Neighbor's offensive sign targets autistic teen

[PA Democrat]

Carrie Heaton does her best to keep watch over her curious and cognitively disabled 13-year-old son without being too confining.

Still, the Nephi teen slips out unnoticed on occasion and wanders the neighborhood, sometimes entering and rifling through people's homes, according to police. Neighbors to the south have complained.

But Heaton was surprised Wednesday when long-simmering tensions boiled over and her neighbors erected a sign in their front yard warning, "CAUTION, RETARD'S IN AREA."

Diagnosed with autism and other disabilities, Heaton's son functions at the level of a 4- or 5-year-old and doesn't "understand what's going on," Heaton said Friday. "He can't read the sign. But everyone else can. This not only affects him, but all the special needs people who live in Nephi, Juab County and Utah."


http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_4082374

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. Well the sign is correct

whomever wrote it is probably nearby. And a "retard."

[etherealtruth]

7. That thought is accurate...

It's the first thing that came to my mind.

What the heck is wrong with people?

[neebob]

27. Good one, Grannie! nt

[mom cat]

55. You beat me to it!

[Warren DeMontague]

75. TG nails it on the first post.

Sign is self-explanatory.

[lukasahero]

94. Not to mention

they (plural) would be retards - not retard's (possessive). Idiots (or should that be idiot's?)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

102. Probably a hugh moran. I'm series!!!!!!1!!!

[Dervill Crow]

118. It could be a contraction of "retard is" in area.

But I seriesly doubt it.

[lukasahero]

153. LOL

I suppose. ;)

[wicket]

115. Amen Grannie!

:yourock:

[alcibiades_mystery]

126. WHOever wrote it

Just sayin'...

[Canuckistanian]

185. You got it!

Although it's amazing they even spelled it correctly.

[darkmaestro019]

200. Can I just say that I adore you?

I may have said so at least once before. I hope so. You make me happy : )

[ComerPerro]

202. Was thinking the same thing

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. The struggle for equal access for people with developmental disabilities

is the last frontier of the civil rights stuggle.

... oh, and retardation is defined as a cognitive deficit, much like the one that manifests itself in spelling plural words with an apostrophe.

Asshole's.

[Turbineguy]

39. Very droll

(OK all you French majors, is that with 1 "l" or 2?)

[Bjornsdotter]

58. Drôle n/t

[badgerpup]

43. *wonders if signmaker is a relative of Moran Man...*

Glass house, baby...BIG honkin' stones.
:eyes:

[uppityperson]

49. apostrophe misplaced was my 1st thought, but maybe they meant

"is in" area. Probably mispelled but could be this. I hate this sort of shit.

[bloom]

3. wow - that is so obnoxious

I had a person come into my home and start rummaging through the kitchen - the neighbor's foster child.

I just locked the doors so it couldn't happen again. :shrug:


Since "Freedom of Speech" probably allows such things - I would be inclined to go over there with a can of spray paint - and spray over it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. You're too nice.

I'd go over there with my chainsaw and saw the fucker down.

And that's not hyperbole.

[iconoclastic cat]

45. Yeah, well, you're a lumberjack, and you're okay!....nt

[sgxnk]

90. nice

to see some people's commitment to the 1st amendment ends at mere offense

committing vandalism because you don't agree with somebody exercising of free speech


no commitment to democratic principles i see

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. yeah, well tell me how you feel when you're a parent of an autistic child

RRrrrrrrrr.

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/c/chainsaw.jpg

When it comes to my child, the sign-owners right of free speech comes with a complementary helping of free ass kicking.

I'd saw it down and take my licks in court.

[Lochloosa]

157. I'll oil the chain for you LJ....

[Canuckistanian]

186. I'm a parent of an autistic child, too

And as far as I'm concerned, ass-kicking is protected speech, in this case.

[tavalon]

230. I have an autistic child

And I would have immediately assumed the people were talking about themselves. Especially since my child is in no way, shape or form "retarded", he is severely emotionally disabled but smart as a whip. Not so the morans who placed this sign.

[madeline_con]

188. It's as bad as a racial slur.

It's a despicable form of discrimination.


eedited fer speeling

[sgxnk]

89. probably?

i would think freedom of speech DEFINITELY allows such things.

the 1st is all about protecting offensive speech

see: voltaire

[EstimatedProphet]

92. Maybe, maybe not

'Retard' is a slur after all, and slurs are designed to incite emotions. The first amendment is about protecting unpopular speech, not speech designed to hurt or damage character-or else why would slander be illegal?

[sgxnk]

96. slander

slander is not "illegal"

it is CIVILLY ACTIONABLE (huge difference) when

1) it is a LIE
2) the person knows/should know it is a lie

this is CLEARLY not slander

and inciting emotion is LEGAL

this is CLEARLY not slander

if u disagree with this, i suggest you contact an attorney who specializes in these sorts of cases

i respect the 1st amendment.

i really suggest a primer in constitutional law for you

[EstimatedProphet]

99. Oops. You found me out

I'm not a constitutional attorney.

I do, however, know when to capatalize an 'i'.

[sgxnk]

103. fair enough

i actually worked a case (as a cop) that was very similar.

clearly not illegal

guy gets his car broken into

for relatively flimsy reasons, he suspects a neighbor kid

so, he goes around the neighborhood and passes out fliers claiming this kid is a thief, a thug, a gangbanger, etc.

CLEARLY not illegal

*arguably* slander.

*if* the guys' evidence was strong enough that the guy was a thief, it would not be slander. that was the issue in question

the kids dad complained to the cops, and we told him - sorry, civil matter

[tenshi816]

117. Well, since you're splitting hairs about

something this reprehensible, it's not "slander" when it's written, it's "libel".

And either way, it sucks.

[sgxnk]

135. that is true

i don't think it's "splitting hairs" to defend the 1st amendment

:l

[Ken Burch]

223. You aren't really saying that the 1st Amendment means these assholes

should get away with this. I mean, I think Jefferson himself would be over with a chainsaw if it was his kid the neighbors did a sign like that about.

What would you do? Just let it ride?

[EstimatedProphet]

221. My point is that it doesn't matter whether this is in the 1st amendment

Civil or not, slander/libel is still not something people can do with impunity. It doesn't matter what the 1st amendment says about freedom of speech if this is shown to be an attack on someone's character. To say that since it's a civil action it's legal because of the 1st amendment is like saying that speeding is protected under the right to peaceably assemble.

[fudge stripe cookays]

128. Wow.

219 posts, and you still haven't had time to create a profile.

"By their fruits shall ye know them" and all that.

[blonndee]

137. LOL and by their posts, as well. nt

[EstimatedProphet]

222. My thoughts exactly

[Horse with no Name]

138. Arguably it would meet the definition of a "hate crime"

The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797). In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act added disabilities to the above list.

In the last decade of the 20th century, legislation in many U.S. states has established harsher penalties for a number of crimes when they are also considered hate crimes; interestingly, however, very few of these statutes make it more likely for a murder to trigger the death penalty when it is found to have also been a hate crime. While some claim that these hate crimes laws exist because women and certain minorities have been victims and require special protection, others say that they exist because crimes motivated by hate deserve a harsher punishment. California Penal Code section 422.6 offers a wider interpretation of hate crime, defining it as those acts "committed because of the victim's actual or perceived race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender, or sexual orientation. The actions considered criminal are using force or threat of force to willfully injure, intimidate, interfere with, oppress, or threaten any other person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him or her by the Constitution or laws of the State or country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime

[sgxnk]

141. sorry, but no

a "hate crime" must have an underlying criminal act

hate crimes are crimes that are ALREADY criminal, with an enhanced penalty for certain kinds of animus (gender, race, etc.)

free speech is not a "
hate crime

it is in many countries that have hate SPEECH laws

the US does not. unlike canada, germany, france, the UK, etc. we do not criminalize hate SPEECH

asetting aside the questionable argument as to whether referring to somebody who is mentally challenged as a 'retard" *is* hate speech

a hate CRIME would be if a person committed a crime against a person with disabilities BASED on that person's disability

i've investigated a # of these

referring to somebody as a "retard" is NOT a hate crime

that would be orwellian, unconstitutional and absurd

[Horse with no Name]

143. Wonder what you don't understand?

"The actions considered criminal are using force or threat of force to willfully injure, intimidate, interfere with, oppress, or threaten any other person in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him or her by the Constitution or laws of the State or country."

You seem *very* familiar. We had "another" member of law enforcement here last year, believe he was from the South. However, he is enjoying pizzas somewhere...no doubt interpreting laws "again" to fit his agenda.:)

[sgxnk]

144. sorry

i have been a cop for many years

referring to somebody as a 'retard" in a sign does not qualify under the legal definition of intimidation

this is the problem with laypeople interpreting statutes without training or experience

hanging the guy in effigy would be "intimidation"

referring to him as a retard is not "intimidation" under the law.

if you don't believe me, contact ANY deputy prosecutor

again, ihave investigated these types of crimes before. many times. i know the law

we have this pesky thing called the 1st amendment. referring to an individual as a "retard" is not intimidate

furthermore, again -READ THE STATUTE. please explain how the person was intimidate with IN THE FREE EXERCISE OR ENJOYMENT of any consitutional right

again, i will appeal to authority. ask ANY deputy prosecutor.

[Horse with no Name]

147. Why bother asking a deputy prosecutor?

Chances are many of the "investigating officers" determine on their own with their *expansive knowledge* of the law and it never gets that far because of their all knowing and all seeing expertise.
This is a slur. It was intended to intimidate.
Hanging the guy in effigy is assault. Pure and simple. Not intimidation. You might need to hit the legal dictionary again, pal.

[sgxnk]

149. look

it never ceases to amaze me how people's fealty to the 1st amendment, our MOST important right, flies out the window with the slightest controversy

this is NOT a hate crime

i am asking you to speak to a deputy prosecutor because they could explain it more eloquently

hanging somebody in effigy is NOT assault depending on WHAT FRIGGING JURISDICTION you are in

again, you do NOT understand the law

i suggest you review some of the materials at the Southern Poverty Law Center for information on hate crimes

much of what stormfront, neonazis, and many other groups do is CLEARLY hate speech. but it is NOT a crime

if you want to see where the "line" is between free speech and intimidation google the case law for "nuremberg files"

that case is the best example of case that tested the border between speech and intimidation.

the ACLU defends FAR more "hateful" speech than calling somebody a retard. ever heard of fred phelps? this shit is HATEFUL as hell. but it is NOT illegal (in the US)

respect our constitution

[lumberjack_jeff]

176. Saying something that would provoke a reasonable person

To violence is not protected speech.

If the sign were left on my neighbors tree, I guarantee that the cops would be needed to sort out the blowback. Better that they deal with the sign.

[sgxnk]

197. no

the cops (and i have been one for years) have a duty to the constitution

like i said, i have DEALT with actual hate crimes

i have also dealt with stuff like this, that would be referred to as "neighbor complaints"

i gave a specific example of an incident between two neighbors of a similar nature

i referred the complainant to CIVIL court. if the neighbor of the kid in this case wants to sue, he can. i strongly doubt he would be successful. but that is the avenue of redress

this is america. free speech matters. prior restraint is not ok

the 1st amendment means that we must accept that we will hear things that offend us

that's part of freedom

voltaire said it best "i may disagree with what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it" (i'm paraphrasing from memory)

and no reasonable person would be provoked to violence because a neighbor put a sign in their own yard referring to a developmentally challenged child as a "retard". it is a boorish behavior

it is not a CRIMINAL behavior. there is a difference

try reading the constitution. mouth out the words if you are having difficulty understanding the meaning

hth

[lumberjack_jeff]

201. If you would stand idly by while antagonists

make comments intended to intimidate and provoke violence, then you're a poor cop. Every officer I know would intervene before blows were exchanged.

"Yes, your honor. On the afternoon in question, the victim called the defendant a stream of epiphets followed by rude hand gestures and ethnic insults. Since this is all protected, constitutional speech, I observed with detached curiosity. No one could have predicted that the defendant would react violently."

It's more than boorish, it's meant to ostracize and bully the powerless. I expect my cops to protect the powerless. Failing that, it's chainsaw time for dad.

Being wholly ignorant on the topic of developmental disabilities, you don't understand how hurtful that term is. An african-american who is called the "n" word usually has some ability to defend themselves. The developmentally disabled do not. Since cop training obviously doesn't educate you that this kind of abuse is analagous to racist hate speech, it's up to the parents to either educate, or failing that, to do their own 'serving and protecting'.

[sgxnk]

206. first of all

as a cop who has received numerous commendations, and never had any internal affairs complaint, i stand by my record

second of all, you are begging the question. the idea that the sign "intimidate and provokes" violence is NOT proven. you are assuming that which is in question, and that which i disagree with this

you have NO idea about my ignorance, or sagacity vis a vis developmental disabilities

yes, the term is hurtful

it doesn't follow that it is ILLEGAL

why do u have such difficulty understanding that sometimes BAD behavior is legal behavior?

there is also significant case law distinction between statements made in close proximity to a subject, and statements made textually and/or with detachment

the constitution matters. so does case law

having a sign on your front yard that says "beware of retard" or whatever, (and considering the past chain of occurances especially) is NOT criminal

i don't care what officers you know would do. i care about the constitution. you, apparently, do not

there is an avenue of redress here. CIVIL court. if and when a judge issues an order for the sign to be removed, it would be removed. up and until then, i respect people's constitutional rights

the sign is on HIS property. it clearly is not a violation of any RCW. you live in seattle. so do i. i know the RCW and I enforce it. this would NOT be a law violation

i will make this point again, because you are missing it

i STRONGLY disagree with the posting of the sign. i think it is BAD behavior. it is not CRIMINAL behavior

i will also explain to you that "hate speech" is NOT a crime in the USA (it is in canada, the UK, Germany, France, etc.). not that i concede that this *is* hate speech, but it is NOT illegal

Hate Speech is constitutionally protected speech

if you have difficulty understanding this, then jaunt over to the Southern Poverty Law Center's website. they reference numerous groups that use hate speech on a daily basis in the USA. those acts are legal.

[uppityperson]

211. update, police removed the sign

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/07/25/news/regional/003a79f928c969d5872571b400211865.txt

[sgxnk]

213. update: article inconsistent and vague as to who removed it

nowhere in the TEXT of the article does it claim police remove the sign. however, the TITLE does

hmmm...

there is no quote from any police source, or prosecutor stating POLICE removed the sign

it just says the sign was removed, and uses the passive voice, which conveniently leaves the subject - WHO removed it - unanswered

either this is an exceptionally poorly written article with key facts left out *or* the title is misleading or even false

*who* removed the sign? was it the police? i'd like to see some quote from some police spokesman stating that's the case. the article leaves this to the imagination

[uppityperson]

214. might be more productive to write/call them directly than post here

thought you might be interested in the update so posted it to you.

[sgxnk]

215. i appreciate it

thx for the update. i just wanted to throw out a caveat. i read the article twice looking for some sort of idea as to who removed it

regardless, i think it's a good thing it's gone

but i'd be surprised if the police forcefully removed it (iow, w.o owner's permission) based on my understanding of the case facts, and assuming no judge had issued an order

thanks again

[sgxnk]

151. btw.

i did some of the legwork for you

this is some of the caselaw from the case i referred you to.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=9th&navby=case&no=9935320&exact=1

and again, in the US we respect free speech. in many countries, for instance, it is ILLEGAL to deny the holocaust happened. not true in the USA

that falls under "hate speech" laws in many countries

http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/nurember.htm

http://www.mediainstitute.org/ONLINE/FAM2003/2-g.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. How do you feel about the freedom of speech...

... to burn crosses?

Calling a person with developmental disabilities a retard is not freedom of speech, it is assault intended to terrorize.

[sgxnk]

152. complete

utter orwellian doublespeak

"assault intended to terrorize"

the founding fathers are rolling over in their graves

referring to a disabled child as a 'retard' is assault intended to terrorize. LOL

i really would love to see you argue that in court.

you would be laughed out and forced to take a course in civics

[lumberjack_jeff]

174. Thanks for making yourself the new local expert

If we ever need to know why it's okay to call a disabled person a retard, we'll be sure to ask you.

Thanks for your monosyllabic defense of hate speech.

BTW, "I" is still supposed to be capitalized.

[sgxnk]

196. nice strawman

i didn't say it was "ok"

i said it was CONSTITUTIONAL

only a fascist would fail to understand the difference

lots of things that are BAD are constitutional

being a jerk is not "ok"

it is CERTAINLY constitutional

apparently, you and many others, would sacrifice fundamental constitutional rights in order not to hear words that make you feel angry

[semillama]

210. Hey sgxnk

if no one has said it yet, welcome to DU. and I agree 100% with what you are actually saying, regardless of how your debate opponent tries to spin your argument. Nice to see a dignified but firm response to an ad hominem attack.


The sign is horrible. but it's within that persons rights to be an asshole. Hopefully, he'll be the neighborhood pariah as well.

But if the parent of the child were to assault the sign maker, well, the parent would rightfully be booked for that. That's a crime. What the parent should do is to approach the neighbor and confront them forcibly but calmly about why they would put up such a sign. Shame works better than fists in confronting neighborhood idiots.

[sgxnk]

198. also, btw - seattle

i live in the seattle area and am very familiar with RCW.

[liberalhistorian]

4. How appropriate the sign is, since the "retards"

(what a childish term that I didn't think anyone with even a functioning brain cell used anymore) are those who put up the sign!

And as the mother of a teenage son with Aperger's Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism, I've dealt with this kind of shit for a long time. Never mind that my son has a near-genius-level IQ. I get tired of dealing with the ignorance of too many in society, to the point where I don't give a shit anymore and I've told my son not to take it personally anymore. Anyone who has a problem with him because of his disability, or me because of my learning disability and hearing problem, can go fuck themselves, because it't THEIR problem!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. My doctor works with a lot of autistic kids

including one with Aperger's Syndrome. He's now socializing, looking people in the eye and starting conversations, doing much better in school, etc, etc. Hope something like that can happen with your son.

[MrBenchley]

29. The apostrophe is a nice touch...

demonstrating that the sign maker is unable to use grammar correctly...

Surprised he didn't add that there were "morans" too....

[PA Democrat]

44. When my daughter who has autism was younger,

she loved the Rugrats. One day she was in the grocery store with my husband and she saw a TV Guide that had a picture of the Rugrats on the cover and asked her dad to buy it for her. She carried it with her everywhere for the next several days.

About 3 days after she got the magazine, my doorbell rang. It was one of my neighbor's kids saying, "I wanted to let you know that your daughter stole our TV Guide."

I asked him a bunch of questions since I highly doubted this, and found that their TV Guide had been missing since earlier that same day. I knew my daughter hadn't been out of my sight for a single second all day, and I told him that. But he had seen her in our fenced-in back yard under my supervision with the same TV Guide. I asked when he had seen her in their house, and he said that no one saw her but they assumed she had sneaked in the back door.

They found their stinking lousy TV Guide under a couch cushion in their own house, and never came back to apologize.

The irony is, that this is a very large fundy family, and the mother is notorious in the neighborhood for letting her kids run the neighborhood unsupervised as soon as they can walk. See, she prays all day and figures that God will do her job of watching out for her kids for her. We called her kids "raised by wolves", and it was only the watchful eye of neighbors that kept those kids safe.

Moral of the story: Some people are assholes when it comes to dealing with kids with disabilities.

[bleedingheart]

97. I have to agree with you...

my son has Asperger's as well.

He has gotten better over time with therapy (in fact I am waiting for the therapist now)...
The lack of compassion in the world is amazing.

[EFerrari]

100. Right on, liberalhistorian.

:toast: from our Aspie home to you guys.

[EstimatedProphet]

105. I admit I use that word

I think it's very appropriate to describe conservatives and fundamentalists.

[NC_Nurse]

6. Wow, such compassion...

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

203. Who Would Jesus Bully?

[DanCa]

8. Do you excpect anything else from cons?

They are as ignorant as they are evil.

[niyad]

19. hmmm, perhaps you mean expect? they are, however, not to be

considered members of civilized and compassionate society.

[DanCa]

24. Sorry about the spelling - my disability got in the way.

Yep people who pick on disabled people are lower than snake spit.

[sgxnk]

91. where

is the (obnoxious) sign poster identified as a 'con'

for all i know he is an anarchist, a trostkyist, etc.

why do u make this assumption?

[blonndee]

106. It's a good assumption. Here's some info on Nephi:

(Besides the obvious, that is.)

Nephi, UT

Presidential politics: Nephi is in Juab County, which supported George W. Bush in the last two presidential elections. According to unofficial vote totals for 2004, Bush received 2,659 votes and John Kerry received 601 votes.

In the November 2000 election, Juab County overwhelmingly supported Bush. Countywide, 2,023 people voted for Bush and 619 voted for Gore. Nader received 60 votes.

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/politicalInfo.php?locIndex=25953

Utah
COUNTY-BY-COUNTY BREAKDOWN, 2003-2004

County Total Dems Repubs
JUAB, UT $8,850 $0 $8,050
0% 100%

http://www.opensecrets.org/states/county.asp?State=UT&Year=2004

[sgxnk]

107. seems silly to me

so, if somebody is identified as a DC resident, i should assume they are black

ETC.

this is silly, imo

no mention was made of the guys politics, so i don't make assumptions. that seems more fair and logical

furthermore, EVEN if he was a bush supporter

your above stats reference bush supporters, and many who supported bush were not cons, just as many who supported kerry were not libs

[blonndee]

109. You asked why the poster assumed. I responded that it's

a good assumption. And, BTW, I don't give a rat's ass what you think is silly. :eyes:

[sgxnk]

112. fair enough

how much would i have to pay you then for a rat's ass?

i am running short, and you should never be without one

that would be silly :l

[fudge stripe cookays]

129. Why...

do U feel compelled to type in Prince lyric teen-speak?

[Ken Burch]

224. insults against the powerless and the disabled

are pretty much a right-wing staple.

Anarchists and Trotskyists would probably bring the chainsaw.

[MichiganVote]

9. When I was growing up we had a neighbor kid who did this----

He used to run into our house, use the upstairs bathroom and run out. Granted, in a family of ten kids you take a lot for granted but seriously, we all used to just laugh about it and never let it bother us.

I don't think we ever even told his mother who really worked hard to keep a good eye on him. Are neighborhoods all so pristine nowadays that people can't tolerate a little absurdity?

:shrug:

[Warpy]

10. A RETARD puts an apostrophe on a PLURAL

Somebody needs to point that out to him.

[Bill McBlueState]

13. yeah, that's what kills me about it

(I mean, aside from the rudeness.)

I wonder if the author is a friend of the "Morans" guy.

[LincolnMcGrath]

66. Ding Ding Ding Ding

Thank You

[shadowknows69]

114. The morans strike again

I'm series.

[progressivebydesign]

155. My first thought.. besides the horridness of the sign in general. n/t

[ComerPerro]

204. contraction, "retard is", maybe? (im betting no)

[blogslut]

11. Good for the Salt Lake Trib.

Publicly shame those assholes. I'm sorry the son wanders into homes but that mean, spiteful sign is simply not the way to handle the situation.

[Cocoa]

12. get a brain retard's

[stepnw1f]

14. Maybe the Neighbors are Talking about Their own Behavior

Oh, the irony!

[hlthe2b]

15. Is this the societal trend we have to look forward to?

I mean the trend towards very public and nasty retaliation--dropping the stink bomb, so-to-speak, rather than sitting down together to discuss the problem and try to forge a neighborly understanding and solution?

I ask this in all honesty, because we see the absolute disdain for diplomacy on the national and international stage with this administration and I can't help but wonder if this is setting the stage at all levels of society. I'm certainly seeing it in the workplace, as, apparently are quite a few of my friends. Minor misunderstandings are never discussed but the "offended" party, instead instigates a caustic behind-the-scene retaliation, complete with whispering campaign and poisoned alliances....:shrug: Am I overreacting?

[MadMaddie]

82. No you are not overreacting....this is a trend that has been

getting worse over the last couple of years...there is not respect for anyone....the repug mantra that everyone is on their own....no compassion for the sick, for the mentally disabled, any kind of handicap, poverty....you name it the repug world is a selfish world....they are pious people who think that they have the right to dictate to everyone else how they should live their lives...

never mind that the repugs are violating the Ten Commandments and every other rule of decency...

[bluestateguy]

16. I'm not sure what can be done about this

The sign is on private property and makes no explicit threat, even though the boy's family is made to feel threatened. But that would be like saying a Bush/Cheney lawn sign should not be allowed because some people might feel threatened by it.

[Patchuli]

21. If there's no law against that kind of cruelty,

there should be!

As to */Cheney signs or stickers, they make me angry. Does that count as 'threatened?' hehee sorry, couldn't resist.

[sgxnk]

93. no

the first amendment SHOULD protect cruelty

get real

the 1st amendment ONLY means something when it is defended in those cases where you DON'T like/agree with the speech

the sign maker is engaging in boorish and uncivilized behavior

but he still has rights.

[Patchuli]

111. The 'real'ity is

If people are ever going to learn to co-exist on this planet, deliberate cruelty and public humiliation which serves no purpose other than to make some mean-spirited POS feel good should not be allowed. That neighbor is a major A-HOLE who could try using the locks on his/her doors. Hopefully, they will never have a child with disabilities.

I am mostly concerned about the fact that the autistic youth is not watched closely enough and he could get hurt.

[sgxnk]

113. in a society

where rule of law and the constitution ACTUALLY MATTER

cruelty should and is allowed

when it comes to speech

or else, the 1st amendment means nothing

[Patchuli]

120. OK Legal Eagle

whatever. I disagree with the method used by those neighbors to get a point across. Their right to do it is not really the point. Personally, I wish that Mental Health Services would pay them a visit themselves.

[sgxnk]

121. so do i

i disagree with their METHOD too

but i 100% support their constititutional right to express free speech

and i am 100% disgusted by all the people here who think consitutional rights don't extend to "offensive speech

[Patchuli]

173. Here in the Sacramento area

there is a couple who is extremely anti-war. They keep putting up a dummy of a dead soldier on their house within view of the street with the sign "Bush Lied and I Died." Freepers keep coming onto their property and tearing it down. The local rightwing newschannel even filmed the vandals tearing it down. I don't think that is right because it's on their property and it is their right. However, their message is very important. Stop the war.

Those crackers that put up that nasty sign are not using their constitutional right wisely and although they still have the right to look like arseholes, I truly hope that sign gets paintball blasted by a passing car. Those kind of mentalities of calling other human beings "retard" is what is really disgusting. I agree with a poster who replied that everyone else should put up "SHAME" signs to respond to those people.

Thanks for the lectures but I'm not new to constitutional rights.

[Ken Burch]

225. Would you be willing to accept as constitutional the following response:

All the neighbors of these idiots put up signs pointing at their house saying
"Bastards with no genitals in residence".

[Orangepeel]

30. the only thing to be done is to call them out

as ignorant and heartless.

[bloom]

36. Sometimes there get to being a "war of the signs"

That happened somewhere around here - it was in the paper.


Someone saying something obnoxious about the neighbor's dog. The neighbors retaliating with their own sign. Back and forth.

[Triana]

17. We had an autistic kid in our neighborhood...

...he'd some bounding into our house sometimes, just running around, looking at things. We couldn't really talk to him much, but tried to occupy him till we could call his parents. Everyone in the neighborhood knew him, and had his parents phone number. NO ONE EVER even said the word 'retard' much less put up a juvenile, assinine sign like that. We wouldn't have even *thought* of it. When someone saw him wandering, they just tried to keep him occupied and from hurting himself, and called his parents. The whole neighborhood helped them look out for him and no one thought of being so cruel to him or his family.

[MikeNearMcChord]

35. You must've came from pre-Reagan America, when

neighbors actually helped neighbors. But now we live in the Republican/I Got Mine/It's your problem not mine/Lord of the Flies America. And when this is happening in Utah, you know we are far down the road.

[bloom]

40. I had wished

that our neighbors had warned us - as it was rather a shock.

I went and got the neighbors, too, and was surprised when they said that the girl usually raided the __________'s kitchen.


It didn't occur to us to call the police - as apparently happened in the Utah case.

[Guaranteed]

195. THAT is awesome. Sounds like a great neighborhood.

I wish people would just work together more often.

[niyad]

18. I know it's a small community in utah, but hasn't anyone there heard of

LOCKS? handy little invention for keeping unwanted people from your home (and if the cretins who put up that sign were MY neighbors, I would be considering a moat about now.

[TheCowsCameHome]

20. I thought it was posted at Crawford, TX by the Chamber of Commerce.

Silly me.

[karlrschneider]

25. Thanks a bunch, I had to replace ANOTHER keyboard!

:D

[TheCowsCameHome]

26. Yeah, but your nasal passages are probably clearer now.....

[karlrschneider]

31. No kidding, now I gotta eat some horseradish to get 'em back to

normal.
:silly:

[Turbineguy]

42. Shame they ran out of room

"I'm George W. Bush and I approved this message"

[Glenda]

73. lol

:spray:

[Donnachaidh]

23. look at the garbage under the sign -- kind of telling, huh?

wonder if the inside of their house is as *neat*

[niyad]

34. thank you, I had just noticed the garbage, was too much in shock to see

it at first. and by the way, welcome to DU.

[Donnachaidh]

86. thanks for the welcome :-)

[TheCowsCameHome]

41. July's featured property - "Better Sties and Pig Pens"

Very tastefully done, don't you think?

And welcome to DU!

[Donnachaidh]

87. thanks for the welcome :-)

And I do think we need to put this home in for a make-over. Including the tenants }(

[LincolnMcGrath]

28. Could this displace Moran guy?

[rucky]

61. There can be two moran's. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. Please not. n/t

[OzarkDem]

191. Moran cousins, probably

they're a pretty large family.

[pooja]

32. So this is the compassion we show those who are born..

Bush and clan are such idiots. Who cares if the boy is harmless.

[blonndee]

33. The woman and some of her neighbors ought to put up their

own signs reading "SHAME!"

[niyad]

37. definitely a "here's your sign" moment--maybe the neighbors should

get up a nice letter thanking these people for being so thoughtful and considerate as to announce their stupidity to the world. bill engvahl would be proud!!

[WilliamPitt]

38. The only thing worse than an obnoxious and offensive sign

is an obnoxious and offensive sign with crappy punctuation.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. This neighbor needs to put that sign in front of her own house

Sounds like it would fit in her yard.

[Vinnie From Indy]

47. I would walk over and spray the words "wrote this sign"

over the area of the sign that reads "in the area".

[Pirate Smile]

48. What that sign really says is "A HUGE Asshole lives here".

[Sadie5]

53. Was on a message board a few years ago

where a repiggy actually suggested warehousing Autistic kids to keep them out of the population. I have a neighbor girl who is Autistic and it made me mad that such a thing was suggested. The only trouble her family has had was when another family said they didn't want their kids to play with her as they were afraid of what she might do to them. When my Grandson visits he sometimes plays with the little girl(5yo) and she hasn't hurt him yet. The sign makers are the "morans".

[deadparrot]

64. Or, you know,

a HUGH asshole. :D

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. What A Grotesque Display Of Frustration. Shame On Them. However,

shame on the parent's lack of oversight as well. I think the neighbors are horrible and are way over-reacting, but I think it's equally deplorable that the community has to deal with a 13 year old rummaging through their houses. The mother even said he functions like a 4 or 5 year old. Well how many of us as parents would lose sight of our 4 or 5 year old kids enough for them to enter other people's houses and rummage through them?

Shame on his parents, shame on the neighbors. I find them both to be deplorable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. Not so fast.

a) it's easier to corral a four year old, because you only have to do it for one year - try it for a lifetime.
b) it is possible to find child care for the neurotypical four-year-old. It's next to impossible to find qualified child care for an autistic child.
c) it is deplorable that the help that is needed by the parents of children with developmental disabilities is so scarce. This wouldn't happen if parents had meaningful access to in-home care.

[BronxBoy]

132. I think that....

the treatment of the mentally ill in this country speaks volumes about how "enlightened" this country really is.

I have a high functioning autistic son and while he he is pretty well adjusted, he is still considered different.

Number 3 on your list says it all. It's hard enough trying to find help when the child is under 18. Once they enter adulthood, it's damn near impossible. And what you do find is cost prohibitive. We have found a day program for Adults in our area and the cost to attend is $1200 per month. A residential program goes for $30-$40K per year. Money we just don't have.

Yeah we can apply for a medicare waiver which would have covered the cost And we did. AND we are still waiting.

People don't understand that when you say childlike, it takes on a whole new meaning when it comes to an adult.

[lumberjack_jeff]

142. Childlike

When a 3 year old tips their oatmeal off the table, it's annoying.

When a teen throws the kettle, it's something else entirely.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

136. Yes So Fast.

Sorry, but your short list of the same thing worded 3 different ways failed to sway me in the slightest. I sympathize with the difficulties in raising a 13 yr old autistic child and am sure it is quite frustrating. That does not, however, in any way, shape or form excuse the lack of supervision present in order for this 13 yr old to frequently run around the neighborhood entering people's homes and rummaging through their stuff. That is simply inexcusable. So while I find the neighbor's actions to be more deplorable, I find it to still be deplorable that this child's parents are that irresponsible.

[lumberjack_jeff]

146. Not swayed by the concept of "impossible", I guess.

I've yet to find anyone with any practical experience on the topic to post anything as judgemental as your post.

Human beings need to sleep. Human beings (especially parents) need to work to meet their needs. Human beings with developmental disabilities in this society can't expect society's help getting care in a home setting.

If the parents must sleep, and must work, and cannot expect anyone's help (except perhaps a bit of sanctimonious advice to lock their kids up in an asylum) then this crap will happen.

As a practical matter, home care support is much cheaper than institutional care which is a hell to which your fellow CITIZENS should not be subjected except as a last resort.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

160. Do You Enjoy Making Things Up For Sake Of Making A Point? I Prefer Reality

You say: "Human beings with developmental disabilities in this society can't expect society's help getting care in a home setting."

Did you even bother to read the article? If you had, you'd see the ignorance in that statement as clear as I, due to the following:

"She said the state pays for in-home respite care to give Heaton and her fiance, Brad Morgan, short breaks"

Doesn't sound impossible after all. In fact, it sounds like the state has helped out just fine. But you'd know that if you'd actually read the whole article.

Furthermore, the mother admits to letting him just roam the street, but as far as she knows he just goes to the end to look at the trains. Well I guess that's a bit of he said she said then. Maybe the neighbors are making that up, which in that case my statements no longer apply. But if they are truthful, then I hold firm that the parent's lack of supervision is deplorable. If the kid is that bad mentally he shouldn't be roaming the streets at all without her or another's supervision: Period. You think that's being judgemental? Tough. That's my opinion, and opinions by nature are judgments. You're gonna have to accept that.

I hope the neighbors all reach a nice little amicable agreement, though it doesn't seem likely. I think they are far worse for putting up such a horrid and distasteful sign. But if what they say is true, then the child's mother absolutely bears some responsibility in all this for letting her severely autistic son roam the street unattended.

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. I daresay I'm more conversant on what "respite care" is than the author

"short breaks" are usually an hour to go to the doctor or get your hair cut. "Respite care" is not day care, nor is it an in-house care provider to be awake and alert to assure that the person doesn't sneak out while mom is sleeping. In Washington, DSHS allows something like 5 hours a month of respite care, and I doubt it's any more generous in Utah.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. I guarantee that if you had the practical experience on the topic that I have, you'd have a different one. A roamer doesn't await permission to be allowed to roam the neighborhood - they leave while you're in the bathroom. They leave while you're asleep. They leave while you're feeding his little brother. While you're on the phone with the doctor.

So maybe you lock 'em in their room. Then the house burns down and you're arrested for manslaughter. But on the bright side, the neighbors don't have to talk to anyone strange.

A single parent who must work cannot provide the kind of supervision that you envision by him/herself.

Undoubtedly, the magnitude of the problem that the sign authors faced from the kid has been overblown for the purpose of justifying their antisocial act, AND there's little doubt in my mind that their unfortunate children have picked up on their hatred of the disabled.

[lukasahero]

154. Because, you know, locking your doors is so much less appealing

than insulting a child? You don't want someone uninvited in your house? Lock your doors. I always figured that was common sense. :shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

167. Awwww, That's Cute. You're Following Me Now? LOL Anyway, Please Re-read

my post. This time you may find the parts where I bluntly state how horrible it is that the neighbors did something so heinous. So implying that I condoned the neighbor's actions or excused them is just plain disingenuous.

[lukasahero]

169. "You're Following Me Now?" WTF are you talking about?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

171. Lighten Up There. It Was A Joke. i.e. Cause You Just Got Done Replying

to me in the tofu thread. Sheesh LOL

[SensibleAmerican]

51. The ugly side of free speech

n/t

[KyuzoGator]

52. If I were in that situation, I would laugh.

Because 99% of the people who read that sign would think it is referring to the people in that house.

[Solo_in_MD]

54. Follow Up to the Article

- The Sign is down
- The child is a problem for more than just the family that posted the sign
- Child has assualted others

The sign is indeed uncalled for, but the caregivers need to be more dilligent as well...

[pitohui]

63. yes, assault is not suddenly cute because it's committed by an autistic

nobody in this thread would stand still while a dangerous teen boy broke into their home, repeatedly

we have a right to be safe from attack and invasion in our own homes

[Ken Burch]

227. An autustic kid wandering into your home and grabbing things

isn't an assault. Don't use right-wing rhetoric.

[PA Democrat]

69. Sometimes the level of diligence necessary to keep a child like this one

properly supervised is just too much for families without some support services. I'll bet there is just not enough money in Utah's state budget for such "frivolous" expenses such as providing some assistance to families trying to care for kids with disabilities.

[pitohui]

70. well then he must be locked up in a secure facility

sorry, it is criminal to break into people's homes and i don't care why he won't stop, if he won't stop, he must be stopped by force of law

that is why we pay police

are we going to wait until he gets even bigger and seriously hurts someone?

there is no good reason for this boy to be breaking into people's homes

they say he has the brain of a 4 year old child, look me in the eye and tell me that at 4 years old you were REPEATEDLY doing home invasions and assaulting strangers

if this isn't controlled now, somebody is going to be badly hurt, and prob. somebody's young daughter

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. There are two issues here.

1) the issue we are talking about: hate speech and
2) the issue that you're talking about: be ascared of people with autism.

It's a leap unsupported to the article to suggest that he in any way poses a risk to the community.

If he's such a chronic problem to the neighbors, I would think that the Utah DSHS office would have had some record of a complaint. The motivations behind the sign are clear by the fact that the homeowners won't take down the sign after making their concerns clear, nor did they complain to state officials.

The article also explores the idea "is this hate speech?". They say it's not clear because it isn't like a sign saying "blacks live here" or "jews live here". It's much worse, actually because the analagous sign would use the "n" word.

The sign people's behavior is inexcusable.

[Llewlladdwr]

131. I don't think this is "be ascared of people with autism".

According to the article the local police chief says they've had complaints from other neighbors concerning the teen in question. He states that he has contacted state child welfare and juvenile delinquency officials and they have declined to take action. The kid has been accused of assault which the police chief says his department considered forwarding to prosecutors but decided against.

Frankly, I can see a very tragic situation in the making here. At some point this boy may go into the wrong house at the wrong time and end up dead. Or possibly even hurt someone else, intentionally or not.

It seems a shame to me that the teen's mother isn't a bit more interested in ensuring the safety of her child and the neighbors.

[lumberjack_jeff]

178. I agree that it's a tragic situation in the making.

I am familiar with the challenges in raising a child with autism, but unlike most of the posters who lack this experience, I KNOW for a fact that a single mom who must work absolutely cannot independently prevent a roamer from leaving the house.

If nothing else, it has been recently tragically demonstrated what can happen when an autistic child is locked in his room.

The answer is 60 hours a week of in-home residential care. Not to be confused with just respite care, which is nothing but a token.

[PA Democrat]

190. The maximum a family can get for respite care in my county

is under $40 per month, and dropping every year as more kids are diagnosed and no additional funding is provided.

I know families who have kids with autism who I consider to be excellent parents and they just cannot provide all the care and supervision their child needs without outside help. I'm sure you see all the tragic stories of the results of this just as I do. It seems there is at least one story a month of an autistic child who has darted away from parents and then is found dead- drowned in a pool, drowned in a canal, hit by a car, and so on.

I have many friends who have kids with autism who have had some really close calls. Their "negligence" was perhaps trying to get some sleep at night, or going to the bathroom, or being momentarily distracted by the needs of another of their children. Had a tragedy resulted, I am sure they would have been vilified by the same society that turns a blind eye to their struggles until something horrible happens.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. Exactly. Precisely. n/t

[pitohui]

163. he beat a 10 year old girl

they have a record of complaint, they just can't be arsed to do anything to protect the helpless in the neighborhood

a teen boy, autistic or not, allowed to roam free beating up girls, that is inexcusable

i am a high functioning autistic, sorry, you are wasting your time trying to put the claim on me that i'm afraid of autistics

what i'm afraid of is big teen boys who are for whatever reason, parents paying off cops, mom sleeping with DA, WHO KNOWS OR CARES WHY, being allowed to roam free beating up girls and women and invading their homes w. no consequences from the law

i suspect if you don't understand this, you are a large male, so it's easy for you to be indifferent to my right to be safe IN MY OWN HOME AND YARD

[noonwitch]

95. He doesn't necessarily need to be in a locked facility

But wherever he lives, he needs more supervision. Either he needs a program that sends people out to help his mother on a daily basis or he needs a well-staffed group home situation.

One adult in the home is not enough to deal with a kid with his behaviors.

[niyad]

83. please cite link to the follow-up.

[Solo_in_MD]

85. Here it is

It was in the current version of the article the OP linked to:

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_4083657

[earth mom]

56. The ignorance of these people is shocking.

But what more can you expect from Bushbots?! :grr:

[Raskolnik]

57. I don't think a jury in the world would convict someone

of beating this fuckwad with a pillowcase full of doorknobs.

[Forrest Greene]

59. I Once Quit A Job

...because the owner's wife, who of course worked there, used the word "retards" once too many times.

[pitohui]

60. so an uncontrollable teen boy is breaking and entering homes?

sorry, a sign is the least of the family's worries, they are fortunate that he hasn't been shot

he may not understand that he is committing a crime but he certainly is...and it is unclear to me why the parents and the police are not doing anything about it

if the boy continues to break and enter homes, he must be arrested and dealt w. like any other teen boy who won't stay out of people's homes, he is quite frankly a danger to himself and others

i don't condone such a sign...but it sounds like the only recourse the neighbors had to draw attention to what was happening, since the police wouldn't act

if your child or mine had broken into the neighbor's homes...repeatedly...the home invader would be in jail or in a juvenile facility, depending on our age

the "retards" are the parents who refuse to supervise a teen boy

MOST all teen boys are much larger than i am and if one broke into my home i would be obligated to defend myself...and NOT with bad grammar or cheap signage either but with deadly force


we are entitled to be secure in our homes, i think there may be even something in the constitution/bill of rights to that effect

[rucky]

65. Dude, he's autistic.

you deliberately don't say that.

All the parents have to do is give the neighbors a heads-up that he does that sometimes & he's harmless. Here's my number, sorry in advance, blah, blah, blah.

Do you want to live in a fortress or a community?

[pitohui]

68. his autism isn't relevant

i'm supposedly a high functioning autistic but i don't, won't condone this because it's just wrong

all the parents have to do is not allow the boy to break into people's houses, otherwise, he needs to be removed to a secure facility

not every autistic is cute and harmless by virtue of being autistic

many violent crimes are committed by people who have different abilities, i am not suddenly harmless and cute because i have a disability

neither is a 14 year old MALE teen with MALE muscles who is breaking into people's homes

[common cents]

74. The parent is responsible for her child

Repeated incidents of entering other people's homes is inexcusable. I can understand how it might happen once or even twice, but several times? This is a behavior that must be stopped not only for the benefit of the neighbors, but also for the safety of this child. If the mother can't keep an eye on him, then she can get a deadbolt lock that must be opened with a key or have a bell installed on the door that will alert her when her son leaves the house. I speak from experience, having raised a son with autism. He was a little escape artist, too, so we had to take extra precautions.

That having been said, I think the sign is despicable. Good neighbors would try to work out a solution with the parent.

I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but I found that political affiliation had nothing to do with how well or how poorly others accepted my son.

[LisaL]

78. It's dangerous for him as well. Somebody might

actually hurt him or worse if he breaks into someone's home.

[Ken Burch]

228. You make it sound like the kid's a member of the Crips or something.

Fine, you have the right to be safe. But you don't know the situation these parents are dealing with. They are in a red state(the kind of place where the politicians probably think autism is God's punishment for having premarital sex)and the parents are probably doing the best they can.

And who wants to send their child off to a gulag?

[bling bling]

231. Are you sure he's harmless?

I used to be a behavior therapist with autistic children. I worked with an 8 year old girl for a few months. I literally had to take a self-defense class so that I wouldn't get hurt. She was this tiny little thing but she was powerful, quick, and extremely aggressive. She bit me so hard one time it drew blood and I had to go get Hepatitis shots.

There is really no stereotypical autistic child. They span a wide range of characteristics. But it is a fact that many (not ALL, but many) of the lower-functioning autistic children can be violent towards others and towards themselves. I've know autistic children that slam their own heads against the walls when they're frustrated in order to get whatever it is that they wanted.

[ContraBass Black]

62. Where does it say that they're Republicans?

I don't see it. :shrug:

[pitohui]

71. it says they live in utah

they are probably all monsters -- the self-righteous parents who won't give a teen boy proper supervision, the police who can't be arsed to arrest a teen who has committed multiple home invasions, and the sign-makers as well, everybody there is sounding pretty unattractive

be that as it may, even a freeper has a right to be secure from teen-age males breaking and entering their home


(sorry any decent people from utah who are out there)

[bloom]

81. I think

the reasonable thing is for the state to provide social and mental health services - not to lock up people who are unaware of the consequences of their actions.

There are a lot of people in prisons who would be better served - and society would be better served - if the people received some sort of help - not some sort of punishment.

I also liked the idea that the parents of the boy needed to put bells - or some kind of alarm - on their doors. I'm sure that there are other options that would be better than arresting him.

[pitohui]

161. this boy beat a 10 year old girl

i have learned more details since reading this thread

sorry, he doesn't belong roaming free in decent society

bells indeed! when the cops wouldn't arrest him for beating a 10 year old girl? someone is getting paid off bigtime somewhere is all i know

[chat_noir]

67. pics

The Coltons:







FReeper neighbors:

[Pierre.Suave]

76. Sorry, but...

that looks like an episode of COPS.

[Quantess]

124. They represent the apex of class and good manners.

The loose-cannon neighbors, I mean.
I wonder what she's saying to the cop....those two look like they're possibly drunk in that photo.

[nealmhughes]

72. Are people in Utah too stupid to lock their doors?

Why not invite the kid in and give him a drink and cookies and call Mom?

He is obviously not dangerous, just acting as his mental age allows him to do. Very few developmentally challenged people are "dangerous". The problem is that their bodies grow while their mental age is static. Therefore a childish tirade can result in a parent or sibling getting a bruise.

Have pity on the boy, people of Nephi. He will always be the parents' little boy, even when he has grey hair... Just treat him with respect like you would anyone else.

[pitohui]

79. he has assaulted others but he is obviously not dangerous?

it is nice to see from the photo that everyone involved is a big strong large person but there have been other homes broken into

can you guarantee that everyone in those homes is big and strong enough to fend off an assault from a 14 year old teen boy?

i am v. small and petite, to fend off such an assault i would need to use a weapon

no, i'm not inviting the local disturbed kid who breaks into houses to sit down for milk and cookies, this SHOULD be handled by the police

do the police just not work at all any more out west?

first the missing 13 year old girl in colorado (see the lounge) that the police won't bother to look for...and now this

[madmusic]

101. Oh, quit it.

You are looking forward to using your "weapon" and if 3 strikes and you're out isn't effective on this kid, by God, you'll shoot him down.

Thems "born criminals" must be stopped and death is the best medicine.

Who's the moron?

[Llewlladdwr]

133. I agree with pitohui.

Granted the child is 13 or 14, but if I found him in my kitchen without invitation and he didn't follow instructions (ie, get on the floor, don't move, etc.) there's a good chance he might get seriously hurt.

Please tell me, how am I supposed to know he's harmless?

[lukasahero]

156. Well, you could start by getting to know your neighbors

Just a thought... :shrug:

[Llewlladdwr]

168. Are you seriously suggesting...

that I just start popping 'round to the neighbors and ask if they've any autistic adolescents with tendencies to wander into other people's homes that I should know about?

Perhaps I could join the Welcome Wagon and do a visual inspection when a new family moves in.

Or maybe I could go door to door and pretend it was a survey, or the census...

[lukasahero]

170. Um no, I'm suggesting that if you got to know your neighbors,

you wouldn't have to ask them if they had an autistic child, you'd already know. You asked how were you supposed to know he's not dangerous. Well, I'm not sure why my answer to that question is so hard to understand? :shrug:

[Llewlladdwr]

172. The problem is...

What if I've just moved into the neighborhood? Or what if the family of the hypothetical autistic child has? Or what if his family says he's harmless but he's not?

The point I'm making is that if a person comes into your house unannounced and uninvited and doesn't follow instructions to leave or submit there's a good chance of them getting hurt. At least at my house there would be. This kid's mother is being very irresponsible in letting him wander like she is.

[madmusic]

183. Oh, you're bad.

He probably wouldn't follow instructions.

But after you kill him you'd have a good excuse for the cops.

Feel better about yourself? Ready to buy a Hummer?

[pitohui]

165. he beat their 10 year old daughter

the cops didn't arrest him "because he wouldn't understand"

he beat their 10 year old daughter

everyone who has defended this boy and his family should be ashamed

you wouldn't tolerate this happening to your daughter

[madmusic]

184. He threw rocks.

Didn't beat her. Every kid throws rocks, including girls. If everyone should be locked away for life for that, who'd be left?

I really hope the 10-year-old didn't get hurt, but that was almost a year ago (November).

[bling bling]

233. Every kid does not throw rocks.

At least not at people. This kid is 14 years old, too, so he can throw rocks pretty forcefully, I'd think.

If some 14 year old kid threw rocks at my 10 year old daughter I wouldn't be able to just blow it off like that. I'd be livid. A rock thrown at your face could cause a concussion, broken nose, blinding an eye, ie. permanent damage. That's not something I would take lightly.

Not that I'd put up a disgusting sign, of course, but I wouldn't just do nothing either. I should think kids have a right to play outside without having rocks hurled at them.

[aikoaiko]

80. wtf is this mayberry? Lock your damn doors people.

geeeeesh.

[Solo_in_MD]

84. Locking doors when you are home is not normally done in small towns

So the correct approach is for the caregivers to restrain their charge properly.

Lots of us are lucky enough to live in areas where we do not have to lock ourselves in our own homes for safety

[aikoaiko]

180. Sure, but these people have a problem.

They have a nuisance kid wandering into their houses habitually.

Truthfully, my claim to lock the doors was to all parties. The parents really do need to take responsibility for their child and not impose on their neighbors (a-holes as they are to put up such a sign). I know lots of people who are prepared to shoot an intruder in their house.

IMHO, no one lives in any area so safe where a locked door wouldn't be better/safer than a unlocked one. Plenty of country folk suffer from home invasions - plenty.

I totally understand not wanting to live that way (paranoid, locking everything, alarms, etc), but whistling in the dark is no alternative.

best wishes.

[Xithras]

108. Outside of the major cities, many of us don't lock our doors.

My doors are never locked when I'm home, and half the time they aren't even closed. I usually lock my front door when I leave, but even then there's often a back door or a window open somewhere.

My wife was actually raped in one of our previous homes when we lived in a more urban neighborhood, and that house was constantly locked down, but we just don't feel the need for it here. We've not only never been robbed here, but don't know anyone in the area who HAS.

[Gormy Cuss]

116. The question is, after problems with this boy, would you?

I know that leaving doors unlocked is a cherished privilege in suburbs, small towns, and the country but if you DID get robbed would you start locking the doors?

If you had a neighbor kid who meant no harm but kept inviting himself in and startling you or your wife, would you lock your doors or would you put up a sign in the yard -- perhaps with the word 'autistic' rather than 'retard'? I'm not ignoring the issue of whether his own family needs to look for better ways to keep him supervised, but as a good neighbor wouldn't you try to help out by making your place inaccessible?

[Xithras]

119. Me? No, I'd probably sue the parents.

I'd never hang a sign. Buf if the parents were creating a hazard (both for the boy and the neighbors), I would probably take legal action against them for it. By losing track of the boy, they are demonstrating their inability to properly care for and control a person with that type of disability, and are taking on a legal responsibility for his actions. I'd sue with the goal of forcing them to make changes to their care regime, to force them to move, or to force them to institutionalize the kid for his own safety if he is truly uncontrollable.

BTW, a good part of the reason for this goes back to my wife being raped in our previous home. It's a major part of the reason why we're gunowners, and changed my wifes view on gun ownership 100%. If a kid like this one were to force his way into my house after dark, when I wasn't home, there's a good chance that my wife would freak out and the kid would end up dead on the floor before anyone realized what was going on. Situations like this one aren't simply an inconvenience for the neighbors, but actually put the disabled persons life at risk.

[Gormy Cuss]

145. You'd sue, but not lock your doors?

Is that what you meant, or that you'd do both? Remember that the scenario is that you are aware of this problem child in the neighborhood. Court action wouldn't necessarily bring immediate remedy. I understand your position that if a stranger came in unannounced that your wife or you might shoot the person without further provocation but if there is a known hazard such as this disabled, poorly supervised youth I'm struggling to understand why the doors would remain unlocked. Wouldn't that increase the risk that your wife might be traumatized again?

[Xithras]

159. It isn't just a matter of unlocked.

Most of the doors and windows to my house are open most of the time, so no, I wouldn't lock it up to keep the kid out. Why? Because I have good reasons for leaving my doors and windows open. If I close and lock my house, I have to run my A/C which costs a couple hundred dollars a month. At this point, I'm financially subsidizing my neighbors inept care.

I'll leave my doors open. If the kid wanders in, I'll call the police and let them deal with it. I have no desire to change my lifestyle or incur expenses simply to accomodate my neighbors lack of parental skill.

On the upside, it's unlikely that we'd actually shoot the kid. If we knew he was in the neighborhood, we'd make sure that it wasn't him first (probably, my wife still gets a little jumpy to this day when she's home alone after dark).

[colinmom71]

181. With all due respect, please read my response at #179...

And please take a moment to read the linked article. Caring for a severly impaired child/dependent is overwhelming and not at all easy. Suing this boy's parents would just be adding horribly undue stress to their already challenged and impossible lives... Good luck civily forcing against what they don't have any accessible resources to actually have... You'd wind up just doubly punishing (devastating) them for something that was never their fault to begin with.

Though yes, I do agree with you that the disabled child's/dependent's life is at risk because their parents have been left so vulnerable by a government they also contribute towards... And is it not the most valid function of governance to protect all of the general populace in the most practicable manner possible?...

[NMMNG]

88. I'm incredibly angry and want to use foul language.

I'll let the smiley do it for me instead.





That sign is utterly cruel and inexcusable.

[Taoschick]

98. Offensive signs aren't the answer.

I sympathize with the frustration felt by the Heaton's neighbors but that sign was just completely offensive. That said, the boy's mother is being irresponsible. She knows he has the cognitive ability of a 4-5 year old child yet she fails to provide adequate supervision. What's going to happen when he's 22 and walks into someone's home?

[stop the bleeding]

104. I thought of * when I first read it nt/

[Blue Diadem]

110. The sign is offensive and wrong. My concern is the boy

It sounds like everyone is letting this young boy down.

snip:
Heaton is unapologetic about her son's tendency to roam.
"I'm not aware of him going into people's houses. He does go out to the end of the street to look at the trains," said Heaton, adding he is a "sweet, loving guy" who has never been violent.

Meanwhile:
snip:
In defense of the Galbraiths, Bowles said, "We've had a lot of incidents with this kid, just walking into people's homes and taking things." The police chief has contacted state child welfare and juvenile delinquency officials who have declined to take action, he said.

Yet:
Snip:
Human Services spokeswoman Carol Sisco said she was unaware of any alleged criminal behavior by Heaton's son. She said the state pays for in-home respite care to give Heaton and her fiance, Brad Morgan, short breaks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

127. Thank God it didn't say "Gifted & Talented Child in Area"

:hide:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

140. Now, now.

:rofl:

Are you ragging on the gifted?

:P :P

:rofl:

[alcibiades_mystery]

150. Who me?

Never. ;-)

[Beaverhausen]

134. **The sign has been taken down**

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_4083657

someone posted this in LBN

Sign comes down in Nephi
By Lesley Mitchell
The Salt Lake Tribune


Posted: 3:06:26 PM- A Nephi family angry that their neighbor's autistic teenage son wanders the streets and rifles through nearby homes has taken down a sign in their front yard that said, "CAUTION RETARD'S IN AREA."

Kallie and Darren Galbraith did not immediately return calls seeking comment about their sign or why they took it down. But Chad Bowles, chief of Nephi City's police department, said they took it down after he visited their home Friday evening.

"We talked to them I think they understood by using that type of wording they made a mistake," he said. "It's so degrading and it ridicules the family."

But Bowles said he understands the Galbraith's frustration.

He said neighbors have complained for some time about the 13-year-old boy, whose mother, Carrie Heaton, said has been diagnosed with autism and other developmental disabilities and functions at a 4- to 5-year- old level.

"Mostly they complain that he goes into their homes, rifles through their things and eats their food," Bowles said. "There are a lot of people in the area who are frustrated with this boy."
He said the police department considered asking prosecutors to charge the boy when he hit the Galbraith's 10-year-old daughter in the knee and elbow with rocks last November, but decided against it because the boy would be unable to understand what that meant.

[Xithras]

162. So the kid wanders AND is violent?

Bad combination. The parents obviously aren't caring for him as they should be...it's time for someone to step in.

[pitohui]

164. and assaulted a 10 year old girl, a 10 year old GIRL! EOM

.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

139. That sign is disgusting, but WHERE are the parents?

I'm not in any way, shape, or form standing up for the slimeballs who put up such a horrible (and gramatically incorrect :eyes:) sign, or advocating for the institutionalization of people with autism spectrum disorders, but I think it is also necessary to ask: Why is this boy allowed to wander around so much, if indeed he functions only as a 4- or 5-year-old?

[timtom]

148. I read the SLTrib story

and it seems like no one wants to say it's a hate crime. If it is within the bounds of free speech, wouldn't the Heaton family be well within their rights to post a bigger sign, saying something like, "Caution! Nazi pig dog bastards who post semi-literate signs in vicinity!"

Just wondering....

[Skittles]

158. that is unnecessarily cruel

I understand that the sign has come down after someone spoke to them about it; I hope the family gets some help with this teen because his behavior could be endangering him

[pitohui]

166. his behavior endangers the young girl he assaulted also

but no one much seems to care about that :-(

a 10 year old girl beaten by a 14 year old and the cops won't do anything but tell him to knock it off

in another thread, we have a DUer whose 13 year old daughter has been missing in colorado for over 48 hours now, the cops can't be arsed to do anything

god help us all, we pay taxes for THIS? only boys are worthy of protection? jeezus, it's 1955 all over again...

[lumberjack_jeff]

177. Stop embellishing

He didn't beat her, he threw rocks - much the way a person with the emotional maturity of a four-year-old might be expected to do when called a "retard".

[darkmaestro019]

199. That's a very good point.......

And yes, let me beat y'all to it--nobody in the article said the daughter called him a "retard" to instigate the rock-throwing. But I bet Sherlock Holmes would give it a maybe. Let's use our common sense: what do you think Mommy and Daddy call the neighbor boy when they're complaining to one another about it over many, many beers?

Uh huh. Kids. Like parrots, complete with uncanny sense of which words cause a stir.

I'm on the side of those who are appalled that someone who should be essentially parented as a four year old is running around unsupervised. This is a sad bad thing waiting to happen. Here's wishing that the good that comes of it is a nice church or civic group or semi-retired RN or whatever steps up and volunteers a bit of time--and demonstrates that not the WHOLE community is infected with unkindness.

[lumberjack_jeff]

207. I agree

The lack of supervision for children with developmental disabilities is a big problem, but the entire blame cannot be laid solely at the feet of the parents. It is impossible for one parent to adequately supervise a child with some of the more profound manifestations of autism - especially not if (s)he has to work.

Institutional care reduces the clinical outlook for the residents, and it costs an exorbitant amount. The solution for kids like this is in-home residential care assistants, and small group homes for adults.

It would be great if well-meaning neighbors, friends and family stepped in to help, but in my experience those people burn out FAST. Very few people are fully prepared for the magnitude of care that is required by a teen with a 4 year old's intelligence, multiple sensory integration issues (perhaps the sound of a flourescent light, or a yellow dress drives them literally crazy, yet they can't articulate the nature of the problem) a habit of wandering off and an inability to understand the emotional state of the people around them; a person offering a glass of lemonade might trigger the same emotional response as a person pointing a gun.

Good pieces of anecdotal evidence for the magnitude of the challenge of raising a severely autistic child are reactions to the recent news report of a mom who jumped off a bridge taking her autistic child with her. Every parent of neurotypical children whom I've talked to about the incident react with outrage - soundly berating the mom for her selfishness. Every parent of children with autism I've talked to about it react with (varying degrees of) sympathy and sadness.

[bedazzled]

229. thanks for the oasis of compassion and understanding

in a thread that has some unpleasantness in it

many seem to forget "there but for the grace of god go i"

dealing with special needs children is hard, and, unfortunately, we all make mistakes. valuing individuals and caring for your neighbor seems kind of rare now, especially considering all of these folks waving bibles around.

a fish rots from the head down. those in power encourage hatred to retain their control. soon we're surrounded by selfishness and stupidity. compassion such as yours is rare...

[onenote]

212. I think you may be the one embellishing

What evidence is there that the boy threw rocks in response to being called a "retard"? None. Zero. In other words, that statement is truly an embellishment by you. (And, for what its worth, his parents have stated that he wouldn't understand it anyway).

Second, throwing rocks at someone at any age is dangerous. And in this case, while the child's emotional maturity is that of a four year old, his physical maturity is that of a 13 year old and a 13 year old throwing rocks can pose a substantial danger.

[lumberjack_jeff]

217. Sure. That's why we teach kids not to throw rocks.

Usually this lesson is in response to the child having thrown rocks.

You'd think that from some of the responses here that every child which throws rocks should be incarcerated.

The evidence that her parents refer to the neighbor kid as a retard is posted as a 200x150 jpg on the article. It is not a big leap of logic to suggest that the 10 year old is no mature than her parents. Also it is apparent that the boy lacks the communication skills to respond appropriately. In my experience, it's unlikely that the 13 year old would be able to articulate the interaction prior to the rock throwing.

You have her word vs no words. One can only speculate.

The post to which I replied (and multiple ones like it) said a "beating" took place, when in fact the article says that rocks were thrown. "Embellish" is a little charitable.

[onenote]

219. beating = no; attacked with rocks =yes

And I'll ask again: since the sign didn't go up until after the boy attacked the girl with rocks, on what basis, other than complete and utter speculation, do you surmise that the girl prompted the attack? Or put another way, are we to assume you believe that whenever a child throws a rock at someone, that child must have been the victim of a provocation and thus are not to be blamed?

[lumberjack_jeff]

220. Is this a "don't blame girls" thing?

Given that:
1) the girls parents are openly hostile and verbally abusive to the boy and his family
2) that the boy is poorly equipped to communicate his experiences and thus unable to tell his side
3) that the family has a compelling motivation to exaggerate the risk that the boy poses to the community - to avoid looking like even more complete assholes

combined with my experience:
4) that autistic children can become aggressive, but normally as a response to either sensory overload or frustration, such as the frustration which comes from a game of 'neener-neener, keep away from the weird kid'.
5) that almost every neurotypical child will tease a child with developmental disabilities. Unlike the ASD kids in my acquaintance, cruelty is hardwired into NT humans.

I would find it surprising in the extreme if the neighborhood kids didn't tease him.

Also, I think it's fair to point out that no one in the article claimed that the boy was aggressive except the child of the people who posted the sign calling him a retard.

[colinmom71]

179. That's OK, cause likely no one cares about helping the boy's parents...

Either. And it has nothing to do with sexism.

But yeah, in a way, it *IS* 1955 all over again. Except that parents today no longer have the option of institutionalizing their kids without losing custodial care, thanks to the late 1980's "de-institutionalizing" efforts "for" parents of disabled kids (which was really just a Republican afront on social program spending with little forethought into the long-range consequences upon state actions a decade later).

Taking care of a child/adolescent with severely impairing disabilities is full-time and exhausting work. And our public moneys for aiding parents with such a crises in their lives have been slashed by our "compassionate conservative" Republican buddies for the last decade or so... I'd be willing to bet the mother of this boy has been "running on fumes" for ages, since getting skilled respite care for developmentally disabled children is damn near impossible these days. Priority goes to kids with trachs and other medical disorders requiring full nursing care, then everyone else has to wait it out on a list. And almost all other parents of kids with cognitive disorders/disabilities are left in the cold insofar as receiving health aid and support.

I'm willing to bet the parent(s) of this boy are torn up about their son's actions, but without help and support, what can they do? Even the strongest of persons has a breaking point and speaking only for myself, after more than 10 years of raising and caring for a child with far more serious impairments than this boy in question, I can only offer compassion for his parents in knowing (somewhat) where they are mentally and emotionally, and knowing that there are few choices for them in promoting a better life for their vulnerable child (who will forever be a child albeit in a grown-up body in a few years)...

For just a small taste of what raising a child with cognitive impairments is like, please read the following... http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/01/05/kelsos/index.html Keep in mind, this only a short taste of what this parent's life is like. And she actually had helpful and understanding neighbors to help her out!

[PA Democrat]

189. Thanks for your input colinmom71.

I don't think people outside those of us who deal with raising a disabled child realize how demanding it is, and how funding for programs to assist families raise their kids at home are being cut (when they were severely underfunded in the first place).

In PA, the waiting list for services for people with disabilities grows daily, often with tragic results. It seems at times that the only cases getting any priority are the ones where some severe emergency has occurred, like both parents have died.

My daughter was a "darter" when younger, and figured out how to disarm alarms, unlock doors, and even climb out locked windows. We were fortunate enough to have the funds to bring in top rate behavioral specialists and break her of this habit at a very young age. It took round the clock vigilance, which would have been impossible without outside help. I am lucky enough to have had the option of giving up working outside the home so I could work with my daughter to work on safety issues, along with a never-ending list of skills which she lacked. That's not an option for most families.

[lumberjack_jeff]

209. Thanks Colinmom

btw - my son's named Colin.

:hi:

[JohnLocke]

182. Jesus.

Some people...

[madeline_con]

187. That's a hate crime. n/t

[underpants]

192. That is really sad

sorry about the dupe :hi:

[PA Democrat]

194. No problem underpants.

Glad to have you join the discussion!

:hi:

[underpants]

193. Kick

to the top

[Ganja Ninja]

205. All I can say is I'm glad I don't live next door to either of them.

If you check out the kids brother he's sitting there laughing about the whole thing. He looks like the type that would put his brother up to making trouble and probably did. The guy with the sign looks like a typical Bush lover.

[KamaAina]

216. If some lugnut had put that sign up across from my house

I'd have had a good mind to go over and point out, not terribly politely, that my IQ is somewhere in the 150-160 range. People with autism are NOT necessarily "retards".

Wonder what Utah's service delivery system is like? If it's like most states, young Mr. Heaton may not be getting all the services he needs to cope with these behaviors.

Oh yes, imagine the outcry if the sign had said "n----r" or "faggot" instead of "retard" :grr: :banghead:

[lumberjack_jeff]

218. According to some...

... apparently including the Seattle Police Department, it may not be very nice but it's all good 'ol free speech.

"It's just a cross burning, move along citizens, nothing to worry about here."

[Ken Burch]

226. Actually, there was a great piece, which I assume was true

in the National Lampoon "TRUE FACTS" section on a similar theme.

The gist of the story was that there was a black family living next to a white family, and the white guy had named his dog, you guessed it "N----R". The black family took the white family to court over this, claiming the white guy would call his dog for hours at the top of his lungs, even while the dog was sitting at his feet.
The judge fined the white guy and ordered him to change the dog's name, and said(this is pretty much verbatim)"You wouldn't like it if (the black guy next door)named his dog Asshole".

[Swamp Rat]

232. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Most people put up signs that say "home sweet home."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

234. Consult an attorney. I think it might violate housing laws for handicapped

The sign can be construed as an attempt by other homeowners in the neighborhood to force a handicapped person (your son) out of the neughborhood. In which case, I believe that there is federal and possibly even state protection to prevent discrimination against the handicapped. At the very least, she could fila a civil suit against the offending parties home owners' insurance, but I am pretty sure that prosecutors can charge the other families with a crime.

In Texas, some people tried to keep a a group home for several mentally retarded boys from moving into their neighborhood by writing letters to the editor and making publicity about the house and the prosecutor threw all kinds of charges at them. It was a real eye opener about the rights of the disabled.