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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:17 PM
Original message
War Sucks And All, But
I think it's a human hard drive thing; fixed deep in our lizard brain, and with some interconnectedness. It's tribal, and it's a part of us. Now, I'm not talking about every human, just a majority of us. In some, that war part has atrophied, or a certain awareness overrides it.

Wars erupt and they rage through our psyches.

If only it was as easy as saying "war sucks".


* I am in now way discounting that there are people who profit, in one way or another, from war who have a strong motivation to see it occur, just noting that it's an atavistic trait.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why do we refuse to evolve past war?
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Only if we can evolve past fear
anger, hate.. and greed


then we evolve
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. fear anger hate and greed... all emotions I don't get.. well hate I get.
I hate those who choose to perpetuate fear and anger and greed, and hate toward those who are different from them. Makes me :puke:
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misternormal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
38. I don't "hate" anything...
... Hate is akin to love, in that to do either takes a lot of time and energy. I dislike many things, and therefore think rarely of them. I refuse to expend the energy it takes, nor the time it takes to hate.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Because...
we haven't evolved past being group-oriented social animals with a hierarchical social structure. Most species of social animals with such group organisation make war against one another in some form, whether packs of dogs or bands of chimpanzees. Our mistake is in assuming that we're somehow any different.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Thank you.
You put it much better than I did. I can't get over how many people on this thread don't want to deal with such a basic reality.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. We don't get it because Anger is a choice
Hate is a choice

Greed is a choice


what is that old saying? Life is 10% of what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it.

If as human beings we made better choices about how we react to things I believe War would be one of those extinct behaviors sort of like stoning people to death.

"Tolerance is a discipline. It implies a willingness to turn away from all the many possible acts of revenge, harm, and violence." -Dali Lama


If we adopted the same attitude toward all human being our responsibility to a beggar would be the same as our most admired person. That is to say we should always see one another as human beings first, adopt a global perspective of one another. Maybe that is the first step?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. I believe it is because
we are afraid to let go of the hate- and really feel the pain.... so much better said here:

"One of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they seem to sense, once hate is gone, that they will be forced to deal with pain."
- James Baldwin 'Notes of a Native Son' 1955

We humans will do almost anything to avoid FEELING the pain- drugs, drinking, denial, destruction, addictions of all kinds- dis-associating. Distracting ourselves with anything or everything because the suffering scares and exposes our vunerability...... To feel the pain, to face the terror, history, monsters.... means accepting that we were, and are "not invincible"- Not in "control"- and that in itself is terrifying.

We choose war, because war is easy- it gives us a sense of 'group action'- an illusion of power and control- but not forever- and not for the better.

I have to believe that humanity can and WILL learn to live without war- without group violence as a means of control- free of intimidation and coercion. Together in relative peace- If this dream or hope didn't live within us, what would make facing one more day worth it???

If we knew with a certainty that our children would grow to fight and die, and their children and their children without end- what would be the point??? If we cannot 'evolve' beyond our base violent instinct- we aren't evidence of intelligent life- but of rats on a treadmill-

We have to have the courage to live fully- pain, suffering, weakness and all- so that we can be completely alive to the wonder, joy, and beauty that is also a part of life on earth.

peace,
blue
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Wow! Not to be a cliche, but that is heavy stuff and we are truly one
messed up species.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. forgive my
blunt negativity- but for all the 'improvements' we have come up with- for all the inventions, medicines, work and time savers- Do you believe humanity is 'more content' or that life is any more 'satisfying' for the majority of human beings alive today versus 200 yrs ago? or 2000yrs ago???--
We seem to be searching for somthing that lies just beyond our reach- and all the money, things, experiences, and what nots that fill our lives, don't seem to fill that basic need-
The need to feel safe, to feel connected, accepted, loved, that we have purpose, and value. That our lives are not simply endless days of ritual motions..... The joy of sharing in the lives of others, and watching children grow and mature. The satisfaction of resting after a hard day of physical labor- a full pantry, a solid roof over our heads, the challenge of meeting our basic needs one that is within our ability to achieve- even if it means stretching our limits-

Looking at this world, it seems the most contented people are those who live the simplest lives- to whom living through the day is a bigger challenge than for most 'industrialized citizens'- And they are often the most respectful of this planet, and all life that lives here with them.

sorry, i'm rambling.....

we are in deep sneakers, .... but we do have hope-

peace,
blu
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. We can't CHOOSE to evolve at all
Some traits will survive in a few hundred thousand years, and others won't. History shows us that aggression does quite well, and everything else takes a second class seat on the evolutionary train. Like you, though, I still hope; I just remain cynical.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Hmm I don't get it.
So evolution doesn't involve brain function? Violence is ingrained and we can't break free of it? Why can we evolve physically, yet still remain a violent species? Wouldn't our intelligence allow us to evolve past violence at some point?
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. You said it yourself: "Why can we evolve physically..."
Because "brain functions" and "intelligence" are just a fact of physical biology, which is a result of evolution, which is a result of aggression. Not violence, but aggression.

We don't evolve to be either more aggressive or more intelligent. We evolve because the ones who weren't as intelligent or aggressive are dead. Intelligence, obviously, has played a major role in this, but it has taken a back seat to aggressiveness.

I think that eventually an aggressive drive to preserve and promote the species is inevitable, but it's a process that will take hundreds of thousands of years, at best. In the grand scheme of things, we just stopped clubbing each other over the head and painting on cave walls YESTERDAY.

It's also ethnocentric of us to sit around and communicate via broadband decrying the violence in the world. I, too, abhor it, am absolutely sickened by it, and wonder why people still feel it necessary to find reasons to kill each other. But when they ran out of bullets in Rwanda, they used machetes. And the Germans and so many others decided to blame Jews for their problems. And it once seemed like a good idea to Cambodians that they kill everyone who knew how to read. And people right here next door to you feel it's a fun day out to rape and kill prepubescent girls.

I suspect that I am every bit as idealistic as you, but far more realistic/cynical. We can wish for things to better all we want...
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is enough to declare that war is unproductive, counterproductive
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 11:35 PM by bigtree
War may be a part of us but, so is love,
War happens, but, so does love,
It is in our nature to love,
It is a destination, an end, in and of itself.

War is an expression,
But it is primarily a means to an end.
Love pervades, war disrupts.
Love grows and creates, war grows and destroys.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. i'm sorry. I see those words
as platitudes. They sound lovely, but they don't meet the reality of the drive we have to war. And yes, of course, love is a part of us too, but as the exceedingly wise E.M. Forester said, we can only love people we know. He advocated tolerance, which he called the most underrated virtue.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. cali
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 11:53 PM by bigtree
to you they are platitudes, that's why you see them as such.

You recognized that these traits to violence are not bred in everyone. They need not be if we endeavor to shape our society to abhor war. There are societies that do not war with their neighbors. That should be evidence enough. I don't think war is some inevitable force of our nature. It has been bred in some of us; sometimes as a reflection of the struggle to survive, or the rudiments of the opportunistic habits of nations and peers.

It is a means to ends. There are other, less pernicous means. Folks choose these all of the time when offered. If war is imposed on us, and we assume a defensive, war-like response, that doesn't reflect anything more than the will to survive and prosper. The end we seek is love. Certainly most would choose to survive and prosper over warring. That's what makes the argument that we are all predisposed to war silly. We want to live, communicate, relate . . . all of these things we hold dearer than warring. War is not necessarily the means to those basic ends. We push off with war. We mostly want to relate with each other.

There again, that is bred in me. I suspect the desire to love over the desire/need to war is bred in most folks because most of us do not personally war with each other.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I appreciate your sincerity and
the sentiment behind it (or in front of it, or whatever), but I can't agree. No one really wants war, except for those who profit from it or with new toys to try out, but it can and does sweep us up in it. Look at Rwanda or Bosnia.
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freeplessinseattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. but we can hate those we don't know?
"love" is not a static term, perhaps "care about" would be more acceptable?
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. '...a force that gives us meaning..yadda yadda...
My lizard brain says it sucks. My lizard brain says people, plain old every day people like you and me who
do not hold the reins of power want peace and safety and happiness and laughing children.
If we accept the idea that it's part of our destiny I wager our survival will be no longer than the present century
we are living in.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yeah, maybe but look
around the world, "normal people" get caught up in war too. Think Rwanda.
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
40. We are all bottom line tribal I don't dispute that.
Cognitively we must understand and control ourselves. The instincts won't disappear soon but
our blind obedience to them must or bye bye.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sadly, it is part of life.
Everything exists in a balance. War will cease to exist when the last two humans cease to exist. Sad, but true.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. No, I'm not sure I believe that
I do believe in evolution, and somehow if we're to continue as a species, we'll have to evolve to where the old lizard brain can be overcome.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Then, you are more of an optimist than me.
I see the hate day to day. I see it here, I see it in the streets and I see it on the news...I don't ever see it ending. If the hate cannot end, then its by-products will also not end.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. I disagree. The public wasn' t clamoring for war
Edited on Sat Jul-22-06 11:39 PM by Eric J in MN
...in 2000.

If the Bush Administration had been on the ball regarding terrorism, then 9/11 would have been prevented, and we wouldn't have the Afghanistan War.

The Iraq War didn't occur because of a grassroots movement. It occurred becuase of misleadership at the top.



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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. agree all the way
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Are you agreeing with me or the original poster? NT
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 12:03 AM by Eric J in MN
NT
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Monkeyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. you sorry about that
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I'm not talking about this country
And I have a shitload of evidence: All of human history and pre-history, and in many ways it's the pre-history part that's so compelling. There's a lot written about human agression, and war is definitely the ultimate expression of such.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Racism has also been part of human history for a long time....
But there is less racism in 21st century America than in 20th century America, and less racism in 20th century America than in 19th century America.

We can move away from war, too. I'm not saying we will, just that we can.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. Agression is part of human nature, but war is such an unusual
expression of it.
Being exposed to life threatening conditions for weeks and months on end drives most people crazy.
In war people kill people towards whom they don't have personal animosity.

As evidenced by the fact that when the opportunity arrizes, enemies in war can become friends, if only temporarily:




Christmas Day, 1914

My dear sister Janet,

It is 2:00 in the morning and most of our men are asleep in their
dugouts -- yet I could not sleep myself before writing to you of the
wonderful events of Christmas Eve. In truth, what happened seems
almost like a fairy tale, and if I hadn't been through it myself, I
would scarce believe it. Just imagine: While you and the family sang
carols before the fire there in London, I did the same with enemy
soldiers here on the battlefields of France!

As I wrote before, there has been little serious fighting of late. The
first battles of the war left so many dead that both sides have held
back until replacements could come from home. So we have mostly stayed
in our trenches and waited.

But what a terrible waiting it has been! Knowing that any moment an
artillery shell might land and explode beside us in the trench,
killing or maiming several men. And in daylight not daring to lift our
heads above ground, for fear of a sniper's bullet.

And the rain -- it has fallen almost daily. Of course, it collects
right in our trenches, where we must bail it out with pots and pans.
And with the rain has come mud -- a good foot or more deep. It
splatters and cakes everything, and constantly sucks at our boots. One
new recruit got his feet stuck in it, and then his hands too when he
tried to get out -- just like in that American story of the tar baby!

Through all this, we couldn't help feeling curious about the German
soldiers across the way. After all, they faced the same dangers we
did, and slogged about in the same muck. What's more, their first
trench was only 50 yards from ours. Between us lay No Man's Land,
bordered on both sides by barbed wire -- yet they were close enough we
sometimes heard their voices.

Of course, we hated them when they killed our friends. But other
times, we joked about them and almost felt we had something in common.
And now it seems they felt the same.

Just yesterday morning -- Christmas Eve Day -- we had our first good
freeze. Cold as we were, we welcomed it, because at least the mud
froze solid. Everything was tinged white with frost, while a bright
sun shone over all. Perfect Christmas weather.

During the day, there was little shelling or rifle fire from either
side. And as darkness fell on our Christmas Eve, the shooting stopped
entirely. Our first complete silence in months! We hoped it might
promise a peaceful holiday, but we didn't count on it. We'd been told
the Germans might attack and try to catch us off guard.

I went to the dugout to rest, and lying on my cot, I must have drifted
asleep. All at once my friend John was shaking me awake, saying, "Come
and see! See what the Germans are doing!" I grabbed my rifle, stumbled
out into the trench, and stuck my head cautiously above the sandbags.

I never hope to see a stranger and more lovely sight. Clusters of tiny
lights were shining all along the German line, left and right as far
as the eye could see.

"What is it?" I asked in bewilderment, and John answered, "Christmas
trees!"

And so it was. The Germans had placed Christmas trees in front of
their trenches, lit by candle or lantern like beacons of good will.

And then we heard their voices raised in song.

"Stille nacht, heilige nacht...."

This carol may not yet be familiar to us in Britain, but John knew it
and translated: "Silent night, holy night." I've never heard one
lovelier -- or more meaningful, in that quiet, clear night, its dark
softened by a first-quarter moon.

When the song finished, the men in our trenches applauded. Yes,
British soldiers applauding Germans! Then one of our own men started
singing, and we all joined in.

"The first Nowell, the angel did say...."

In truth, we sounded not nearly as good as the Germans, with their
fine harmonies. But they responded with enthusiastic applause of their
own and then began another.

"O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum...."

Then we replied.

"O come all ye faithful...."

But this time they joined in, singing the same words in Latin.

"Adeste fideles...."

British and German harmonizing across No Man's Land! I would have
thought nothing could be more amazing -- but what came next was more
so.

"English, come over!" we heard one of them shout. "You no shoot, we no
shoot."

There in the trenches, we looked at each other in bewilderment. Then
one of us shouted jokingly, "You come over here."

To our astonishment, we saw two figures rise from the trench, climb
over their barbed wire, and advance unprotected across No Man's Land.
One of them called, "Send officer to talk."

I saw one of our men lift his rifle to the ready, and no doubt others
did the same -- but our captain called out, "Hold your fire." Then he
climbed out and went to meet the Germans halfway. We heard them
talking, and a few minutes later, the captain came back with a German
cigar in his mouth!

"We've agreed there will be no shooting before midnight tomorrow," he
announced. "But sentries are to remain on duty, and the rest of you,
stay alert."

Across the way, we could make out groups of two or three men starting
out of trenches and coming toward us. Then some of us were climbing
out too, and in minutes more, there we were in No Man's Land, over a
hundred soldiers and officers of each side, shaking hands with men
we'd been trying to kill just hours earlier!

Before long a bonfire was built, and around it we mingled -- British
khaki and German grey. I must say, the Germans were the better
dressed, with fresh uniforms for the holiday.

Only a couple of our men knew German, but more of the Germans knew
English. I asked one of them why that was.

"Because many have worked in England!" he said. "Before all this, I
was a waiter at the Hotel Cecil. Perhaps I waited on your table!"

"Perhaps you did!" I said, laughing.

He told me he had a girlfriend in London and that the war had
interrupted their plans for marriage. I told him, "Don't worry. We'll
have you beat by Easter, then you can come back and marry the girl."

He laughed at that. Then he asked if I'd send her a postcard he'd give
me later, and I promised I would.

Another German had been a porter at Victoria Station. He showed me a
picture of his family back in Munich. His eldest sister was so lovely,
I said I should like to meet her someday. He beamed and said he would
like that very much and gave me his family's address.

Even those who could not converse could still exchange gifts -- our
cigarettes for their cigars, our tea for their coffee, our corned beef
for their sausage. Badges and buttons from uniforms changed owners,
and one of our lads walked off with the infamous spiked helmet! I
myself traded a jackknife for a leather equipment belt -- a fine
souvenir to show when I get home.

Newspapers too changed hands, and the Germans howled with laughter at
ours. They assured us that France was finished and Russia nearly
beaten too. We told them that was nonsense, and one of them said,
"Well, you believe your newspapers and we'll believe ours."

Clearly they are lied to -- yet after meeting these men, I wonder how
truthful our own newspapers have been. These are not the "savage
barbarians" we've read so much about. They are men with homes and
families, hopes and fears, principles and, yes, love of country. In
other words, men like ourselves. Why are we led to believe otherwise?

As it grew late, a few more songs were traded around the fire, and
then all joined in for -- I am not lying to you -- "Auld Lang Syne."
Then we parted with promises to meet again tomorrow, and even some
talk of a football match.

I was just starting back to the trenches when an older German clutched
my arm. "My God," he said, "why cannot we have peace and all go home?"

I told him gently, "That you must ask your emperor."

He looked at me then, searchingly. "Perhaps, my friend. But also we
must ask our hearts."

And so, dear sister, tell me, has there ever been such a Christmas Eve
in all history? And what does it all mean, this impossible befriending
of enemies?

For the fighting here, of course, it means regrettably little. Decent
fellows those soldiers may be, but they follow orders and we do the
same. Besides, we are here to stop their army and send it home, and
never could we shirk that duty.

Still, one cannot help imagine what would happen if the spirit shown
here were caught by the nations of the world. Of course, disputes must
always arise. But what if our leaders were to offer well wishes in
place of warnings? Songs in place of slurs? Presents in place of
reprisals? Would not all war end at once?

All nations say they want peace. Yet on this Christmas morning, I
wonder if we want it quite enough.

Your loving brother,

Tom

--

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/
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Pierogi_Pincher Donating Member (323 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. Agreed.
Plus, in my heart of hearts, I have contemplated--would there even have been 11 September if we had *someone other than XXXX* as president?

In addition to tolerance as a virtue in short supply, I see the virtue of humility sorely missing. I believe excessive consumerism and materialism have contributed to what we experience today. It's difficult to discipline oneself to not get caught up in that trap. Those who live more simple lives seem to be more content.

P_P

:dem:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. Don't think so. War may rage in "lizard brains" but
they are precisely the people who belong in a psych ward diagnosed as sociopaths. :puke:

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-22-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Then I hope you have a continent or two to spare.
or call it temporary madness. Does Rwanda ring a bell?
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Bad Penny Donating Member (392 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
29. The bad side of nature holds the good side hostage
Like someone coming into your home and shooting your cat, raping your daughter and wife, stealing your fine china and burning you and your family alive in the house when he leaves.

Or like Dick Cheney ruthlessly destroying your life if you conflict in any way with his goals

War is not a natural state. People weren't born to perish in war, and young men were never born to fight wars. They have to be brainwashed by ungodly bullies and whipped into a killing frenzy based on propaganda and lies. If we were meant to fight wars nature would have provided an easier way of dealing with Post traumatic stress and flashbacks, and guilt, and the true physchological despair one feels when he looks at people splattered all over a street corner. The Cheney side of human nature bullies the world, starts the wars and maintains the chaos. They do it because they have no moral instincts. They're not human. They're animals. War will be a thing of the past when bullies, criminals and those who use violence and dishonesty to gain what they want are a thing of the past. It's their world , the rest of us just try to live here


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. War is absolutely
a natural state- it's an expression of agression. War will not be a thing of the past until evolution overcomes aggression. And saying that some humans aren't humans is absurd. We are all humans- even Dick Cheney.
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hopeisaplace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
31. If people can be lead to believe "War" is a solution,
Edited on Sun Jul-23-06 01:31 AM by hopeisaplace
they can be lead to believe that "Peace" is a solution.

Imo, War is a choice. Those who are in positions to influence
groups of people, are the painters of war,ie: Leaders make choices...
corruption...biased media reporting stirring the witches brew of war, are just a few.
There must be some who truly believe it can solve "their" problem(s),
but, imo, that's not the reality of war. War hardens positions. War can kill
the greatest love a person has ever known...a family member, a friend. That empty,
lost, sick feeling left behind from a loss that can't be compared to
anything else on this planet, will either fester into hate or inspire positive action.
In the Middle East, where wars have almost been never ending, I'm inclined to believe
that hate continues to win the day, and steal the tomorrows.



edit: typo
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. Agriculture
Without it, no war. Why? You need a state to conduct war. If we don't have time, as a result of our specialized labor force, to create a top-down society where people thousands of miles away from you can send young people to die for national interests, there would be no war. When I say war, I mean large scale, organized force.

You wouldn't have a lot of thing without agriculture though, both good and bad.

http://www.sacredlands.org/jared_diamond_01.htm

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/War_Peace/War_Gives_Meaning.html

http://antiwar.com/bourne.php

Now, I'm well aware that agriculture, the state, and war aren't going anywhere. Agriculture will grow more food, the state will increase in size(it has to, because our populations will continue to grow), and war will be waged again and again.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
34. Virtually all war is started by our leaders, not by The People
It's only after our leaders tell us lies about how evil the enemy is, and about how we're going to spread democracy, that they get enough popular support for their wars.
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Flaxbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-23-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
39. Kucinich calls it "a secret love of death":
(from his website)


Kucinich: Choose Peace Over War



Washington, Jul 18 -

Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) gave the following floor speech today:



“We make war with such certainty, yet are befuddled how to create peace. This paradox requires reflection, if we are to survive. Making and endorsing war demands a secret love of death, a fearful desire to embrace annihilation. Creating peace requires the mirror of compassion, putting ourselves in the other person’s place, in all their suffering, in all their hopes, and to act from our heart’s capacity for love, not fear.



“The fight against terrorism in the 21st century is beginning to have the feel of the fight against communism in the 20th century: Conjuring of enemies, scapegoating and wanton destruction. Our war on terror has become a war of errors.



“So we blindly exercise our capacity for war making. And, because we have not yet begun to explore our capacity for peacemaking, we are reduced to a predatory voyeurism, at once making war, watching war, being aghast at war, impotent to stop our own creation.



“We are the most powerful nation but, we do not have the power to reserve for ourselves, or to grant to our allies, an exemption from the laws of cause and effect.



“The fate of the world hangs in the balance. And until we consciously choose peace over war, life over death, the balance is tipping towards mutually assured destruction.”
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