Why doesn't Israel have a right to self-defence?

[jerry611]

I cannot for the life of me figure out why so many people think this whole crisis is caused by Israel when the leader of Hezzbollah publically declares that there will be no negotiation, and terrorism will continue until Israel is destroyed. And remember that it was Hezzbollah that kidnapped the Israeli soldiers, that act is what sparked the current crisis.

Sure Israel has hit some civilian targets. But why the hell won't you condemn Hezbollah or other terrorists for doing the exact same thing? Hezzbollah and HAMAS blow up buses in Israel filled with women and children and the world stands silent. Israel retaliates and the world gets angry with Israel? I don't understand this philosophy at all!

Sorry, but I agree with Israel here. They have a right to self-defense. They have people around them that is publically calling for their annihilation. Are you telling me that Israel is forbidden from defending itself from those people?

If radicals from Mexico or Canada came across the border and blew up American buses filled with women and children...should we sit and do nothing? Do you think Americans will sit and do nothing?

I dont like war either. I dont like violence. But when your very existance is being threatened by radical religious extremists hell-bent on your destruction, you must do whatever is necessary to defend yourself.

[davidinalameda]

1. I agree 1000%

thanks for the post

[ContraBass Black]

57. Where are the other 9 of you?

;)

[question everything]

108. I second that

And less we forget, Hezbollah's leader Nassrallah said that he wished all the world Jewry gather in Israel, so he won't have to go after them world wide.

If this is not anti-Semitism I don't know what is.

[billbuckhead]

2. Yeah, just ask the Native Americans about that self defense thing

or Mexico for that matter.

[cynatnite]

Israel does have the right to defend themselves...

I won't argue that. They do have a history of dispraportional responses where ten times as many people are killed than the Israelis have killed.

Another problem is that in that entire area it's an eye for an eye. All that's mostly left now are blind people.

If you attacked me, I will defend myself, but I'm not going to kill the person standing next to you in hopes I get you.

[blonndee]

4. I think it's well beyond eye for an eye at this point, though,

wouldn't you agree? More like a bombed-out, burned up corpse for an eye. Or something equally as heinous. :-(

[cynatnite]

13. To be honest, I don't know...

when people going to work or shopping are murdered by suicide bombers I'm not sure.

If I were to look at what's happening now and no farther, I could agree, but over the last twenty years of innocents dying on both sides, I just can't say.

I just want it to stop. :(

[jerry611]

11. But if that guy is attacking you from behind me??

What if he is attacking you from behind me and the only way to stop him is to hit me in hopes of hitting him...would you do it?

Because that is what Hezzhollah is doing. They are filling up hospitals, schools, and mosques with missiles and ammo. Because they know if the Israelis hit it, there would be international outcry. These terrorists know how to play the PR game.

[cynatnite]

17. I'd use my ingenuity to get around you

grant it, this is a poor analogy and practically worthless in comparison, but I do think I'd make a greater effort not to harm other people in my attempts to get you.

Plus if it looked like I would have to kill ten or twenty people to get one person, I think I'd prefer to negotiate with the one trying to kill me.

[niyad]

28. have I been missing the proof of the hospitals, schools, etc? filled with

bombs and missiles? citations, please.

[Scurrilous]

43. "They are filling up hospitals...

... schools, and mosques with missiles and ammo."




Looks to me as if the IDF is the one filling up hospitals.

[Pepper32]

104. Hmm, I think I missed the proof also...

poor baby :(

[Ms. Clio]

53. I wouldn't hold your breath n/t

[Truthiness Inspector]

3. I agree n/t

[DYouth]

5. They deny that right to Palestinians daily

Occupying, attacking, kidnapping them. That's why Hezbollah intervened.

[joemurphy]

6. If you come up and push me in the chest

is it measured self-defense to reach into my pocket, pull out a 357 Magnum and blow you away?

[DemforNagin]

14. re: If you come up and push me in the chest

"Posted by joemurphy


is it measured self-defense to reach into my pocket, pull out a 357 Magnum and blow you away?"


Blowing up a bus full of civilians, or a restaurant full of the same, is hardly a "push in the chest".

[jerry611]

16. Blowing up a bus of civilians is more than a "push to the chest"

Your argument fails...

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. So is launching air strikes

and dropping bunker busters on people's houses. Nor should we forget the frequent incursions into Gaza and the bulldozing of everything in sight.

[Minstrel Boy]

91. Are you not confusing Hezbollah with Hamas and the al Aqsa Brigade?

For clarity's sake, I don't believe that's been a tactic of Hezbollah's. But correct me if I'm wrong, with a link.

[Wonk]

7. If a couple radicals from Canada blew up a bus in the US

would you advocate for carpet bombing Toronto?

What Israel is doing now is NOT self-defense, it's collective punishment, which is expressly forbidden by article 33 of the 4th Geneva Convention.

[DemforNagin]

21. re:

I disagree. It's self defense by a measure of punishment. And doesn't the Geneva convention, in most of it's sections, only apply to a uniformed, standing army?

Just my 2 cents.

[blonndee]

26. Punishment to civilians? That's self-defense?

You forgot the punchline.

[Wonk]

32. Article 33 specifically applies to treatment of civilian populations. nt

[MadMaddie]

8. Of course Israel has a right to self defense....but....

this latest skirmish.....has the US * cabal right in the middle of this apparantly before all of this started Cheney met with the Israelies....military experts are now saying that the kind of reaction that Israel is implementing is not an immediate reaction to the kidnapping of the Israelis soldiers but the military action was obviously well planned.....

Going after Hezbolah is one thing but destroying major cities and towns in Lebanon is not the right answer.....look at the mass exodus of civilians....

I am not taking sides...Hezbolah is as dangerous as OBL AlQueda but the innocent civilians are getting murdered...on both sides....there has to be a better way to resolve this.....

[radwriter0555]

9. Because israel went after lebanon first. They crossed the line after month

after month of provocation.

The captured soldiers were 6 kilometers into lebanon when they were taken.

Hezbollah arose from the backlash of the israeli oppression against the lebanese, just as Hamas came out of the flames of the palestinian oppression. Israel isn't the good guy here; just like the iraqis, these people are fighting back the only way they know how and with whatever they have.

Israel's reaction to 2 soldiers being captured inside lebanese land is way, way WAY over the top.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Where are you getting this information?

[H2O Man]

10. Canada?

I think some fellows did come here from across the Canadian border. I believe they were from Saudia Arabia.

[Wonk]

12. None of the 9/11 hijackers came via Canada. Ahmed Ressam tried in 1999

and got caught at the border.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/27/lax050727.html

edit: I remembered the year wrong, and changed my subject line to correct it.

[H2O Man]

37. My error.

I suppose I could say that VP Cheney provided information on Atta meeting them in Canada, but we might not wait for that smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. I've developed an unnatural fear of Canadians after reading DU this past week.

[Spazito]

63. LOL, I am glad somebody is ascared of us.....

usually we don't even get noticed.

[Spazito]

40. Oh no, H2O Man, you aren't referring to 9/11 are you?

The only episode that ever involved Canada was the man caught at the border after coming off a ferry from Canada who had bomb making equipment and was going to California to blow up something, that was in 2000.

NONE of the 9/11 hijackers came from Canada, NONE. They either came from overseas or were already in the US with US visas.

"None of the 19 hijackers entered the U.S. from either Canada or Mexico, information confirmed by former U.S. attorney general John Ashcroft and the 9/11 Commission investigating the attacks, wrote McKenna in his letter to Gingrich."


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/04/21/gingrich-mckenna050421.html

[tnlefty]

15. Kill'em all, let God sort it out!

There is no longer any reason for peaceful conflict resolution, not today, not yesterday, not tomorrow, not ever. Any and every action is justified.

[niallmac]

18. If you want to justify Israels right to self defense

which I do not believe many in DU dispute then it would seem
that simple humanity would compel you to acknowledge that
the misery it inflicts on the innocent is regrettable. It's long term
effects toward a lasting peace are doubtful. Nothing noble is being
demonstrated here other than a failure of Israel, the Arab nations, the
United States and Europe and the rest of the world to craft a lasting
peace out of a situation all of the above parties had a hand in creating.

[jerry611]

29. War has been non-stop in that region for 1,000 years

Every single cease-fire is eventually broken. Every single attempt at peace ends in failure. The fighting is never going to stop in that part of the world.

And what are you to do with those that claim there is no negotiation? Hezzbollah publically states that there is no chance to negotiate. The only solution is for Israel to be destroyed. That's it. How the hell do you talk to people like that and expect there to ever be peace? You can't. Those people are road-blocks to peace. And they need to be removed...physically if necessary.

[niallmac]

38. We here in the United States have our own fanatics.

I have a tendency to be naive in these things but my experience
tells me that if you get the majority on board on both sides then
somehow the crazies get taken care of one way or another.

If smoldering sentiment and unhappiness with the way things are
going exists on one or both sides then the crazies mysteriously
get their money and weapons.

[Lindacooks]

58. So you're advocating genocide?

That is hardly self-defense.

Oh, by the way, how's that doctrine of kill kill kill doing for Israel? Making it safer?

[oberliner]

31. Beautifully Put

I think your sentiments are shared by everyone here no matter what their perception of the conflict.

Although I must add that in the short time I've been posting here, I have actually seen many people dispute Israel's right to self defense.

That said, I find this comment of your to be one of the most profound things I've read here thus far:

Nothing noble is being demonstrated here other than a failure of Israel, the Arab nations, the
United States and Europe and the rest of the world to craft a lasting
peace out of a situation all of the above parties had a hand in creating.

I think it is encumbant upon us all to do everything we can to work towards a lasting peace.

[DavidMS]

19. No one is saying that Israel cant defend itself

Critics are sugesting that Israel should volentarialy restrain itself to maintain compliance with the present laws and customs of war and respond perportionatly. This means not near indiscrimately bombing what appear to be non-military targets. Thats called a War Crime. Of cource if these are military targets thats a diffrent story. I have seen several pictures of the aftermath of Israeli bombings in Beruit and they appear not to be aimed at military targets.

During the 1st World War the Germans, French British, Russians, etc no-doubt promised to annihilate eachother. Its just retoric (at least at this point). Hamas and Hesbollah are legatimate restance movements that engage in attacks on civilian targets (violating international norms of armed conflict). This does not grant the Israelis the right to ignore the same laws of armed confict.

The Israelis don't have clean hands either (Sabra and Shatila massacre, colony building in the occupied West Bank and Gaza strip).

And Joan Peters claimed there were no such people as Palistianians (see the refutation by Finkelstein).

[Ignoramus]

20. I haven't read anyone say Israel doesn't have a right to self-defense

The complaint I read is the killing of civilians.

I haven't read anyone say, it's okay for Hezbollah to kill civilians but not okay for Israel to.

There is a big problem the framing of this dispute as being between 2 equals sides though. There are 4 sides. The Israeli and Lebanese populations are the 2 victims. Hezbollah and the Israeli government are the 2 aggressors.

It's further complicated by Israel being considered the representative of the Israelis, while Hezbollah is not considered the representative of the Lebanese people. So, this makes the main dynamic be an accountable body (the Israeli government) raining death down upon an unaccountable body (the Lebanese population).

It is nearly always the case that someone's act of violence is either retaliation or a reaction to a grievance, in which case it is similar to retaliation. So, what this implies is that it doesn't matter who's fault it is, the problem is the violence. The solution is to stop retaliating.

Of course, a government has to defend itself. But bombing civilians isn't defense, it is yet another instance of someone committing an act of violence in retaliation for something.

Just ask yourself, under which condition would you find it acceptable for New York to be leveled? (Or, under what circumstance would you find it acceptable for Tel Aviv to be leveled?) If you can't think of such a condition, you shouldn't find it acceptable for cities in Lebanon to be blasted apart.

Are you responsible for Bush's policies? Do you deserve to be killed because of your government's policies? Of course not.

[Bobbieo]

42. Israel is doing to Lebanon

What Bush has done to Iraq!

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. Then shouldn't the same apply to Iraq?

I hope you don't mind when Iraqis start targeting us in the name of self-defense after all we've done to them?

[Bobbieo]

60. Will there be any Iraqis left to target anybody?

[DoYouEverWonder]

74. Not if BushCo

can help it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

24. I listened to a guy who just got back from Lebanon today

He said the Israelis are deliberately targeting civilians, blowing up apartment buildings where people live. Hundreds of children have been killed. He also said the Israelis tell the Palestinians they are going to bomb a certain area, and they should get people out of the area. So they evacuate the area and the Israelis drop bombs on the people on the roads as they are evacuating, instead of the area they claimed they were targeting.

Now how is Israel defending itself by deliberately killing civilians? How does killing children relate to defending itself?

[jerry611]

35. Maybe you should ask Hezbollah that question too...

Next time they blow up a bus filled with civilians, why not ask Hezbollah how this furthers their goal to peace?

They will tell you simply that killing the Jews is a goal, civilian or military. They don't care. They just want annihilation of Israel.

[blonndee]

48. Ask Israel why they're blowing up buses

filled with civilians. And cars, and trucks, and motorcycles, and apartment buildings, and paper factories and prefabricated home manufacturers, and daires...

So what is their goal? Is killing Lebanese, civilian or otherwise, their goal? Do they care? Or do they just want annihilation of Lebanon?

[Lindacooks]

62. So because they do it, it's okay to do it back, only on a more

massive scale?

I think you're confusing self-defense with two wrongs don't make a right.

And nobody here is advocating annihilation of Israel. But if they keep over-reacting and kill 10 times more, or 100 times more, or 1000 times more than were killed among them, they WILL be annihilated, along with the rest of us.

[RethugAssKicker]

25. Israels reaction is TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS !

Hezbollas motive was to capture these soldiers for a prisoneer exchange... and Israel well knew this...This full scale bombing of the Lebaneese infratstructure and targeting civilians is absolutely disproportional and an extreme over reaction.... and WITH BUSHS BLESSING !

This is nothing more than PNAC PHASE II

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. I Condemn Hezbollah.

But I also think Israel has overreacted justttttttt a tad.

To me, it's the equivalent of you getting busted for smoking pot and the state locking up you, your entire family, and everyone that went to high school with you for 5 years because of it. Just a bitttttt too harsh of a response.

But yes, Israel does have the right to defend itself, and Hezbollah is most definitely a terrorist group in my opinion. But there has to be more restraint and strategy in reply to Hezbollah's atrocities than what we currently are witnessing.

I will admit, however, that I don't know what exactly the answer would be. I just know I hate what I see right now.

[dorkulon]

30. Killing civilians is wrong, period.

It doesn't matter who's doing it. Of course Hezbollah & Hamas are to be condemned. So is Israel. So is the US for that matter.

To cite your own example, If radicals from Mexico or Canada came across the border and blew up Americans, should we blow up the Toronto airport? Should we kill thousands of uninvolved civilians? No, we shouldn't and we wouldn't.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

36. So because some don't think Israel should get a free pass...

to go overboard and needlessly kill civilians like they have we're stupid, ignorant dolts?

:eyes:

[azurnoir]

41. Ignorants dolts

Like the ones that write flamebait to try to get threads they don't like locked?
We hear what you are saying however Israels reason for the attack on Lebanon was the kidnaping of 2 tanythisoldiers not suicide bombers, that didn't get thrown in untill the UN wanted sactions. The Israelis are targeting anything that could possibly be used by Hezbollah now or in the future this includes farms, food processing, medical facilities, homes, roads,transportation trains, buses,car trucks, anything needed to live. What so far has not been targeted is Christian villages and farms. So according to Israel and the Bush administration every thing is fair game, it just has not been said that succinctly.http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/20/lebanon/

[blonndee]

44. You're right. We're ignorant dolts for wishing people wouldn't die.

If only we were more informed about the world, we'd be more heartless and warmongering, just like Bush and his cronies.

[Wonk]

47. Since it seems that's the best you can do, you won't be missed. nt

[Ms. Clio]

51. you already had one of these deleted

so maybe it's all for the best.

[Cleita]

39. Stop projecting.

Israel is not defending but attacking in the eyes of many of us. So if you want to convince us that you are right, please explain how assault is defense. I find this no different than what the USA did to Iraq when they first invaded. Maybe you guys ought to learn from the Bush administrations very big mistake in calling attack...defense. Look at the mess we have created.

[jerry611]

68. IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU???? SERIOUSLY!

(And yes, the cap-lock is intentional!)

The president of Iran says Israel should be blown off the map.

The leader of Hezzbollah declares that terror will not end until Israel is annihilated.

The Palestinian government is now being run by HAMAS, a group that wants Israel "pushed into the sea."

Israeli civilians are being slaughtered by these organizations.

And you are telling me that Israel is on the offensive? GIVE ME A BREAK!!! I guess Israel should just sit and do nothing as their civilians are being slaughtered. I guess maybe the Israelis should wait until Tel Aviv or Haifa is nuked. Although I am certain idiots like you will claim Israel provoked the attack.

And the sympathy I had with Palestinians is all but gone after they elected a militant religous organization to head their government. They will never have peace with those people in power. And if Palestinians keep putting those people in power, then they can expect much worse than a bulldozed home.

[blonndee]

69. You need to stop with the name-calling.

If you start a thread like this, you can expect to be challenged and debated. The poster didn't call YOU an idiot for disagreeing with him/her, so I suggest you tone it down a little. Please?

[Ms. Clio]

72. that's ultimately all they have

pitiful.

[Ms. Clio]

70. your post is a personal attack

and using your "logic," if the U.S. keeps putting people like the Chimperor and the neocons in power, it can expect much worse than 9/11, as well.

[jerry611]

73. It's idiotic

It is meant to be a personal attack because it is stupid to say that Israel is prosecuting an offensive war.

When everyone around you is preaching for your destruction and killing your civilians...your reaction to that is DEFENSIVE...not offence. Israel has every right in the name of international law and the rules of war to defend itself and protect their citizens.

If Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran all stop the hate-speech, stop the violence, and disarm... Israel's attacks will also end. And then maybe we will have a chance at peace. But as long as these fools hold on to their weapons and preach their hatred...I can't blame Israel for wanting to just get rid of the threat.

[blonndee]

76. ...

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[cynatnite]

78. And they won't stop until Israel stops...

It's a never-ending goddamn war because NO ONE will stop.

[Ms. Clio]

81. it's just (str)awfully annoying, and against DU rules

hope you enjoyed your little outburst.

[Cleita]

71. I'm wondering if something is wrong with you SERIOUSLY!

You have had sympathy with the Palestinians? Your posts don't even show a glimmer of that.

[jerry611]

80. After they elected Hamas...not much left...

Sorry but when you elect terrorists to lead your government...you can't expect peace. They get what they voted for...war and killing. HAMAS is never going to agree to peace with Israel. It's not going to happen. These terror groups have absolutely no interest in peaceful coexistence. They want Israel destroyed. It's that simple.

[Cleita]

82. Apparently a deluded cabal elected terrorists to lead our

government here in the USA. I wasn't one of them, but by your logic all of us who couldn't get enough votes to keep the creeps out of our government deserve to die. Has it ever occurred to you Israeli IRA types that very few on either side want this? I know because I was very close to the Irish troubles for years.

[cynatnite]

77. The problem is seeing this entire mess only one way

Yes, there are people who want to destroy Israel. And some are willing to kill as many Jews as it takes even if they have to die in the process.

How much compassion should I have for a government that has just as much, if not more, blood on their hands of civilian innocents? Israel's wearing plenty of blood, too.

Israel wants to stop those who want to kill them. I don't blame them a bit. Hell, I'd give 'em a gun to help them do it, but I absolutely will not support in how they indiscriminately kill innocent people who have the misfortune to be born and live in the wrong place.

I'll never forget a gun battle some years ago involving Israeli soldiers and Hamas soldiers. A father was next to a building with his young son trying to stay out of the crossfire. I remember the video of the crying little boy who was scared out of his mind. The little boy was killed.

All those assholes who pick up their guns, drop bombs and continue to fight a never-ending war can go fuck themselves. ALL OF THEM!

Just leave those who want to live in peace alone.

[jerry611]

88. Terrorists have even less care who they kill

When we were in Somalia in 1993. The militia used women and little kids as sheilds. They shot at our soldiers from behind those women and children. And they cornored and ambushed our men. Which means our guys were forced to shoot through those civilians in order to save themselves and kill the bad guy.

It has become a very, very common tactic world-wide for the underdog in any war or conflict to use civilians and civilian targets to try to score a cheap home run and gain sympathy from those that hate seeing innocents killed. It works unfortunately.

[Cleita]

93. Terrorists are notorious for this, so now that you

seem to have had a breakthrough by realizing the problem, it's time for you to admit it's wrong.

As far as the lost lives of innocents as cheap sympathy, it seems to me that no life should be considered cheap especially the lives of those who didn't sign up for combat duty. I am sorry to know that you feel this way.

[jerry611]

103. Civilian death is a reality of war

It's unfortunate. But that's reality.

In world war 2, over 55 million people were killed around the world. More than half of the dead were innocent civilians trying to escape the fighting.

You will find that most wars have very similar ratios considering the deaths. Civilians suffer more death than the armies that fight the war. Simply because the armies are fortified behind defensive positions and have weapons to defend themselves. Civilians on the other hand are almost always in the cross-fire, and are always in the wide-open trying to flee.

I'm not arguing if it is justified or not.. I am just making sure you are aware of the statistics considering who dies in a war.

[blonndee]

105. But this isn't really a "war," is it?

It seems more akin to a hostage situation, to me.

[jerry611]

111. You don't fire missles and drop bombs in hostage situations

You got armed conflict on both sides. you have diplomats involved. A lot of hate rheteric. Bombs are falling. Missiles are being fired. Automatic weapons are being fired. People are dying...

Sounds like a war to me...

[Cleita]

106. Collateral damage! I spit on your military assessment of

collateral damage! How do you think they convince you that killing children and old peope is all right? I am very sensitive and I am actually getting sick arguing with you and I am going to light a candle for your soul.

[jerry611]

110. I am not arguing justification

I am just giving you the mathematics of it...

[cynatnite]

94. Somolia was an election ploy....

bush sr. was trying to stay in office.

At some point, common sense should prevail. Stop shooting, let them get away in order to catch them another day rather than to kill fifty people so they can kill two.

Not worth it at all.

[jerry611]

107. Do you know what happened in Mogadishu?

They trapped and ambushed our soldiers. We couldn't just pull out or retreat. They blocked exits with burning cars. Meaning our guys had a choice to either stand there and die or fight the battle and escape.

Now we should never have been put in that position. We made two critical errors. One, we didn't tell anyone we were going in. So if we needed help, it would take a day for anyone to come in. Second, you don't go into urban warfare with humvees. You need tanks and a ton of firepower. The general that planned that raid resigned because of that mistake. Unfortunately not one politician that put us in that war wanted to accept any blame. But that's how politics goes in America...

[cynatnite]

112. Yes, politics have caused a hell of a lot of bloodshed...

Not just US politics, but also Israeli.

You don't have to tell me about Somolia at all. I had friends there.

[azurnoir]

79. See there

you go yet again-your either for us or against us. No one has said Yeah Hezbollah, Israel has a right to defend its self, but as a civilized nation there is a limit and 2 soldiers does not give Israel the right to destroy an entire country. BTW fewer Israeli civilians have died in past 6 years than have died in Lebanon in the past two weeks. As far as Hamas driving Israel into the sea, that stopped having any meaning other than rhetoric long ago. In reality Hamas alone never had that ability and never will, at a time when the entire Arab League wanted Israel gone it may have been a real threat, but that time has past. Hamas alone or Hamas and Hezbollah together do not have the ability to destroy Israel.

[jerry611]

84. You seem to put a low value on individual human life

Why don't you go over to Israel and explain to the mothers of the kidnapped soldiers that their son's life isn't worth fighting for.

You don't seem to understand something...When you allow this behavior, it will not stop with just 1 soldier. Hezbollah kidnapps people because they like to make trades for release of their captured jihadists. Israel has reached a point where enough is enough. It's not going to be tolerated anymore.

This is why the USA has a long-standing policy to never negotiate with terrorists. Because it just ends up becoming a cycle. You make a deal with a terrorist today and all is happy. But tomorrow that terrorist will find a way to put you in position to make another deal, and another deal, and another deal. And before you know it, you have nothing left to give. And you've lost.

[Cleita]

87. You are projecting again.

What about the Arab mothers of dead children who died in bombed out buildings? Mother's on both side suffer when their children are killed.

[cynatnite]

89. Uh, the US does negotiate with terrorists...

where've you been?

Are the deaths of 400 people worth the lives of two soldiers?

Don't lesson the lives of the innocents who have nothing to do with this and have died over it.

[jerry611]

92. Its more than just 2 soldiers

This is a straw. And sooner or later, these straws that keep building up will break the Camel's back.

And that back right now is on the verge of breaking right in half.

[cynatnite]

97. No, it's not...

If you think Hezbollah is going anywhere after this you're only fooling yourself. This will make Hezbollah stronger. All they have to do is back off, keep low for a while, regroup and come back at a later time.

Hezbollah began as a grass-roots movement and it has social services that no other group can compete with. They have a hell of a lot of support from the people and some have been elected to the Lebanese parliament.

Don't delude yourself. Hezbollah is there to stay...Just as Hamas is.

[jerry611]

113. Then war will be there to stay as well..

Because the people in charge of Hezbollah has declared time and time again that there will be no peace with Israel.

So I suppose peace will always be elusive.

[azurnoir]

90. I think I do understand

do you think the mothers of the kidnapped soldiers approve of hundreds of slain Lebanese, will it bring their sons back? These men/boys (no ages have been posted) are soldiers and danger is part of the job. Israel did not have to take out the infrastructure of Lebanon to get them back nor do they have to negotiate. Israel knew the Lebanese government was too weak to take out Hezbollah long before this incident, and could have worked with Lebanon I believe an offer like this was made on or about 7/15Israels response was to bomb Lebanese military bases. Still there were other military actions that could have been taken, including the UN peacekeepers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. I've got a better idea

Why don't you go over to Israel and explain to the mothers of the kidnapped soldiers that their son's life isn't worth fighting for.

Why don't you go over to Lebanon and tell those Lebanese whose small children were killed, whose homes and businesses were bombed, who were bombed as they were fleeing, who are having their country trashed just after it was rebuilt from the fighting of the 1980s that their lives and their children's lives and their whole country aren't worth as much as two Israeli soldiers?

[Cleita]

100. My point exactly. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

86. This conflict didn't start last week. Not even last century.

Israel's response has been asymmetric. The civilians that have been targeted can't be rationalized as somehow being hezbolla human shields. Israel is fighting terror with larger-scale terror.

What's different this time is that the guys supplying missiles to Israel are cheering 'em on, instead of trying to broker a peace.

The president of Lebanon has asked the UN for help in rooting out the terror organizations in the southern part of his country. Pleas which have fallen on deaf ears because bombing children is job one.

[aikoaiko]

45. yep.

Its stunning to see so many anti-Israel comments on DU with very little condemnation of Hezzbollah.

I'm not particularly fond of the way Israel was formed, but they are there and they are not leaving.

[earthside]

46. The Power of Propaganda

"Why doesn't Israel have a right to self-defence?"

That's what most aggressor nations throughout history have asked rhetorically to justify their attacks.

The United States just used this line to rationalize the invasion of Iraq ... Saddam was an "immediate threat" and we had to attack preemptively because we have a right to self-defense.

A more provocative questions is: "Why don't the Palestinians have a right to self-defense?"

I abhor violence and war in particular ... suicider bombers blowing up restaurants full of people is terroristic and evil. But why are these people so compelled to such extreme tactics? Because they are treated like dogs by the Israeli government, they have no weapons to speak of, so they are driven by horrible frustration and desperation to terrorist measures. It is not an excuse to find out why ... but you may find an answer that can lead to peace if you try to understand.

Israel has a right to self-defense, but with its overwhelming military power (paid for mostly by the American taxpayer), they also have a duty to act in a responsible manner, indeed, the burden is mostly on them since the Palestinain people are currently under their jurisdicition.

Sadly, however, since the death of Rabin, it appears that a racist element has dominated Israeli politics with the ultimate goal to crush the Palestinian people into dust. Any act of defiance from the Palestinians is called "terrorism" and vicious collective punishment is meted out to whomever the Israeli govenment whats to bulldoze or target with air-to-ground missile.

How about instead ... "Why doesn't Israel have an obligation to make peace?" They could start by following UN resolutions 242 and 338. They could also stop the bombing of innocent civilians in Lebanon and stop killing people in the Gaza Strip concentration camp.

[cynatnite]

49. They also do it because they're going to heaven...

for martyring themselves to a great cause. Somewhere along the way these people rationalized that it was okay to strap a bomb to their chest, go to a restaurant and blow everyone up.

You and I know it's not okay, but those that do this don't know it. Even with the frustration of only having rocks to throw at tanks, it'll never be an excuse in my eyes.

I cried when I heard Rabin was dead. He was the last best chance the ME ever had for peace.

[blonndee]

50. I wish more people would try to imagine

what a sense of hopelessness and lack of options a person must have in order to commit such an act. I know the "glory" of martyrdom is part of it; nevertheless, what a desperate measure to have to take. I condemn all killing of innocent lives, but simply trying to imagine another's perspective (honestly) has made me much more sympathetic to ALL oppressed people.

I like your question. It's a much better one, and more honest.

[jerry611]

56. It's brainwashing...not hopelessness

You are trying to blame poverty as a cause of terrorism. That argument has been roundly rejected by analysts and researchers. We have homeless in America that are hopeless and you don't seem them blowing up innocents because of poverty.

What is happening here is these terror organizations take youth at very young ages and subject them to hate and violence. Have you seen the Hezzbollah videos of children? Some are as young as 8 or 9 and they are wearing their little terror customes holding an automatic rifle and talking hatred about Jews and America. You know damn well they didn't make the decision themselves to say those things. Someone else told them to act this way. These kids will grow up and become the next generation of terrorists.

It has nothing to do with hopelessness.

[blonndee]

65. It doesn't have anything to do with hopelessness?

Okay. Whatever you say. :eyes: Since you seem to know so much, why in the world would organizations exist Do you think this hatred is just inherent, with no basis whatsoever?

[Ms. Clio]

52. and just how many times is this strawman going to burn? n/t

[blonndee]

54. Its frequency is indicative, I think,

of the position being (str)awfully defended. :eyes:

[Ms. Clio]

55. it's (str)awfully annoying n/t

[blonndee]

61. LOL. Very cute. nt

[Scurrilous]

59. Hasbara...

...it's hard work!

[Ms. Clio]

83. hah

I actually had to google that.

[ContraBass Black]

67. How much straw exists in the world?

[Ms. Clio]

85. enough to send it all up in flames n/t

[Chulanowa]

64. Of course they have the right

So do Palestinians and the Lebanese.

Now do you want to get into the knock-down brawl over which side is exercising "defense"?

[ContraBass Black]

66. False premise.

Few DU'ers are saying that it does not. Rather, many DU'ers argue that Israels response has been so massively excessive as to unduly punish civilians and initiate large-scale hostilities without directly addressing its security issues.

[tyedyeto]

75. So, you believe that 2 soliers kidnapped or captured...

allows any country to bomb the shit out of another?

Just trying to find out where you stand with *... who says that's why he supports Isreal in this military action.

[oberliner]

95. Standing with....

“I stand firmly with the people of Israel and their government as they defend themselves against these outrageous attacks. The kidnapping of Israeli soldiers and missile attacks against Israeli citizens are unacceptable and cannot be tolerated.”
-Russ Feingold

“Israel was attacked. Israel's not occupying any of Lebanon. There's no cause for this. It's simply an unprovoked attack.”
-Wes Clark

“Israel has every right to defend itself, its citizens and its soldiers against the outrageous acts of terrorism carried out by Hamas and Hezbollah."
-John Kerry

“None of us condone terrorism in any way, shape, or form, and I believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that was, is, and remains a threat to peace in the Mideast, and must be dismantled and disarmed.”
-John Conyers

[Cleita]

99. John Conyers is the only one who makes a little sense.

Yes, terrorist organizations must be dismantled and disarmed, but killing those who really are just there because that's where they live isn't the solution.

[Th1onein]

98. This is not self-defense

I've taken the time to read a little of Israel's history during the past few days. I'm far from informed as I want to be, or as I should be, but given what they have done in the past, this is just another excuse to grab land. That country is, without a doubt, one of the most aggressive I've ever seen.

[oberliner]

102. just out of curiosity

what were you sources?

[Benfea]

101. You're starting this discussion with a logical fallacy

You're presenting a false dichotomy (bifurcation) logical fallacy: either Israel grossly overreacts and blows the hell out of people who have nothing to do with Hezbollah, or Israel doesn't do anything at all to defend itself.

If this is the only thing Israel can do to make itself safer, then I would say that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself, but if you are any kind of a reasonable person at all, you would admit that your premise is at best misleading.

You are using the same logic that American conservatives use to defend our actions in Iraq: if you disagree with the invasion of Iraq, then you are against America defending itself and want the terrorists to win. It's a deliberate attempt to subvert public discourse when conservatives do it about the current Iraq war, and it's a deliberate attempt to subvert public discourse whe you do it about the current hostilities between Israel and Lebanon.

Here's an entirely different view on making Israel safer:
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2006/07/20/01210.html

[blonndee]

109. I'll be surprised if you get a response.

Too much actual logic and reason, and not enough rhetoric and hype.

Excellent post, BTW.

[The Magistrate]

114. Locking

This has become a flame-war.