I believe (I could be wrong) that many of those in DU who bad-mouth Israel

[glarius]

do so mainly because if George Bush is for Israel, they're against Israel. I believe Israel would live peaceably among her neighbours if left alone. We must take into consideration that the Jews survived a horrible history, the haulocaust, in the not too distant past, which I believe has made them so protective of their country and determined to never let it happen again. By the way, I'm not a Jew. My background is Irish-Scottish-English.
I think this applies to people who hate George Bush in other countries too, including my own, not just to DUers.
This is just my observation.


P.S...Judging from your responses here, you don't agree with me.
I did not mean to insult anyone and perhaps I was wrong in my
observation. I do agree with you all that ALL the horrible
killing should stop.

[KittyWampus]

1. Bush isn't "For Israel". Bush is for a fucked up foreign policy that uses

the state of Israel in collaboration with the Far Right party in Israel.

NeoConservatives and extreme Likud members do NOT have the best interests of their respective countries at heart.

[blm]

48. I agree with this - Bush is not FOR Israel - he's for chaos that USES

Israeli conflicts and every other regional conflict as a cover for their fascist goals.

[liberalhistorian]

51. And many neocons and fundie nutballs

are very anti-semitic in their attitudes toward Jews; they're only for Israel because of its alleged role in their evangelical beliefs.

[KittyWampus]

59. Soon as oil is gone in ME, NeoCons will drop Israel like a middle aged man

drops a pregnant teenager he's been screwing.

[Mandate My Ass]

2. Ummm no

I'm not against anybody or anything except bad decisions and unecessary harm to human beings.

[Tesha]

47. What MMA said.

> I'm not against anybody or anything except bad decisions and
> unecessary harm to human beings.

What MMA said.

There's no question in my mind that Israel is up against
implacable enemies, but Israel does seem to have a habit
of responding disproportionally (say, 10x too-great a
response) and too-generally to most offenses against it,
and in the process, killing a lot of civilians for whose
deaths they never seem very sorry.

In addition, Israel's responses seem to have the all-too-
common result of making the existing enemies even more
implacable and generating slews of new enemies to boot,
maiking these disproportionate responses seem stupid and
non-strategic along with excessively violent.

If they were *TRYING* to provoke a horrific war in the Middle
East, they could hardly be doing a better job of it. And I'm
almost certain that when they do manage to finally provoke all
out war, the state of Israel will be destroyed or greatly
diminished, along with harm coming back to a lot of Israelis,
many of whom are as relatively innocent as many of the Arabs
now dying.

It's for these reasons that I oppose Israel's current
policies, not because Bush and the rest of the PNAC gang
are using Israel for their own benefit.

Tesha

[bryant69]

3. I think it's because they've looked at the crimes of Israel

and find them unsupportable.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[LostinVA]

4. Errr.... no.... my critical thinking and values have a higher standard

than schoolyard emotions.

[MyNameGoesHere]

5. In my case you

would be wrong. I hate war pigs and those who promote it period. Thousands of years of civilization and this is the best we can do? War. Wow. The world is just full of idiots.

[izzie]

6. I think killing every day people on both sides pretty sick

--

[DemonFighterLives]

7. dubby plays a small part in the world's bad- mouthing of Israel.

A country striking another country alarms people. I heard on the radio; don't know if it's true or not; that Israel was planning to eliminate and bulldoze 20K into Lebanon as a buffer. The buffer size won't matter, but why don't they do the buffer thing on their own side.

I can't build a fence on my neighbor's property because I want a little more room. :dem:

[Little Star]

39. I wish someone would answer your very valid question!

[DemonFighterLives]

70. I forgot the question mark.

They can push everyone back twenty KM but they will find weapons to go farther.
It is the push back that causes the problem to begin with.
:hi:

[partylessinOhio]

8. Good grief! I am fully capable of separating my opinion of * and Israel.

Soon * will be gone and Israel will still have to bear the consequences of it's actions, invasions, bombings, wholesale destruction and the killing and maiming of innocent civilians.

[Ezlivin]

9. "...has made them so protective of their country..."

That could be a part of the problem. Israel exists as a country only because other people were pushed from their land. Resentment over that has never vanished.

[Recursion]

43. Yes and no

That's a big propaganda meme: but the fact is nobody was pushed from their land for the creation of Israel. Israel has bungled its responses to the wars that were launched against it, but the Arabs who were on the land when Israel was laid out by the UN got Israeli citizenship, and were not pushed from their land. The Palestinians were pushed out by Israel in their (wrong-headed) response to wars against them by their neighbors.

[liberalhistorian]

52. That is simply not true.

Palestinians and Arabs were pushed off of land so that Israelis could establish Israel; sometimes entire villages were pushed out. Somehow, that inconvenient fact usually fails to register with too many people. Guess Arab lives aren't really worth all that much.

[Clark2008]

53. Not true - despite what you've read.

I know for a fact that Palestinians were pushed from their land. My former mother-in-law was - her husband killed and she was forced to walk on foot with three small children to Jordan - and this was before the wars. This was when England was establishing Israel.

If it happened to her, I'm sure it happened to others.

[endarkenment]

10. Yeah that's it.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was confused. I thought it was about the hugely disproportionate response by the IDF and the many civilian casulties. Now I know it was just that ** is a vile idiotic asshat. Thanks again.

[Spazito]

11. Why couldn't it simply be because Israel is bombing the shit out

of Lebanon, causing the deaths of hundreds of innocent Lebanese? Couldn't it be that DUers don't see everything through the prism of bush but, instead, see Israel's actions as disproportionate. I am angry at harper who has seriously harmed Canada's ability to be an honest broker in the Middle East. Do you think I am angry at harper because of bush, that if bush wasn't in the picture and harper did and said what he has, I would not be angry with him and angry with Israel?

[JHB]

12. Out of curiosity, how old are you?

The views underlying the current dispute date back to when Chim-Chim was drinking his way through Harvard Business School, if not earlier.

[MadHound]

13. No, my opinion of various matters is not effected

By whether or not Bush is supportive of those matters or not. As the old saying goes, even a broken clock can be right twice a day(though I have yet to see that particular time with Bush).

No, my criticism of Israel is based on their actions, their blatant disregard for civilian casualties, the completely over-the-top reaction to this particular incident. Israel has negortiated the release of soldiers in similar situations before, why do they choose this time to launch a full scale invasion of Lebanon?

Now interestingly enough, I do find those who support Israel in this particular conflict could be said to supporting the furtherance of Bush's PNAC goals. For if Israel's actions drag Syria and Iran into this mess, it will provide the perfect cover for Bush to invade Syria and Iran, and thus fulfill Bushco's PNAC goals of ultimate ME hegemony.

But no, my opinions of Israels actions are in no way shaped by whether or not those actions are supported by Bushco. That is rather shallow thinking, something that I don't engage in.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. I support peaceful resolutions to problems rather than force.

I know both sides (or, more accurately, the many sides) argue that negotiations are impossible for various "good" reasons. So, they resort to violence to achieve their ends.

I see the invasion and bombing of Lebanon as one of a kind with the sledgehammer approach used as a response to Al-Queda by invading Iraq. Both brutal and self-defeating.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

15. not 100% accurate

I have often said that if you took every decision by bush, and instead did the exact opposite, our world would be a far better place today. when applied to Israel, I don't begrudge its existence, I am not against the Israeli people, and I do not blame them for every ill in the muddle east.
I do blame Bush for fanning the Israeli political structure and giving them a green light to commit war crimes and genocide (it will be nothing less, with 500,000 without power, water, food or any hope of getting them soon)

[tnlefty]

16. I didn't realize that criticizing a nation's policy was bad-mouthing.

Such discourse we have these days.

In my case you are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

Alas, I suppose that I must not criticize the policies of my own nation lest I be labeled a 'pinko commie, damned liberal, anti-American, America hater,' blah, blah, blah.

[liberalhistorian]

54. Didn't you get the memo yet?

Criticizing Israeli actions means that you support Hezbollah, Hamas, terrorists, etc., and that you're an anti-semite. Sheesh, get with the program! :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[jonnyblitz]

60. fewer people are buying into that bullshit attempt to intimidate

people into silence. there is too much info out there that refutes what they are pimping.

[liberalhistorian]

69. I really hope you're

right, Jonny, it'd be about time!

[wtmusic]

17. If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists nt

[NVMojo]

18. Ummm, wrong. I am against any country that murders to get its way ...

just because George and the Neocons are behaving in the same manner as Israel is just what it is.

[sendero]

19. Not at all....

.... my opinion of Israel was formed by their own actions long before Bush took office.

I will say this: our government's one-sided treatment of Israel is going to cost us (it already has) as a country a great deal.

I hear the folks talk about "our best ally in the Middle East" and I ask them, "what does the US get out of this relationship?"

Israel gets unconditional support, money, weapons, Tom Sawyered into doing their dirty work and we get spied on, treated like shit, we get nothing, NOTHING.

What is wrong with this picture?

[mnmoderatedem]

41. Well we do get ONE thing

At least the industrial military industrial complex does. $$$$ from sale of arms to Israel.

[sendero]

42. Yeah....

... they "buy" our weapons with money given to them by our taxpayers.

Everyone but the taxpayer is a winner.

[C_U_L8R]

20. i'm simply against war

and all sides in this fight are wrong

[kstewart33]

21. You might be right about some, but

not for others. I'm upset with Israel because almost all of those being killed in Lebanon are innocent civilians, many of whom are children.

They are obliterating Beirut because of the actions of a small minority of Lebanon.

Their actions are way over the top, and will only hurt Israel in the long run.

The only part that Bush plays in all of this is that he is letting it happen, and is even encouraging it.

[slor]

22. That is just silly...

Your observation is so wrong, that I find it difficult to even believe you suggested it.

[glarius]

24. It is not not beyond possibility that some would be against Israel for the

very reasons I mention. How many times have DUers posted things like..."did you see Bush today...he's drunk or on drugs" etc...I will have seen him and thought he was the same inarticulate, ignorant, boorish jerk as always. And then there are the people who are positive he is having an affair with Condi. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

44. I am pretty sure he and Condi may be boinking

The whole "husband" thing, body language, etc.

That's not a "conspiracy theory" at all.

Also, having a slew of alcoholics in my family makes me wonder if Bush is drinking again.

[Demit]

23. That is a CLASSIC right wing talking point, to dismiss people's views

on a topic by ascribing a pre-existing motivation for having them. You should think about why you are doing that.

Should we turn this around, this accusation of yours, and say that the only reason you are defending Israel is because you are for Bush?

What an unthinking insult your post is.

[glarius]

26. I'm sorry if you feel that way.

I didn't really mean to insult anyone. I'm just puzzled by the extreme anger against Israel. I go back and forth between anger at the killing and trying to understand why they are doing it. It's all so tragic.
Please don't call me right wing. I'm very liberal and detest the selfishness of the rightwingers and everything they stand for.

[chimpymustgo]

61. The ANGER against Israel is at its slaughter of innocents and destruction

of a sovereign nation that did not attack it.

Israel seems to be on a mad kill and destory mission. This is wrong. And that's why compassionate, peace-loving people are pissed off.

[glarius]

65. Have you forgotten the fact that Hezballah (sp?) starting firing rockets

first? It's wrong to say Israel attacked a sovereign nation that did not attack it.....ALL of the attacks should stop. On both sides.

[mtnsnake]

45. Oh stop w/the dramatics & rightwing accusations

Anyone with an open mind knows that the OP was sincere and only looking for feedback.

His or her OP was no "unthinkable insult". If anything, he or she probably hit the nail on the head in SOME instances.

[Demit]

55. If you're going to quote what I wrote, get it right.

In going back to see what you got wrong, in your haste, maybe the rereading will help you remember just how many times, in print and on talk shows, Democrats are accused of being "Bush-haters". No wondering why, no discussion of the substance, merely the name-calling, as if it is already agreed that there couldn't possibly exist any reasons why.

[mtnsnake]

56. Oh geez..."unthinking insult" or "unthinkable insult". Neither one makes

much difference on the meaning, other than I made a minor mistake on the suffix when I typed it. Yeah, ok, it should've been unthinking instead of unthinkable. I apologize for typing that suffix wrong, but the intent is still exactly the same.

Either way, there was no "unthinking insult" by the OP'er. I stand by what I said, other than the mistake on the suffix "able" instead of "ing". What drama.

[Demit]

62. The words, my friend, are different because they mean different things.

You don't have to apologize. But the words are not synonyms. Do me a favor and look them both up in the dictionary to get a full sense of the difference.

The original poster did not stop to think, or reflect, that people might have come to their views for reasons other than hating George Bush.

[mtnsnake]

63. No problem, friend

You know exactly what you meant. Sorry if I put the wrong words into the meaning of your post with my mistake on the suffix.

peace

[glarius]

66. I am the original poster and I DID NOT SAY all I said MANY of those who

are so against Israel are so because of Bush. Of course I know that many have come to this conclusion, aside from their feeling about him.

[nickinSTL]

25. I've been critical of Israel's policies for years...

long before Bush was more than a blip on the political radar.

Israel's solution to their problems is to kill people. They deny basic rights (like access to clean water) to Palestinians...then act all shocked when they fight back against the injustice.

I'm not saying the Palestinians are right to resort to violence...there's lots of wrong to go around...but Israel doesn't try to solve their problems like a supposedly "civilized" nation should.

And anyone who has the gall to criticize them is called anti-semitic.

[Lilith Velkor]

27. They couldn't possibly care about Lebanese children dying, right?

:eyes:

[TechBear_Seattle]

28. Israel's own history of atrocity and human rights violation is irrelevant?

If it is "bad-mouthing" to condemn concentration camps (excuse me, "resettlement camps") and the continuing and deliberate violation of at least four different UN Security Council resolutions regarding the Occupied Territories and the treatment of Palestinians, then I will continue to "bad-mouth" Israel.

This goes far beyond any support that Bush might give to them.

[TechBear_Seattle]

29. - Dupe -

[bloom]

30. I studied the History and Politics of the Middle East over 25 years ago.

Things haven't changed much.

The only thing that Bush* has to do with it is that he is not even pretending that there should be peace/negotiations with the Palestinians. Maybe he pretended a little bit with his "road-map" - but I didn't see a serious effort.

Plus it seems that Bush*Co WANTs aggressive wars in the area. And I think that the Iraq thing is partly part of the Israel-protection plan.

[Liberal_Dog]

31. The World Doesn't Revolve Around George W Bush

I can't think of ANY issue in which my feelings are influenced by what he thinks.

[radwriter0555]

32. I didn't agree with israel's terrorist actions against lebanon BEFORE and

I don't now, just as I've never agreed with israel's terrorist actions against the palestinians as well.

We are indeed capable of seperating issues.

[Solly Mack]

33. I no more believe Bush supports Israel or Jewish people anywhere

than I believe Bush tells the truth about anything.

Israel in and of itself holds no meaning to Bush...it's what can be gotten from the region that holds his attention. If Israel ceased being a friendly face in the ME to American and Bush family interests, heads would spin at how fast America would dump on Israel.

Bush doesn't care if Jewish people fall of the face of the earth....but it plays well with right wing fundies to look as if he gives a damn.

If you play ball with Bush then he'll help you advance your aims as long as they never conflict with his, and as long as his agenda gets the better end of the deal.

Doesn't anyone think it the least bit cowardly that Bush is using the troubles in the ME between neighboring countries to expand his war on terror?

He's using the problems of others to spread death and destruction. Bush isn't looking for peace, or to rid the world of terrorism, he's looking for an angle...an angle of advantage for American interests(and his cronies and his family's)...and I don't mean the people's interests either.

It's also cowardly for people to latch on to the war on terror to further their own goals.

It's also cowardly to hide behind the actions of others to excuse your own wrong actions.

[Peace Patriot]

34. People who badmouth Israel don't understand that we our now looking at

Plan B of the Bushite/NeoCon "Project for a New American Century": get Israel to do it.

Israel is very vulnerable and dependent on the Bush junta for funding of both defense and aggression. Its leaders have allied Israel with this insane and mind-bogglingly greedy fascist junta, that is detested by 70% of the DISENFRANCHISED American people. Israel gets blamed. That's the plan. Israel's leaders ARE responsible for what they are doing to Lebanon, and what they may do to Syria, to create conditions for the phony "Gulf of Tonkin"-type incident that will "justify" the Bush junta's assault on Iran. They should be held accountable for their war crimes, and for oppression of the Palestinians and stealing their lands. But the real instigators here are Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice. They have all the power, and have been egging Israel's kindred rightwing leadership on for several years. EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT of the American people oppose U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war. Even with Diebold/ES&S control of our election system, they can't buck that huge of an opposition--along with the opposition of Russia, China, Europe and the whole world. So they've made Israel into the tool of their PNAC goals. And the Israeli people are scared, both because of their vulnerable position in the Mideast, and probably because they sense how rickety this fascist junta is, and how alone they are. We both have bad--indeed, rotten--leaders, driven by war profiteers. We both have devious, brutal police/military forces over which we have no control. But the Israelis have an element of daily fear (real fear) that we don't suffer. So, really, I can't judge their apparent support for this assault on Lebanon. I can't blame them for it. I don't blame them for it. I think they don't have much more control over their government than we have of ours. And the endless war that they have been led into creates a constant state of panic and probably dependency (on warmongering leaders and the war machine). We are both being bled dry and bankrupted by our leaders, who, in the case of Israel, have made a bad bargain with the worst, most loathed greedbags on God's earth; people who hang out with Saudi sultans and bin Ladens; people who foster bigotry and witch-hunting; people who will abandon Israel in a minute, if they see profit to be made by doing so.

Nope, you won't see me bashing Israel for this, though I hope its leaders end up in jail (along with ours). (Actually, I don't believe in jail; I want full financial recompense and community service for Bush, Cheney & co. But that's another post.) If any criticism of Israel for attacking Lebanon is not preceded by exposure/condemnation of the Bush junta--the far more powerful party behind it all--then it is bogus criticism (has an agenda), or, at best, is superficial and ill thought out. We must not let ourselves be misled in this way. Israel is an adjunct and disposable element of the Bushites' plan. And if you don't believe me, think of it this way: If there were no Israel, and no Israeli lobby, would the Bush Cartel STILL be bent upon taking over the Mideast oil fields, and shoving its people aside, and setting up puppet goverments, and using our soldiers as cannon fodder, and bankrupting us for their greed purposes? The only reasonable answer to that question is "yes." And they would be USING whoever they could get their claws into to do it--and would be promoting and using the worst leaders they could find, the ones who use fear to manipulate vulnerable populations, and who desire billions of dollars in military aid, and who see government the way the Bushites do, as an opportunity for territorial expansion, domination and profit. If it wasn't Israel, it would be somebody else. And they would be just as expendable to the Bushites.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. Not even close.

[jollyreaper2112]

36. my perspective on Israel

I think some people fall into the anti-Bush thinking pattern. There are those who almost act like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." They forget that just because Bush wants to blow someone up, that doesn't mean the other guy still isn't an asshole. Saddam was an asshole but the United States did not previously make it a policy to kill people just because they were assholes. Likewise, just because Bush likes something, that doesn't mean it's bad. Bush likes breathing. Breathing isn't bad. (hard to find good examples, most of the things he's for really are bad!)

Here's the way my thinking's gone concerning Israel. When I was a sprout, I was a principled conservative. I believed America was on the side of the angels, we'd never started a war but we damn well finished them. The few blemishes on our history were actually signs of our character because we saw those flaws and fixed them. So when it came to Israel, here are some guys who got a raw deal throughout history. We helped them get some land in the middle east and now all those damn savage Arabs are trying to kill them. Helping Israel was one of the things that made us great, protecting a smaller country from being overrun by the Arab horde. I also saw things with the coloring of my Christian upbringing. Good, evil, things were black and white. Star Wars was a huge influence, showing me that things were colored in black and white. This was my way of thinking up until I was 12.

After I started reading the news and devouring lots of novels, sci-fi, historical, clancy technothrillers, I felt I was getting a more pragmatic view of things. Ok, the blacks and whites weren't as sharp but things were still good, right? We're still the good guys.

I can't really trace the exact moment when my thinking changed, it was kind of a gradual process. It was when I started learning the truths that they didn't tell you in church and school. The Bible, for instance. As presented, it's handed down from God. When you read about the real history, you start to see the seams of how it was put togehter. Sort of like Star Wars. As a kid, it was this perfect trilogy of movie goodness. As I got older, I saw how Lucas cribbed and stole blatantly from many places. Still enjoyable but I'm seeing the wires now, the magic is less magical. And the same goes for American history. You read about the shit this country has pulled, the lies and deceits, you feel a lot less proud, a lot more shamed.

So as far as Israel goes, I've read up on how the country was formed, the shit that was pulled during the wars, the unwillingness on all sides to just fucking get along. I don't think much of the Arab governments who fought in the wars but I don't think much of the Israelis either. It feels more like watching a segment from Cops. You see it from the cop perspective. You don't know who the two people are in the dispute, you really don't care what the story is. They're both acting like assholes and you're about ready to arrest them both on charges of disturbing the peace.

Now I know that a lot of people have dogs in this fight. My Israel, right or wrong. If some suicide bomber blew up my family, I'd probably be just as happy to kill every Arab and not give a shit about guilt or innocence. Are you Arab? You're guilty. Are you a cute little Arab kid? You're going to grow up into a suicide bomber, may as well blow you up now. But does that make this thinking right? No. I think it's part of the problem.

[sinkingfeeling]

37. No, I don't approve of Israel's 'leadership' who blatantly ignore

UN resolutions, act aggressively (pre-emptively) whenever they feel like it, have treated Palestinians like sub-humans, etc. I once supported the state of Israel in 1967, but have found their tactics unsupportable over the years. The biggest change began in 2001 with the election of Sharon.

[BooScout]

38. That's a lot to assume....

Do you think the rest of the world disagrees with Israel's tactics simply because of their opinion on Bush? FYI many rational people all across this planet thinks Israel's response has been disproportionate overkill....not just people from the States.

And while we are at it............why do you consider it 'bad mouthing' Israel? Simply because you don't agree with some opinions you put forth a dergotatory comment such as that?

Me personally? I am against the random slaughter of innocents. Whether it be Hamas, Hizbollah or Israel doing the slaughtering.

And............the Holocaust is no excuse for killing children.

[foreigncorrespondent]

40. Yep! You would be wrong! (n/t)

[leftofthedial]

46. bush is for money and those who have it

period

he hates everything he doesn't understand (which is almost everything)

[Norquist Nemesis]

49. Well, I was "bad-mouthing" Israel before Bush

I was also condemning terrorists and suicide bombers in Israel. So, yes, you'd be wrong.

[liberalhistorian]

50. Although I can understand why you might

think that that's the case, for many of us who are horrified at Israel's actions, that is simply not true. Many of us were against some Israeli actions long before Bush ever entered the WH. And that does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT mean that we support a lot of the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., or the calls from some Arab leaders for the destruction of Israel, either.

I do not believe that Israel would live peaceably if left alone. Israel HAS been left alone in the past, and has still been very aggressive towards some of its neighbors, particularly during its occupation of Gaza and the continued wanton taking of Palestinian land and water for their own use. The illegal establishment of the settlements, and the deliberate flaunting of the international laws against it, was a major contributing factor to a lot of the violence. Again, that doesn't excuse any suicide bombings and other terrorist actions against Israeli civilians, by any means. But terrorist actions against Israel do NOT excuse illegal actions by Israel itself, including targeting civilians and destroying an entire country over two captured Israeli soldiers.

And please, we are well aware of how Jews have suffered throughout history, more than any other group in history, and we remain sickened by that history as well as by continued genuine anti-semitism. But such history and suffering does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT give Israel a free pass in its actions, or justify its doing the same thing to others that was done to Jews. I'm getting really tired of that justification. And from what I know of Judaism, Talmudic law does not permit collective punishment of innocents or such vengeance-seeking, either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. Israel and her neighbors won't live peaceably...

unless those with influence help them remain peacable.

Our administration is doing exactly the opposite. They are actively provoking the terrorists on one side while simultaneously daring (and bankrolling) Israel to use a grossly disproportionate response against those with the military capacity to trigger an all-out worldwide war.

To paraphrase Bill Moyers, I am optimistic that we'll survive George Bush, but I suspect that my optimism is misplaced.

[bigtree]

58. how about addressing the actual queries rather than assessing motive?

[sandnsea]

64. Israel is more complicated

First of all, they have been very wrong in their treatment of Palestinians on varying occasions which makes it very hard to stand by them, same problem we're having with the horrors in Iraq.

But the Israeli issue has more to do with the amount of military armament we give them which gives the appearance of us fueling the ME violence. When you couple that with so many other places that our armaments have created wars, (Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Central America, etc) it's understandable that some would think it's the same with Israel. So there is that aspect.

There is the oil, and those who think Israel is just our "outpost" in the ME to keep all the powers in check to secure the oil. On the other side, are those who think Israel dictates our foreign policy completely and everything we do is for the benefit of Israel, no matter who is President.

Then there is the resistance to the idea that the ME flat hates Israel and Jews and really does want to kill them all. I don't know why people reject that when they've said it themselves and actually put it in writing, as it were, but they do.

And I've only scratched the surface of the tensions, but it isn't just kneejerk against Bush although I think a small portion may be. Bush is at fault for letting this fester for so long and really for doing absolutely nothing to draw attention to the attacks from Hezbollah in southern Lebanon these last 3+ years. It is, however, a lot of kneejerk against Israel which I think is very sad. Israel really can't just "declare peace" and have the whole thing be over.

[tomp]

67. you could hardly be more wrong.

i, and many like me, have been "bad-mouthing" israel since before w came onto the radar screen. it's got nothing to do with bush except how this particular president is playing the middle east card.

[flyarm]

68. that is rather insulting..we all know about the haulocaust..and too bad

many of us were not alive then or that the germans and jews didn't have the internet..maybe 6 million human lives and the world could have been spared that evil empire of hitler AND THE HORRIBLE DEATHS AND CONDITIONS HUMAN BEINGS WERE SUBJECTED TO!!

i do not care about little lord pissy pants other than he is either involved or part of the elimination of more human lives..WITH HIS SICK DEMENTED POLICIES AND PLANS FOR A NEW WORLD ORDER!

yes human flesh and bone lives..this little dick in our white house is involved in,in the murder of many human lives..if that is so hard for you to understand may i suggest you do a refresher course on 6 million jews who were murdered by hitler..!!

every human life is worth trying to save..not just isreali's ..but every human life..and history does repeat itself..when we allow it...when we refuse to fight for each and every human life..

a jew should understand that..


every religion should understand that..

but more important ..every human being should understand that ..and how fragile each and every human life is!

and every American regardless of race or religion or non religion..every American human being should be in the streets fighting the policies of this murderer in our white house!

ESPECIALLY JEWS!

FLY