A squadron of F-4 Phantoms can kill 100,000 people in one sortie.

[Swede]

One F-4 can carry 18,000 lbs of ordance. The IDF has dozens of them,not to mention the new F-15 and F-16s,and there is no opposition.

[Redstone]

1. A hundred thousand? Not without nukes.

Redstone

[yurbud]

4. easily. See the firebombing of Dresden. New munitions are more potent

and accurate. If the goal is to kill 100k, it can be done easily without nukes. We just don't like to count that high when our friends are doing it.

[achtung_circus]

35. Firebombing of Dresden?

Is that the source of the 100,000 figure you're postulating.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=74046&highlight=dresden+casualties

Serious estimates and evidence of a much lower death toll for the Dresden air raid have been around for a long time. They just don't sell books, magazines or newspapers as well as gross exaggerations do!

As early as 1945 Max Seydewitz, the then Mayor of Dresden, in his Zerstörung and Wiederaufbau von Dresden (East Berlin, 1945) had proclaimed the document - known as TB 47 - putting the final death toll at over 200,000 as a clumsy forgery, and quoted the head gardener of the Heidefriedhof (apparently the largest cemetery in the area) as estimating 28,746 casualties had been buried there, including those incinerated in the Altmarkt - which even with adjusting for burials elsewhere and undiscovered victims was a far cry from the 120,000 to 250,000 (occasionally even 500,000) bruited about by Goebbels' propagandists, and later by the likes of David Irving and sensationalist articles in newspapers and magazines.

In 1953, Georg Feydt estimated the dead at 39,773 in his Ziviler Luftschutz, cited in Götz Bergander, Dresden in Luftkreig (Cologne 1977, 2d ed. 1985) at 253.

In 1965 Walter Weidauer, the then mayor of Dresden, in his Inferno Dresden: über Lügen und Legenden um die Aktion Donnerschlag (East Berlin, 1965, 2d ed. 1966) at 120, wrote that the individual cards in the death register, which was still extant in Dresden City Hall , showed the highest card number was 31,102 and that this corresponded with the numbers in the street books, which tabulated the streets and houses where dead were found.

In 1975 Götz Bergander published a copy of a situation report by the Berlin Chief of Police stating that the Befehshaber der Ordnungspolizei Dresden had reported 22,096 dead recovered as of March 31, 1945. And in 1977, Bergander discovered a copy of the original TB 47, which showed an actual death figure of 20,204 and an expected total of 25,000 - a copy relied upon by David Irving had been forged by simply adding zeros to the actual numbers. See Bergander, op cit supra at 261.

In 1993 new material was discovered in the Stadarchiv Dresden, Marschall und Bestattigungsamt, Nachtrag 1 and 5, listing in detail the bodies buried in the various Dresden cemeteries, which totalled 21,271. Friedrich Reichert, "Verbrannt bis zur Unkentlichkeit", in Dresden City Museum (ed.) Verbrannt bis zur Unkenntlickkeit: Die Zerstörung Dresdens 1945 (Altenburg, 1994) at 58. Reichert added some less than 2,000 bodies which had subsequently been discovered in the ruins since 1945, and rounded up to an estimate of 25,000 as the maximun fatal casualties from the raid. Ibid.

The above is compiled from Richard J Evans, Lying About Hitler: History, Holocaust and the David Irving Trial (Basic Books 2001) Chapter 5, at 149-85, and from Fredrick Taylor, Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945 (Harper Collins 2004) Appendix B, "Counting the Dead" at 443-8.

[Swede]

6. They did it in Tokyo without nukes.

Say 30 F-4s loaded with HE and incenderies on an modern city. Knock out the civil defense,hell on earth.

[yurbud]

18. How many people COULD have been killed on 911 if planes hit a bit lower?

It's not even the size of the bomb, but where you put it, and if the goal is depopulation or terrorizing the population with mass casualties it can be done.

[Swede]

24. I think the trick is to start a firestorm.

Dresden and Tokyo were turned to ash without nukes. And WE fuckin' did it.

[TomInTib]

33. You left out the City of Angels (Panama)

at least 110,000 incinerated.

[achtung_circus]

36. Depends on the city.

Tokyo and other Japanese cities burned so violently because most housing was constructed of wood and paper. Lebanese buildings, stone and concrete, burn rather less well.

The Cedars of Lebanon are long gone.

[Kenergy]

7. Deleted for ponderance n/t

[Swede]

11. I said a squadron.

Each carries 18,000 lbs of bombs. That's 9 kilotons. Hiroshima bomb was what 20 kilotons?

[caraher]

21. Check your math, please

18,000 lb = 9 tons, not 9 ktons!

[Swede]

23. Oops.

I stand corrected.

[Rex]

2. There is opposition, Hezbollah doesn't have tanks, planes, ships

what they do have is people willing to blow themselves up for a 'cause'. One person with a nuke strapped to his ass can kill 100,000 people too.

Murder is murder, IMO.

[originalpckelly]

26. Of course the nation that would give a Hezbollah member the nuke...

would be immediately annihilated the second their identity became known. The US has 2,000 nuclear weapons. Israel is supposed to have about 200. You do the math.

These nations aren't going to give a suicide bomber a nuke or even the material to make a dirty bomb. The people at the top of Iran deal with the atheists in North Korea; if they were so religious that would be a complete affront. They only get nukes as bargaining chips, but the nukes are only effective as chips if we let them be effective. Fear is the motivator. Unfortunately even people on our side of the isle, such as yourself are willing to be pawns of Iran.

[iconoclastic cat]

3. Uh, can you cite your source, please?

I'm a bit skeptical.

[Swede]

Which part?

The F-4 can carry more than the famous B-17 of WW11. Israel has dozens of them.

[iconoclastic cat]

12. All of it. For instance, can the F-4 really pack that much munitions?

[Swede]

16. This googled source says 16,000 lbs.

I was sure it was 18,000.

http://www.highironillustrations.com/aviation_specification/spec_f4.html

[bemildred]

5. You need to bunch the people together to do that. nt

[The Magistrate]

15. Seriously, Sir: The Target Would Have To Co-operate Strenuously

It would take days to organize....

[bemildred]

22. But actually, you could better that number by a good bit, I would wager.

Not that I see the point of it.

[The Magistrate]

29. With The Necessary Co-operation On The Receiving End, Sir

It could indeed be achieved....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

[wakeme2008]

8. And just think what would happen to Israel if Saudi sent their Air Force

for a bombing run....

[yurbud]

9. I think Israel has electronics edge against Saudi and they won't attack

until they have their revolution.

[wakeme2008]

14. Israel's eye are other places today

and F-16 are FAST...

[AGiordino]

10. You can sure make a helluva a mess with fuel-air explosives

and cover a lot of territory with resultant destructive pressure waves.
At least those things that didn't burn up in the initial blast.
So yeah, a densely populated area, a fuel-air munition, the resultant
damage is going to be severe and costly in terms of infrastructure and
human life.

[Redstone]

17. FAMs would't work well in a city, I think. Because of the buildings.

I could be wrong.

They work like hell in the open, though.

Redstone

[The Magistrate]

13. Not A Chance, Sir

Not even in an arms salesman's wildest spiels....

You are talking about a total of one hundred forty four tons of ordnance, which is equivalent to the weight carried by three dozen World War Two era bombers. The raids that killed scores of thousands in that war involved hundreds, sometimes thousands of bomber sorties. When the object is mass killing in an urban area, as your hypothesis would suggest, since the number you mention could be found nowhere else, modern improvements in aim do not increase lethality at all over mere random scattering.

[Swede]

20. 18,000 lbs of HE per ship,say 30 Phantoms

30 F-16s and F-15s flying cover. Take out the radar,the firefighting,civil command....

[The Magistrate]

31. That Is Not the Weight Of Explosive, Sir

Even in aerial bombs, that do not need to withstand the stress of being hurled up a gun barrel, the weight of the container strong enough to hold the weight of contents and be handled safely is considerable. You specified a squadron, which is, if recollection serves, eighteen aircraft, or at least it used to be. What you have suggested, Sir, simply is beyond the capability of the equipment in the parameters you specified. The fact is that on statistical average, in bombing urban areas, one ton of bombs dropped produces three to five deaths: it is as reduceable en masse to simple arithmetic as the insurance business.

[Swede]

32. Let's not argue how many angels can dwell on the head of a pin.

F-4s can carry 8 or 9 tons of ordnance,more that the B-17s of WWII,with modern lasers etc 30 or 40 of them can start a fire that no one can put out. Have the f-16s and f-15s ready to blast any firefighting,there is no way to stop it.

[Rex]

19. Here we go.

http://www.theaircraftgallery.com/planes/f-4/index.php

SPECIFICATIONS

Dimensions:

Wingspan: 11.77 meters - 38 feet, 7.5 inches
Length: 19.20 meters - 63 feet
Height 5.02 meters - 16 feet, 5.5 inches
Max weight: 28,030 kilograms - 61,795 pounds
Power Plant:

Two 79.62 kN (17,900 lb st) General Electric J79-GE-17A turbojets
Armament:

One 20mm M61A1 Vulcan six-barrel cannon with 640 rounds; up to 7,257 kilograms (16,000 pounds) of ordinance can include: nuclear weapons, ASMs, AAMs, free-fall or guided bombs, cluster bombs and ECM pods, carried on nine external hardpoints.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[Rex]

27. Murder

If that ain't murder then what is?

[yurbud]

28. when you do that to someone with blonde hair who is christian or jewish

[Rex]

30. I'm sure Nancy Grace would agree with you.

Can't treat swarthy people like humans, then we would need a political paradigm shift.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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