Israeli warplanes struck a minibus carrying people fleeing the fighting

[bigtree]

Civilian Deaths Mount in Mideast Violence

BEIRUT, Lebanon Jul 23, 2006 (AP)— Israeli warplanes struck a minibus carrying people fleeing the fighting Sunday in southern Lebanon, killing three people, Lebanese security officials said, and two people were killed as about 90 Hezbollah rockets fell on northern Israel.

A member of the U.N. observer team in south Lebanon was wounded by guerrilla fire and a Lebanese photographer became the first journalist to die in the fighting when an Israeli missile hit near her taxi in southern Lebanon.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2227000


How long will supporters of Israel continue to call these civilian killings 'defense'?

Is this revenge for the Hizbollah rockets, or is there some other strategy in killing Lebanese civilians?

[Lerkfish]

1. Since US/Israel apparently planned this a year ago, I'd say it doesn't

matter what hezbollah's response is.
There's plan and everthing that happens from this point is just contigencies.

[bigtree]

2. Under-fire civilians `living in hell'

Israel has unleashed more air strikes on Lebanon and Hezbollah fired rockets at Haifa, as a senior United Nations official demanded a halt to the violence to allow aid to reach desperate civilians.

Monday, July 24, 2006

Israel has unleashed more air strikes on Lebanon and Hezbollah fired rockets at Haifa, as a senior United Nations official demanded a halt to the violence to allow aid to reach desperate civilians.

Civilians have taken the brunt of the 12-day war that has cost 365 lives in Lebanon and killed 37 Israelis. "We have been living in hell," said Lebanese farmer Mohammad Zabad, 45.

Israeli factory worker Keren Hagigi said he witnessed horrific scenes after a rocket hit an industrial zone in Haifa.

"There were wounded people on the road and a wounded person in the building too. There was terrible destruction," he said.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?we_cat=6&art_id=23490&sid=8981259&con_type=1&d_str=20060724

[malaise]

10. BBC International

is now showing burnt and injured children and their parents in Lebanese hospitals. Even the reporters are now angry.

[CuteNFuzzy]

21. Journalists are not just angry

They're being murdered too

[lonestarnot]

90. Damn.

[blonndee]

3. Dammit!

Dammit, dammit, dammit! :mad:

[SammyBlue]

4. Quick. . .Israelis are killing every innocent Arab they find.

It's a holocaust being committed by oppressive Israelis. The oppressed of old have become the oppressors! Quick, blame Israel!

Was this attack part of a larger one? Apparently it was. You know, when a bomb falls, it doesn't discriminate on who it kills.

But, hey. . .anything to blame Israel first, right?

on edit: Where are all the news stories of Hezbollah attacking Israel and killing Israeli civilians? Nary a peep is made. . .because to the world (as has been the case for 2000 years) and the media, Jewish blood is cheap and worthless.

Israel has lost the media war. The Right wing in the world hates Israel. . .and now, so does the left wing, who were the ones who fought to establish Israel in the first place..

[bigtree]

7. you don't have any ground to paint me with your defensive brush

Address this incident dammit. Enough with the deflections. What is the strategy in bombing a minibus?* How does that act make Israel more secure?

Also, since you obviously blame Hizbollah, no matter what Israel does in response, explain to me how Hizbollah MADE Israel bomb this minivan.

edit:*

[SammyBlue]

14. I will use your words against you

Address every incident of Hezbollah targetting schools buses and marketplaces. Enough with the deflections. What is the strategy in bombing a school bus? How does that act make the Palestinians have a better chance at a country?

Also, since you obviously blame Israel, no matter what Hezbollah does period, explain to me how Israel MADE Hezbollah bomb every marketplace, school bus, disco and plaze they bomb.

I wait your defense of Hezbollah actions, since Israel is to blame for everything.

[bigtree]

31. I've been clear about my disgust for what Hizbollah is doing

I don't have to do that in every thread just to satisfy you. What you are doing here is disruptive and dishonest. You are throwing around accusations about poster's motives without any ground. You are picking fights without addressing the original post. You are disrupting my thread. I asked two questions which you haven't answered. You need to stop spamming my thread.

[SammyBlue]

33. No I am not "throwing around accusations."

I am asking questions and backing up my position with the facts and research I have done.

[bigtree]

36. Did you accuse me and others of not caring about Israeli deaths?

where did you get THAT research?

[SammyBlue]

39. Did you see me say "Big Tree. . .you don't care."

No. . .what I said was. . .I am using you exact words you typed. . .just changing the subjects.

What I typed was exactly what you typed, with Arabs taken out and Israeli added in.

And to use your words again against you:

Did you accuse me of not caring about Lebanese deaths?

I do, but I support Israel.

[bigtree]

45. Then answer the questions

What policy is Israel employing that allows them to deliberately fire on a minivan from the air? Why did they employ a strategy that would result in so many innocent Lebanese deaths?

If it is a deliberate policy then explain what result they expect to come from the civilian killings? They don't seem to have had any effect in ending the violence from Hizbollah.

[SammyBlue]

58. Okay. . .now that the shouting match is over, I will

1: From what I read, this was a larger military operation. The bus was in the area. I do not believe, from my knowledge of IDF training (one of my best friends is a Captain there. . .one of my Fraternity brothers knows and is family friends with a 3 star General in the IDF. My best friend's father in law is a retired colonel from the IDF. The IDF tries to deflect as many innocent deaths as possible.

2: Why did they employ a strategy? Being not in the IDF, I don't know. I doubt they sat around and said "how many innocents can we kill." However, in the past, Hezbollah has uses civilians as sheilds, so when the IDF does attack, Hezbollah can use the deaths as a recruiting tool. This has been well documented during the 1980s and the recent intafada.

3: You're assuming it's deliberate. I doubt it is.

Now, I have answered your questions. Answer mine.

[bigtree]

67. Hizbollah

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1692942

[bigtree]

77. I think the strategy has failed. It has resulted in hundreds of innocent

Lebanese deaths without any noticible lessening of the threat to Israel. I would argue that the killings have actually caused many in Lebanon to re-think their move to independence from Syria and has caused others to, once again, view Hizbollah as their defense against Israel. I'm not saying that it's a sound choice by them, but I don't see anything in the way of a safe haven for them, politically or otherwise. Which entity in Lebanon would YOU recommend they align with today? I notice you (incorrectly) conflate the Lebanese government with Hizbollah. Has Israel provided any way for Lebanese to surrender? Is that a wise choice for them to subject themselves to Israeli prisons? Where are they to flee to? They are being picked off on the roads. Do you know what woods they should take refuge in after they flee their modern homes which are being reduced to rubble? Where will they get food, electricity, medical care, now that the Israelis have bombed out their infrastructure?

Has any of this actually affected Hizbollah to the degree that attacks on Israel have lessened?


edit:sp

[liberalhistorian]

51. Bullshit, you are doing no such thing and

you know it. You are simply throwing around the "anti-Israel" strawman to deflect any discussion of what Israel has done in this particular incident. And we're all getting pretty tired of that worn-out tactic, dude.

[SammyBlue]

71. And I am getting tired of the constant attacks on Israel, sir!

I am tired of Israel always being wrong in its actions in the eyes of the world.

I am tired of Jewish blood being cheap to Europeans, to European leaders, to the United Nations and to the World Community in general!!!

You, sir. . .blindly attack Israel and someone who supports them is just supposed to cower in a corner??? I do not appease and I do not give up! You, sir. . .are speaking for yourself, as I am speaking for myself. If you don't like it, tough! You are simply throwing around the "blame Israel for everything. . .before Israel we had no ME enemies, now we have no ME friends" strawman to deflect any discussion of anything that can be said to defend Israel. And I'm getting pretty tired of that worn-out tactic, sir.

[LostinVA]

108. She's a ma'am, not a sir

She is a very Progressive poster in a very Progressive career, and I didn't see her blindly attack Israel. I did see you blindly attack her and also blindly defend the Israeli government in post after post... no matter right.

Israeli military are murdering innocents. Our military is murdering innocents in Iraq. We all KNOW the terrorists are bad... but, we also know that what's happening now is collective punishment and 13-day terror with no end in sight... all partially orchestrated by the people who are killing Iraqi civilians for no reason.

Blind allegiance is zealotry, and zealotry is dangerous. And, I will no longer engage in dialogue with zealots of any stripe... because it is not a dialogue.


zeal·ot·ry Pronunciation (zl-tr)
n.
Excessive zeal; fanaticism.

[Lindacooks]

83. I will use your words against you.

"Was this attack part of a larger one? Apparently it was. You know, when a bomb falls, it doesn't discriminate on who it kills.

But, hey. . .anything to blame Hezbollah first, right?

on edit: Where are all the news stories of Israel attacking Lebanon and killing Lebanese civilians? Nary a peep is made. . .because to the world (as has been the case for 2000 years) and the media, Arab blood is cheap and worthless."

By the way, it's the RIGHT WING that is unconditionally supporting Israel no matter what they do - the neocons, Bush, and the Repukes. Feel good about being on their side?

[Lerkfish]

11. I think you should read this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1712282&mesg_id=1712282

the BIGGER question is, WHY is Israel intentionally targeting infrastructure, and non-military industrial targets, airports, tv and radio stations and phone lines?

I'm curious what explanation you have?

[SammyBlue]

12. But it's okay when Hezbollah intentionally targets, as you put it,

"infrastructure (mass transit), and non-military industrial targets" like school buses and marketplaces?

Just looking to see when Hezbollah and Hamas go over the line.

[Lerkfish]

38. I don't think you're getting my point.

number one: don't put words in my mouth in your anger.
I challenge you to find anywhere I have said its ok for Hezbollah to target civilians.
my point was, and you have yet to address: WHY is Israel adopting a scorched earth policy with their incursion into Lebanon?
WHY are they systematically destroying infrastructure?

What is the long range plan, here? We now know that apparently US and Israel have been planning this for a year.
The question is, why?

If it was in retaliation to the two captured soldiers, how could they know that would happen one year ago?

tell you what, you stop accusing me of bizarre things I never said, and then maybe we can start having rational discussions, ok?

I GET that you think Israel is the beesknees. Ok, then, why would a country that is nothing but good intentions, intentionally destroy infrastructure?

what is the ultimate purpose there?

[oberliner]

84. Article adressing these questions

Excerpt from article in the San Francisco Chronicle:

The Israelis have several goals in Lebanon. First, they want to degrade Hezbollah's military capacity as much as possible. To do so, they are attacking not only rocket launchers and storage sites, but also the air, land and sea routes by which Hezbollah can be resupplied by Iran and Syria. Hence the bombings of the Beirut International Airport and all the highways leading to Syria plus the sea blockade by the Israeli Navy.

Second, the Israelis are trying to put pressure on the Lebanese government to take control of Southern Lebanon from Hezbollah and dismantle the state within a state that exists there.

Third, they are trying to re-establish their military deterrence against potential enemies by demonstrating that a violation of Israeli sovereignty will result in catastrophic consequences. The Qassam missiles fired from Gaza and the cross-border raid that killed two Israeli soldiers and led to the kidnapping of one seemed to many a sign that the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza did not result in security on the Gaza border. Similarly, having withdrawn unilaterally from Lebanon in 2000, Israel counted on its military deterrence to secure the Lebanese border.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/23/INGKDK21KN1.DTL

[Lerkfish]

93. thanks, so as I surmise, no humanitarian reasons involved, right/

dismantle a state within a state...

[bigtree]

95. these are what I understand to be their goals. good article.

This is the one that is puzzling:

'pressure on the Lebanese government'

How does degrading their capacity to defend themselves by destroying their infrastructure make them MORE able to effectively deal with the armed Hizbollah combatants?

Destroying innocent Lebanese lives to effect a 'military deterrence' is reprehensible. The notion of 'military deterrence' is nothing more than intimidation through the use of the military, It seems to have had the opposite effect, as in Iraq, by drawing the citizens closer to Hizbollah and Syria. I have seen the anecdotal evidence of this and I believe it will be more than apparent very quickly what a folly the 'military deterrence' strategy has been.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that they have 'degraded the capacity' of Hizbollah to any degree that would keep Israel from being attacked. At the least, the 300 plus innocent Lebanese killed haven't made any difference at all in the ability of Hizbollah to attack Israel.

All in all, the Israeli attack on Lebanon has, so far been a fiasco.

[melnjones]

99. Hezbollah's rockets vs. Israel's bombs...

Killing is killing, and I don't like it from either side. Regardless, the two methods being used do not compare, hence the frustration toward Israel. I have yet to understand how the hell Israel can be justified in killing 350+ people, with over 90% of them civilians, while almost half of the under 50 people killed by Hezbollah have been Israeli soldiers. Who has the more high-tech weaponry here, you know, the stuff that is supposed to be laser aimed and crap? Come on. If Israel was serious about both taking out Hezbollah AND avoiding civilian deaths they would have sent in ground troops after a couple of days. Fewer Lebanese civilian deaths that way, more Hezbollah deaths. It would put Israeli soldiers at more risk, yes, but it would be proof to the world of their motives. It's too late for this to do them much good now...the harm has been done. Now they're sending papers down telling people to flee, knowing full well they've already bombed the hell out of the infrastructure? And then they keep hitting the vehicles of the people they have told to flee? Give me a break.

[malaise]

19. And critical industries

like the milk factory, the bottle factory, the paper factory, the Proctor -Gamble warehouse. Lebanon is under siege and this is a violation of humanitarian law. These are war crimes against the Geneva Convention.

[SammyBlue]

22. What ABOUT HEZBOLLAH'S CRIMES???

Is it only a crime when an arab civilian dies, but not when an Israeli civilian dies????

[malaise]

24. Physician heal thyself

Take that advice from an athiest.

And the caps don't phase me
Edit add.

[SammyBlue]

25. The caps are there as exasperation

How can you, in one breath, blame Israel, and then say nothing about Hezbollah's crimes?

Have people become that anti-Israel that Hezbollah and Hamas get free passes when they target Israeli civilians?

[liberalhistorian]

55. More strawmen. We're not talking about

the actions of Hezbollah or Hamas here. We're talking about this particular action of Israel, and it's destruction of a country's civilian infrastructure and the creation of a horrendous humanitarian crisis in hundreds of thousands of Lebanese refugees who've done NOTHING to Israel. Last time I checked, I don't remember seeing anywhere near that kind of destruction in Israel or hundreds of thousands of Israeli refugees whose country has been destroyed and who've lost everything. But that doesn't matter, I guess, since they're not Israeli, and all Lebanese and Gaza civilians must pay for the actions of Hezbollah and Hamas. Got it.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crunchy Frog]

82. Are you accusing Liberalhistorian of being an anti-semite ma'am?

[malaise]

106. A picture says a thousand words

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/middle_east_beirut_destruction/html/1.stm
Sp.

[rman]

115. So you agree that both are crimes?

The civilian casualties caused by Israel are the predictable consequence of their actions. And Israel's kill ratio is in the order of 10 to 1.

If both are crimes, then who's comitting the bigger crime?

[leftchick]

120. and don't forget the dangerous furnture factory

:(

[acmejack]

13. Defending the indefensible

it must get wearying. I must commend you for your blind loyalty, most here can call a wrong a wrong no matter who commits it. You

[SammyBlue]

17. Not defending it, asking why Israel gets attacked by so many people

but when Hezbollah and Hamas do the same, Israel is still blamed by media members, world leaders, outspoke critics. I want to know when Israel is right you people's eyes!

[Lerkfish]

41. I'm a little confused

1. You are misinterpreting legitimate questioning of Israel's actions as witchhunting, and lashing out at people due to your own misinterpretations.
2. At the same time, you're concerned when we will think Isreal wil be "right" in our eyes.

confusing. You wish to label us all as immoral savages for not agreeing with the invasion of Lebanon, but then you're worried what we think?


Maybe the real question you need to ask yourself is this: If you feel everyone is against Israel, in this particular instance, is it possible they may actually have a legitimate point? Consider that.

[SammyBlue]

50. Point by point rebuttal

1: Questioning is one thing. What I see alot of is Israel blaming. . .not saying here at DU, but in alot of circle.

2: I just want to know when Israel will be justified in action.

3: The words "immoral savages" never came out of my lips, so don't put them in.

4: A legitimate point. Now, let me give you some of my background. Years ago I asked someone why Jews were targets for persecution throughout history (Crusades, Inquistion, expulsions, pogroms, Protocols, Holocaust). I was told "that should tell you something. Jews are a cancer if everyone hates them." I was 8 when that happened and I will never forget it. So, what you're asking me is basically the same thing. If alot of people are condeming, it must be justified. If alot of people are persecuting, maybe the common thing is Jews deserve it.

Part of the reason I support Israel 100% is because I can do there and not worry about being discriminated against for being Jewish.

[Lerkfish]

56. Blind loyalty in the decisions of men is never healthy

you support Israel 100%, ok, then why will you not answer my question:

WHY are they intentionally targeting infrastructure and non-military targets?

note this is QUESTIONING, which you claim is ok. I'm questioning you...can you or will you answer?

I'm sorry you feel you were raised feeling persecuted. That's not my fault. I cannot let your upbringing make me see what's happening and think its automatically ok, though, sorry. I am also a little irritated you are taking my question of maybe if everyone disagrees with you they might actually have a point, and equating that with historical jewish persecution.

and, I notice that allows you to not have to consider, even for one nanosecond, that Isreal just might be making incorrect policy decisions here.

[SammyBlue]

63. Infrastructure. . .that's the first rule of war.

Make it so your enemy cannot move. Roads, power lines, communications. We did it in most of our wars.

Non-military targets: Because Hezbollah isn't a military. They are a terrorist network. How do you combat them? Hezbollah could be in my apartment planning. Hamas could use a coffee shop to plan (too public, I know, but used as an example).

Now, I will ask you. . .what should Israel target in combatting Hezbollah's aggression towards Israel?

[Lerkfish]

70. Israel should target Hezbollah.

now was that hard?

but instead of fighting a terrorist group, they are instead invading an entire country with the intent of regime change.

sound familiar?

so, you're already at the point of "this is a war", right? and everything is okeydokey in war, including shelling refugees trying to run away from you, right?

okay, I think I understand your position now, thanks for answering my question.

[SammyBlue]

73. Israel did that with Operation Wrath of G-d in 1972

and the world screamed about a mistake israel made.

Read the book "One Day in September."

[Lerkfish]

75. ok, done with this conversation now..

eternal victimhood is a little wearying.

[LostinVA]

109. But they are harming innocent Lebanese -- that isn't war

It's the slaughter of innocents, the destruction of their property and infrastructure, it's destroying a fledging democracy before it's had the strength to fly...

[Lindacooks]

86. Criticism is NOT an attack.

No one and nothing on this earth is perfect. No, not even Israel. Simply letting them do whatever they want in disregard of the world's laws is the same as letting a child run out into the street. This, in the end, is going to hurt Israel more.

I mean, have the wars in the past made Israel safer? Have they reduced the number of groups out to destroy them?

[melnjones]

100. Hypothetical situation...

Let's say that Joe Blow, known as a criminal in the city of Blowstown, goes out and burns down a house in the next town, Doetown. One person is killed. It's tragic, Joe is on the loose, and the police department is trying to figure out how to get ahold of the dude. John Doe, mayor of Doetown, is so upset that Joe has done something bad yet again that he drops some bombs down and destroys the majority of Blowstown, with many deaths and injuries. Were people upset that Joe did what he did? Of course...but they weren't surprised. You expect criminal behavior from a criminal. However, you don't expect criminal behavior from someone like a mayor.

What Hezbollah does is wrong, but not shocking. You expect terrorist behavior from a terrorist group. You DON'T expect terrorist behavior from a sovereign nation. That's the problem.

[LostinVA]

111. Good analogy and point n/t

[H2O Man]

103. There comes a point

where defending the indefensible appears to require histrionics in order to deny the responsibility for the killing of innocents. That is indeed becoming weary.

[LostinVA]

110. And reading te posts from the handful of such posters is exhausting me

I may have to put them all on IGnore, just to read some decent discussions and debates on DU...

[AusGail]

15. Are you saying that Israel has done nothing wrong, that they are

merely defending themselves?

[SammyBlue]

20. History Lesson

1948 - 6 Arab nations declared war on and attacked Israel.
1958 - 4 Arab nations declared war on and attacked Israel.
1967 - 5 Arab nations declared war on and attacked Israel.
1972 - Terrorists kill 11 Israeli olympic athletes. World does nothing. Israel responds. Targets an innocent by mistake and the World scream bloody murder.
1973 - 4 Arab nations declared war on and attacked Israel.

Suicide bombers kill Israelis on school buses, markets, discos, plazas (you know, military and governmental areas) and the world stays silent. Israel launches an offensive due to them being attacked by HEzbollah rockets in Lebannon and ISRAEL IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When is Israel right?

[CuteNFuzzy]

27. History "lessons" (questionable facts aside)

Prove nothing right now

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

44. thought better of it...

I really don't have a right to tell people how to post, sorry.

[AusGail]

35. So what you are saying is that they are entitled to kill innocent people

[Lerkfish]

46. I believe that's a little simplistic

I think for a lot of people on both sides, they're in the revenge cycle. Once you're in the revenge cycle, proportionality no long has meaning.

[bigtree]

26. I saw these stories from Israel

the destruction of Lebanon, whose government and majority of citizens do not want war with Israel, is beyond comparison with the destruction and deaths in Israel. There just is more death and destruction in Lebanon. And, it wasn't done by rebels, militants, or any group that is out of the control of the Israeli government, unlike the actions of Hizbollah who don't appear to be under the control of Lebanon. The killings of Lebanese have been carried out by a military force whose government (Israel) claims to be outraged by civilian deaths. They should be outraged. No one should be lobbing rockets into Israel.

But, what about the Lebanese killings? They don't seem to affect the Hizbollah assaults at all. They don't seem to have ANYTHING to do with the rocket launches outside of some tit-for-tat vengance. The ones who are launching the rockets into Israel don't seem to be among the hundreds killed. Isn't this strategy wrong. Hasn't it been a mistake to bomb and kill Lebanese civilians? If not, then what is the strategy behind the killings? What results does Israel expect (do you expect), and, when will we see those results.

Obviously I don't think there is a reasonable plan behind the killings. I don't think there are any results that justify the killings. I can't imagine ANYTHING that justifies the bulk of the killings of Lebanese civilians, and I'm wondering when Israel is going to start treating the citizens of Lebanon as they would want to be treated.

I don't expect ANY of that from those who have been callous enough to hurl rockets indiscriminately into Israel. The Hizbollah militants who are doing this have NO justification for what they are doing, moral or otherwise. But I expect more from those who claim to be so concerned with the loss of innocent life.

[SammyBlue]

29. When Lebanon starts turning over Hezbollah.

That was the policy in the 1980s with Lebanon and Hamas, Lebanon and the PLO, Lebanon and Black September, Lebanon and the Al-Asqa Martyrs Brigade. These terrorists who kill Israelis go to Gaza, th West Bank and Lebanon. . .plan and execute their attacks on Israeli and the Palestinian authority and the Lebanese do nothing to turn them in.

So, how is Israel supposed to combat these people who want to destroy Israel? The world and interpol will do nothing, and have done nothing in the past.

[bigtree]

34. The innocent dead Lebanese didn't 'have' Hizbollah to turn over.

Their deaths haven't gotten Israel any closer to getting at the ones who are bombing them. That's clear by the continued attacks on Israel today. This strategy of killing hundreds of innocent Lebanese has failed to stop Hizbollah. The deaths of the innocent Lebanese will not avenge the innocent Israelis who were killed.

Do you really believe that the hundreds of Lebanese deserved to die because 'they' didn't turn someone they might identify as Hizbollah 'in'?

[liberalhistorian]

57. Unfortunately, that is, indeed, what too many of

the Israel-is-always-right crowd believe. They seem to somehow think that every single Lebanese has a hotline to Hezbollah and that they can all just pick up the phone and control it; that is utter horseshit. No more than an average Joe Israeli can pick up the phone and tell Olmert what to do.

[Lerkfish]

61. well, they're right about one thing: if they systematically bomb enough

Lebanese, eventually, they will have killed someone who could have led them to Hezbollah. Of course, that won't really help them much at that point, will it?

[cushla_machree]

89. i could ask you the same question

How are Palestinians supposed to combat these people who want to destroy and take over thier land?

[Pale Blue Dot]

28. Point by point.

It's a holocaust being committed by oppressive Israelis. The oppressed of old have become the oppressors! Quick, blame Israel!

No one in this thread has said anything like that. You're attacking a straw man.

Was this attack part of a larger one? Apparently it was. You know, when a bomb falls, it doesn't discriminate on who it kills.

True, but the larger issue is that this will do nothing to make Israel or anyone else safe. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1706632

on edit: Where are all the news stories of Hezbollah attacking Israel and killing Israeli civilians? Nary a peep is made. . .because to the world (as has been the case for 2000 years) and the media, Jewish blood is cheap and worthless.

Please feel free to post them. This is your board too.

Israel has lost the media war. The Right wing in the world hates Israel. . .and now, so does the left wing, who were the ones who fought to establish Israel in the first place..

Could that be because Israel has been taken over by the same kinds of neocon right-wingers that we have to deal with in this country?

[SammyBlue]

32. Last point I will address

When Benjamin Netinyahu becomes PM, I will agree.

However, Benjamin Netinyahu has a history with Arab terrorists as his brother was killed on the Israeli raid on Entebbe when Arabs hyjacked a plane and took it to Uganda to use the Jews on board as human shields. The world did nothing, Israel did and Netinyahu's brother was the only one killed.

So, I understand Netinyahu's view of Arab terrorists.

[liberalhistorian]

59. I understand it as well, but that doesn't give him the

right to lead his country on the road to ruin by going after all Arab civilians, which is what he wants to do.

[LostinVA]

112. The Right Wing is this country LOVES anything Israel does

[Lindacooks]

80. "..when a bomb falls, it doesn't discriminate on who it kills."

You just answered yourself. Yes, blame Israel, for the bombs it is dropping. And yes, blame Hezbollah for the rockets they are firing.

And if you watched the news, you would see that the coverage is HEAVILY biased towards Israel. CNN is constantly interviewing journalists in Israel as they stand by the small hole the rockets have made, while showing pictures of block upon block upon block destroyed by the BOMBS Israel is dropping are very rarely seen.

[The Gunslinger]

96. Yea. It's the bomb's fault...........

not the people who dropped it!!


"Israel has lost the media war"

What???? Turn on the MSM, or the FOX propaganda network. You'll get all the support you need there.

[cushla_machree]

98. this is a nice whine

Well, what has Israel ever done that is 'right' for the Palestinians?

Get real, this isn't about Israel being 'jewish.' This is about their policies. Find me something positive in the attempted removal of a people from their land, a continued occupation of the area of Palestine, walling them off, diverting their water, bulldozing their homes, etc etc.

Often times when a country is, oh, occupying another and subjecting the people to routine asbuse and horrors, sometimes it overshadows all the 'right' things they do. Qibya, Sabra and Shatila, Jenin - what is happening on an everyday basis in gaza and the west bank.

Does this excuse the behavior of suicide bombers? Absolutely not. But take into focus the idea that Israel has a state of the art military, whereas those people have nothing but rocks and home made bombs. The position of those organizations killing innocent civilians verus millitary targets does make it harder to understand their actions, and unfortunately hurts them more than it advances any cause they may endorse.

Take the blinders off your eyes and look at the big picture. But you can't. Because this is all an attack on 'jews.' People who go around life eternally vitimized often have no one else to blame but themselves. We learn lessons from our past, we never forget it, but we don't use it as a crutch to never own up to our own behavior.

I don't support one place over another, but I will say that I do not identify with a nation that mandates the primacy of one ethnicity or religion over all others. Nor do I believe any nation has a right to exist more than any other.

[Henny Penny]

119. If the cap fits...

"The Israeli military has also said that it would destory 10 buildings in south Beirut, a pro- Hezbollah area, for every rocket fired at the Israeli port of Haifa, army radio said Monday.

"Army chief of staff Dan Halutz has given the order to the air force to destroy 10 multi-storey buildings in the Dahaya district (of Beirut) in response to every rocket fired on Haifa," a senior air force officer told the station.

Israeli helicopters also have fired at least five missiles into the Palestinian al-Rashidiya refugee camp in southern Lebanon on Monday morning."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E40F9A6C-FDA9-44D0-BBC1-76029DF8D6EC.htm

[malaise]

5. Only their lives count

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: I will never forgive them for this. NEVER

Then I watched this grinning smug arrogant war criminal heading to the ME. I'm against violence, but I could bang her head against a wall righ tnow.

[SammyBlue]

6. Will you forgive Hezbollah next time they use a suicide bomber

on a school bus? Or do "only their lives count."

[bigtree]

8. Address the original post Sammy Blue

Don't come on this thread and start fights.

[malaise]

9. Look

in the same way I will never forgive Hitler for what he did to the European Jews, I will never forgive the Israeli Zionists and complicit Americans and Europeans for what is being done to the Lebanese as I type. You can defend this slaughter all you want - I will have no part of it.

[liberalhistorian]

62. Please do what you're being asked and address

the original post without bringing strawmen into it. And yes, I think we all strongly condemn suicide bombers of any stripe, just as we condemn the loss of innocent lives in Lebanon.

[Minstrel Boy]

78. How about you direct me to the link

of Hezbollah using a suicide bomber on a school bus. I've looked, I can't find one. That sounds more like the style of Hamas or the al Aqsa Brigades.

[Ms. Clio]

104. oh, they're all the same

"Arabs/Muslims/Hizbollah/Hamas."

Everywhere on the planet.

And if all 1 billion Muslims don't condemn Hizbollah, why then, they are all complicit.

Didn't you know?

[kurth]

16. White House response: "Shit happens"

[CuteNFuzzy]

18. It's a common sentiment

not isolated to just the WH

[SammyBlue]

23. White House's normal response: Where's My Pet Goat.

Josh Bolten, get my a beer. . .let's watch this here action flick on Fox News. The critics like Brit Hume are giving it two thumbs up!!!!

[Clarkie1]

37. 2 more innocent Israelis killed. Why? nt

[bigtree]

40. Isn't that a clever evasion? Hizbollah kills without conscience

They are lobbing rockets indiscriminately into Israel.

Israel, on the other hand, deliberately targeted this minivan. I would like to know what strategy they are employing that caused this to happen. If it is a defensible strategy then explain to me what is the desired effect of destroying such a civilian target?

[Clarkie1]

42. Israel is targeting to avoid the loss of civilian life.

Hezbollah, on the other hand, doesn't care who is killed by their rockets.

It's a major moral difference.

[bigtree]

47. Has that 'targeting' been correct, in your opinion?

The hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians killed don't seem to have had any effect on the violence from Hizbollah directed toward Israel.

[Clarkie1]

52. Most of the targeting I believe has been accurate, yes.

The are in the middle of a campaign to seriously diminish the capabilities of the Hezbollah militia. Really, they have no other choice. They have been attacked. A country cannot allow a militia to gather tens of thousands of missiles along their border and not respond to a provocation. Surely you did not expect Israel to not try and destroy or at least cripple the militia after being attacked?

Unfortunately, the Lebanese government was either unable or unwilling to disarm Hezbollah. The U.S. should have aided Lebanon before this to fulfill the requirements of U.N. resolution 1559, calling for the disarming of the militias. Now Israel is doing what any country in the world would do if they were attacked, and exhibiting more restraint than many would under similar circumstances.

Have a good day.

[bigtree]

60. So, the innocents killed in the residential areas were killed 'correctly'?

those reprisals were 'accurate'?

The Lebanese government doesn't 'have' Hizbollah. That's why there are efforts underway to work out an agreement to bolster the Lebanese forces so that they can be more effective in disarming and controlling Hizbollah. Everyone acknowledges they aren't up to the task.

That still doesn't explain why the innocent Lebanese had to be killed. Either the airstrikes hit their target or missed. If the innocent Lebanese who were killed in the apartment buildings and on the roads as they fled were deliberately targeted, then what was the goal? Was it vengance? Was it intimidation? Has it worked?

[Clarkie1]

64. I do not believe it likely civilians were deliberately targeted.

In war, even with the utmost care sometimes tragic mistakes happen.

Gotta go, have a good day.

[bigtree]

79. 300 plus 'tragic mistakes' in less than a week

without any visible lessening of the threat to Israel shows a flawed strategy

[Clarkie1]

81. It shows Hezbollah likes firing their missiles from civilian neighborhoods

They have been condemned by the U.N for doing so.

Honestly, Hezbollah places far, far less value on human life than Israel.

[bigtree]

87. The Israelis MUST know that the ones firing the rockets exit the scene

right after they fire. Everyone knows this.

Is it retaliation? Revenge? Intimidation? Are they trying to influence the actions of the civilians with the bombings?

The Israelis must know, as we all do, that the combatants leave these civilian areas after they fire. Do you support the policy of firing into these civilian areas? I think it's against international law to deliberately fire into areas where civilians are known to reside.

At any rate, the hundreds of killings don't seem to have stopped the rockets flying into Israel. Weren't these airstrikes into civilian areas which resulted in over 300 Lebanese dead in a week a mistake? If not, what did they accomplish, in your view?

[CuteNFuzzy]

105. They know

[liberalhistorian]

66. Unbelievable. While I agree that Hezbollah has no

conscience in firing their rockets, I strongly disagree that there's a "major moral difference" between them and Israel. Israel has damn near destroyed an entire country, including its civilian and economic infrastructure, killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians, wounded hundreds more, created a horrendous humanitarian crisis in over 600,000 Lebanese refugees who've lost everything, and counting, etc., etc. They most certainly HAVE targeted and pounded civilian areas, PLEASE do NOT try to pull this "Israel is more moral" bullshit on us. Right now, their actions are no better than Hezbollah or Hamas.

[Clarkie1]

68. Strongly disagree.

Israel simply wants to live in peace.

If Hezbollah and Hamas would stop their terrorist actions, their would be peace. Peace is up to them.

[blonndee]

69. That's right. And there is absolutely no evidence

that either side is attempting to minimize civilian casualities, unless you count those "leaflets" that essentially urge people to flee at the risk of being bombed on their way out, or being trapped at bombed-out bridges and roads. Saying that Israel doesn't target civilians doesn't make it so. Clearly, actions speak louder than words.

[Ms. Clio]

72. the U.S. doesn't "target" Iraqis, either

But somehow well over 100,000+ are now dead merely due to "tragic mistakes."

Oops.

[blonndee]

74. Yeah. Whoops, our bad.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

113. The difference, right now, is that Israel has uniforms, a flag, a UN seat

And the backing of that jackass in the White House and his little Freeper friends. At this point, everyone in this fight are acting like a bunch of murderous thugs.

[melnjones]

101. They haven't done a good job of it...

They are using our weapons and technology...if we were to have that bad of aim in such a short time period AND kill/injure so few of the real "enemy," the world would be pretty pissed at us too.

[SammyBlue]

43. Then, by your logic, indiscriminately lobbing rockets into Israel

can be justified. Deliberately targetting random Israelis with rockets is justified.

That is a very slippery slope. One I have tried to point out in many posts over a VERY long period of time.

[Clarkie1]

48. The double-standard of some people on this issue is incredible.

And it seems most are blind to it.

[bigtree]

53. I never said that. I have NEVER expressed support for Hizbollah or actions

Just saying I support Hizbollah or their actions doesn't make it so. Quit the deception.

[bigtree]

49. I never said that. I have said the opposite, several times.

You can't justify Israel's actions by painting me as somehow pro-Hizbollah. It's just not true. It is a lie to say that I have expressed anything but distain for the actions of Hizbollah.

Once again, you have used that false presumption to dodge my questions.

[SammyBlue]

65. No, I am asking for clarification, sir. This is called debating, a skill

that has being lost in modern America.

That's why I said: "By your logic," waiting for you to clarify.

Now that you have clarified, I can move on to another point.

[LostinVA]

114. That's NOT what the poster said at all

[TX-RAT]

122. deliberately targeted this minivan.

This is twice you've said that, do you have any proof it was deliberately targeted?
Didn't Israel drop leaflets several times telling the Lebanese civilians to get out, didn't they specifically say not to use buses to do it?. Didn't they arrange to call all the lebanese on phone and warn them also? Didn't they broad cast it on TV?


What has Hizbollah done to keep Israeli civilian deaths to a minimum, other than specifically target them?

[bigtree]

123. I regard an airstrike using what THEY describe as pinpoint strikes

with precision guided missiles as 'targeting.'

Hizbollah has no regard for innocent lives either. If you bother to read upwards you will find a post entitled Hizbollah from me in which I am very clear about my disgust with their actions also. However, Hizbollah's rockets are designed to hit and destroy indiscriminately. That is despicable.

So, stick to the point of my post. Why aren't these 'pinpoint' strikes by Israel considered targeting?

[Ms. Clio]

54. they will defend the indefensible forever

just the way Bushbots and the Iraq war supporters do.

[treestar]

85. gee what could they do, there might have been terrorists

on that bus. Doesn't poor Israel have a right to defend itself?

:sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm::sarcasm:

[blonndee]

88. Guardian story: Blasted by a missile on the road to safety

Blasted by a missile on the road to safety

Family ordered to flee were targeted because they were driving minivan

Suzanne Goldenberg in Kafra, Lebanon
Monday July 24, 2006
The Guardian

The ambulanceman gave Ali the job of keeping his mother alive. The 12-year-old did what he could. "Mama, mama, don't go to sleep," he sobbed, gently patting her face beneath her chin. Behind her black veil, her eyelids were slowly sinking. "I'm going to die," she sighed. "Don't say that, mama," Ali begged, and then slid to the ground in tears.

On the pavement around mother and son were the other members of the Sha'ita family, their faces spattered with each other's blood. All were in varying shades of shock and injury. A tourniquet was tied on Ali's mother's arm. A few metres away, his aunt lay motionless, the white T-shirt beneath her abaya stained red. Two sisters hugged each other and wept, oblivious to the medics tending their wounds. "Let them take me, let them take me," one screamed.

Their mother was placed on a stretcher, and lifted into the ambulance. "God is with you, mama," Ali said. She reached up with her good arm to caress his face.

The Sha'itas had thought they were on the road to safety when they set out yesterday, leaving behind a village which because of an accident of geography - it is five miles from the Israeli border - had seemed to make their home a killing ground. They had been ordered to evacuate by the Israelis.

full story at http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

[bigtree]

91. thanks for this

the Israelis need to explain what strategy they are employing which allows this and to what end

[blonndee]

92. More on this: Red Cross ambulances, cars, motorcycles targeted too

"But Israel's offensive is being felt across a much wider swath of south Lebanon. The Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre said 10 cars carrying civilians and three or four motorcycles had been hit by Israeli missiles yesterday. Red Cross ambulances were no safer; a spokesman said an ambulance had narrowly escaped a missile near the village of el-Qlaile, south of the city. A number of the dead, including the three members of the Sha'ita family, remained trapped in their cars because it was too dangerous to retrieve their bodies.

In Tyre, south Lebanon's main town and a stopping point on the flight to the north, the hospital received a steady flow of injured. By late afternoon there were three dead and 41 injured, two critically."They are bombing them all in their cars," said Ahmed Mrowe, the director of Jabal al-Amal hospital.

Those who choose not to flee - the UN estimates that 35%-40% of villagers are too poor or too frail to make the journey - are being left stranded.

That was the predicament facing the Sha'itas when Musbah Sha'ita urged them to flee. In a car on the way to the hospital, his ear was welded to his phone, trying to find out where his wounded relatives were, and he could not stop blaming himself.

"We put a white flag. We were doing what Israel told us to do," he says. "What more do they want of us?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1827422,00.html

[Lerkfish]

94. "We were doing what Israel told us to do"

well, that's even more disturbing. Is Isreal intentionally drawing out civilians to slaughter them? I hope not.

[bigtree]

97. *sigh*

I want to understand why good people still support Israel's strategy in this. It's such an obvious failure . . . and the innocents slaughtered in the way of Israel's reprisals . . .

edit: and, we need to discuss this without getting accused of being anti-Israel. I am pro-people, I am anti-violence.

[Binka]

107. Maybe Just Maybe The People Supporting This Have Forsaken Their Goodness?

Just sayin.

[LostinVA]

116. At least you're getting some decent non-filtered European news

Hey, guess what? I just committed myself to running a 50k in February.

I'm insane...

[Binka]

117. Hooray For You!

I'm doing the aqua jog thing. It is too hot to run. Hey my 22 year old daughter and my 20 year old son are coming to see me in two weeks! I will post pix!:hi:

[LostinVA]

118. I've aqua jogged when my ankle was messed up

I'd liek to see the photos.

[bigtree]

121. It must be a horrible realization that the government you so believe in

is capable of such wanton destruction. All of these issues require core beliefs which can't be corrupted by politics or alliegances. I am pro-people and anti-violence. Those values take precedence over all other interests.

[tnlefty]

102. Kill'em all, let God sort it out!

There is no longer a reason for any sort of peaceful conflict resolution. Not today, not yesterday, not tomorrow, not ever!

Anything and everything can and will be justified.