Most Americans still think Iraq had WMD's! Goebbels would be proud

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

http://magic-city-news.com/article_6360.shtml

Even more appalling:

"US adults believe that the following are true about the war in Iraq:

* Seventy-two percent (72%) believe that the Iraqis are better off now than they were under Saddam Hussein (slightly down from February 2005 when 76 percent said this was true).
* Just over half (55%) think history will give the US credit for bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq (down substantially from 64% in February 2005).
* Sixty-four percent(64%) say it is true that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda (the same as 64% in February 2005)."

The 72% believing the Iraqis are better off is especially lame-- considering that Baghdad is now a hellhole, women are forced to stay veiled up (when they were free to move about before), Christians are being slaughtered left and right, and over 1 million educated and well-to-do Iraqi citizens have left the country, this belief can only indicate a truly bottomless ignorance mixed with arrogance.

No wonder the United States keeps blundering into one fiasco after another-- even 3 years into the Iraq debacle, a majority of people in this country are still stuck with the same delusions of March 2003. And this is supposed to be a country that leads the world in science and mathematics? With appalling critical thinking skills such as this?

Either a large fraction of the population is stuck with chronic stupidity disorder-- or the Bush Administration's propaganda machine is remarkably effective. Considering that propaganda is just about the only damn thing that Rove and Co. are good at, as they push this country to bankruptcy, it wouldn't surprise me.

[pauldp]

1. We can thank the infotainment MSM for those numbers. n/t

[bluestateguy]

2. I'd like to know how that question was phrased

Did the questioner simply ask if Iraq ever had WMD's? In that case the American people aren't so dumb. Sure, Iraq had WMD's 20 years ago if you count chemical weapons as WMD's.

Sixty-four percent(64%) say it is true that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda (the same as 64% in February 2005)."

This is more disturbing. Perhaps people should have to take a little test before they are allowed to vote. If you think that Al Qaeda=Saddam, you are disqualified from voting. I remember one person told me with a straight face that Saddam paid money to the 9/11 hijackers.

On the other hand, that same harris poll gives Bush a 34% approval rating, so don't fret too much.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

3. Pretty sure it was possession of WMD's prior to US attack

i.e., WMD's as the casus belli. The 34% approval for Shrub is more encouraging, except that I fear it's more a factor of higher gas prices than the Iraq fiasco. IOW, if not for the effects of an only mildly related issue (gas prices), in spite of Bush's abject failures in Iraq and our impending defeat there, he'd still be getting majority support, with the Iraq defeat shrugged off.

I can't imagine this happening anywhere else in the world-- a failure of this magnitude would provoke a no-confidence vote and a change in Parliament. This is something the Founding Fathers warned about centuries ago, i.e. the danger of needing to viscerally feel a crisis among much of the electorate before anything's actually done about it (or neglecting obvious evidence), with the result that the crisis overwhelms the country when it actually arrives.

[kdmorris]

5. Here's a link to the actual poll:

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=684

{shakes head} Goebbels WOULD be proud.

[Peace Patriot]

4. This is a very poorly written article with zero sourcing on these polls.

No citations. No methodology. Unknown pollsters.

The writer is a vice president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police. And look how the opening paragraph is phrased:

"Despite being widely reported in the mainstream news media that the US and other countries have not found any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, as well as Democrat talking points that Bush lied about WMD, more Americans (50%) think that Iraq had such weapons when the US-led coalition invaded Iraq."

'Democrat talking points.'

Need I say more?

Check out his web site: http://jimkouri.us/

Photo of himself with a gunstrap on his shoulder, over a logo that reads "'Move Off' Network Member." (--as in "we're against "MoveOn.") My random check of the links reveals it to be a rightwing news network.

---------------------------------

There are no doubt pockets of ignorance (disinformation) in the average American mind, but despite these, the truth is that the American people are remarkably well informed and remarkably progressive in their views. I've studied a wide range of polls over the last three years, and I've been very impressed with these two points, and both surprised and heartened by them.

The majority of Americans have been consistently opposed to the Iraq war since before the invasion (and even after Colin Powell's 100% pack of lies to the UN): Nearly 60% opposed, Dec '02-Feb. '03. It's over 70% today, with a whopping 84% opposed to U.S. participation in a wider Mideast war.

Even more surprising, 63% of American oppose torture "under any circumstances." This, despite relentless, 24/7 propaganda about "terrorism."

Finally, consider the polls we all know about: 30% to 35% approval rating for Bush--for well over a year, a precipitous fall from a meager 50% on the day of his second inauguration, and he can't get a significant bounce no matter what he does or says.

Tell me the American people are stupid. I don't believe it. It's not true. What the American people are is DISENFRANCHISED. Here's a sampling of the polls on war and torture:

Most Americans Oppose Torture Techniques (5/27/04)

Given pro and con arguments, 63 percent in an ABC News/Washington Post poll say torture is never acceptable, even when other methods fail and authorities believe the suspect has information that could prevent terrorist attacks.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Polls/torture_poll_040527.html

--

December 17, 2002;

Poll: Bush hasn't made case for Iraq war

More than two-thirds of Americans believe the Bush administration has failed to make its case that a war against Iraq is justified...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-12-17-iraq-poll_x.htm

--

January 13, 2003

Poll: Majority of Americans oppose unilateral action against Iraq

A robust majority of Americans - 83 percent - would support going to war if the United Nations backed the action and it was carried out by a multinational coalition. But without U.N. approval and allies, only about a third of the public would support a war with Iraq.
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/001415.html

--

Knoxville News Sentinel, January 24, 2003

Bush Hasn't Made Case for War in Iraq
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0124-04.htm

--

Attack on Iraq rejected by 2 in 3 voters (12/02)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/08/12/npoll12.xml

--

56 Percent in Survey Say Iraq War Was a Mistake (12/21/04)

"A full 57 percent disapprove of his handling of Iraq, a number that is seven percentage points higher than a poll taken in September."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14266-2004Dec20.html

--

Americans Reject Involvement in Mid-East War (7/16/06)
- Many adults in the United States believe their country’s armed forces should play no role in the current Middle East conflict, according to a poll by SurveyUSA. 84 per cent of respondents believe the U.S. military should stay out of the war.
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12604

[Peace Patriot]

6. PLEASE stop calling the American people stupid! It's like kicking

somebody when they're down. The American people are the most propagandized people on earth, outside of maybe North Korea. We are subjected to relentless warmongering and fear tactics, and are struggling NOBLY, it seems to me, to maintain our sense of ethics and lawfulness, and our long tradition of social progress, and to keep informed and to try to understand what's going on. I think we're WINNING this struggle. Bush has had NO SUCCESS at selling his fascist program to the American people. And the war profiteering corporate news monopolies can't get him more support, no matter what delusionary garbage they throw at us.

Why not praise the American people for their consistent opposition to the Iraq war, and their continued belief in high standards of lawfulness and decency, and their withering contempt for Bush, instead of demeaning them on the basis of selective, unvetted polls, collected by a rightwing columnist?

Think about this. Please. There really is a quite overwhelming case for the American people being disempowered, and, above all, disenfranchised--for their will not being done, for the Bush junta being deaf to the majority, and for increasingly fascist tactics for control of election results (the latest being Bushite electronic voting corporations now running our entire vote tabulation system with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code and virtually no audit/recount controls).

Americans have been reduced almost to word-of-mouth communication (plus the internet) for any real news, and for wide ranging opinion that reflects majority views. Despite this, most Americans have remained skeptical of the Iraq war, and opposed to it, since way back in 2002. That is a great accomplishment! People have done that, by word of mouth, by seeking real information and spreading it around, and by plain old common sense. (They don't trust Bush.) And they've done this on virtually the entire Bush program (60% to 70% opposition to every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic). And all this, while the corporate news monopolies rape their minds every day with the most disgusting assaults of lies and drivel.

I think a lot of Americans are in a state of bewilderment about the Bush junta--likely because the fraudulent election system has been THE most black-holed story of all. They don't know what's gone wrong. They don't know how to fix it. They are depressed and demoralized. But I think "sheeple" is a dead wrong characterization. Ordinary people are not stupid. They have been rendered powerless, and they haven't quite yet figured out HOW.

Some have, though. The ones who are requesting Absentee Ballot votes (it's gotten up to 50% in Los Angeles). They know the voting system is rigged. They are trying to find a way around it--a way to get their vote COUNTED. They don't realize that AB voting is not safe either. And they need to know this. But they won't vote on the machines. They are BOYCOTTING the machines. I think if enough people do this, we'll have our revolution right there. Say it goes nationwide and gets up to 60% or 70%. What good are these expensive, shiny, new election theft machines, if nobody will vote on them?

I really, really believe in the American people. I believe they will find the way to oust this junta. When I see 50% Absentee Ballot voting, I know something's up.

I think we should jump on this and make it a formal PROTEST. It will increase voter turnout, and change voting from a passive act into an positive, rebellious outcry. Bumper sticker: "Help America Bust the Machines--Vote Absentee!", or "Boycott the Machines--Vote Absentee!"

Spread the word!

[Peace Patriot]

8. Note: The Harris poll, which is NOT cited in the rightwing OP, is a mixed

bag, which mostly reveals an overwhelmingly negative view of the Iraq War. Sometimes disinformation takes a while to get vetted (for instance, this recent ridiculous "find" of WMDs in Iraq). (There is a mystifying jump from 60+% skepticism on Iraq WMDs back in '03-'04, to recent 50% belief in Iraq WMDs, likely attributable to this disinformation.) I think what's remarkable is that, despite some obvious disinformation that has stuck around for a while (Saddam connection to Al Qaeda), Americans still, in huge numbers, disapprove of this war and think that it was not worth the cost in lives and humongous debt. And there are several issues on which the war profiteering corporate news monopolies have played a critical role in muddying the waters and making it difficult for people to know what's true. For instance, no doubt some people are still confused about Saddam and Al Qaeda because of the RECENT killing of Zarqawi. Most people have no way of knowing that Zarqawi was in U.S. controlled Kurdish territory before the invasion, and was able to move into Baghdad BECAUSE of the Bush invasion (because Saddam was removed). People would have to be fairly avid researchers to find that out. The corporate news monopolies constantly smear over, and fuzz over, matters like this, making the whole picture very murky to most people.

Further, as to Iraqis being better off today than under Saddam, most people have no way of knowing what life was like for most Iraqis prior to the invasion. They were given ZERO information about it by the corporate news monopolies. And the few who do know something about it, tend to think of the sanctions, the no-fly zones, a downtrodden, defeated Iraq. They don't know of the previous prosperity, high education levels, and relative freedom (compared to other Islamic societies), and would have to really search for that information. It has been black-holed in the news. The corporate news monopolies have also greatly emphasized things like the elections in Iraq, and have black-holed the news of Bushites writing the Iraqi constitution (to favor takeover of the Iraq economy by global corporations), and other evidences of strongarmed occupation, as well as news of the disappeared reconstruction billions; and they have downplayed the chaos and death that is rampant in Iraq now. So they get an IMPRESSION (that's all corporate news is--impressions) of: dictator gone, it's kind of rough but it's a democracy in its infancy (kind of like the Wild West), and Iraqis free to work out their own Islamic social/political structure.

It's actually rather a hard call, whether Iraqis are worse or better off TODAY. Hundreds are dying every day in tribal warfare and by our hand, and the place is a true disaster area, but is that worse than having an egomaniac dictator? Probably--but you'd have to know a lot more than relentlessly propagandized, ordinary Americans know, to make that call.

Polls like these also leave out the very critical question of: Do we have a right to be there? Did we have a right to mess with their country and force change upon them? What of the hundred thousand innocents slaughtered by our bombs in the initial invasion alone? What of the tortured?

They make it a TODAY poll. They leave out the recent past--the invasion, Abu Ghraib, massive Rumsfeld-empowered looting, and all the rest. Are they better off TODAY? And how do WE have a right to an opinion in this matter? Who are WE to be saying Iraqis are worse or better off, due to OUR horrible, blood-soaked, lying, deceitful, illegal invasion?

The absence of context, and the encouragement of forgetfulness, in polls like these, no doubt creates a certain mindset in the participants--they are led down a garden path of delusionary beliefs--and of illusions of U.S. power--that invests them with a false sense of the meaningfulness of their own views, and of the influence of their views on our fascist government (which cares not a goddamn what they think).

Still, when it comes to, "Was this war worth the cost?" Most answer no. "Will Iraqi democracy succeed?" Most answer no. "Will we be out of there any time soon?" No. Etc. On the big policy questions, Americans are overwhelmingly in disagreement with the Bush junta.

[legin]

7. Maybe a book on Propaganda needs to be read

I've been thinking for a while now about this.

Sort of to do with advertising as well.

A sort of 'Introduction to the mathematical theory of Propaganda' type thing.