Tel Aviv: Thousands rally against war

[Scurrilous]

Thousands march in Tel Aviv to protest Lebanon fighting, call on soldiers to refuse taking part in war. Clashes with passersby erupt during event, activists called 'traitors'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3279792,00.html

<snip>

"Thousands of left-wing activists, including many Arab citizens, marched Saturday evening from the Rabin Square to the Cinematheque plaza in Tel Aviv in protest of the fighting in Lebanon. The protestors held up signs with slogans against the war and called for an immediate ceasefire.

According to the demonstrators, a prisoner exchange deal with Hizbullah must be struck, as well as a similar deal with Hamas. Marchers also urged IDF soldiers not to take part in the Lebanon operation, chanting: "Listen up, soldier – it's your duty to refuse." Other slogans recited by the participants were: "The occupation is a disaster, leave Lebanon now," "Olmert and Bush have struck a deal – to carry on with the occupation," and "Children in Beirut and Haifa want to go on living."

<snip>

"Former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni, who spoke in the demonstration, said that "the government has allowed the destructive powers of the army to drag us into the killing. The Defense Forces cannot be tuned into the army of occupation and killing. We must call in international forces, negotiate and make peace."

During the event, a counter-demonstration has formed across from the rally, and rightist protesters held up "Traitors, we are fed up with you" signs. Protesters also waved Israel flags and flags of the Golani Brigade.

A skirmish broke out between activists from both sides, while some infuriated passersby cursed the leftist protesters and called them, "Hizbullahniks." Others threw garbage bags at the activists and shouted: "A good Arab is a dead Arab," and "If only a rocket fell on you."

[Spazito]

1. Thank you for posting this, it is good to know the protests are

happening around the world. There are protests in Canada as well.

[cigsandcoffee]

2. Are they protesting Hamas in the Palestinian terroritories?

These Israeli protests serve to point out the differences as much as the scheduling of an Israeli gay pride parade - (a gay pride parade... in the Middle East!). Israel looks and acts like a democracy. Hamas and Hezbolla look and act like fundamentalist terrorist organizations.

We won't be seeing a gay pride parade under Hamas anytime soon, or any other sort of celebrated civil liberty. That's one of the many reasons our nation supports Israel.

[me b zola]

4. The protesters are calling for peace

Why does that bother you?

[cigsandcoffee]

5. It doesn't. It's nice to see a group in the ME calling for peace.

Most often, groups protesting in the ME wave machine guns around, burn flags or embassies, and celebrate destruction.

[treestar]

75. The OP is trying to change the subject

Like a five year old. He's doing it, too! He did it first!

You're supposed to think that because the media has not informed us of any peace protests in Arab countries, that it follows that all the Arabs are terrorists and deserve Israel killing them and that, as usual, Isreal is 100% in the right to kill whoever they want to kill.

Even though people in Israel itself are protesting it.

[Laughing Mirror]

6. The gay pride parade in Jerusalem was cancelled

Apparently you haven't heard.

[cigsandcoffee]

9. Sure I heard. And I'm not surprised it was cancelled.

What is surprising is that there is a scheduled gay pride parade in the fundamentalist pit of the Middle East. Thank God for Israel and the many progressives there, something sorely lacking in other ME countries.

Go try to have a Gay Pride parade in Syria or Iran. See what happens.

[Laughing Mirror]

14. Go try to have a Gay Pride parade in Israel and see what happens

Oh wait, we tried already, and we saw what happened.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. What? Israel has a vibrant gay community. Israel is, on the whole, more

socially liberal than many places in the States. Israel is pro-choice. Israel has emergency contraception available OTC, and pharmacists don't lecture women who want their pill prescriptions filled. Israel is at the forefront of the same kind of Stem Cell Research that Reverend Bush just vetoed. Israel has it's share of religious nuts- concentrated particularly in Jerusalem- but guess what? Local Muslim leaders as well as orthodox Jews were instrumental in keeping that parade out of that city.

... and what, exactly, happens to gay people in Iran, for example? Or in Saudi Arabia?

[Laughing Mirror]

61. Some Middle Eastern LGBT groups boycott World Pride in Jerusalem too

It's not just the fundies.

Here are the boycott statements from HELEM in Lebanon and ASWAT in Palestine. They were issued long before the current atrocities Israel is conducting in Lebanon.

HELEM from Lebanon statement

Jerusalem World Pride 2006:
No Pride in Occupation

World Pride is a global event that aims to bring together sexual minorities from all over the world in order to protest the continued discrimination and violence that they face legally, culturally, politically, and socially. Helem, Lebanese Protection for LGBT, supports the rights of all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people to love and live in freedom, and to demonstrate publicly to demand their rights. However, this July 2006, the unfortunate decision was made to hold World Pride in Jerusalem under the slogan "Love without Borders".

Helem supports the global movement to boycott Jerusalem World Pride 2006 as part of the international boycott of, and divestment from Israel. Helem strongly condemns holding World Pride in a city beleaguered by violence and conflict, and where the words "Love without Borders" belie a reality of separation, ubiquitous borders, destruction of homes and livelihoods, land theft, gross human rights violations, and the apartheid policies of Israel.

Human rights are universal, indivisible, and interdependent, and the rights of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgenders should not be placed in competition with the long struggle of the Palestinian people, including Palestinian LGBT people, for self-determination, for the right to return to their homes, and the struggle against apartheid and the occupation of their lands. Helem recognizes that all human rights violations are interconnected and that an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere. The fight for the rights of sexual minorities is therefore inextricably tied into the fight for all human liberation.

We would also like to state our support of the initiative organized by Aswat (Palestinian Gay Women) and other progressive Palestinian and international organizations, who offered an open invitation to those who decide to come to Jerusalem for World Pride to speak with LGBT Palestinians, visit unrecognized and demolished Palestinian villages, meet with anti-occupation activists, and join an alternative parade demonstrating against the apartheid wall.

ASWAT from Palestine statement

As Palestinian LGBTQI's who live under the occupation, and as Palestinian LGBTQI's who are part of a national minority in Israel, we are opposing this attempt to hold the international pride parade in Israel, particularly in Jerusalem, the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As the pride parade will be a time for the gay and lesbian community in Israel to celebrate, Palestinians in Eastern occupied Jerusalem will continue to suffer under intensified checkpoints, increasing racism, house demolishing, confiscating IDs and expanding of Israeli settlements.Therefore, ASWAT- Palestinian gay Women group decided not to take part in the World Pride 2006.

Even though, the state of Israel holds a tolerant stance towards gays and lesbians, it uses this opportunity to show the world that in Israel a gay man can also be a soldier. However, being a soldier in an occupying oppressive army does not do justice to our quest for peace and tolerance. This is an insult to our struggle for freedom and tolerance. In Israel, violence and hatred are articulated through homophobia and xenophobia, and this very same violence is evident in racism, occupation and war crimes.

In June 2002 Israel began building a wall that aims to separate Israel from the Palestinian population, however, the wall invades the heart of Palestinian localities, separating families and imprisoning them into ghettos. The wall is mostly built on the Palestinian lands, hence, constantly legitimizing the confiscation of large portions of Palestinian land, damaging the very weave of Palestinian life.

In both the first Intifada as well as the current one, Palestinian gays who escaped from their homes, find themselves working in the General Security Services in Israel (Shabak), where the Shabak took advantages of their situations and manipulated them to cooperate with Israeli intelligence. Eventually the Shabak returned many of them to Palestine where their rights were violated without due process....

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Okay. So I ask again. What happens to gay people in Iran?

What happens to gay people in Saudi Arabia?

So the gay Palestinians and gay Lebanese groups have a particular view of certain issues. I'm sure you could find gay Israelis who would tell you that the Palestinians could have had a state of their own many times from 1947 to 2000, if they could have accepted the existence of the state of Israel. I'm sure there are gay Israelis who will tell you about how they, too, have to worry that their families will be torn to shreds in a mall or at a falafel stand by a suicide bomber. That they will be attacked without provocation by organizations like Hezbollah, folks who consider Samir Kuntar a hero (and one worth the unprovoked kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers from Israeli territory-- to gain his "liberation".)

I'm opposed to the occupation, too. Have been for a long time. I was heartened by the victories peace-minded Israelis won in the 1990s. I was heartbroken when the peace process, driven along by the smart, capable, committed man we had in the White House back then, came so close to achieving a realistic, long-term solution--- only to fall apart when Arafat walked away from the table.

I'll tell you one thing, having watched the Israeli state of mind for many years: Leaving aside what's going on right now (I happen to think Israel is grossly overreacting to, nevertheless, a clear and deliberate Hezbollah provocation) ending the occupation of the West Bank & Gaza is going to require peace and full acceptance of the Nation of Israel by Israel's neighbors. And it's going to require that those neighbors behave like good neighbors, and not tolerate terrorists attacking from inside their territory.

The people who believe "peace", and "peace without borders" can only come at the expense of, and total elimination of, the State of Israel- they're entitled to their opinion; but excuse me if I don't happen to think it's a terribly "peaceful" and "peace-minded" point of view.

[Laughing Mirror]

66. I don't know what's happening to LGBT people in Iran & Saudi Arabia

If you do please report. Just like in most places around the world, I would imagine they are fighting terrible injustice and persecution there too.

[Laughing Mirror]

67. By the way, what about that doctor and his son abducted from Gaza...

by Israel on June 24? They were civilians in Gaza, outside of the theocratic state of Israel.

And one more thing, the two Israeli soldiers Hezbollah captured were not on Israeli "territory." The two soldiers were inside Lebanon, and Lebanon is not a territory of Israel. Not yet, anyway.

So, you have one country crossing the border to abduct two foreign civilians. You have another country capturing two foreign soldiers inside its own border. Is the abduction of two civilians from another country less of a crime than the capture of two foreign soldiers in one's own country? If so, show me in the rulebook on international relations where this is written.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. You have any sources to back that information up?

I mean this sincerely- I'd like to see them.

Saudi Arabia I know for a fact routinely puts gay people to death. I suspect the same is true for Iran, but I'm not positive.

[cigsandcoffee]

77. I read recently that some gays in rural Iran are drawn and quartered.

For those not in the know about gruesome punishments of the Middle Ages, that means they're tied to and then pulled apart by horses.

http://www.holisticwisdom.com/gays-iran.htm

A convicted homosexual could be stoned to death, drawn and quartered, beheaded, thrown off a cliff, burned alive or cut in two pieces with the remains burned. Against this chilling tradition and emotional threat, there are some groups focused on support for gay Iranians.

[Tom Joad]

19. Support Gay rights and not Palestinian rights? Like we have a right

to choose who is worthy of basic human rights? I think Everyone is.

During the cold war, the rightists would constantly bait those who would protest the Vietnam war with taunts much like yours. "You can't protest in Moscow". They were correct that many rights in Moscow were not respected. It was not, however, logical way to say that protests against the Vietnam war were not the right thing to do.

[helpman]

31. Go try and get married

In the US.

If you think gay people have freedom and rights in the USA.

You live in a theocracy - and in hardly the position to espouse moral nibblets to the rest of the world. All considering.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Gay people don't have the freedom to marry in the states. Unfortunately.

But they aren't routinely put to death, as they are in many Islamic countries.

I think there's a wee difference.

[CJCRANE]

63. I lived in a

muslim country where gay people could get married. Banning gay marriage only became a hot political issue in that country after it hit the mainstream in America.

People tend to forget that the whole world watches CNN (and listens to BBC World Service radio) so hot-button issues in the US can actually influence everyone.

[Tom Joad]

21. Israel bombs Arabs without regard to sexual identity, age,

gender identity, disability, political affiliation, education attainment, musical abilities, nation of origin. Everyone gets the chance to die!

In this sense, Israel is certainly does not discriminate!

[wordpix2]

40. uh, Israel is not the only one bombing innocent civilians of all types

[bdamomma]

54. yea, we bombed the hell out of Iraq also.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Um... just to be clear on this

Don't you mean "our government" rather than "our nation"? Last I checked I am also a citizen of this nation and I'm against this war. The United States is also a democracy (if an endangered one) and the fact that I can participate in a gay pride parade doesn't mean I support the Iraq war or any other conflict in which my government chooses to engage.

And BTW, just in case you've forgotten -- Lebanon had a fledgling democracy of its own. I say "had" because I doubt it will survive the destruction now taking place but what WILL take its place, perhaps, is a new generation of extremists from those who did not support Hezbollah before.

Finally, Hezbollah does not = Lebanon. It is the latter and its people who will be the real victims of this madness.

[Tom Joad]

18. You forget. Israel is an occupier, Palestine is occupied.

People see, rightly, the cause of the violence is the occupation.

[wordpix2]

41. OK, does this mean we should give back CA, AZ, NM & TX to Mexico?

[Tom Joad]

50. Does that mean we cannot militarily takeover Vancouver?

Yes, it does.

[Peace Patriot]

26. A good point--where are the Arab/Islamic peace protests against killing

Israeli civilians? Either they just don't happen, because they are not permitted, or (another possiblity, given our disinformation media), we don't get news of them. But the former is probably true--they are not allowed.

However, I am reminded of the U.S. and Israel's destruction of Iran's democracy in 1954, and their installation of the horrible Shah of Iran, who inflicted the Iranian people with 25 years of torture and oppression. That would tend to dampen democratic expression, don't you think? It's easy enough to condemn what we see NOW, of lack of democracy. But what led to it? We forget that.

Nobody likes to be ruled by mullahs (except maybe crusty old men). Iranian youth and women are chafing under the restrictions. But the truth is we drove the Iranian people into the arms of mullahs. As with Al Qaeda, WE created Islamic fundamentalism, in many important respects. We quite literally funded Al Qaeda. It was a CIA operation. And what else have we done to FOSTER Islamic fundamentalism among the desperately bullied peoples of the Middle East. Look at Saudi Arabia! These are Bush's buds--the Saudi sultans and the bin Ladens!

I was very interested in reports I read about what happened among the Shias in Baghdad just after the U.S. invasion. It appears that these were the only functioning communities for a time--and they were the poorest people in Baghdad. The Shias directed traffic, kept order, policed the streets, protected hospitals from Rumsfeld-empowered looters, provided water where it was needed. And I thought long and hard about this. I am not at all inclined to be sympathetic toward Islamic fundamentalism, but I began to understand how it worked, why it was needed, and what needs it was fulfilling, and I began to form a thesis about it, that it provides strong community cohesion in societies, and among peoples, whose natural development has been assaulted, fractured, prevented, stunted--often by western powers--and where highly corrupt governments in cahoots with western powers have denied self-determination and important components of self-determination such as good educational institutions. Islamic fundamentalists' highly dispersed, community based power structure is like the primitive village structure in Europe in the Middle Ages--after the breakup of the Roman Empire. The village (and its church!) provided stability, care for the poor and the sick, record-keeping, basic schooling (eventually), social life, identity, projects for the common good (mills, water works, roads), and so on. There was often no strong central government to provide these things, and many local barons were neglectful (off fighting the king's wars, or being courtiers? --when there even kings).

We westerners often condemn--or feel appalled by--the medievalism of some Islamic fundamentalist ideas, but we don't see how and why it is working for many millions of people. It is their safety net, and possibly also their way to the future. Boys may only read the Koran, but at least they are reading. And someone who can read can read OTHER things as well.

Anyway, you don't need to be so defensive about Israel. I admire and love the Israeli people, and I no more blame them for their government's actions (which I think are mainly driven by war profiteers), or for their identifying fear (they really are in a perilous and vulnerable position) than I blame my fellow Americans for the Bush junta. Americans may have freedom of speech, but we don't have freedom to choose or not choose war. That is obvious. Our government is also driven by war profiteers, and now they have the perfect mechanism to control us--electronic voting machines, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by Bushite corporations. What better mechanism for fascist control has ever been devised? We don't get a say any more. A recent poll posted here at DU showed EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT opposition among Americans to U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war. Yet we're about to be drawn into it by some Bushite-cocked up "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. (Mark my words.) We may have free speech, but we have zero control of our government. Are we any better off than the members of Hamas and Hezbollah? We women don't have to wear veils. What else? We have the "freedom" to be looted by the Bush junta.

Israel is in a different situation than we are--real peril on a daily basis. So I can't judge people living in that condition. But I can see that the Bush junta is using Israel (through Israel's bad leadership) to carry out their NeoCon/PNAC agenda by devious means--using Israel as the proxy instigator. Americans overwhelmingly disapprove of both the Iraq war and a wider war. And we're going to get it anyway. I can condemn Israel's leadership for doing this without hating Israelis or wishing that Israel didn't exist. And I don't need highly superficial comparisons of Israeli democracy to conditions within Hamas and Hezbollah regions. I know what the history is, on both sides.

Cigsandcoffee, you say that THIS is why the U.S. supports Israel, because Israel is a democracy, and its enemies are not. Aside from the facts of what we western powers have done to the democratic aspirations of Islamic people, how exactly would you describe the U.S. today, under the Bush regime--with the President of the U.S. freely breaking our laws, and violating the Constitution, and his toady Congress passing tax cut after tax cut for the super-rich, and building up a $10 TRILLION deficit at our expense? And what of our NON-TRANSPARENT, UNVERIFIABLE elections, recently wrought? Do you really think we have a democracy any more?

I don't. I'm fighting desperately to get it back (by activism on election fraud and election reform), but it's gone. We may never get it back. So I think this statement of yours is odious, and it breaks my heart. Our bad leaders and Israel's bad leaders have a common interest in war profiteering, territorial expansion and domination of the Middle East. And our leaders have killed our democracy in order to pursue this. This is what history will write--if there is a history. And I wonder if Israeli democracy will survive this--with Israel a tiny, walled in, armed fortress, bristling with armaments, in the midst of hostile neighbors--and egged on by the Bushite fascists to eke gain more territory by brutal means. It seems untenable to me. This is how democracies are lost--by militarism. Sparta lost theirs. So did Athens. So did Rome (the Republic anyway). So did everybody. Militarism and war profiteers end up eating you alive--which at first seem so easy, compared to the wisdom and patience needed for diplomacy.

Maybe the destruction of Beirut is just a Rovian ploy to add to their phony election narrative--for post-election "explanations" of their miraculous, comeback "victory" in November. Bush will be a diplomat and wave his royal hand, and hostilities will cease. Maybe it won't mean full conflagration in the Middle East (the NeoCon/PNAC agenda). Or maybe they'll save that for later. Who knows what will happen in the Bush junta's insane world? But one thing I know, Israel has made a bad bargain. They have allied with a despised fascist regime--one that many of us are determined to de-throne. And they now have Bush militarists and fascists as their only ally in the world. And I am hoping against hope that the Israeli people will wake up and realize that they have been led down the wrong road, and I hope they still have a transparent election system and a democracy when they do.

[Mythsaje]

29. and lest we forget...

GW's poisonous "axis of evil" statement, that gave the hardliners the political capital to take back Iran from the reformers...

I don't think that was accidental. I really don't. Iran as an enemy is a lot more politically useful than Iran as a burgeoning democracy.

[Karenina]

38. FABULOUS, FABULOUS, FABULOUS POST!

:loveya::yourock::loveya::yourock::loveya:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Excellent points

I, too, have heard it said of a number of Middle Eastern countries, that the Islamic fundamentalists provide a social safety net. For example, in countries where public education is non-existent or requires payment of high fees, the fundamentalists offer free schooling at their madrassas. They distribute food to the unemployed and health care to the sick. They act as informal judges and juries for people who have no access to their country's legal system.

[bdamomma]

55. Peace Patriot

I want to give you this:

:applause:

[BrklynLiberal]

58. Superb post. Well thought out and well said. What govt does is not

necessarily what the people of that country want!!! As we all know....

I wish I could give your post a recommendation.
:thumbsup: :hi:

[wordpix2]

39. no because Arab protestors would be sent off on trains, never to return

[CJCRANE]

62. Some protesters might get shot

as has happened many times in arab countries (and other countries too) but being taken away on trains..?

[cantstandbush]

3. They better be careful. Their own govenment will hit them with a missile

and blame it on Hezbollah.

[ellisonz]

25. No they won't.

n/t.

[CatholicEdHead]

7. How many showed up for the counter-protest?

And how many porta-potties did they bring with them? ;)

[wtmusic]

8. "A good Arab is a dead Arab"

What do these people think is going to happen when Muslims outnumber Jews in Israel?

[cali]

12. self-delete

[Selatius]

23. That's an example of bigotry, that quotation.

It should be ferreted out the same way any other form of bigotry should be ferreted out and revealed for what it is: Complete inhumanity and stupidity.

[lumpy]

43. Must be frustrating for the anti-war

protesters to hear that sort of bigotry since many of the protesters are Israeli/Arabs.

[wordpix2]

44. Well, the madrasses teach Arab children to hate, too and that's why we're

in the mess we're in---both sides are accountable.

[wtmusic]

46. Identical on both sides

What can make it stop? We need a figure, a leader of stature, of intelligence, of compassion on the world stage to bring everyone back to their senses.

Where's Ghandi when you need him?

[cantstandbush]

10. They have more sense and courage than most people in US. nt

[lonestarnot]

11. Peace Fire damn it!

[LostinVA]

15. According to some people's logic, this means these Israelis must be

anti-semitic... I mean it, this isn't flamebait at all. Will those here have the nerve to call these brave and proud Israelis traitors? SElf-loathing? They seem to be quite absent from this thread.

Good for their actions and words.

[meti57b]

17. That isn't flame bait, ... it's straw man.

[LostinVA]

24. No, it isn't

[NuttyFluffers]

68. there should be a list of overused discussion-ending labels. :)

some of my favorite in the recent past:

straw man
ad hominem
anti-semitic
(these are a distressing trio, i don't like them being overused. the only reason red herring isn't on the list is because there's still some confusion on how to apply it so it isn't tacked on every other topic.)
---------------
blame-america-first (just patently silly)
{pretty much anything politically left -- oh how i long for the return for commie pinko dirtbag to return to prominence, it's the one that makes me laugh most}
dreamer (this one makes me sad, and even i've used it before, it's so prevalent... hope that's currently inspiring action shouldn't be snuffed out so easily)


any others to the list?

[NuttyFluffers]

69. we should focus our thoughts and energies on this

such beautiful acts of peace, in a land starved for it, can only bring more of the same. the more intent and consciousness poured into acknowledging the good can only be a light in the current darkness swallowing that land. ... we could use a little more visible peace protest love here again, too! ;)

[jonnyblitz]

27. somebody claiming to be from Israel logged on last week

to comment on an article posted about a small group of protestors in Israel (2000 or so) and he said that those protestors were not normal liberals (paraphrasing), calling them fringe loonie anarchists, etc. He said most liberal types there have been radicalized by suicide bombers and such and they tend to be more supportive of a more (paraphrasing here)aggressive approach. In other words he came here, claiming to be a normal israeli leftest, to demonize the protesters as fringe.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

16. Over 600 IDF members have refused to serve in Palestinian territories

Here's a partial list of those who have signed a letter refusing to serve beyond the 1967 borders out of principle and for peace. It seems to me there might be more dissent in Israel itself regarding its policies than in the United States.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

[Spazito]

20. Very interesting, thanks for posting this! n/t

[bullimiami]

22. the few. the brave. the sane.

[understandinglife]

28. As it should be ....

What will more killing accomplish .... except big bonuses for those who sell weapons and those who preserve their stature through fear ...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/understandinglife/637


Peace.

[EFerrari]

30. This is how we do it. Do not buy into the the NeoCons.

Do not make your enemy into an abstraction.

Bombs are not diplomacy.

Thank you, peaceniks in Israel. You are the bright future of your nation.

[Imajika]

32. Running around with hammer and sickle flags..

...makes them look like fringe nuts.

I would like to see what the rally really looked like without the media hand picking a select few images for me. How many of the participants were really anarchists, misfits or fringe folks, versus how many were ordinary every day Israeli's that just believe the Israeli government policy is wrong. The media always tend to show the most radical elements of these peace protests, and those images tend to condemn the rally to being viewed as a bunch of wacko extremists to the majority of citizens seeing it on TV.

Note to peace rally organizers - keep the communists and anarchists away (or at least keep them from bringing banners and flags). Note to US peace rally organizers - ditch International ANSWER, never let them anywhere near a peace rally ever again as Americans will never find common cause with North Korea, the Cuban 5, Mumia or any of these sorts of side issues.

[Peace Patriot]

36. I like the fringes. They always have something interesting to say.

And the Jews were once fringes in Europe--excluded, weird, different, segregated, scapegoated, given no voice, relegated to "unchristian" professions, beaten, robbed and driven out in pogroms, and ultimately slaughtered in death camps. That's what marginalization and fringe-ification leads to. I don't give a rats ass for "mainstream America." It doesn't exist. We're all fringes now--except for the CENTER (ahem...), rightwing 'christian' bigots, witch-burners, book-burners, haters of gays, brown immigrants, uppity women and ragheads. Them and the multi-billionaires. If you want to appeal to Mr. and Mrs. Mainstream, how about public hangings?

When the 20% of our population who have always been stupids, and the preachers who rob and manipulate them, are touted by multi-billionaires as the "mainstream," there is nothing the majority of sensible progressives can do to ameliorate them, or to influence public policy.

So I'm for a real Leftist policy: dismantling the bad actor global corporate predators and seizing their assets for the public good; 90% cut in the military budget, down to a real defensive posture (remove the temptation to fascists of wars of choice); amnesty for all non-violent offenders in the prison-industrial complex; decriminalization of all recreational drugs--and with the money gained from these, and from fair taxation, put our broken country back together again.

Fringe? Yup. But if we ever do restore our right to vote, things will likely be so bad by then, that a few, well thought out, fringe ideas might just start to look real good to most people, and they might just think, "Why the hell not?" (Remember--they called Social Security "communist"!)

[Fountain79]

47. I would have to strongly disagree with you...

but I have a feeling I would disagree with you on most fronts. Why some protesters feel the need to carry the hammer and sickle and flags of truly repressive nations is a mystery to me. These aren't nations I want to emulate, that includes the highly touted governments of Cuba and Venezuela. Personally I think your sentiment is no different than a right winger who claims there are only conservatives and liberals left.

[Peace Patriot]

53. Hey, Fountain79, why can't you just appreciate people, and dig what

they're carrying and what they have to say, and if you don't agree, move on? Why does there have to be exclusion? That's what the previous poster was suggesting--weed out all the weirdos. Well, one person's weirdo may be another person's Thomas Jefferson! Who are we to go spewing our disapproval, and getting all huffy at someone who thinks the Cuban revolution was a good idea?

And, by the way, do you know anything about Venezuela? I recommend www.venezuelanalysis.com. It's favorable to Chavez and the Bolivarians, but it's well written and provides a good overview, as well as perspectives that we will never be exposed to by our war profiteering corporate news monopolies.

If you are knowledgeable about Venezuela, my apologies, but I most often hear dissing of Venezuela from people who don't know much about it. (It's the corporate news monopolies. We all suffer from it. They get into our heads, and, if we're not real alert, we tend to accept their views in a default, unconscious sort of way.)

[Imajika]

56. I agree with very little you've posted here...

...in particular this gem:

"amnesty for all non-violent offenders in the prison-industrial complex"

This is perhaps one of the dumber ideas I've read on DU lately. So by all non-violent offenders you mean we will be releasing many of the following:

- a whole host of white collar criminals such as friends of Ken Lay and other corporate crooks
- those convincted of all sorts of fraud
- those convicted of various bribery, blackmail and embezzlement
- those convicted of stalking women

the list goes on and on.

Ummm, do you really want to let people convicted of this kinda stuff out of prison so we can break the "prison-industrial complex"?

Not a wise idea I'd say and, thankfully, a surefire loser of a political position.

Here's the bottom line, communism has never worked anywhere ever. It is a colossal failure of an economic model. Most people recognize this absolute fact. Have a bunch of goofballs running around with communist flags at your rally and most people who see that footage will assume the demonstration is made up of a bunch of morons.

I will repeat, keep the communists and anarchists away from any rally you'd like the masses to take seriously.

[jonnyblitz]

42. you sound like you have a problem with people who don't

fit your definition of normal. I guess you assume most people are as narrow minded and judgemental as you seem to be . Hell, my republican parents don't sound as bad as you do.

[AntiFascist]

57. I can understand why...

"anti-communists" AKA fascists want war, but I don't understand why those who want peace badly enough to demonstrate necessarilly must be communists or anarchists. Does that mean anyone who is sick of bombing,death, and fearing for their life must necessarilly turn anarchist? This is ridiculous, although if pushed to the extreme I can see where anarchy may hold a solution.

[Selatius]

60. A lot of Anarchists prefer non-violent means of resistance.

It only takes one who resorts to violent methods to make 100 of them look bad.

[malaise]

33. Same in London today

Good to see this.

[Peace Patriot]

37. Kudos and laurel wreaths to Israeli anti-war protesters!

I remember the ugly, bigoted faces of white southerners in the civil rights marches in the '60s. Screwed up, gargoyle faces. Dirty mouths. That's what someone does when they are wrong, when they have bad motives, and they know it deep down, but they are in the thrall of mob psychology. Their demons come out. It's a very sad thing to witness in human beings. And it's hard to maintain your calm, your peacefulness and your love of humanity when you are being reviled by such people. It is all the more remarkable when the protesters know that they are representing an unpopular opinion, and will be spat upon, and yelled at, and even harmed--and still bravely stand up for what they feel is right.

Frankly, I don't know if I'd have the courage to stand up for peace in Israel at this moment. I hope I would. But I don't know. And I am awed by those who have done so. May they be safe! May they be blessed! And may their wisdom prevail!

[AntiFascist]

45. This is great news...

Israeli Jews and Arabs marching together to protest their government's action. I suspect that this is only the tip of an iceberg, that there must be a growing number of Israelis who want peace as badly as many in Lebanon.

[rodeodance]

48. yes, it is wonderful. These prptestors are very brave.

[mogster]

49. K & R - this is important

It is very important to keep the visibility of these demonstrators high, they do deserve a voice, Israel is also theirs.

This is priceless:
"During the event, a counter-demonstration has formed across from the rally, and rightist protesters held up "Traitors, we are fed up with you" signs."

The Israeli fundies are starting to look increasingly like the US fundies. Or the Norwegian fundies, or any other fundie around the world.
A recent poll in Yedioth Ahronoth said 17% of Israelis did not favor a military response to the hostage taking, and think Israel should start negotiations.
A majority supports the military actions, but still. 17% is a lot of people.

[Canuckistanian]

52. What are they, anti-Semites?

Everyone knows that Israel needs to "defend itself".

K&R.

[cali]

70. What a stupid

unneccessary and inflammatory remark. Instead of just saying 'good for them', or that's heartening, you feel compelled to pre-emptively throw out that comment, which is no different than someone falsely bringing up antisemitism where it doesn't exist. Way to go.

[Canuckistanian]

71. Sorry, forgot the *SARCASM* tag

I thouroughly and completely agree with them.

[cal04]

59. Anti-war Tel Aviv rally draws Jewish, Israeli Arab crowd

More than 2,500 people on Saturday attended a demonstration against the war in Lebanon, marching from Tel Aviv's Rabin Square to a rally at the Cinemateque plaza.

The rally was the first of its kind protesting against the IDF's offensive in Lebanon. Unlike previous anti-war protests in israel, major Arab organizations in Israel - among them Hadash and Balad participated in the event in large numbers.

(snip)
The protest drew some new faces, like Tehiya Regev of Carmiel, whose two neighbors were killed in a Katyusha attack on the city. "This war is not headed in the right direction," she told Haaretz; "the captured soldiers have long since been forgotten, so I came to call for an immediate stop to this foolish and cruel war."

The rally, which received wide international press coverage, had a theme unfamiliar from previous demonstrations here. Beside the usual calls for the prime minister and defense minister to resign, this was a distinctly anti-American protest. Alongside chants of "We will not kill, we will not die in the name of Zionism" there were chants of "We will not die and will not kill in the service of the United States," and slogans condemning President George W. Bush.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741404.html

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. this is wonderful news.

I realize they have a minority opinion at this time. But it is still wonderful news.

[veness]

72. K & R! Peace... n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. good news

[treestar]

74. Gee, I wonder what these anti-Semites who favor terrorists are

doing living in Israel.


:sarcasm::sarcasm:

Don't they think they have a right to defend themselves?
:sarcasm:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

78. It's good to see the Israeli peace movement showing the government

that they don't want war in their name.

79. Yes, Israel must change their policy from inside

Good to see.

[porphyrian]

80. Kick for those who think everyone in Israel is the same. - n/t