MTP: Free Elections do not lead to democracy!!

[Sensitivity]

Tim Russert:

We have seen free eletions in Iraq -- now the speaker of the assembly calls us "Butchers"
We have free elections in Palestine -- and Hamas wins.
Free elections in Lebanon -- Hezbollah gets significant representation in the Lebanese government -- and not this war


It looks like free elections do not lead to democracy? What do we do about this?

----------


Was this just a verbal slip? You could of course promote rigged elections as in the U.S. and Mexico -- a good North American tradition!

[SpiralHawk]

1. War is peace

Ignorance is strength.

Hate is love.

Big BushCo -- and its corporate propagandist puppets -- love you.

[Toots]

2. What no mention of Chavez, Timmy must be slipping...

He also did not mention Bush* but I guess that was just soo obvious he didn't feel he nbeeded to..:shrug:

[bullimiami]

3. russert is just stupid. unfortunate for someone in news.

of course free elections (and the adherence to them) are the definition of democracy.

[Spazito]

4. What he means is ....

Free elections don't give us governments run by either puppets or fascists so let's stop allowing free elections, they are too dangerous and we might as well start at home.

[lonestarnot]

6. Start?

[Spazito]

8. ROFL, excellent point, finish would have been more accurate! n/t

[malaise]

14. In the 1960s in a country I know well

members of select elite families, staff from the Briitish & US embassy as well as trusted people in the catholic church would spend election day marking ballots (and drinking scotch) for the late afternoon stuffing.

I saw a lot of things as a child.:D

[Spazito]

19. LOL, I honestly haven't heard of ballot stuffing in Canada, although

there certainly were indications of non-counting of ballots during the last Quebec referendum on separation, but we DO have an unbelievable number of paved roads in the Maritimes that go nowhere, lol. In Canada, it was paved roads that bought the vote.

[malaise]

22. This was in a Caribbean Country

I kid you not.

[Spazito]

23. Wow, it seems the practice has spread far and wide....

given the various accusations of ballot stuffing in elections around the world. Not a new practice but, hopefully, one that will not be allowed to let slip by anymore. At least some countries in Europe, rumsfeld's "new Europe", the people are fighting back against it.

[malaise]

24. The Brits and Americans have been

doing this for ages in Latin America and the Caribbean, but they always need the army (in Latin America), local Chambers of Commerce, accepted political parties, elite families (you know those who feel really important dining with the queen or the American ambassador) and the good old catholic church.

If that doesn't work they divide and rule (guns arrive by the thousands) and let different working class groups devour themselves while they maintain control and continue to dine and drink scotch. They don't care who dies.

[Spazito]

25. In reality, not much has changed it seems

Divide and conquer is still the rule and the 1% elite still control the strings.

Sad, sad world we live in.

[Jim__]

5. Actually, I agre that free elections do not necessarily lead to democracy.

Although I disagree with his reasons. It's not because we (outsiders) may disagree with the result of an election; but because it is possible to set up an electin process in a nation, have almost every eligible voter in the nation freely cast their vote; and still not have democracy. if the people casting their votes are not ready to accept the results of the election; then, the follow-up to the election will probably not be a democratic government but some form of fighting for power.

Even if the elections we held in Iraq were completely free; I do not believe that the people of Iraq were willing to accept the results of the election. I don't believe that Iraq is a democracy today; whether or not it had free elections back in January.

[NoodleyAppendage]

7. Free elections lead to democracy, but not necessarily one US likes.

The US has been hypocritical on spreading democracy since the late 19th century. We're all for democracy as long as it suits our needs, but once that democracy asserts itself contrary to the "democracy" we like, then it's an issue.

J

[Ms. Clio]

10. bingo

[UTUSN]

9. Not to mention, does unprovoked, aggresion/invasion (not lead to democracy

[mom cat]

26. Only in George's wet dreams.

[Horse with no Name]

11. In other words

He is justifying the rigged elections that we have in our country.
And Bushco is just "saving us from ourselves".:crazy:

[IndyOp]

12. Translation: "democracy"="constant loyalty to US in all ways"

including allowing US to control land, markets, resources, and people even to the point that the people of one's nation die from US use and abuse.

THAT IS what the US ruling class believes IS "democracy"


Killing Hope. Over 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II...by William Blum (ex-CIA)

If you flip over the rock of American foreign policy of the past century, this is what crawls out ... invasions ... bombings ... overthrowing governments ... suppressing movements for social change ... assassinating political leaders ... perverting elections ... manipulating labor unions ...manufacturing "news" ... death squads ...torture ... biological warfare ...depleted uranium ... drug trafficking ...mercenaries ...

It's not a pretty picture.
It is enough to give imperialism a bad name.

Read the full details in:
Killing Hope - Over 250 Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum

"Far and away the best book on the topic." Noam Chomsky

Table of Contents
Introduction
1. China - 1945 to 1960s: Was Mao Tse-tung just paranoid?
2. Italy - 1947-1948: Free elections, Hollywood style
3. Greece - 1947 to early 1950s: From cradle of democracy to client state
4. The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s: America's oldest colony
5. Korea - 1945-1953: Was it all that it appeared to be?
6. Albania - 1949-1953: The proper English spy
7. Eastern Europe - 1948-1956: Operation Splinter Factor
8. Germany - 1950s: Everything from juvenile delinquency to terrorism
9. Iran - 1953: Making it safe for the King of Kings
10. Guatemala - 1953-1954: While the world watched
11. Costa Rica - Mid-1950s: Trying to topple an ally - Part 1
12. Syria - 1956-1957: Purchasing a new government
13. Middle East - 1957-1958: The Eisenhower Doctrine claims another backyard for America
14. Indonesia - 1957-1958: War and pornography
15. Western Europe - 1950s and 1960s: Fronts within fronts within fronts
16. British Guiana - 1953-1964: The CIA's international labor mafia
17. Soviet Union - Late 1940s to 1960s: From spy planes to book publishing
18. Italy - 1950s to 1970s: Supporting the Cardinal's orphans and techno-fascism
19. Vietnam - 1950-1973: The Hearts and Minds Circus
20. Cambodia - 1955-1973: Prince Sihanouk walks the high-wire of neutralism
21. Laos - 1957-1973: L'Armée Clandestine
22. Haiti - 1959-1963: The Marines land, again
23. Guatemala - 1960: One good coup deserves another
24. France/Algeria - 1960s: L'état, c'est la CIA
25. Ecuador - 1960-1963: A text book of dirty tricks
26. The Congo - 1960-1964: The assassination of Patrice Lumumba
27. Brazil - 1961-1964: Introducing the marvelous new world of death squads
28. Peru - 1960-1965: Fort Bragg moves to the jungle
29. Dominican Republic - 1960-1966: Saving democracy by getting rid of democracy
30. Cuba - 1959 to 1980s: The unforgivable revolution
31. Indonesia - 1965: Liquidating President Sukarno ... and 500,000 others
East Timor - 1975: And 200,000 more
32. Ghana - 1966: Kwame Nkrumah steps out of line
33. Uruguay - 1964-1970: Torture -- as American as apple pie
34. Chile - 1964-1973: A hammer and sickle stamped on your child's forehead
35. Greece - 1964-1974: "Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution," said
the President of the United States
36. Bolivia - 1964-1975: Tracking down Che Guevara in the land of coup d'etat
37. Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s: A less publicized "final solution"
38. Costa Rica - 1970-1971: Trying to topple an ally -- Part 2
39. Iraq - 1972-1975: Covert action should not be confused with missionary work
40. Australia - 1973-1975: Another free election bites the dust
41. Angola - 1975 to 1980s: The Great Powers Poker Game
42. Zaire - 1975-1978: Mobutu and the CIA, a marriage made in heaven
43. Jamaica - 1976-1980: Kissinger's ultimatum
44. Seychelles - 1979-1981: Yet another area of great strategic importance
45. Grenada - 1979-1984: Lying -- one of the few growth industries in Washington
46. Morocco - 1983: A video nasty
47. Suriname - 1982-1984: Once again, the Cuban bogeyman
48. Libya - 1981-1989: Ronald Reagan meets his match
49. Nicaragua - 1981-1990: Destabilization in slow motion
50. Panama - 1969-1991: Double-crossing our drug supplier
51. Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Teaching communists what democracy is all about
52. Iraq - 1990-1991: Desert holocaust
53. Afghanistan - 1979-1992: America's Jihad
54. El Salvador - 1980-1994: Human rights, Washington style
55. Haiti - 1986-1994: Who will rid me of this turbulent priest?
56. The American Empire - 1992 to present

Appendix I: This is How the Money Goes Round
Appendix II: Instances of Use of United States Armed Forces Abroad, 1798-1945
Appendix III: U. S. Government Assassination Plots

[malaise]

15. It's really that simple

and I wonder why people don't understand this. Defer to imperialism or die.

[Hosnon]

13. I've never thought free elections lead to democracy. Democracy is more

than voting. The population needs to be liberalized first or else you get a Palestine style election.

[Odin2005]

16. He's right but for the wrong reasons.

Democracy can only work when all sides accept legitimate election results. The problem in many 3rd world countries is that one grouo does not accept the elections, and therefore declares civil war.

[Recursion]

17. Free elections are the characteristic feature of democracies

What Russert means is they don't always mean liberal democracies who respect the rule of law.

This is true, not all democracies are liberal, and not all respect the rule of law. In fact, historically, democracy has been considered and anti-liberal force that tends to fall into a tyranny of the majority or plurality over various passions of the moment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. That's the problem when you have someone with such a strong bias

calling the news for us. They are not objective enough to interpret what they see. They can't understand that people view abuses in different ways, and sometimes, voting for a Hamas or an Hezbollah is the way for the public to call for balance.

[Cocoa]

20. he forgot Bill Clinton

he meant to include, "we saw free elections in 1992 and we got that draft-dodging skirt-chasing Hillary-marrying liberal."

[Rex]

21. So Russert is just now discovering this?

What a total loser, I knew this way back when I was taking political science 101. There are NO guarantees in life, PERIOD. Well one, but we all know what it is so no need to talk about it.

Russert = fool.

[w4rma]

27. That is democracy. Piss off a majority of the population and they'll elect

folks who don't like you.