) has decided that it's time for the party to attack. All the team players will get on the bandwagon now.

All I can say is, i's about time.

-Laelth

[RoyGBiv]

40. Ohhh...I like your sig pic ...

Consider it stolen. :-)

I also like your observation. It is about time.

[Laelth]

43. Thanks.

And you're welcome to the sig pic (for all non-commercial purposes, of course) ;)

:toast:

-Laelth

[jazzjunkysue]

32. Either way, right or wrong, good or bad, she can't win the presidency, so

I don't want her as our candidate.

you're all entitled to your own opinion of her, but she can't win. Period.

Keep her in the senate and run Gore/Edwards.

They're all a little right and wrong sometimes, but we've got to win.

[RoyGBiv]

34. Off topic ...

This thread is not and has not been about her viability as a Presidential candidate.

[jazzjunkysue]

35. Excuse me. I didn't know I had to have my message pre screened.

Who nominated you the police? Better stop reading, cause I doubt seriously if this is the only off topic thread reply on here. You're going to be pretty busy correcting everyone. Hope you don't have a life, or anything.

[RoyGBiv]

38. You've read the forum rules?

I assume so. There's a rule about hijacking threads. Obviously I'm not the police. I'm simply making an observation. You responded to me. I responded to you in a manner that declares I have absolutely no intention of engaging in a lengthy discussion of that subject here.

[Spiffarino]

36. Won't vote for her unless she's the last Dem standing, but...

...I have to agree. She brought her A-game this time.

I think the NSA spying has helped open the mouths of even the most careful Democrats. Gore's FDR-like speech was the opening shot in what will surely be a protracted and bloody fight. I hope the Democrats are ready to employ harsh tactics, because the Republicans have no scruples, endless resources, and are the worst kind of bullies. Ultimately, though, I think we'll win because they're yellow-bellied liars. The sheeple will finally see them for what they are.

[Generator]

37. I like and applaud what she said

and I pretty much can't stand Hillary and will not cotton to the fantasy that in even in any alternative universe she's gonna be president of this woman hating, sexist, backward thinking country especially when the votes can't even be verified.

That said, all the fucking media and the GOP attack lackies ever do is focus on one WORD and how outragous the WORD is and not whether it's premise is valid or not-it is. They are owning the subjective reality of our lives as it said on another site. I don't know how to win the war but saying the truth is a start. Fuck the media, fuck Mrs. Bush and fuck all of those asking for appologies. I'm mad as hell and I can't take it anymore. NOW that's what I want from the Dems, every damn day. They are ruining this country. They control everything and they are ruining it, from the Constitution on down. It's not about Hillary. It's about America.

When Dean says something controversal I don't ask that he take it back. Or Sharpton. Or Michael Moore. Or Kerry or anyone that speaks the truth even if it isn't pretty. Stop backing down from these bullies. They have NO MORAL ground for THEIR outrage.

WE DO.

[RoyGBiv]

39. Well said n/t

[bleever]

44. Well said.

She put it out there.

While people can dissect what her possible motives might have been, or jump on the "political correctness" (LOL) of her words, there is the fact that she came out and plainly said that this is likely the worst presidency in history, and that they brutally stamp out dissent.


Thanks for this well reasoned post.

[autorank]

45. I share your views on her and her comments. She stood tall today.

My opinion would be continually enhanced the more of this she does.

I'd like her to take on the "myth of the unpopular shrill woman politician." She ought to just kick ass, let loose. She's in New York. They love this. What's to lose.

Now that would be a site to see.

[bling bling]

47. Great post. Great points.

Kick for a good, reasonable, and intellectual discussion. I've enjoyed reading the points and comments made by almost everyone throughout the thread.

[Dr Fate]

48. She did on this issue. I applaud her. n/t

n/t