The reason so many people are opposing Israel ?

[kentuck]

It's not because they hate George W Bush - it's becasue they do not trust him and they believe he is behind this whole sordid mess. They believe he chose the time and the manner of attack. Israel has mostly operated independently in the past, at least most people think so. However, this time, this looks like they are doing the bidding of the criminal in the White House and it appears they are playing the card for the Administration to get us into a larger conflict in the Middle East. And most folks do not approve of that. It is not anti-Semitism or any of that, in my opinion. Israel appears to be doing the dirty work of the US, and George W Bush in particular.

[Poll_Blind]

1. Israel, in my opinion, would not sacrifice a single soldier...

...to advance something other than their own interests. Ever.

PB

[kentuck]

3. Maybe so, but a lot of people do not agree with you, imo...

They believe this is all part of a larger plan and Israel is playing the card for Bush. Whether or not that is true, I beleive most people think so. Just my opinion.

[cali]

8. and you have

such an open mind.

[Poll_Blind]

13. Do you exist to do more than snipe? Provide some counter-analysis?

I know it's too much to ask but really, you shake that dowry box of yours around so much I sometimes think you're afraid to open it for fear of having to look inside.

PB

[Codeine]

28. "Counter-analysis" implies "analysis",

of which I see precious little in yor own posts.

[SammyBlue]

47. That's most nations around the world, even the beloved Europeans.

[cali]

2. and you had to start a thread on this

instead of simply responding to the ongoing thread on this exact topic?

[kentuck]

6. Obviously there is no room for another thought on the subject?

Agree or disagree with you? There is no other possibility?

[sinkingfeeling]

4. This has been said on another thread and here are the replies....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1715754

[sui generis]

5. it IS ironic

we deplore the overreaction of Israel to two kidnapped soldiers at the same time we see nothing wrong with invading Iraq for Afghanistan's bombing of the WTC.

:shrug:

No, I think the ordinary person seeing the news blurbs they do can't hear "Israel bombs Lebanon" and see all the civilian deaths while Israel refuses to mention the word "Lebanon" and only talks about Hezbollah.

The rhetoric is falling on bomb deafened ears.

[chimpymustgo]

11. Honey, where have you been? The Iraq war has been roundly denounced

here. Constantly. DU'ers are, with a few exceptions ANTI-WAR!!

[sui generis]

14. oh boy oh no gee whillickers

honey where you been? I wasn't talking about DU, as is mostly understood by people HERE.

honey where you been, making all those assumption. NO, I meant to say, honey, where have you been? Have you been on DU?

Wow.

[chimpymustgo]

21. You said "we". That sounded like DU, not Foxnews fans.

Which proves my point. Most people opposed to the Iraq war, are also opposed to Israel's war on Lebanon - and almost all wars.

[sui generis]

32. well I told you what I said

so that should clear it up. On edit.

"which proves my point" is what's under my skin now. I believe we're on the same side - why on earth else would you think I wasted the heartbeats on the original statement?

The world really is bigger than just DU. Honestly. If there's ever any doubt about "we" in a sentence, it should in fact be on DU.

[RethugAssKicker]

25. Afghanistan didn't blow up the WTC.... Supposedly AL Queda

did that

[sui generis]

34. well we went after al qaida in afghanistan

geez, but my point was . . .

I vote we all take a break and go get some coffee.

[Totallybushed]

7. I don't think Israel is

doing the bidding of GWB. They have their own interests. In this case, however, Israel's interests and GWB's have converged. Unfortunate, but it does not make Israel wrong. They were attacked by Hezbollah, and could be expected to respond.

[acmavm]

12. Oh yeah, Hebzollah attacked Israel from the air with their

fighter jets and caused God knows how many innocent civilian deaths.

[Totallybushed]

18. Sarcasm is unbecoming.

They killed 8 soldiers and are holding two hostage. israel is doing the right thing. although it is a hard thing for all concerned.

[reichstag911]

19. Little bit harder...

...for the dead innocents of Lebanon, though.

[Totallybushed]

22. And what about the

dead innocents of Israel?

[reichstag911]

55. I can't make 'em out...

...amongst the hundreds of dead Lebanese.

[Totallybushed]

57. See, how easy that

was. I'm glad that you have the courage of your convictions and can admit that dead Israelis don't mean a damn to you.

[reichstag911]

87. I'm glad...

that you have the courage of your convictions and can admit that dead Lebanese don't mean a damn to you. Also, I'm very happy that 1) I don't know anyone as flat-out dumb as you, and 2) DU has an Ignore list tailor-made for your ilk. Buh-bye!

[Lindacooks]

24. According to the Geneva convention, Israel is committing war crimes.

You think that's the 'right thing'???

[Totallybushed]

29. Actually,

it seems to be a matter of interpretation, what is "disproportionate"; what is "deliberate". etc.

So, until this is settled legally, i.e., in a trial, all you are doing is repeating someone's opinion, or offering your own.

[sui generis]

38. common human sense.

two Israeli soldiers <> 300+ Lebanese civilians

[Totallybushed]

51. So you think

you can count human beings like sacks of potatoes?

Try doing it like counting infinities. Asingle human life is infinitely precious.

[sui generis]

59. are you smoking crack?

put the pipe down and take a break amigo.

Yes, two kidnapped soldiers, presumably alive are worth less than 300 dead people.

[Totallybushed]

62. Sorry.

I disagree.

Israel is entitled to continue the attack until there soldiers are returned. They are also entitled to continue the attack until Hezbollah is disarmed.

[sui generis]

66. so what was all that horse pucky about infinite hoo haw

???

Israeli lives are infinitely more precious than Lebanese lives? You will have a hard time getting people to take sides on that.

[Totallybushed]

69. Not so.

It is simple mathematics.

for a finite number, say '1'

1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4


but

Infinity + Infinity + Infinity + Infinity DOES NOT equal 4 Infinities.

It equals Infinity.

Israel was attacked. They do not have to stop attacking when they have killed as many as they had killed. They can morally attack until the threat is gone.

[sui generis]

72. actually, I am honored

to meet an alien. Tell me about your mating ceremonies.

"They can morally attack until the threat is gone"

That is so different than how us earthlings view morality. I'm not sure if there are a lot of people who would agree with you, other than the hawks in the Israeli government who are doing this.

You keep making these bizarre assertions as if you have some Book of Ultimate Truth. Why? Obviously, your premise is not very popular or supportable, except to Israeli war hawks. Why does Israel get to say it was "attacked" when it continuously raids and attacks other countries in "police" and "retributive" actions? Why is it Israel demands sovereign recognition, yet does not recognize the borders of other sovereign states?

I am not anti Israel by any means, but this set of actions Israel has chosen saddens me because the outcome will be disaster. There were other choices to be made here that were bypassed in favor of this mindless juvenile response.

Add to that Israel was MANIPULATED by its own predictability and it just went stupidly along with it. Pride goeth . . . and that.

[Lindacooks]

43. When you start getting into semantics, you've lost the case.

And you are diminishing the meaning of the lives lost.

[Totallybushed]

52. I don't think so.

Israel is entitled to protect itself. It does not have to sit there and take it.

If Lebanon cannot control Hezbollah, Israel will have to do it for them.

[Lindacooks]

58. Nice lack of reasoning in that post.

Just keep on repeating the talking points, since you don't have any knowledge to argue with.

[Totallybushed]

64. Same to you n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. It depends on your definition of proportionality

in my definition everybody in the area has commited war crimes... all involved at different points in the conflict.

I could go back to the expulsion of Jewish Populations from Arab countries in the 1950s, you are not supposed to do that... or the terrorizing of civilians on BOTH sides of the green line...

That said, if I read the conventions strictly, you use one ambulance, whether by force or not, to transport combatants, all ambulances similarly marked are fair targets. If you use roads to transport or roll military gear, they are fair targets (Yep by definition our interstate system is a fair target in war). If you use an airport to transfer weapons, that is a fair target... and both Beirut international AND Hickam Field are fair targets... did I mention Hickam shares runways with Honolulu?

Oh and if you use cell phone towers to coordinate military actions, they are fair targets... and I could go on.

It is not as clear cut as people who have never been there think it is... and usually you have to wait for the dust to somewhat settle. Hell, during WWII, by even the definitions in effect at the time both the Germans (London blitz) and us (Dresden) engaged in mass destruction and punishment of civilian populations. Tell me exactly when Bomber Harris was tried? Oh and it was even clearer that total submarine warfare was a no-no, did I miss the trial of Admiral Nimitz or what?

[Totallybushed]

53. Exactly.

It depends on who is doing the defining. Also, who has the power to enforce their definition.

[Lindacooks]

60. Do you have anything of substance to say?

Or are you just going to keep on repeating tired platitudes?

[Totallybushed]

61. Are you?

Your contributions have been negligible

[sui generis]

74. oy vay

I know what you're sayin' sista - the duck billed platitude is alive and well in this thread

[Lindacooks]

83. Yep, sad to say.

eom

[sui generis]

41. have you confused Lebanon with Hezbollah?

In that case, India would be doing the right thing if they invaded Pakistan. Diplomacy is the right thing. This violence only begets more violence; it is most certainly NOT the right thing for a dinky little state with delusions of country-hood.

Israel is like a predictable spoiled little brat to the rest of the non-Western world. If you want to make the brat have a temper tantrum, step on his toes. Really. Anyone can do it. And everyone will, once they realize that it makes Israel vulnerable to do so.

[Totallybushed]

56. Lebanon is

responsible for controlling Hezbollah. Lebanon is responsible, under international law, for attacks originating on its territory. If they do not do so, and they havn'e been too successful at it. In fact, they haven't even tried, then Israel has the right, under international law, to protect its citizens by doing it for them.

[sui generis]

63. oh it's you again

So if China says the U.S. is responsible for harboring Falun Gong fugitives, they have a right under international law to protect themselves by invading the U.S.???

Nobody is saying Israel should not defend itself. We are saying Israel should have chosen a more mature and diplomatically sound response FIRST.

It didn't, and so there is criticism.

[Totallybushed]

65. For how many years

has Israel been trying a diplomatic solution.

58.

[sui generis]

70. it's not working

you cannot have a diplomatic solution when you are throwing people out of their homes, bulldozing neighborhoods for "settlements", roughing up your neighbors with "surgical strikes" gone wrong, and otherwise responding against civilian populations with military force.

Israel is not at all blameless. There is nobody in either Israel or hezbollah today that was part of the diplomatic process for 58 years. This is a temporal issue, initiated by people who saw an opportunity to get Israel to react this way. Israel predicably did, and it's not looking really justified, which is exactly what Hezbollah, not Lebanon, wanted.

If enough people in Lebanon are angry that Israel is killing its civilians, the entire country will be provoked and strongly anti-Israeli. Israel is STUPID. This was the dumbest possible reaction they could have had.

[Totallybushed]

71. OK,

what would be the correct response. One that does not give the hostage takers anything that they wanted. We don't want to encourage hostage takers by rewarding them. And how tro bring the murderers to justice?

Really, I await any reasonble reply.

[sui generis]

73. Why, whatever did the hostage takers want?

I am awaiting the reply. And what precisely was the date of that request?

When you say "we" though, who exactly are you referring to. Just curious.

[Totallybushed]

77. Well, 'we'

obviously means those of us siding with Israel in this crises.

What do they want? Well one thing was, or seems to be, the release of terrorists held in Israeli jails.

[sui generis]

78. and when did they find this out?

Oh that's right, after Israel started lobbing bombs. That's why I asked for the date.

This "crisis" has been magnified by Israel putting itself in a position to look bad, no matter who believes it's justified.

There are anti-Israeli extremists and zionist extremists but the saddest part is that pompous pundits always seem to think the non extremist people caught in the middle deserve what they got because one extremist side or the other had it coming.

I am horrified that some "we" people who support Israel exclusively don't appear to give a hypothetical flying bolus of excrement about the civilians being killed in the crossfire. That's moral bankruptcy, no matter which side one supports.

[Totallybushed]

79. BAck up, Buddy.

No one, no one thinks that innocent civilians have it coming.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to avoid civilian casualties, EXCEPT, give in to the other side. That would be the Hezbollah side, the Hamas side, the side that TARGETS innocent civilians as a goal, That tries to kill civilians instead of killing civilian unavoidably in attacking the terrorists who hide behind their own women's skirts.

To fail to see the difference is true moral bankruptcy.

[sui generis]

80. to only see one side is morally bankrupt

that's my point. I've made it clear I am not anti-Israeli. I hope I've also made it clear that I disagree with their policy and choices in this regard because it destroys humans and because it is stupid and exactly the response that hezbollah wanted.

If everyone agreed that Israel was doing exactly the right thing we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Lindacooks]

81. Oh, just ignore him. I have.

Some people are impervious to reason.

[Totallybushed]

85. My sentiments exactly.

You haven't said one thing that had a fact to back it.

[Totallybushed]

84. So what makes you think

that I see only one side? I just disagree with one side because I do see them as they are. (I'm not talking about the innocent civilians, OK?)

[Lindacooks]

86. LOL - it's fun to see all the ignores with their panties in a bunch.

I'll bet they're not saying anything nice!

[Totallybushed]

67. China can

say anything they want to. Is the US doing so? Are said "fugitives" firing missles into China, or sending saboteurs or suicide bomebers? If so, the yes, although that probably wouldn't be a wise decision.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Since you have forgotten

Hizbolla has been using Katyushas against Northern Israel (Civilians in case you wonder) since 2000, but I am sure you knew this. I am also sure that it is okay with you.

There are no innnocent parties in war, but if you are going to be fair, you will realize that the ones who ALWAYS suffer in war are the civilians trapped in the middle...

But hey, whatever trips your trigger. This is not just about two soldiers... but about the situation since 2000 when Israel PULLED OUT and TRIED to change the dynamic... but I'm sure you understand this.

By the way, Israel is NOT doing the bidding of the US government either.

[acmavm]

23. Israel has been pulling this shit for years. And no matter what

attempt at solving the problem has been suggested, there has always been one major roadblock. And that is the duplicity and criminality of the Israel government.

Never once has the Israeli government had any intentions of dealing honorable and fairly with the Palestinian people. It's all been a smokescreen so that they can snag all the arable land and the water for Isrealis and screw the Palestinian people.

There are no innocent parties in war? Well in this one there are a lot of innocent Lebanese caught up in this slaughter.

I feel for innocent Israelis who die as well. Only for every Israeli that gets killed or injured, Israel inflictes a disproportionate number of caualites. And they don't give a rat's ass who they kill with their 'strategic' air strikes.

And I don't think that Isreal is doing the bidding of the US government. I know that the Israeli government is every bit as grasping and greedy as the bush** administration.

[Totallybushed]

30. The Palestinians won't

seem to give up the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, i.e., the "right" of teturn.

Until they do, no solution is possible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. It takes two to tango

in other words the Israelis have done bad stuff, but so have the Palestinians, the Arab Countries and everybody else involved.

So don't give me this shit about the Israelis... everybody is playing the game... EVERYBODY.

By the way, dead is dead, whether it is Beirut or Haifa.

Now something like a truth and reconciliation commision where EVERYBODY recognizes the other and aknowledges the other might be in order... but it is not just the Israelis... but I guess, to give an example of the actions from the other side, to have a terrorist go into a kibbutz, kidnap two children and then kill them at the beach is ok... perfectly fine. I am willing to say that this is not ok, just as it is not ok to do some of the stuff the IDF has done (incursions) where people die... but then again I am willing to admit both, yes you read right BOTH sides have blood in their hands... and not to quantify which side has more or less.

The problem is... one does something, the other responds, then there is another response, then there is another response... and in the end it is the innocent who pay.

I have recomended the book repeteadly here... War a Force that Gives us Meaning, by Peter Hedges... it might break you from your habit of just blaming one side...

[RethugAssKicker]

26. Are you saying that Hezbello has been bombing

Israel since 2000, and Israel has done nothing ?

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Yes, they have been sending Katyushas downrange

since Israel pulled out. Look it up, do a google search. Israel was waiting for the central Lebenase government to disarm Hisbollah, as required by that UN resolution.

Reality is everybody has guilt in this, but the pull outs by the Israelis were their attempt, good or bad, to break the pattern.

[40ozDonkey]

9. Dim son?

Bush's M.O. is criminally stupid and negligent. While he has some very Machiavellian people working around him, those peoples interests are vested in keeping themselves in power in America during an election year. I just don't see that he has the capacity to move non-US-occupied governments to his will at this time. Afghanistan/Iraq and Iran might make a better case. Let's hope that case never gets past theoretical.

[acmejack]

10. Perhaps the internet has made the "Collateral Damage" more real

Warfare is messy and it is like a Tsunami, sweeping up all in it's path. The age of the internet, with ubiquitous connectivity, has brought these people's stories to us. We can now see for ourselves the terrible toll that the people who are not killed outright must pay.

Whoever is perceived as having caused the victim's plight is perceived negatively. In truth, I believe all combatants are held in disrepute, especially in this conflict.

[sendero]

15. Ya'll have it all backwards..

... the US is doing the dirty work of Israel, outlined in excruciating detail in PNAC.

[sgxnk]

16. this is an interesting 360

for OH so long, many in the anti-semitic and just plain conspiratorial black helicopter illuminati-masons-etc. crowd have claimed that our govt. is run by the 'zionists" etc. and israel, blah blah blah

now, you are turning this on its head and claiming that the US is running *ISRAELI* policy??!?!?!?

get real

nice 360 from the CW (conspiratorial wisdom)

not claiming you are part of the aforementioned crowd. i just find it a hilarious turn

[SidDithers]

42. A 360 is all the way around ...

until you're back to the same direction.

If you want to suggest a change to the complete opposite direction, that would be a 180.

If you're gonna be snarky, you should at least get the math right.

Sid

[sgxnk]

45. oops

my bad

i meant a 180

or a 540

or a 720...

darn math ;p

[sgxnk]

46. disregard

the 720

foot in mouth disease

make that 900

much better

[sui generis]

54. for someone with an affinity for seeing straw men everywhere

claiming that conspiracy theories are common vernacular as a basis for argument is a little . . . ironic.

Now it's getting where one can't say anything at all about Israeli public policy without being accused of being anti-semitic. The two have nothing to do with each other. Anyway, "semitic" is a cultural and geographic reference, not a religious one. I assume you were talking about judaism, and not the mix of genes and culture of the entire region.

"blah blah blah?" "get real?" nice interpersonal dynamic; but some restaurants won't let you in wearing that outfit.

[whistle]

17. Well, BushCo, the whole inside circle of the administration is creating

...the sordid mess, but only in that they take their marching orders from neoconservative power broker hawk war monger secret shadow government people who pull the strings, dictate the policies and reap the profits. George W. Bush is merely a pawn who keeps the focus off the true criminals behind all of this.

<snip>

THE SECRET SHADOW GOVERNMENT

A STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS
By Richard Boylan Ph.D. page 1 of 2

The secret "shadow" government is the large organisational network which operates alongside the officially elected and appointed government of the United States of America. Just as with the official government, the secret government has functional branches.


Just as with the official government, the Shadow Government has functional branches. However, unlike the official government, the purpose of the non-executive branches of the Shadow Government is simply to distribute various functions, but not to achieve a system of checks and balances, as was supposed to happen constitutionally between the executive, legislative and judicial branches of the U.S. Government. That is because the Shadow Government is a creature of a powerful elite, who need not fear being dominated by an instrument of their own creation.

In the Shadow Government five branches may be identified. These branches are: the Executive Branch, the Intelligence Branch, the War Department, the Weapons Industry Branch, and the Financial Department.

The reporting lines of the Intelligence Branch and the War Department to the Executive Branch are straightforward and obvious. Intelligence exists to provide the Executive Branch with sufficient necessary information to make adequately informed policy decisions. The War Department exists to provide coercive force to carry out Executive policy decisions which could meet with public resistance. The Special Operations units within the Intelligence Branch and War Department exist to carry out policy directives requiring covert action and official deniability.

The Weapons Industry Branch reports to the Executive Branch most often indirectly, through the War Department and/or the Intelligence Branch (for Black Budget weapons systems).
<more>
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/secgov.html

<also see>
http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=N0SWVF4ZNH4JGCRBAEZSFEYKEEATIIWD?type=topnews&StoryID=652315

[fordnut]

27. my sister is a repuke

my sister says everything in the news is propaganda about
George W (which I think is crap)I called her today and told
her she was a neocon and I explained her what a neocon is.now
she says she wants to be an independent even thouggh she
believes when this war is over she will be raptured out.  

[noonwitch]

31. Israel is not always right, although in this case, I support them

I don't like the way they have treated the palestineans over the past few years-the refugee camps and related issues, the wall, etc. I think that is why a lot of posters here are not on their side, that stuff combined with a dislike of war in general.

But Israel cannot sit by and let Hezbollay kidnap their soldiers and launch scuds across the border. I don't like it that it's come to this, I don't like to see innocent lebanese or israeli civilians suffer, but what are they supposed to do? I hope Condi's visit does some good, and that the lebanese are able to get hezbollah out of their country permanently.

[walldude]

36. Yes Hezbolla needs to stop kidnapping soldiers

but they are launching scuds because Israel attacked first. Israel's response to this situtation is way over the top. Neither side is in the "right" but there is something else going on here. This has nothing to do with 2 kidnapped soldiers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. They have been launching scuds

technically katyushas, since 2000. It did not start two weeks ago

[walldude]

48. True and Israel has just been sitting around letting

the Palestinians walk all over them :eyes: gimme a break. Neither side is innocent. But it seems that Israel and the US want this to escalate

[sui generis]

37. it's out of balance.

and anything out of balance for long enough is destructive.

Confusing parliamentary seats with the government of Lebanon is pathetic of Israel. The fact is they are a violent and destructive government, and that attracts violent and destructive tactics. That's why they call it a cycle. Everyone will support one side or the other more or less today or tomorrow, but it's a cycle, and it doesn't stop.

And this is doing nothing to stop the cycle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. balance in war? You've got to be shitting me

balance only exists in military simulations, not in real life.

That said, why not recognize the truth? Israel TRIED to break the cycle in 2000 when they pulled out. That said, you are right, this is only give more wind to the hawks and take a lot of arguments away from the doves.

[sui generis]

49. here's some TP hon, have a heyday

but not shitting you at all.

Be serious - oh great war analyst.

Extremists in Israel are despiccable, but not any more so than extremists in Lebanon or Gaza or Syria. Why is it we always feel pompous enough in our opinions about Israel that we overlook the little people who get killed in the crossfire.

And WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT about Israel generously trying to break the cycle when they "pulled out" of their occupation? They were losing money (and national identity) by staying there. Not some magnanimous reason of wonderful generosity.

And WAR? Oh. YOu mean like our "WAR on terror"?

Actually for all my vitriole I would rather see Israel survive. I would rather see an open economy and an evolving culture rather than cyclone wire and fear and mutual vendettas.

Here's a very plain truth very hard for the "hawks" to swallow: Whatever Israel is doing right now is exactly enough to give it what it has. Exactly. If they want something different than retributive violence, they are bloody well going to have to do something different than retributive violence.

;)

[Warren DeMontague]

82. I support Israel's right to defend themselves. But I think they've gone

WAY too far and over the top. I'm heartbroken at the reports of what has been happening to Lebanese civilians. I'm somebody who has friends and relatives in Israel- and I have no love lost for Hezbollah, I know who they are and what they aim to achieve. I think blame for this mess falls first and foremost on their shoulders.

Nevertheless I think Israel has made BIG mistakes, indiscriminately targeting civilians, striking out with blind rage that can only make more enemies than it could ever kill. I think they need to stop. Now.

[ContraBass Black]

50. Condemnation of Israel's current actions has nothing to do with Bush.

It is the assertion that Israel's attacks on Lebanon are grossly excessive.

[madeline_con]

68. No, not DUH-bya's fault entirely.

This mess did not start with this administration, nor did the WH's unfailing support for it.

[theboss]

75. I think that's a ridiculos belief

Israel has shown repeatedly in the past that it operates on its own schedule and based on its own needs. It will not respond to an attack (The Gulf War) if that serves its interests. It will launch a pre-emptive attack (Iraq 1980) if it deems it necessary. Heck, it will even butt heads with the US if it wants to.

It's certainly not going to go to war to help George W's poll numbers.

[EFerrari]

76. Yes. Or put another way, their Cons are complicit with our Cons

I don't oppose Israel. I am opposed to the disregard for human life exhibited by the government now in power, bookends to our heedless "leaders". Or, that's as clearly as I can put it.

I hope the people -- Israeli people, the people of Lebanon, throughout the Middle East AND I hope our people can find a way to mitigate the suffering they are raining down on us now and the suffering they are seeding into the future of our children and theirs. :(

[mdmc]

88. lots of folk I know feel that Isreal is too heavy handed

Nazi-like jews... Many jews for that matter....

[The Magistrate]

89. Locking

This has become a flame-war.