Hezbollah over-played their hand and now Lebanon must pay. Huh??

[kentuck]

Just heard this report on CNN. Hezbollah stepped over the line when they "kidnapped" two Israeli soldiers? And now the entire country of Lebanon must pay for their stupidity? It's good that they did not kick the dog, also. Untelling what kind of bomb might be dropped on the people?

[The Magistrate]

1. Life Is Like That, Sir

"Sometimes the innocent pay for an old man's sins."

[Ms. Clio]

2. Like 9/11?

[kentuck]

3. Who are the "innocent" and who are the "guilty"...

If you kick my dog and I burn down your house, is it because you stepped "over the line"? Or is life like that?

[The Magistrate]

20. Doubtless, Sir, Different People Will Give You Different Answers To that

Mine would be that anyone who is not a serving member of an armed force, whether regular or irregular, would count as an innocent for purposes of the lyric....

[NNN0LHI]

4. The number of new recruits to become suicide bombers is incalculable

:scared:

[Casandra]

5. Not so sure

I'm not so sure who has created this mess! More and more, as the information comes out, there appears to be more than one group of culprits...and that does include Israel and hold your breath here, US!) I wish we could get some ADULTS in charge and send the schoolyard of neighborhood bullies home!!!

[Pepper32]

6. They never mention where the two soldiers were captured.

Perhaps this is why? The truth....


Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers

By IANS
Wednesday July 12, 04:01 PM

Beirut, July 12 (DPA) The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon.

'Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon,' a statement by Hezbollah said.


'The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place,' it added.


The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html




edited:to add link

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

56. A Source Or Link For This, Sir, Ought To Be Provided

[slaveplanet]

61. certainly

Lebanon exposes deadly Israeli spy ring
From Nicholas Blanford of The Times in Beirut

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2227831,00.html

Lebanese authorities have broken up an apparent Israeli spy ring whose members have claimed responsibility for a string of killings of leading Hezbollah and Palestinian militants since 1999.

The spies’ confessions, reported extensively in the Lebanese media, provide a rare glimpse into the clandestine battle between the Israeli Mossad intelligence agency and the Hezbollah organisation and its militant Palestinian allies.

In a bizarre twist, Hussein Khattab, a Palestinian member of the spy ring, who is still at large, is the brother of Sheikh Jamal Khattab, an Islamic cleric who has allegedly recruited Arab fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq.



Murr gives army full credit for cracking terror network

By Mohammed Zaatari and Karine Raad
Daily Star staff
Friday, June 16, 2006
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=73246

Defense Minister Elias Murr emphatically denied Hizbullah's assistance in this week's cracking of a terrorist network linked to Israel's Mossad spy agency, saying army intelligence had uncovered the Moufajaat Fajr (Dawn Surprises) cell single-handedly. Murr left no room for doubt when speaking to reporters following a meeting.

Have spies been helping the enemy find its targets?

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74112

Mahmoud Rafeh, the reported leader of the Mossad-linked terrorist network, confessed to carrying out assassinations and spying for Israel.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb

Judicial sources told The Daily Star Rafeh admitted receiving a list of names of Lebanese and Palestinian political figures to be assassinated on orders from Israel.

During interrogation, Rafeh confessed to the killing of Islamic Jihad member Mahmoud Majzoub and his brother Nidal mid May. He also claimed the killing of Hizbullah officials Ali Hassan Deeb and Ali Saleh on August 16, 1999 and August 2, 2003, respectively, and that of Jihad Jibril, the son of the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command leader Ahmad Jibril in May 20, 2002.

However, he denied any involvement in a string of assassinations in Beirut during 2005 and having any knowledge of who was behind the attacks.

Before the war began, Military Investigating Magistrate Adnan Bolbol had been expected to begin questioning witnesses in the Mossad case this month, the sources said.

Another terrorist cell was caught earlier this year in Lebanon, which was charged with having links to the fundamentalist group Al-Qaeda.

Lebanese man confesses to killings on behalf of Israel

http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_leb_man_killed_for_mossad.pdf

Haaretz

Pro-Syrian President Emile Lahoud said they proved that "Israel had not ceased
its attempts to sabotage Lebanon."
Television footage released by the Lebanese Army showed equipment it said
was used in the latest attack and discovered either at Rafeh's house in the
Lebanese town of Hasbaya, on the border with Israel, or in a chalet that he
used.
The find included what the army said was an Israeli camera that can be used to
take detailed photographs of streets while concealed within a bag, forged driving
licences and identity documents it said Rafeh had received from Israel.
The footage also showed an air conditioning unit and a large speaker converted
into secret cabinets that the army said were used to transport explosives used in
the Sidon bombing.
Other finds included a television cabinet and a table fitted with secret drawers to
conceal coded messaging devices.
The army said the attackers had used a car door, packed with explosives before
being smuggled from Israel, in the bombing that killed the two Islamic Jihad
officials in Sidon.

The USA and France protect Mossad
Jürgen Cain Külbel

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.jungewelt.de/2006/07-14/014.php&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmeir%2Bdagan%2Bjunge%2Bwelt%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

It referred to Secretary of Defense Elias Murr, which regards the determinations as "very probable" that Israeli military aircraft were involved by laser ignition in the detonation of carbombs.

President Émile Lahoud wants to hand the results of the Lebanese authorities to the UN-investigator over, Serge Brammertz, whose commission of inquiry wants to clear the murder up at the former Lebanese Prime Minister Hariri on 14 February 2005.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Security sources quoted by As-Safir newspaper Thursday said Rafeh confessed to transporting explosives across Lebanon in briefcases since early 2005, but were unable to determine the end result of the explosives as Rafeh was allegedly tied to more than one Israeli network.
(Murr gives army full credit for cracking terror network, The Daily Star, June 16, 2006)



Al-Manar provides a more detailed account:

Investigations with Lebanese Mossad agent, Mahmoud Rafea continued, and revealed that Rafea had since the Spring of 2005, delivered bombs in black suitcases, to several locations in Beirut, its eastern suburbs, Mount Lebanon and the South. Meanwhile, security forces are still after Palestinian Mossad agent, Hussein Khattab, who is now suspected of leading a Mossad network of his own.
...
Rafea admitted he had delivered, since the Spring of 2005, bombs in black suitcases to different locations, in eastern Beirut, Mount Lebanon, South Lebanon. Security Forces however did not yet determine how these bombs were used.
...
Apparently the operations of Rafea and his network intersected with the operations of other Israeli Mossad networks. Security Forces are focusing on this new information, while seeking to capture Rafea's partners, on top of which is Palestinian Mossad agent, Hussein Khattab.

According to reports, Khattab might be leading a Mossad network of his own, that carried out a series of assassinations and bombings, other than those committed by Rafea's network.

According to Assafir daily, the Israelis might have unclosed Rafea and Khattab's networks to each other, to carry out the assassination of Jihad Ahmad Jibril, of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command in 2002. Previous Israeli assassination attempts failed to harm Jibril, and therefore efforts of more than one network had to be combined to kill the man.

(Lebanese authorities still searching for the rest of Mossad network), Al-Manar, June 15, 2006


---------------------------------

So why did you delete my other post after I provided the links? Did the post not reflect what's already been reported worldwide?

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

80. And Now, Sir, It Would Be Pleasant To See

How you propose to relate all this to a patrol by a squad of reservists along the border between the countries....

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

85. None Of That, Sir

Establishes a connection between a squad of reservists patrolling on the border, and these sort of garden variety cover war activities. It does not establish the reservists were not on Israeli ground, at least as the United Nations defines it, nor does it establish that if they were over the border, they were there for any clandestine and nefarious purpose. It is, in fact, absolutely irrelevant to the reservists and their position and the circumstances of the Hezzbollah engagement with their patrol.

Do you have any information that bears directly on that?

[earthside]

7. The Truth is Being Revealed

The capture of the Israeli soldiers was merely the pretext for Israel to do what it had planned to do all along ... kind of like 9/11 was the Pearl Harbor event that the neocons needed to launch their plans to attack Iraq and conquer the rest of the world.

From the Matthew Kalman in today's San Francisco Chronicle:

Israel set war plan more than a year ago
Strategy was put in motion as Hezbollah began gaining military strength in Lebanon

... More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail. Under the ground rules of the briefings, the officer could not be identified.

In his talks, the officer described a three-week campaign: The first week concentrated on destroying Hezbollah's heavier long-range missiles, bombing its command-and-control centers, and disrupting transportation and communication arteries. In the second week, the focus shifted to attacks on individual sites of rocket launchers or weapons stores. In the third week, ground forces in large numbers would be introduced, but only in order to knock out targets discovered during reconnaissance missions as the campaign unfolded. There was no plan, according to this scenario, to reoccupy southern Lebanon on a long-term basis. ...

[rocktivity]

9. And I thought it was just me who thought that Israel's response

was remarkably well prepared. Well, this explains the US reluctance to back a cease fire.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Minnesota Libra]

15. Why are all these reports about the planning of.............

...war dated in the last day or so and not from a year ago, or even six months ago, if indeed this has been in the planning stages that long?? :shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

23. why did we only find out that Bush planned to invade Iraq from Day 1

of his stolen presidency after the war started?

:shrug:

[Minnesota Libra]

51. You really think the two incidents can be compared?? ..........

.....I think comparing Israel's supposed year long planning for war with 9/11 is way off base. It's way too convenient to claim a year later that someone has planned for an entire year for war. On the other hand, Arabs/Muslims/Hizballoh/Hamas/etc have been carrying out suicide bombings, backpack bombings, etc inside Israel for well over a year. So who knows, can't say I'd blame Israel if they did have this in the planning stages for a while.

BTW, I can guarantee you every country on the face of this earth - if they have any brains at all - have contingency plans of all kinds including war with any and every neighbor - especially if those neighbors are your self-professed enemies.

Please, let's not flame each other because I can assure you, you won't convinced me and I won't convince you of anything.

BTW, I and many others in this country didn't need any reports to tell us even before Sept 11 that idiot boy had something in the works. On 9/11 and especially when idiot boy was filmed reading to kids in school and didn't excuse himself right away to leave I said right then to someone that was in the room with me, "That idiot already knows what is going on. Mark my word that jerk knows all about this already." So I wasn't so naive as to need someone to tell me anything.

[Ms. Clio]

52. and the U.S. had been attacked by al-Qaeda previously

so in fact yes, the 2 situations are comparable in that respect.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eleny]

10. And btw, it's all Iran's fault

[Marie26]

12. It probably is. nt

[Marie26]

11. It isn't about the soldiers.

That's the first thing you need to know to understand this thing. The MSM has it all wrong when they keep pretending Israel is doing this just to get its soldiers back. They're doing this to end Hizbollah.

[Ms. Clio]

13. no, that's their stated purpose

not the only or even the most important reason.

[Obamarama]

14. Thank God SOMEBODY sees the light.

Thanks, Marie.

[Marie26]

34. You're welcome. :)

Please let me know if any of my posts are wrong on this - we all are just watching this second-hand, but you actually experienced it. Best wishes to you & your family.

[Mandate My Ass]

16. it's the best recruiting tool Hezbollah ever had

See: Iraq, Afghanistan.

[Marie26]

18. Or maybe not.

Hizbollah gained strength cause they were seen as a winner after they pushed Israel out. If they're completely disarmed in Lebanon, while bringing chaos to the country, maybe they won't be seen as such a winner anymore. Israel did the same thing to the PLO in 1982, & did manage to kick the PLO out of Lebanon. This might do the same for Hizbollah.

[Mandate My Ass]

21. whatever

Maybe the next group won't call itself Hezbollah. Maybe the families of the dead, maimed, impoverished, homeless Lebanese will call themselves something else.

[Marie26]

24. Maybe.

That's why I feel like Israel is caught in this endless game of Whack-A-Mole. As soon as they stop one terrorist organization, another springs up in its place.

[Mandate My Ass]

29. they "spring up"? just like that, huh?

Maybe if they stop whacking the innocent and the guilty alike, and start a dialogue, those pesky terrorist organizations will stop springing up.

[Marie26]

32. Maybe

And maybe if the Arab nations would just learn to let go & stop supporting these terrorist groups, Israel wouldn't need to keep using ruthless tactics to stop them. It's an endless circle of violence.

[Mandate My Ass]

36. and we support israel, *and* we attacked two middle eastern countries

both of which are now in near anarchy after years of death and destruction, all in the name of fighting terrorism. We're now hated by more of the world than ever before. Terrorist groups are fluorishing in both countries. More of the same? You bet. Why anybody thinks this one will work out differently is beyond me.

The opinion of who wears the white hats and who wears the black hats are quite different depending on in which country you live. Arab countries are more sympathetic to other Arab countries, so one man's terrorist is another's resistance to western aggression soldier.

Food for thought.

[Marie26]

44. What other choice do they have?

That's what I always come back to. I look at what's happening in Lebanon & want to cry. I think it's a war crime & it may well inspire more terrorism. But here's my question - if you were the PM of Israel, w/a terrorist group devoted to your destruction amassing weapons on your border, that's getting money & missiles from an enemy, & that has launched missiles at your towns & crossed the border to kill/capture your soldiers, what would you do? Let's hear it.

By the way, other Arab nations have condemned Hizzbollah's actions, nations that are no fan of Israel - Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE. Food for thought.

[Mandate My Ass]

47. of course they condemned them because they were taking out innocent

civilians.

Now Israel is doing that. I don't see either the morality or strategy of doing what your enemy does only ten times worse that will bring about a desired result. I don't see how anybody can justify attacking an entire country whose government was not involved in your grievance for the sake of rooting out a group of militants.

It doesn't make sense to me at all and it's not legal to boot.

[Marie26]

48. So, you're not answering the question.

If you were Israel's PM, how would you handle the situation?

[Leopolds Ghost]

87. Israel does not *need* to use ruthless tactics. n/t

[Marie26]

88. Perhaps not.

But they might think that. I'm hoping maybe somebody can come up w/a better, plausible solution.

[Pepper32]

17. That's the whole point

I don't think anyone really believes this is about two soldiers. But to justify what Israel is doing they are using that excuse, which doesn't hold up because it's not accurate.

They should just come out and say what this is really all about but of course that will never happen. And it's not hard to figure out why.

[Marie26]

22. Actually, Israel isn't even

saying that. If you listen to their leaders, they're very clear about why they're doing this & what their intentions are. They've said that they want to disarm Hizbollah & create a buffer zone in S. Lebanon. I blame the dumb American media who's spinning this in a way that they think will be more acceptable to the US public. But anyone w/eyes can see that isn't the truth. They would be better off actually explaining the geo-political reasons behind Israel's actions, but IMO they think that's too complicated for the US public to understand (or maybe too complicated for the vapid TV news to understand).

[Ms. Clio]

25. how big of a "buffer zone?" And what happens when the rockets get better?

Will the "buffer zone" continuously expand?

2 rockets hit the Green Zone in Baghdad yesterday. How much of a "buffer zone" do you think the U.S. will need to carve out of the city if that continues to occur?

[Marie26]

30. Prolly

up to the Litani River, like last time. That's enough to keep the Katyusha rockets from hitting Israel. It doesn't stop the bigger rockets, though - but destroying the supply lines & weapons stockpiles throughout Lebanon might. They're hoping to wipe out Hizbollah so they don't get a chance to make "better" missiles. If Israel did nothing, & waited, Hizbollah would just keep getting stronger & accumulating better long-range missiles. Iraq comparisons are just an attempt to change the subject.

[Ms. Clio]

35. they are not going to "wipe out" Hezbollah

it was Hezbollah that drove them out before, and if it isn't "Hezbollah" that does it again, it will be a new group.

Up to the river, you say? How convenient, in a region where water is so precious.

And of course the comparisons to Iraq are apt, for those who see that one invasion and occupation based on misrepresentations is just like another.

[Marie26]

40. Sigh

I feel like everyone needs to read an encyclopedia article about Israel & Lebanon before making these sorts of wild comparisons. This is not the Iraq invasion.

[Ms. Clio]

41. Sigh

it is now. Invasion and occupation and the deaths of civilians.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

84. so personal attacks against me stand

What the hell?

[Minnesota Libra]

26. For months there had been.....

....dozens if not hundreds of backpack bombings, suicide bombings, etc in Israel's public places. During all that I wondered what "the straw that broke the camel's back" would be for Israel. I guess we now know, the kidnapping of two soldiers.

[Pepper32]

45. Yes, a kidnapping they provoked

So what you're saying is Israel's actions were justifiable even if the soldiers were never kidnapped? If that's so why did they provoke this "kidnapping" and use it as the excuse/straw that broke the camel's back?

The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they 'infiltrated' into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html

[Marie26]

49. Baloney

This has already been debunked many times - citing a random Indian article won't change that. The soldiers were captured at the Israeli border. I'll look for the DU link for you.

[Pepper32]

53. Yeah, when all else fail...

...attack the news source. We all know US media is the only source for fair, truthful and balanced reporting of events.

[Marie26]

54. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1653859

[Pepper32]

57. Hmm..

A bunch of hearsay hardly debunks the credible news article I cited. The only article that was cited in the whole thread was this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm and they have no reason to be bias right? Ok, I'll play along...

[Marie26]

59. Yeah, that Hezbollah

is so biased, always trying to promote the Israeli point of view.

The Hezbollah statement: "Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine".

NO mention of the Israeli soliders being in Lebanon at the time they were captured.

[Pepper32]

64. ....

The article I cited quoted the same statement, however they included the statements from the police.


BBC would never omit facts... I know.

[Minnesota Libra]

62. Excuse?? Israel provoke kidnapping their own soldier - that's.............

.....totally unbelievable except of course from the Israel can't do anything right and Arabs/Muslims/Hizballoh/Hamas can't do anything wrong crowd. I can't believe some of the logic used.

Are some people also going to claim Israel had something to do with planning all the suicide bombings, backpack bombings in it's own markets and public places???

[Obamarama]

46. Months??? Try YEARS....

But yes, Minnesota...you are one of the smart ones here today.

[Cleita]

27. I just heard something interesting on the radio.

In the year 2000 three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by one of the terrorist groups in Lebanon. Absolutely nothing happened. So what makes this incident so different? Does anybody have the original story filed away someplace?

[Obamarama]

31. It's all the shit that has happened since then....

This ISN'T about kidnapped soldiers. This is about Israel having the right to defend itself. PERIOD.

[Cleita]

38. Although I agree with any nation's right to defend themselves, I

don't agree with killing everyone in sight to do it. I don't approve of the way we retaliated for 9-11 and I'm sorry I can't condone going into neighborhoods and destroying homes and killing families as defense because of terrorist actions. We have lots of lessons in the past to show us it only escalates violence and doesn't end it.

[Minnesota Libra]

66. I don't understand why some people think Arabs/Muslims/etc are so.........

....abused, mistreated, and otherwise done wrong to - if Israel does anything in retaliation for public bombings, backpack bombs set off in public places, and other acts of terrorism?? I truly don't get why it's wrong for Israel to retaliate but Arabs/Muslims/Hisballoh/Hamas are within their rights to carry out all the above mentioned and more???? :shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

68. Why do you lump "Arabs,Muslims,Hisbollah and Hamas" together like that?

That's a huge part of the problem right there.

[Minnesota Libra]

71. Maybe for the same reason people lump all Americans together..............

....even though some are neocon/fundie, some are liberal, some are whatever/American. All American, right?? I don't know how many are Hisballoh, Hamas, etc so I do the "lump together" thing. So ok, I'll bite, what part in your opinion is "....a huge part of the problem right there."??

[Ms. Clio]

72. Because there are Arabs and Muslims in dozens of countries

huge numbers of them not even in the Middle East (Indonesia) and they don't all think alike about everything.

It betrays a dangerous ignorance of complex realities.

[Minnesota Libra]

74. I'd be willing to buy into that argument except for one thing.............

.....I haven't heard too many Arabs/Muslims speaking out against Hisballoh, Hamas, or any other terrorist group for that matter.

At least we Americans - I used that in my example - have the ability to speak out against our own and we do it on a pretty regular basis too. As I said, Haven't heard much of that from Muslims/Arabs/Hisballoh/Hamas/Palestinians/etc.

[Ms. Clio]

75. Oh, so you haven't heard 1 billion people "speaking out"

so they all get lumped together.

okee dokee.

[blonndee]

76. You really should read more if you want to learn about it.

Didn't I point out something similar to you last week? Anyway, here's something to think about:

<snip>
Moderate states led by the region's political and economic heavyweight Saudi Arabia lashed out at Hezbollah for starting the recent fight, while hard-liner Syria defended its ally.

"These acts will pull the whole region back ... and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal told his counterparts, according to delegates who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the meeting.

Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, including the capture of two Israeli soldiers Wednesday and rocket barrages, were "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts," one delegate said.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait,
Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, he said.

more at http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_arabs_3

[Ms. Clio]

77. oh, piffle, he hasn't heard from every Muslim on the planet yet

[Marie26]

78. Well, actually lots

of Arab countries are speaking out about Hizbollah right now. But it's not because they're so concerned w/human rights. The Sunni Arab countries are worried that Shiite Iran is gaining power in the region. Hizbollah is a proxy for Iran.

[Igel]

63. The obvious response is that

Israel was being patient and showing restraint.

Even when, it seemed, UNIFIL was present sufficiently to videotape the incident--then refused to turn over the videotape as long as the kidnappers faces were visible.

Peacekeepers and monitors, terrified of those they were monitoring. Truly the moral high ground.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Little Star]

28. Read this article........

I think this current incident in Lebanon started before the 2 soldiers were captured. This article is from the end of May 2006

Lebanon border fight with Israel following assassination
Lebanon-Israel, Military, 5/29/2006

Al-Manar reported today that the launching of an attack against Israeli targets across from the Lebanese border, was done anonymously, and came following the assassination of a Palestinian Islam Jihad leader in south Lebanon Friday morning.

Al-Manar reported that "The Islamic resistance retaliation against Sunday's Israeli aggression resulted in re-establishing the equation that necessitates bombing Israeli targets in northern occupied Palestine when Lebanese civilians are targeted. As official and popular Lebanon condemned the assault, some February 14 figures questioned Hezbollah's proposed defensive strategy for Lebanon, that is due to be discussed at the round table, on June the 8th."

the report said "The Israeli escalation on the southern Lebanese border Sunday was the fiercest in months. Until this afternoon, Israeli warplanes and reconnaissance planes were still violating the country's airspace and carrying out mock raids, as they were flying over South Lebanon and Beirut. This follows the Israeli aggression against Lebanon and retaliation by the Islamic resistance.." against a sensitive Israeli airbase near the city of Safad. <snip>

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/060529/2006052921.html

[madrchsod]

39. they knew the israeli government would over react.

that`s what they wanted and the idf granted their wish...dead on both sides and billions of dollars of damage in lebanon for two soldiers....

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. Read Dershowitz Today

apparently, Lebanese civilians who fail to escape the Israeli bombs are not quite innocent and are not quite human.

[Ms. Clio]

43. Alan "Torture is Justified" Dershowitz

this is of course also the "logic" of many here.

[Igel]

65. A UN spokesman has also

complained after their bases in the south of Lebanon were hit. Hezbollah set up missile launches and fired at Israel, and then high-tailed it out of there when Israel responded with artillery.

The UN bases were hit. But the demand from the UN was that Israel stop returning fire.

Hiding behind Ghanaian UN peacekeepers ... And have the demand not be that Hezbollah stop using them, but that Israel stop returning fire.

[Ms. Clio]

yes, so the answer is to occupy 15 square miles of a "buffer zone"

and destroy Lebanese infrastructure throughout the entire country.

[Igel]

86. Perhaps the answer is to

politely request that Mr. Nasrallah, the prime minister of the state of Hezbollah, not so blatantly violate international law in the exercise of its rights as a free and independent state.

But that would require Hezbollah's independence, which would mean that Nasrallah wouldn't be what's hiding behind Lebanon's skirts any more.

But seriously: There's no defense for Hezbollah in this. Nasrallah believes, it seems, that the UN--like the government of Lebanon--is there to protect Hezbollah with its monthly outburst. Like a giant pad, absorbing any blood.

[NNN0LHI]

58. When someone suggests reading Alan "The Torturer" Dershowitz I get...

:scared:

[Marie26]

67. No, thanks. Blech. nt

[karnac]

50. Hezbollah firing at Israel from CIVILIAN areas

As far as I am concerned, Hezbollah just provided israel with an excuse to attack with the kidnapping. In this case, I side with Lebanon. that does not merit an attack on civilians.

But if you fire at Israel civilians from populated areas in Lebanon with rockets you just made that area a legitimate target.

Hezbollah obviously doesn't give a flying f*ck about Lebanese they just endangered. If they did, they would attack israel from unpopulated areas.

Some heros.

[Cleita]

55. Yes, it's true that certain neighborhoods will harbor

terrorists in safety, but destroying them and their families is not justified. I'm sure those five-year-olds playing in the street had nothing to do with it. This is where an intelligent plan is needed to flush out the terrorists not brute force. I really have never felt that collateral damage was a legitimate premise. Remember how outraged we were when Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma killing all those toddlers that attending nursery school there? I know that ordinary Lebanese citizens who don't have an axe to grind with Israel will be equally outraged. It's not a good way to seek peace.

[karnac]

60. Hiding behind civilians is not a path for peace either

Listen, the israeli govt has one reason to exist. to protect/provide for it's people. Not to care for lebanese. that is for those that live in their midst. I don't give a damn where Hezbollah sleeps. but if you amass arms, and attack FROM somewhere you just made that somewhere a legitimate target.

Your issue should be with Hezbollah, not Israel.

Convince Hezbollah not to do what they do, and you have solved the problem. that is the ONLY Solution.

If you don't and merely whine about how somebody protects themself then you have simply enabled the terrorists that call themselves Hezbollah.

[Cleita]

73. You have the anser when you stated

Convince Hezbollah not to do what they do, and you have solved the problem. that is the ONLY Solution.
Killing civilians especially children isn't going to solve the problem but escalate it because you just acquired new terrorists with your action. These were people who had no dog in the fight but now do.

[0rganism]

81. right for all the wrong reasons

> Convince Hezbollah not to do what they do, and you have solved the problem.

Unfortunately, karnac is correct. And because the current course of action is completely the opposite of "convincing Hezbollah not to do what they do", it will not only not solve the problem, it will exacerbate the problem.

Look, what is the likely best-case outcome scenario of the Israeli bombardment and ground invasion? A DMZ "buffer" of maybe 20 or 30 km in which anyone seen entering is subject to bombardment, and the destruction of the very stockpiles the "buffer zone" just made obsolete. That's it. That's all even the Israeli hawks are hoping for, really. So it's not a solution to the problem; just because a Katyusha rocket doesn't go far enough yet doesn't mean Hezbollah won't have something bigger and nastier 10 years from now, and occupying the entirety of Lebanon just isn't an option, even for the almighty IDF. It's not an effective way to disrupt Hezbollah long-term, let alone end anti-Israeli terrorism, nor is it scalable or sustainable.

What is the likely worst-case outcome? Civil war in Lebanon, continued terrorist attacks on and kidnappings of Israelis and anyone perceived to be associated with Israel, intensified regional antipathy vs. Israel, possible direct Syrian military engagement against Israel, embargos and blockades of Western Lebanon, and civilian death, lots and lots of civilian death. All of this, of course, strengthens terrorist organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas, which have civilian outreaches to provide the humanitarian aid that a crippled and ineffective government cannot.

Nowhere in the gameplan is the notion of "convincing Hezbollah not to do what they do." It's not even on the table, not even an option, and if it were, it would be impossible to implement under current circumstances.

Unfortunately, the burden of proof is on Israel, to show that it can coexist peacefully with its neighbors. We may not like it, but that's the way it has to be before something like "convincing Hezbollah not to do what they do" becomes realistic. The only people who can do so are the governments of the countries that support their operations and the local civilians who house them. They have to see evidence that Israel will negotiate in good faith with the Lebanese and the Syrians, yes indeed, to achieve its ends peacefully, before they will even consider such a course. Israel's bombardments will only serve to harden the very hearts Israel needs to soften, and karnac's "only solution" becomes more and more distant every day.

[Ms. Clio]

82. a very thoughtful post

especially this:

"Nowhere in the gameplan is the notion of "convincing Hezbollah not to do what they do." It's not even on the table, not even an option, and if it were, it would be impossible to implement under current circumstances."

[KoKo]

79. Had heated debate...

with hubby over this. Said to him: "But, if Hezbollah supports hosptials and services for the poor" then the poor will support them and they were elected."

Hubby who is also a Dem...but not a "bunker populist Dem Undergrounder like me said: "The Repug RW is only about 25% of the population, yet they "terrorize us" by stealing elections and our government and they laugh about it."

I said: "You don't get it...I feel like we who know elections were stolen and the media has been corrupted (and all the rest that we DU'ers have cataloged over these years) and we Dems are even NOW put in the position of fighting against Dem, Joe Lieberman, Nancy Pelosi and are "underground fighting for our LIVES." He said: "The Repugs are the TERRORISTS and they
are ruling US Govt. with 25% of the population supporting them."

I thought that was interesting...in that I see those of us on the Internet trying to go back to the "Revolutionaries" who founded America (killing Native Americans, and enslaving Africans) and still thinking they got "something correct" in trying to compose a "Declaration of Independence" and a "Bill of Rights" as a FRAMEWORK that would evolve into "ending Slavery and allowing "Women the Right to Vote" because they were "pressed for time and lived in the Male Dominated time they lived in and YET they anticipated a "flexible Constitution" that would "evolve" given that they had "time constraints on their getting "something together."

Anyway....I see us here on the "Liberal Internets" as terrorists who are a threat of "change" for both Dem and Repug Parties. Hubby, who is also a Dem of long standing....see's the Repugs as the Terrorists supporting other terrorists considering that Bush only RULES with 25% of a base that is destroying America with their Religious Evangelism.

I go with MY VIEW...but Hubby had an "interesting twist" on it, I think. :shrug:

Both Limbaugh and Coulter have taken to calling us on the Left "Terraists" and they are followed by the Faux News and Conservative Media
with articles verifying that "We on the Left" are promoting terrorism every time we question "Bush/Cheney/NeoCon/PNAC" principles as fed through from the "THINK TANKS" supported by Corporatists.

I don't know...but thought I'd put this out there.....Hubby and Me have differences. I'm more RADICAL. But, he's pretty good on his own.

Wouldn't it be great if we could have dialog about how to "Hammer Policy" when we have the DLC (My Hubby with some reservations) and "ME" (Populist Dem who loves David Sirota) coming TOGETHER?

:shrug:

ON EDIT: Excuse Typos and the rest...because I'm cooking dinner...and the "black eyed peas" are wilting in the pot...maybe burned...sorry...rushing..