I Don't Like Bigotry

[cali]

And that's why I'm writing this. There have been several posts concerned about false charges of antisemitism thrown out. Good to talk about.

I'm concerned about the number of very real antisemitic comments I've seen, both out and out stupid ugly comments, and some pernicious subtext stuff. Threads have been locked and comments deleted by the score. I've been shocked at some of the remarks.

I've commented repeatedly, within existing threads, and many of my remarks are not responded to, or are responded to by people who have felt hurt by some of the comments. Thus, this thread.

Here are some examples of out and out ugly comments:

"Time to end Abramization of our Government"

"The American Jew President"

"Bob Dylan is a heeb"

"Joe Lieberman, jew-boy"

"Sick Jews who support Israel"

The classic accusation that Israel was responsible for 9/11
and warned Jews to stay away.

A thread that essentially questioned the loyalty of American Jews, which Skinner thankfully locked with the comment that it was shameful anyone had posted it.

Accusations that Israel has taught the American military how to be bad actors.

Accusations that Jews control the U.S. government.

A thread that advocating "Eradicating Israel", and moving all the Jewish citizens.

Here are some examples of indifference to antisemitism:

Posting articles by Buchanan and disregarding the fact that he is an antisemite (he's also a racist and a homophobe) Would you post something by David Duke on, say, affirmative action?

Posting articles that accuse Jews of collaborating with the Nazis. Never happened and one article severely misquoted Hannah Arendt, and took remarks she made out of context.

Referring to zionism as a virus. There's lots of ways to say you disapprove of zionism. That's not one of them. Why? Because the Nazis referred to Jews as a virus.

There's more, but that's a pretty good representation of some of the noxious stuff that's been posted; and no it can't all be credited to disruptors. I also want to note that there's stuff I think is borderline, such as accusations that Israel is committing genocide that though I disagree with, I don't see as antisemitism.

I want to thank the mods: I know the rules about not calling people on comments like the ones above, but I have responded to many of them, and not only by alerting. I've thought it important to not sail by these comments and to call people on their bigotry. For the most part the mods have left my responses to these comments standing. I appreciate that, and I appreciate the alacrity they've demonstrated in getting rid of this crap.

Furthermore. I have no more use for anti-Arab bigotry. Calling Hezbollah members slime is bigotry, and it has no place here either. Remarks that the Lebanese deserve the death and destruction brought down on them are disgusting, and demonstrate the sentiment that those lives are worth less than Israeli lives.

I've participated for quite a while on the I/P forum, and there are several very pro-Palestinian posters, but I've never seen anything like the stuff I've seen the past week, or the insensitivity that's been exhibited.

Finally, I abhor the Israeli bombing and invasion of Lebanon. I know that it's about more than two captured/kidnapped/abducted/whatever, soldiers, but even if it had been ten soldiers, and even if the rockets had taken a higher toll of Israeli lives, I'd find it a vastly disproportionate response. Despite having expressed this frequently, I've been called an apologist for Israel on more than one occasion. Objecting to bigotry is not a defense of Israel's actions.

[Monkeyman]

1. Bigotry has no place here or anywhere

I think you will see a Rove plan very soon here

[jonnyblitz]

2. outstanding post. recommended. nt

[cali]

7. Thanks, Jonny

I know we often disagree, but I really admire the open mind you bring to the table.

[jonnyblitz]

27. I can be over the top sometimes. I am just angry like everybody

else, I suppose. please don't take anything personal if i am a snark because you know, at the end of the day, we are on the same page pretty much.

[cali]

108. definitely a neccessary one and

when I see stuff like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1718588&mesg_id=1718759

I know it's time to resurrect this thread.

[readmoreoften]

3. K & R

[Solly Mack]

4. Thank you for your words

I've noticed in many threads that real dialogue gets bogged down by the piling on of bigoted remarks.

It's almost like some people don't really care about the situation - they're just hoping to get a bigoted comment in. Unleashing their prejudice and giving it full reign.

[SmokingJacket]

5. I totally agree.

I'd like to think the anti-Semitism and anti-Arab bigotry comes from trolls, but...

The mods are doing a good job, I think, but it's crazy times. Might be time to take another DU break.

I just have the sinking feeling things are likely to get worse before they get better.

[DanCa]

6. Agreed

I also got the feeling that "some" people are trolls just trying to stir the pot so that people wont vote for us come in November. I am not saying everyone mind you I am saying some.

[Monkeyman]

8. Yep

Did you ever think Rove has plants in the DU just to split us

[DanCa]

11. I dont know if there are " official GOP plants"

or kids who are doing this by themselves, but I am sure that there are people here that are stoking the fire. Hell we were squashing the gop in the polls before the I/P crisis. It makes you wonder why the repukes need diebold when they sing the song of division so well.

[dufrenne]

18. Anti-semitism

on the left is not a conspriacy. It's a very real thing on campuses and among academics. While there maybe trolls, it is not at all suprising that people let their hatred of Israel vis a vis Palestine (a known left wing cause) to cross into anti-semitism.

[DanCa]

28. I am not saying it isn't a real thing

I am just saying that there are probably lurkers on this site who want to divide us. And they are using the Israel Palestine crisis to stoke the fires of division. Now in all honestly I don't understand the I/P crisis. It's too big for me to comprehend. I just want the killing to stop.

[JackNewtown]

93. anti-Semitism is not endemic to the left

There is plenty of it on the right and among centrists as well. It is all too common in this world. :scared:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

26. Yes indeed

Israel is wrong in this instance. Live with it - deal with it

[Redstone]

30. No, YOU are pathetic. What the fuck is a

"schematic propaganda joust" anyway? Sounds like dog piss on wet cement to me.

I know the OP a LOT better than you do. That was a heartfelt and balanced post (unlike most of mine, I'll admit). I wish I could express myself as well as the OP does.

Are you SURE this is the right place for you? Generally, DUers are the kind of people who will respond positively to a well-thought-out and well-written post, even if they don't entirely agree. I KNOW that several of the people who replied in th affirmative to this post are not in favor of Israel at all, but they're intelligent and gracious enough to appreciate a fair and honest post.

Redstone

(Folk, I know I said I'd stay out of this, but the original post was so good, I had to say so and recommend it. And THIS post is so sleazy, I couldn't resist either.)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

52. Personally,

I'm glad you're still here reading and posting occasionally, Redstone. Hope you were able to get some rest, though.

[Redstone]

69. Well, I'm not taking sides anymore, but I simply cannot let that kind

of bullshit go unanswered.

Furthermore, that clown NEVER responds to any responses to his posts.

Just my opinion, but if you're going to post something that inflammatory, you ought to have the guts to stick around and defend yourself.

Redstone

[Quantess]

75. Maybe he hasn't discovered the "my DU" page yet?

He's so new, it's possible...

[Redstone]

77. Before I found the "my DU" icon (it took me a while), I would remember

at least the last couple of threads I had posted, and I'm a notorious scatterbrain.

Redstone

[The Straight Story]

81. Sadly, RedStone

Some people work to find negative in everything.

An example I posted the other day - you can find some nuns who helped many people and applaud them and their work but someone will jump right in and talk about all the bad catholics have done - and claim anything good mentioned is hype and propoganda.

I think the OP was pretty much spot on.

[barb162]

87. Bravo, Redstone

[cali]

38. Care to comment on the

examples I posted?

Oh, and I didn't bury anything. My focus was primarily on the antisemitic comments I've seen. If you, or anyone else, wants to do a post focusing on anti-Arab sentiment on DU, that would be a worthy thing.

[acmejack]

54. That was a timely post.

I will remind the Op gently, gently, that the paragraph about he anti arab bias is something that I was castigated by the OP for not so long in reverse. Remember? I was taken to task for "lack of balance?" See how easy it is for that to happen, despite one's best intentions? Just saying.

I don't need to be flamed again by the superior firepower here, I still feel there is more than enough blame to go around.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

58. I think the ratio

between anti-Jewish and anti-Arab sentiment on this particular issue is slanted towards more anti-Jewish sentiment, and it's something I'm a bit attuned to.

But cali, I was surprised by some of the anti-Jewish remarks. I knew a Jewish girl who was friends to everyone at my high school-and I was basically a social isolate. But I was still invited, along with other girls in my class, to her home. She was generous to a fault, and had a great sense of humor. There were a lot of Jewish kids in my high school class, and they didn't tend to go into school politics. I heard from many of them a few years ago when we celebrated our 35th reunion. One heads a foundation helping find cures for diabetes (Hi Ted!), another is an artist, another a social worker. Not really different from anyone else. My personal relationships with Jews have belied any anti-semetic sterotype I've ever heard.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

41. Indeed, it WAS a nice try

and evidently completely lost on you. "Schematic propaganda joust"? That is probably the most inane phrase I've ever seen here on DU and that's saying something.

The OP led with opinion, of course. And then put in a caveat. Are you counting words? Letters?

You claim the writer is "creating a front." You read minds?

This was a well-balanced post by a person who feels passionately about a very difficult issue. And I think that your response is proof positive that the OP was spot on.

Enjoy your stay here at DU. We're a tighter group than you might imagine.

And try as I might I can't figure out the dog piss metaphor. Just put the bong down and get some fresh air, will you? You aren't making a lot of sense and you're going to hurt yourself.

[Redstone]

50. All right, Grannie!

That was great.

Redstone

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. Thanks. That post was just too bizarre not to comment on.

Where's the frog?

[immoderate]

88. Just one suggestion.

Seems more likely you should have advised him to pick up the bong. Pot heads don't sound like that. (It's a different kind of stupid. Hfffffffht!:smoke:) Maybe he's on meth.

--IMM

[TallahasseeGrannie]

104. You know, you're correct

as I was writing it I was thinking..if he was really sucking on the bong he'd be way more mellow. I'm inclined to think he had a buzz on.

[immoderate]

105. Meth seems more the drug of choice for the Bush administration.

In fact, it could explain a lot.:think:

--IMM

[Violet_Crumble]

48. Yr mistaken...

Cali didn't bury anything in their post. Cali and I have bickered in the past in the I/P forum over a variety of things, but on this one they're spot on. I've seen firsthand where Cali has reacted in the same way to bigotry against Arabs and Muslims as they have to bigotry against Jews and Israelis...

The examples Cali gave in their post were clear examples of bigotry. They've got nothing to do with criticism of Israel's actions in Lebanon and it's disgusting that people say, let alone think, that sort of poisonous garbage. I fail to see where pointing that out is part of a schematic propaganda joust, and I for one will find it very amusing to be accused of peddling pro-Israel propaganda etc for pointing out that what Cali posted was something that needed to be said and was said in a very articulate and thoughtful way by someone who isn't one of the silly folk who only give a shit about bigotry when it's aimed only at one group and not another....

[cali]

57. Thanks, Violet

Now let's get back to bickering over in I/P- which I'm beginning to appreciate in a way I never did before.

[nam78_two]

106. huh?

>For the rest of it - I have seen ample amounts of pro-Israeli propaganda on this board - with the

>pinch... of those that dare criticise are labelled Nazis.

I think the OP was making a point about the tone of criticism.

And yes, if someone chooses to criticize the Israeli government's actions by questioning the loyalty of American jews (wtf? I didn't know far-right, Stormfront conspiracy theorists posted here), calling someone "jew boy" etc. they ARE at least sounding like racist Nazis, even if they arent necessarily so.
And you don't have to be jewish to pick up on bigotry.


I am not jewish and I think what Israel is doing right now is insane, but I think there are ways to express such opinions without sounding like a bigot.




Kudos to the OP...everything in there sounds like the stuff routinely said on the message boards of those crazy white supremacist websites- 9/11 was the work of 'those jews', they own america blah blah. There opinions should not be awarded with a shred of respect.

[MissWaverly]

10. yes, I am now posting as save the children

Let's save the children of both sides through real diplomacy, if we have to send Clinton
let's do it, whatever works, we as Americans are resourceful enough to do this.

[izzie]

12. Do you think saying you do not like what Israel is doing to

The people of Lebanon is a bad statement? I frankly do not care what they do to terrorist but I sure do not like what I see is happening to the people of Lebanon. I find it is the same as I do not like what I see happening to the people of Iraq by our army. It sounds a little like if you say anything even a little off about Israel it is as bad as saying your anti-American if you say a thing about American you do not like. Please make sure you are talking about being a real nut and not just not liking a policy or something a country is doing. Some of your statements you said were made are real nuts.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. well done...

"Posting articles by Buchanan and disregarding the fact that he is an antisemite (he's also a racist and a homophobe) Would you post something by David Duke on, say, affirmative action?"

Sadly, some here think this IS appropriate. I wonder how African-American posters would react to seeing a post at DU by David Duke with several DU'ers cheering on his "position" as correct, "even a broken clock is right twice a day," and several recommendations placing it on the front page of DU? I am guessing it would go over like a fart in a diving suit!

On edit: Another thing to keep in mind, just because a poster has a Magen David avatar doesn't automatically mean they hate Arabs or Muslims, no matter what s/he posts, anymore than someone with a crescent and star are automatically anti-Israel or anti-Semitic!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

60. Your on edit is correct

Thanks for posting that bit.

[Behind the Aegis]

62. For you...

anything!

:hug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

67. Your avatar

always makes me remember how many suffered under the Nazis-Jews, homosexuals, and so many others, including the daughter of the founder of my Sufi Order, Noorunisa Khan.

[Behind the Aegis]

70. And without you sharing your knowledge...

...I would have never known the name, Noorunisa Khan, or what she did and how she died!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. .

:rofl:

On edit: "I have posted repeatedly the connection between Bush and his supporters that we cannot name here for fear of being banned."

And which "...supporters that we cannot name here for fear of being banned" whould they be? :eyes:

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. are you certain it is we who have been blinded?

On edit: to your edit: :rofl:

[mhr]

Quite Sure!

eom

[dufrenne]

32. Wow

now the jewish lobby is in control of DU...It's amazing the power those rich stinking jews yield. Yes, part of the jewish consipracy that has existed for centuries, as Nazis pointed out.


I hate to burst your bubble, but you are an anti-semite mhr - through and through.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

46. You're not referring to Lord Voldemort and

his evil minions, I take it.

[mhr]

49. Bingo - Cali Gets The Prize!

eom

[cali]

61. Restraint is not such a bad

thing, and DU is a private enterprise. Don't like the rules, you can find another site, where you can talk about the Jews to your heart's content. I'd prefer to think that you might reflect on why so many of your comments have been deleted. Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll have a change of heart.

[dufrenne]

17. I don' think anyone

is saying that you can't criticize Israel, but making anti-semitic remarks while doing so is the problem. To make it clear for some people, substitute Israel for Nigeria, for example, and "jews" for "blacks" and see if people have a problem.

[jonnyblitz]

31. how can you argue that the examples cali cites aren't pretty

blatant? You are correct that the false charges are too often thrown around, or implied , but there are *actual* cases that some have blurted out like a fart in church. IF you read my posts you can hardly call me a supporter of the Israeli government. I understand exactly what you are talking about but, seriously, Cali is correct in her OP. she seriously doesn't fall into that catagory.

[cali]

51. Just try and answer this:

What do you think of the examples I posted? Do you think any of those statements are justifiable?

[cgrindley]

16. Totally agree

Anti-semitism is most glaring when its authors attempt analogies comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, or perpetuate stereotypes and historical nonsense that is three quarters of the way along a road that only leads to the Protocols. It's troubling for sure, and I think one of the reasons that perhaps some people seem happy to adopt knee jerk anti-Israeli sentiments is simply because the Repukes support Israel. I'm sure that the Repukes support kittens, but that doesn't mean that we should automatically favor dogs.

[Cyrano]

19. Great post, cali.

Although I've read some of these threads, I've stayed away from posting to them. Maybe I'm naive, but I never saw or expected so much hatred expressed on DU on any topic (other than Bush and his gang of thugs).

We know that anonymity gives many people the ability to express views they wouldn't otherwise voice. ButI'm both disappointed and disgusted at the venom this issue has unleashed.

I don't think your post will change any minds, but thank you for stating what needed to be said. So many here need a reminder of the meaning of decency and tolerance.

K&R

(edited for spelling.)

[Master Mahon]

20. Right! Neither do I

and that includes bigotry of ALL TYPES..., race, sex, religion, weight, etc. etc...

[sgxnk]

102. spandex

i don't think fat people should wear spandex in public

does that make me a lipophobic?

just need clarification on my potential bigot status :l

[oberliner]

23. Agreement and Question

First, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments of the OP.

Here is my question:

Do you find that you run into the same sorts of ugly and bigoted comments when discussing I/P issues with people face to face or is it just something you've observed at DU and other online forums?

[cali]

64. Perhaps it's that I have

an enlightened group of friends and acquaintances, and perhaps it's that i live in Vermont, but I have never encountered this kind of thing with people face to face, not in my Peace & Justice group, not in I/P seminars i've been to; I, thankfully, have never had to deal with it. Online forums are a different kettle of fish; as others have mentioned anonymity definitely plays a role.

[Redstone]

24. Absolutely terrific. Wonderfully balanced. I simply CANNOT believe

that there is anyone at DU who is stupid enough to actually believe that "...classic accusation that Israel was responsible for 9/11 and warned Jews to stay away."

That had to have been a mole or a troll. God, I hope so. I'd hope any DUer would be smarter than that, even if they don't like Israel or Jewish people.

Again, excellent post. I'll hit the recommend button as soon as I finish typing this.

Redstone

[k_jerome]

45. see above in this very thread my friend. i too am in disbelief. nt.

[Redstone]

56. Yeah, I saw it, and replied. What a bozo.

Redstone

[cali]

53. Thanks, Redstone

Just thanks.

[Redstone]

71. You deserve every word of praise in this thread.

Redstone

[partylessinOhio]

25. I don't like war and one-sided slaughter.

For example: Why does Israel have 470 attack planes? Isn't that extreme overkill?


Many people will think poorly of a group of people that are showing such disregard for others and human life.

Why should those that use their brains to think be labeled with all kinds of names because they are reaching different conclusions about what has happened to our country and the world?

[cgrindley]

34. So why would you only mention Israel in your post?

It's a pretty two sided affair if you ask me.

[cali]

43. Of course it's valid

to question Israel's having 470 attack planes, and it's valid to criticize the foreign aid we keep pouring into Israel, and the brutal occupation, and much else.

But that's not what my OP addressed. We musn't conflate valid criticism of Israel with antisemitism, and we musn't countenance real antisemitism. I'd hope we could manage that.

[rockymountaindem]

44. Israel has all those planes

because it is their stated policy to have four times as many planes as Syria, a country with which Israel is in a low-level war.

[JanusAscending]

97. You could kinda say the same thing about the USA,

and it's attack on Iraq and subsequent occupation, no??? I'm afraid the leaders are in "cahoots"???:think: Just change a few words around in your post, and you'll get my drift!!

[BlueCaliDem]

29. I've been silent about the Israel/Lebanon conflict , other than to make a

...comment just a few minutes ago about why my beloved Russ Feingold might not win the presidential primaries come 2007 based upon the hatred growing these days against the Jewish people.

However, I've been appalled at the bigotted anger towards the Jews. ALL Jews in general just because of neo-cons like Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol, and their ilk.

They conveniently forget prominent peaceful Jewish people like Steven Spielberg, Richard Dreyfus, Jerry Seinfeld, Larry Davids, Jason Alexander, and who can EVER forget, Barbara Streisand, just to name a FEW who absolutely, and publicly are against the Iraq war, and, I'm sure, just as appalled by Israel's excessive use of force against Lebanon to get at Hezbollah as every other sane human-being.

Lest we forget, Bush's man, John "the Walrus reich-winger" Bolton vetoed a UN resolution to request a cease-fire between Israel and Hezbollah so that diplomacy take a front-seat to this escalating violence sending Israel the message to keep attacking, and Israel has no other choice than to do so now.

It's this U.S. administration's failed ME foreign policy, and failure to intervene that's destroying Lebanon, and creating perpetual war in the ME for generations to come.

All Bush had to do was ask Israel and Hezbollah to cease fire and come to the table, and Israel (most certainly) and Hezbollah (perhaps) through pressure from the Lebanese government would've obliged, but Bush remained stone-cold silent with the ONLY response sent through Bolton when he vetoed any attempt by the UN for a cease fire.

That should say it all. Bush wants war with Iran, and he's going to let Israeli, Lebanese, and American blood flow, to get it.

Sy Hersch already warned us back in April of this year, and he got his info from both European as well as American intelligence.

To refresh our memory:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. I am not a student of middle eastern affairs

and I feel almost unworthy of even having an opinion. Watching the all-to-familiar death and destruction of Lebanon puts a knot in my gut and an enormous sense of uselessness and frustration. I have no idea what the solution might be. How these people can hate one another so long and so avidly is beyond my understanding. And it seems neverending. If Israel pulls back, Hezbollah will just regroup. But frankly, I think even if Israel flattened Lebanon, it wouldn't solve the problem.


I applaud your post. I've experienced hatred towards Jews and it is like a grass fire on the prairie. Once it starts, it seems it can't be put out. I don't understand that kind of hate. I just don't understand it.

[Just Me]

35. I understand. You must also understand minor errors in communication,...

,...driven by passion and pain.

I believe you have that capacity.

As you stated, you object to the "collective punishment" being waged, not by Jews but rather by a government.

Let's try to separate the disgust aimed at individuals rather than wrap ourselves into a propaganda campaign that intentionally mixes and twists such expressions.

Please. Please.

[Spazito]

36. Well said! n/t

[misanthrope]

37. I don't either and...

...there's enough of it oozing from all sides in the Middle East that the people there are drowning in it. I find the entire situation revolting. Looking at the photos of little Israeli girls signing bombs intended for Lebanon reminds me of the perversions in Northern Ireland.

Nothing will ever improve there as long as people instill that kind of hatred into children.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cooley Hurd]

42. I posted a link to the USS Liberty survivors website yesterday...

...and was labeled a neo-Nazi. NOWHERE on their website is there a TRACE of antisemitism. Nada. Zilch.

I'm sick of this shit. Hezbollah sucks, but so does the present Israeli government for indiscriminately bombing Lebanese citizens into the dust.

I thought the TO/Leopold wars were DU's darkest hour (with the 2004 primary a close second), but this latest SHIT tops it all.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. Good post

I have found that I have learned a lot about the conflict by reading, responding, and even starting threads. I wish to thank all those who took the time to step aside from rhetoric to answer questions and bring up points for everyone to consider (such as the fact that water may be a factor in what is going on).

[Arkham House]

59. Cali--more than anyone at DU the past couple of weeks--

--I think you've managed to maintain your poise, your balance, and your sanity...you've certainly helped *me* maintain all three of these increasingly-precarious commodities. This post is just dead on, and many thanks for it...

[cali]

98. and thank you

for your exceedingly kind words.

[AlwaysQuestion]

63. Free speech?

At the outset I don't believe there is a bigoted bone in my body. If as a child I had any bigotry in me, none existed after my parents took me to see "The Jackie Robinson Story." (Yeah, if any of you saw that movie when it first came out, you, like me, are getting on in years.) I remember crying throughout the movie and whenever I thought of what I had seen in the weeks following, I cried some more. Then some years later, I read the Scotsboro Boys Story (pulled it from my dad's library). Well, I didn't really read it all. I couldn't. It was just too horrible. I could not comprehend such cruelty. It was beyond what I could ever have imagined--which is why I have for years been adamantly opposed to how we treat prisoners--but that's another debate for another time. In any event, it didn't take much for me to transfer what I had learned about bigotry towards Black people to other disenfranchised groups.

However, I would so much like to get a discussion going about the right to free speech which I'm sure each of us believes in passionately. But do we? Perhaps I'm missing something--and it wouldn't be the first time--but isn't free speech the freedom to say anything? (except when it could cause bodily harm; e.g., in a theatre one cries "fire, fire" when there is none--could well bring on some serious mayhem).

It doesn't matter what forum one joins and participates in, I find freedom of speech sharply hindered in all of them. The conservative forums disallow leftist remarks and those posting them are told in no uncertain terms to take a hike. And of course we do the same here. I don't believe you can ban a bigoted remark with much effectiveness. However abhorrent such remarks are, forbidding them is not the answer.

As at most sites, the moderator, having been alerted to some nasty, inappropriate remark has the remark and its maker's name deleted. Why? I could look at bigoted statements all day and none would change my way of thinking--not necessarily on immoral grounds but rather on rational, logical, factual,and humanitarian grounds. I think we're being ineffective when we simply ban those who disagree with us on any topic. What I'm finding in forums generally is that for the most part, we're talking to the already converted (the left to the left; the right to the right, etc., etc.).

Because as progressives we know the folly and the hurt that bigoted remarks bring, we think we're doing a service by cleansing our ranks of bigots and bigoted remarks. I don't think so. I think we miss a wonderful opportunity to educate bigots. Mind you, I can't even begin to fathom or understand bigotry. It is all so senseless. Still, I believe that it's important to point out why we think remarks are bigotted and then move on. We don't have to get into an argument; in fact, I think quite the opposite. One and perhaps only one progressive should take it on to point out to the person making the offending remark why we believe he/she is beyond the pale. And at that point if the offending party continues to rile the troops, we ignore them, totally and completely. We refuse to engage in debate. We simply make our point and move on. Besides, it is impossible to debate a bigot because by definition these types eschew rationality, facts, or any sense of humanity.

I think when we ban people, we're losing sight of our belief in the right to free speech. I think we fall into a trap when we decide to shut down, ban, purge those beliefs which we find abhorrent. Censoring is bad no matter how well intentioned the censoring is. At least, that's how I view it.

[cali]

65. I thank you for your extremely thoughtful

and surprisingly (to me) effective argument. It was excellent. There are arguments to be made on both sides here. You did a great job presenting yours. Food for thought.

[Redstone]

74. Bigots can't be "educated." And allowing bigoted comments would be

an open invitation to trolls.

And the mods have enough work as it is.

I know you mean well, but allowing that crap would lead to anarchy.

And I'd probably leave DU if it were allowed.

Redstone

[AlwaysQuestion]

82. How would anarchy ensue?

Why do you feel that letting someone voice their opinion however twisted would turn this forum into anarchy. As I said in my initial post, I could be missing something. The only way I can presently see that it would turn to utter mayhem is if we engaged in debate with the offending party. As I said, one of us can just point out the error of the poster's way and then we as a group ignore his or her post from that point on. And if they come back again on a different topic manifesting bigotry on another front, we give him a single response and move on yet again. The bigot wins when we lend credence to his or her wretched, warped thinking when we ban them (as in mea culpa, we don't know how to deal with you, so we'll shut you up) or launch into some kind of debate with the culprit.

You see, I think so long as we increase our bent for shutting people down unless they are "with us," freedom of speech ceases to have much if any meaning. I think it would take much self discipline to systematically deal with them consistently with the purpose in mind that yes he or she is free to voice their views but we as progressives lend credence to none of their tripe.

And special thanks to Cali for showing such class. She neither conceded her own position nor put mine down. That's integral to good negotiating. Yes, I think we can all pick up a few pointers on how to get along and perhaps come to some mutual understanding. Too bad so many of our leaders are such hacks.

[Redstone]

84. Because, as I said, it would be a troll magnet. There are LOTS of

assholes out there who would like nothing better (and who have nothing better to do) than to come in here and start arguments by posting ethnic slurs.

The mods have enough to do already.

Redstone

[AlwaysQuestion]

85. Redstone, I disagree

The only way arguments can ensue is if you engage with the so-called trolls. I feel anger towards anyone who shows bigotry but as I said cutting off their right to express their idiocy falls short of the goal. Bring all the idiocy out; at least you can guage its prevelence, where it's coming from and work on some solutions to combat it. Else, as I said we just talk to one another and bicker over small differences. But I daresay we don't make much headway.

In any event, I won't belabour the point; you obviously disagree.

[Redstone]

91. OK. We'll find something else to be on the same side about. That's how

it tends to work around here.

Redstone

[Taxloss]

66. Recommended.

Excellent post. The best I've read in this whole sorry saga.

[JanusAscending]

100. Kudo's to Cali on this most excellant post,

and not taking anything away from her ( him?) may I now direct all of your attention to the newest post by H20 man, also on the Greatest Page. He takes it to the next level. If any haven't read it, I would highly recommend doing so.:hi:

[lonestarnot]

68. You are right bigotry sucks ass!

[cali]

78. LOL, one of my favorite comments on this thread:

Just as I was composing it, I wished I could just say bigotry sucks, and not have to explain anything.

[lonestarnot]

79. Isn't it a shame we just can't all get along without ever thinking

thoughts of bigotry, jealousy and hatred.

[Behind the Aegis]

72. KUDOS TO CALI!

:)

[Hekate]

73. KnR for an outstanding post.

My late father used to say of such thoughtless comments: "Open mouth, disengage brain."

I'm grateful to have missed most of what you've been tackling head-on, and grateful you've been courageous enough to tackle this ugliness head-on.

We are supposed to be better than this.

Hekate

[Lerkfish]

76. thanks for the good post.

[jonnyblitz]

80. I am seriously flabbergasted at the few people here who had a

problem with this thread. Just because people can be fast and loose with the anti-semitism slur doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. If you can't see the blatant examples in Cali's OP then I don't know what else to say. apparently you are fine with the slurs. pathetic. and if you think I am some pro-zionist PNACer or whatever then you are TRULY smoking crack! All I can say is I have an idea what you are and I don't know why you are posting on this board claiming you are concerned with humanity if you don't think calling somebody a "jew boy" or 'jews caused 9-11" is a fucking IGNORANT thing.

[cali]

83. jonny, you posted this to my OP

somehow I think that was in error.

[jonnyblitz]

94. I was directing it to whomever disagreed with you.

even though I posted to the OP. i figured people would understand it wasn't directed at you. :hi:

[barb162]

86. "...something by David Duke on, say, affirmative action"

laugh and a half. No, two laughs!

Bwahahahahahaha

[Raksha]

89. When I first read your post earlier I had to take it on faith

that there had been this kind of ugly stuff on DU. Personally, I had not seen any of it although there's been plenty of criticism of Israel. But a few minutes ago I saw a post on another thread that seemingly accused the Jews of ancient AND modern character flaws that prevented them from getting along with their neighbors. I have to call that anti-Semitism, something I NEVER expected to see on DU.

[jonnyblitz]

95. it pops up here and there, trust me. people just tend to

be skeptical because the slur is slung around so much.

[Chi-Town Exile]

90. Kudos to you, again, Cali

Thank you so much for your eloquent post and restoring my faith in DU once again.

:yourock:

[Bluerthanblue]

92. I agree with you Cali- I too hate bigotry, and

callous disregard for life-

The statements you cite are inappropriate- and offensive.
There have been many on the opposite side as well-

None of them serve any positive purpose.

And I too share the wish that the bombing and invasion of Lebanon would stop-
That ALL bombing would stop- and that we would work with everything we have at out disposal to refrain from resorting to killing, war and violence, as a means of 'settling' anything.

Thank you for your thoughtful post-

May we all know peace-
blu

[struggle4progress]

96. Thank you!

[JI7]

99. i agree

it's a shame, i think these assholes need to be banned. i think these people ARE anti semetic, Anti JEwish , whateve ryou want to call it. but they certainly are bigots spewing this shit it out.

i can understand more why those who are Jewish would see certain things as anti semetic when they have to put up with this shit . and on a LIBERAL WEBSITE .

[still_one]

101. what do you think hezballoh is?

Do you know what they advocate? Not just the destruction of Israel, but the killing of all Jews

calling those who practice bigotry slime is NOT bigotry

[cali]

103. I don't see that

it serves any purpose to label people broadly- even members of H'zbollah. H'zbollah certainly isn't a group I have any use for, but labels such as slime, evil, and even terrorist, don't really do much to help us understand the dynamics of what's happening in Lebanon or why people support H'zbollah. I would far rather have seen negotiations than war.

[Lerkfish]

107. thinking of a group as less than human makes it more comfortable

to disable your conscience when you kill them. That is why bigotry is dangerous, because it helps to evaporate the normal reticence we have to obliterating large groups of people.

[Meshuga]

109. Another excellent post by you, Cali

I could not do a better job. You are again showing you can put yourself in someone else's shoes and be an example to us all!

Posts containing bigotry are unacceptable, period! Whether they are anti-arab or antisemitic or anti any group of people.

Posts with harsh criticism of Israel's conduct and her methods are not antisemitic. But BS propaganda quoted from right-wing or far-left websites that only add fuel to the fire (a fire that does not need to get any bigger) and that are designed to create myths and paranoia with generalizations about Israel, Jews, and even Zionism are stupid and unacceptable. That is the garbage that creates discomfort among pro-Israel Jews here in DU.

The discomfort is not from the criticism that Israel deserves (look at the obvious: we see aggression, destruction, innocent civilians being killed...) but from the unquestioned belief by some here in the conspiracy theories and from the language echoed around DU that you eloquently provided to us as examples in your OP.