One area of this ME war that everyone here might agree on...

[cigsandcoffee]

...we all ultimately want peace for the people there. Speaking for myself (and I'm sure for most everyone else who supports what Israel is doing), I can tell you that my ultimate hope is for a lasting peace to come from the ashes.

I do not like war - I despise the need for it and its grisly results.
I do not like it when civilians die.
I do not like it when a beautiful country is bombed.
I do not enjoy seeing either combatants or innocent civilians "punished."

But I am hoping it brings peace. Like the people who want an immediate cease-fire and a diplomatic process, I hope that this situation will end with progressive results.

There is a lot of strife around here, but maybe if it's understood that we really all have the same ultimate goal, our strong disagreements about how to get there will not be so enflamed. I need to remember this as much as anyone, and don't want to come off as preachy. I just thought it needed to be said.

[oberliner]

1. agreement

I agree with you.

Though I am a newbie!

I wonder what sorts of replies your post will bring.

[cigsandcoffee]

6. I hope people will take it at face value.

I really do think that nomatter who here at DU offers their differing opinions about how it should be reached, all of us joining the debate ultimately want Israel and its neighbors to live in peace with eachother.

[hopeisaplace]

2. I think the general public wants peace for sure..the leaders though?

I just don't know what to think. I'm definitely confused.

[cigsandcoffee]

7. I don't know if they do or not.

But I do believe that everyone here does. One would have to be a real monster to want to see war and nothing else.

[hopeisaplace]

10. hopefully the majority of humanity does, and you're right

anybody beating the drums of war and nothing else, in my books, is a monster.

[benburch]

3. See here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1690487

[cigsandcoffee]

11. Kudos for saying that, but your statement disregards my opinion.

"All sides need to stop killing people and start negotiations towards a lasting peace NOW."

I disagree with that, and think Israel should do all it can to wipe out Hezbollah's ability to wage war, stopping only after that. Quite a few people disagree with me, and I know that - but I don't feel that way because I want war or like seeing people killed and cities destroyed, I feel that way because I think wiping out Hezbollah may lead to a positive change and a more meaningful diplomatic effort. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but my opinion has no impact on what will happen, and I'm a person that tries to learn from my errors - and I hope Israel is a country that has and will learn from its errors, too.

[catmother]

16. i agree with you. i started a thread last week saying that i felt that

Hizbollah, hamas, and al qaeda should be wiped out. i was flamed, called a freeper and worse and eventually the thread was locked.

i hope we all learn lessons from this mess.

[cigsandcoffee]

30. There has been some ugly dialogue, alright...

...and I'm as guilty of snapping at people as anyone. I agree with you about learning lessons, and hope a debate can eventually take place without all the scorched earth.

[benburch]

20. A lasting peace means those weapons are given up, no?

And that is a much better option than slaughter.

[cigsandcoffee]

34. Well, IMO, a lasting peace means that Hezbollah...

...has no weapons or means to use them if they did, and that somebody hangs around to make sure they don't rebuild. That's were we diverge on how we hope that peace will be reached.

[catmother]

39. again i am in agreement with you. the other day tucker carlson

who i really don't care for was in the ME and he was speaking with the president or prime minister, one of the top guys in lebanan. the guy said lebanon would fight israel with their army. tucker said to him "why don't you use your army to get rid of Hizbollah?" the guy said "oh no they take care of the poor, they do such good deeds". that statement supporting Hizbollah made me less sympathetic to lebanon's misery. i know they give to the poor and do good works but that's how they get the people to come over to their side. it's the same with Hamas and al qaeda. those good deeds do not make them good guys. they are TERRORISTS.

i was about to send money to UNICEF who is giving aid to the lebananese and after that statement and the statements of some of the people praising Hizbollah made me change my mind. i thought my money might go to Hizbollah and not the suffering people.

[Erika]

56. Terrorists and Republicans look at the good they've done

in the name of humanity. About equal in results and motive.

[catmother]

61. now, now, not all republicans are bad people. i know many of

them and we just have differing views. in fact, 2 gay couples that i know are both republicans. i mean all 4 which is something i find hard to understand inasmuch as the dems are much more liberal on that issue.

[Erika]

65. My GOP friend is in a panic now that the Iraqi war is not over

She's paid a fortune to keep her son out of the military. Race cars, college, etc. He had wanted to go into the military.

He's now 23 and still living at home. She's beside herself to keep him out. She's another republican elitist who believes it is good we are kind to the poor who volunteer by giving them a chance to see the world and earn education bucks. It's almost as good of deal as we gave to African slaves.

[catmother]

67. my repub friends are far from elitist. they're just regular people

trying to make a living and get by. i would not associate with anyone who was elitist no matter what their political views are. those people really rub me the wrong way.

[benburch]

43. In other words after they are exterminated to the man.

I catch your drift.

That is peace all right.

The tomb is a VERY peaceful place.

[uppityperson]

4. indeed cigsandcoffee

Indeed, though I do not support what Israel is doing, the rest of what you write I agree with.

[cigsandcoffee]

14. Fair enough.

I fully respect your opinion, and know it's both an educated and prudent one. I'd like to think my own has some basis in logic and history was well, but that is an area for civil disagreement.

[blonndee]

5. Okay

I'm not among the "everyone else that supports what Israel is doing."

But I share in your hope. I don't see how the killing will BRING peace, but I do hope for an end to the fighting as soon as possible.

[cigsandcoffee]

9. Me too, Blondee.

That quote was me speaking for the other folks who are supporting Israel's actions because it's really turned in to an us v. them thing, and I think needlessly so. The war is over there - we don't need to have one here in order to offer or challenge opinions that ultimately aren't going to have an impact on how soon the fighting ends anyway.

In the end, we all want peace. If we're wrong, then let us be wrong - we'll learn from that. And if something positive comes out of this conflict that otherwise wouldn't have happened, then that's worth considering too.

[SammyBlue]

8. Amen, brother. I hope one day there is peace on the Jordan River

and I hope it's in my lifetime.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. Ditto and cheers.

I wish I could be more hopeful about it, but it's worth keeping hope alive.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cigsandcoffee]

13. Ouch. Questioning their right to exist is pretty harsh stuff.

I had kind of figured that most everyone here fully supported the idea of a continuing country of Israel regardless of our opinions about how it should behave. Did I misinterpret your post?

[catmother]

18. let me put a bandaid on your Ouch. i fully support israel

remaining a country.

[cigsandcoffee]

24. lol

Thanks for that.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. It may surprise you to know that, a) there have been Jews living there

continuously for centuries, and b) a great deal of that supposedly "stolen" land was bought and paid for.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. I abhor $40 Billion a year going to lock up pot smoking cancer grannies.

But when people argue that Israel has no right to exist- I'm not talking about the bible, I'm talking about planet Earth, 2006 CE- then you have to understand that the Israelis choices are to

a) agree, pack up, and leave - or

b) defend themselves as if real peace (the kind that recognizes their nation) is clearly an impossibility.

[Erika]

42. Or petition S. Carolina or Kansas to give up their territory

so they could come here and make it their homeland. Maybe Zell Miller would donate half the counties in Georgia?

[Warren DeMontague]

Right. And how offensive would it be to suggest

that the Palestinians pack up and leave?

Israel is the Israelis home. It is. They're not leaving. They're not moving to Kansas. The fact that certain members of their neighbors can't deal with that reality is central to the problems facing the region.

I certainly don't think the Israelis are blameless- and I think what they're doing now is excessive and wrong- but REAL PEACE is going to depend on not just Israeli withdrawl from occupied territory (by that I mean the West Bank, not Tel Aviv) but on their neighbors finally coming to grips with the REALITY of the nation of Israel.

[Erika]

68. OK I'm sure South Caroliners would forgive the plum part

of their state given away by foreigners, and would just accept it as "live with it, it's the new reality"

Israel will not find peace. Israel was created wrongly.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. Israel will not accept "peace" on the terms of "you need to just go away"

So there you have the situation as it stands. Hey- at least you're honest about the terms on which you expect "peace"- namely, the elimination of Israel. It's nice when we can get past the BS about how Israel's behavior, or the occupation, is the problem. It's their existence.

[ErisFiveFingers]

54. Didn't we already do that with Oklahoma once?

Of course, I guess that didn't turn out so well..

[Erika]

58. Oh yeah, we sent the Indians there

Maybe the Oklahoma state government would sign the Israelites up for classes at Liberty University, in Tulsa.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catmother]

25. do you believe in what the bible says? i consider it a book

of fiction.

[Erika]

28. But the Christians justify Israel's existence

because of Biblical references.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. Good for "The Christians". I "justify" it (as if it needs such a thing)

because it's right, it's there, and it's THEIR COUNTRY.

[catmother]

37. it doesn't matter if its a christian or a jew or a muslim, i don't

pay attention to the bible, the koran or the talmud.

i think therein lies a big problem -- religion.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. That's baloney. The religious right isn't that powerful, or persuasive.

Israel is supported because -generally- over the past 60 years it has been the right thing to do.

[Erika]

53. Yes, Falwell & Robertson believe it is the "right" thing to do

As does W and Joe Lieberman. The super powers gave part of the mideast to "Israel" because of massive guilt because the west did not stop the holocaust. We didn't check in with the existing inhabitants prior to setting up Israel. We told them then, and now, if you don't like it, who cares. You're only powerless Arabs.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. Do you believe every Mexican who wasn't in the USA 60 years ago

should be expelled, too?

[oberliner]

79. Why is Israel in quotes?

How could the super powers have given part of the mideast to "Israel" when Israel did not exist yet? And why did you put Israel in quotes? Do you actually mean Jews?

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Because this poster considers Israel a "fiction". That's my guess. nt

[cigsandcoffee]

49. I'm sorry...

....but I can't help but think this is dangerously close to real antisemitism:

"They were mercenary entrepreneurs who knew the U.S would give to them as if they were the 51st state, and they wouldn't even have to pay the taxes we do."

You're painting the founders of Israel with the age-old characterization of Jews as greedy and unscrupulous businessmen. You're not questioning Israeli policy, but rather making a stereotype of its Jewish founders. That's over the top, IMO.

[Erika]

66. Excuse me. Our state was the 1st state to elect a Jew as

governor and it was done so proudly. He also formed a men's clothing store which was very successful. He was known for being a good man who paid good wages and treated all decently.

[catmother]

51. you know i've been doing a lot of thinking lately as to why there

is so much anti-semitism and i don't mean just here on DU. and the thought came to me. Is it because the jews call themselves the "chosen" people? is it because they're smart, educated and usually successful?

my own sister-in-law in new york works in one of the most famous hospitals. she and one other woman are the only christians in her department and she doesn't like it. she says "the jews think they're better than everyone else." now my husband and his sister were raised by anti-semetic parents. they also didn't like the italians, the puerto ricans, etc. my sister-in-law still holds onto the anti-semitic views that her parents had, but my husband is just the opposite.

i, thankfully, was raised by parents that were more liberal and open minded. we were raised catholic, but when i was in my teens my mom used to say "marry a jewish guy -- they treat their wives like queens". i didn't. i almost did, but it didn't work out. but i am married to a really great guy.

[Erika]

55. It is NOT anti-semitism

It is a realistic view of the Zionists who now control Israel, and their warring practices, paid for by U.S. taxpayers.

My state was the first state to elect a Jewish governor, Moses Alexander.

[catmother]

57. not everyone is anti-semitic good for your state. being from

new york city, i was very accustomed to having jewish politicians. now i live in phoenix and i don't even know many jewish people. it was kinda weird in the beginning. i've only had one medical professional who was jewish -- everyone else is christian. just the opposite in new york.

[Warren DeMontague]

78. That proves

doodly-squat.

[barb162]

70. they treat their wives like queens

My Mom said the same thing!

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Half of my family is Jewish. I grew up unaffiliated, but in a mostly

Jewish community.

As a budding atheist, I rebelled against religion in general; and in my surroundings, as often as not that meant Judaism. As a kid, I really thought most of the world was like where I lived- I thought at least half the world was Jewish, or that there were Jews everywhere. The idea of "anti-semitism" struck me as odd, to say the least. I always thought people were making it up, because where I lived, no one dared make anti-semitic comments.

It was a real surprise to me when I went away to college. For the first time in my life I heard people say openly anti-Semitic things, probably not imagining that this fairly nordic-looking hippie might be part Jewish. It was pretty eye opening.

[cigsandcoffee]

27. South Carolina would be very unhappy with that.

But I don't know if the land that became Israel can be fairly compared to that state or this country as a whole.

[Erika]

29. That's what the super powers did

They carved up the mideast so Israel could have a plum land.

[catmother]

44. but it's done. it's been almost 60 years. maybe the arab

countries should be taking out their anger on the super powers and not israel.

i believe they carved up pieces of iraq too. and what about india? didn't the brits rule india?

[Erika]

47. Yes, Kuwait took over Iraq's sea port.

But Kuwait became the darling of global corporatists so Hussein's attack on Kuwait was seen as aggression rather than reclaiming their coastal ports.

[catmother]

52. the whole thing is a fucking mess. and, of course, the US came

to the aid of Kuwait and we protected saudi arabia because of their oil. if the saudi people took over they would get rid of that whole bush loving, handholding royal family. another thing that bugs me is "the poor palestinian people". well a few years ago i saw the statistics and the US gave the most money of any country to the palestinians. where are their rich arab brothers. why aren't they helping them out more?

edited for spelling.

[Erika]

63. The U.S. does give a token to Palestine in foreign aid

but nothing like we're giving to Israel, to blow up the Palestinians. The rich Arab "buds" are corporate globalists involved in the global economy. They'll go whichever way the wind and economics blow.

[oberliner]

45. clarification

How could they have carved up the mideast so Israel could have a plum land when Israel didn't exist yet?

Do you mean so that the Jews could have plum land?

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

32. So Israel is a "fiction". Wow, go figure that they don't want "peace"

on the kind of terms that demand their nation's total destruction.

You say "we all want peace"- it doesn't sound like you want peace, it sounds like you want Israel to go away.

[TahitiNut]

15. Waging war for peace is like fucking for chastity.

"Ashes"? Whose "ashes"? The cremation imagery reminds me of the "crispy critters" I saw during Viet Nam. Sorry... I spent my time in a combat zone. It's not a movie or news program. It's more hell than most can conceive. Maybe we'd be better off if some of the wargasm addicts spent some time cleaning up the bloody mess in a combat zone..

[cigsandcoffee]

21. We obviously disagree, and I am aware you think my opinion...

...is as wrong as a bottle of chips, but I do believe we both want to see the same result over there. That alone is worth something, IMO, if only a little tolerance in our discourse.

[hopeisaplace]

19. one positive, liberals are free thinkers,

we don't all read from the same play book, we are not afraid to assert
what we believe our truth to be, we express our opinion and don't believe
everything we read or see on tv. We're independent thinkers. Perhaps the
Democratic Party should celebrate that trait. It's certainly better than
being a stepford-conservative..constantly spewing talking points and allowing
media types to rent space in your head...just my thoughts, :)

[cigsandcoffee]

22. I fully agree.

Diversity is strength, and all ideas should be on the table when hashing out a course of progress. If something is the truth, then it can stand up to a challenge.

[hopeisaplace]

48. yes, can you imagine a round table of diverse opinions

in the Whitehouse Boardroom..my goodness, leaders seeking diverse
opinions!, considering opposing views, balancing the matter then
concluding the course of action...nahhhhhhhhhhh that's too effective.
Ironically, I'll bet most successful corporations do this. :think: :crazy:

[Erika]

31. and becoming ventriloquist dummies for W, Rush, Coultergeist

Your post was great.

[hopeisaplace]

35. thanks,

quite frankly, I feel I'm in the right place reading about "current events"
when everyone doesn't always agree. :)

We can agree in our ideology, but still be diverse in our opinions.

[The Magistrate]

59. We All Want A Lasting Peace, Sir

People really ought to remember that in discussing this matter.

[Ms. Clio]

69. I guess it depends what people really mean by "peace"

"they make a vast desolation and call it 'peace.'"--Tacitus.

[The Magistrate]

71. You Know, Ma'am

The real art is in finding what areas of overlap there are, and seeking to expand these. That is how progress is made, first in coming to respect and understand persons to whom one stands in opposition, and finally in coming to substantial agreement after all.

There are many definitions of peace, of course, and put bluntly, those that cry it must include justice are as wrong on the main point as those willing to dub as peace a desolation.

My own definition is simply a damned sight fewer people being killed than at present, and that condition holding long enough to strike all concerned as the normal state of affairs.

"Peace, n.: An interval of cheating between periods of fighting."

[Ms. Clio]

72. the grave is a very peaceful place

but none do there, I think, embrace.

[The Magistrate]

74. "The Dead Know Only That It Is Better To Be Alive."

[catmother]

60. these moderators are fast tonight. i try to see how people

respond to my posts and i get "name removed".

no offense to the moderators. they do a great job and i'm sure it's not easy keeping track of all of us.

[Rex]

62. Well if ya look at history it will just breed resentment and more

intolerance. I hear ya, I wish this one time it would be different. Peace at any price I guess.

[catmother]

64. well this has been a great discussion, but my eyes are starting

to close so i'm going to bid you all a "goodnight".

[liberalpragmatist]

73. Agreed.

Thank you.