being the victim of atrocities is no justification

[KG]

for commiting them in return.

nope.

[DanCa]

1. Can I go around smacking the rethugs who want to keep me crippled

because scr research is against their religious belief's? Come on just let me give them one smack from my baseball bat. That'd be really sweet.

[NMMNG]

22. The Bible does say "An eye for an eye"....

;-)

[DanCa]

23. Cool.

Wanna join me. We can play the fundie version of whackamole.

[NMMNG]

24. Ok

Let me get my slaying stake out.




;-)

[Fredda Weinberg]

2. Walk a mile in my father's shoes ...

He survived Hitler's labor camps, losing his entire family to the gas chambers. He joined the Russians as they advanced toward Germany and, working as a translator for their military intelligence, sent innnocent people to certain death. He told us these stories to make a point: anyone can be driven to vengeance.

You're not qualified to judge him - or anyone else from your comfortable position.

[uppityperson]

3. Understandable, but still not justified.

There is a difference between these 2 words, and this is how I see it.

[tocqueville]

6. it still doesn't justify them

committing atrocities takes you down to the level of your persecutors. Maybe even lower, since you understand the scope of what you are doing.

FYI my father was arrested by the Gestapo for smuggling Jews to Spain. He was bribed out or I wouldn't be here. My brother lost his best buddy in Algeria and was himself crippled by disease contracted in service. There is more, but I skip it.

And I bet that your father doesn't want to gather all Lebanese and put them in a gas chamber.

[Bluerthanblue]

7. He told you his story

because he needed to tell it, and he needed you to hear him-
Unless your father felt proud, justified and 'righteous' about his actions, and unless he went around violently attacking people he feared, with the justification of his horrible experiences at the hands of the Nazi's- he wasn't 'avenging' violence as I read the OP to be stating-

You are not qualified to 'judge' anyones perspective as comfortable or not comfortable. What your father and his loved ones lived through, and died in- was hideous- absolutely despicable- but it is not the only suffering, victimization, and oppressive hate that has ever occurred in this world-

All of us will know sorrow- and suffering, some will become more intimate with it than others- but no ones suffering is ever 'easy, or comfortable' And I would hope that your father would also have made that point to you as well.

He did what he did, because he saw no other options- I cannot fault him at ALL for that- but as for justifying killing other people, premeditatedly, and without conscience- and claiming that 'my suffering'- is reason enough- then "I" have become the monster that sought to consume me-

I wish you and your father peace and healing-

I desire to see this world free of excusing hatred and murder for any reason- That is the only hope we have of actually living in a world, where indeed "NEVER AGAIN" is a reality, rather than a hope.

blu

[Fredda Weinberg]

12. My father has found peace

I won't hear him screaming in the night any more.

He told us why he related his experiences - and if you don't believe that you can be driven to take revenge, I'm afraid you may be fooling yourself, but that's human nature.

[Bluerthanblue]

16. I'm glad that he is

at peace- and I'm glad you had the opportunity to know him, and learn from him. Your father and his experiences are valid and true- for you, and your family.

I do believe people can be seduced by the notion that 'revenge' will make anything 'less awful'- but no one is 'driven to it'- We all are responsible for our actions.

I'm not fooling myself, and I do understand the ....'pull' that revenge puts on us all. It is 'instinctual' to want to 'give back as good as you got, and then some'- But doing that only keeps the cycle of atrocities/vengence/atrocities/vengence going.

I don't pretend to be at peace with the past- or with life- I wake up screaming, and often don't sleep because 'dreams' are frequently not my friend- but I have promised myself, that I will self destruct before I will allow myself to become an instrument of suffering against other human beings-

And if I do nothing else for 'me' in this world, it will be to honor that promise-


Your father will never have to fear again- or know the rage that comes with fear. He is free at last.
And from what you have shared, he didn't seek out revenge- he made the best of an impossible situation- and HE needed to understand that- He didn't need to justify the fact that he survived. He was not a 'bad person' for living through hell. - And it is sad that so many people have been made to feel that way-

I wish you peace and comfort-
sincerly,
blu

[cali]

18. Unfortunately- and I think this was Frieda's point-

you can't know that. That is the point. None of us can. We all have a dark part. Who knows what will make it stir. But that's not really the point. Institutions and governments aren't individuals. Democratic governments should have checks and balance that filter out actions through our baser emotions.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. believe me Cali,

I know my dark side- far too well, and I know what makes it stir-
And I know the only thing to make it stop- eternally.

I agree, governments should have checks and balances to keep human'kind' from acting on our baser emotions.

But when it comes right down to it, governments fall, and we are left with ourselves- We come into this world alone, and we will exit it alone- what we do, as individuals in between is up to us- no one can 'make us do' anything- If we 're- act' to what we are living in- we are still choosing to 'act'-

I do understand the evil that lurks within humanity- the potential to do good or bad, that lives within each and every one of us. Better than I ever wished to know-

peace to us all,
blu

[jonnyblitz]

21. i agree with your agreement on Fredda's point but

I am not sure what this has to do with the Lebanese or the Palistinians. :shrug:

[xultar]

4. If that were the case...Africans would rule the world. Notice how we got

curbed.

[DanCa]

5. Hi Xultar

How are you tonight? :hug: :hi:

[xultar]

10. Hey! Watching the history channel thing on the Anti christ & gettin

depressed.

I now believe based on this show Bush is the anti christ.


Enough depression../

How are you???
Thanks for the shout out. Reminds me I still have friends @ DU!

[DanCa]

11. I am just chillin out to Bo Diddley

My brother got me the chess box for my birthday. Also I've been fooling around with my harp alittle bit. But I am good. Thanks for asking. :hug:

[WHAT]

8. so, in a world where justice can't be realized...

then what?

[KG]

9. is commiting atrocities in retaliation for atrocities really justice?

[kineneb]

15. quotes

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
-Mahatma Gandhi, (attributed)
Indian ascetic & nationalist leader (1869 - 1948)

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth': But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn unto him the other also.
-Matthew 5:38-39

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ...
1.harming living beings.
-Precepts of Buddhism

...any comments I could add would be superfluous...

[AusGail]

13. Nelson Mandella had atrocities committed against him and his people

He is a man of peace and if he wasn't so old, he would be an ideal Secretary General of the UN. Just as a postcript- Bush was against his being released from jail.

[cali]

19. Yes, and Mandela

is a rarity. Most of us don't come through the refiner's fire so whole.

[madeline_con]

14. A reasonable person would think that former victims of atrocities

would not wish to visit them upon others who were not their oppresssors.

[Jara sang]

17. 'Pedagogy of the Oppressed' by Paolo Friere

The oppressed become the oppressors.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826412769/sr=1-1/qid=1153626160/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-6202557-2114231?ie=UTF8&s=books