My God.. The Lebaneese people are being massacred !

[RethugAssKicker]

Israel is bombing the living daylights out of that city...

95 % of bridges damaged...etc..etc.. Civilians being targeted by air raids... WTF is going on!!!... IS all this necessary !!

The US refuses to call for peace.. and is openly supporting and rushing to supply more bombs for this Israel slaughter...

What the hell have we've become??

[ixion]

1. We have become fascist barbarians

it's just that some people don't know it yet. :-(

[CuteNFuzzy]

126. We're not fighting terrorists ---

we ARE the terrorists

[midnight]

129. It sure sounds like bush and his supports will go down in

HIStory as exactly that-terrorists.

[ixion]

138. When we invaded Iraq, I said this to my repub father, who

scoffed at the thought of it.

I think this is the key problem. Most people are in denial about what we've become. :-(

[morgan2]

140. some pictures of the results of the bombings

http://tinyurl.com/ejyul

aint seeing anything like this on the news go figure.

[liberalmike27]

147. Israel is our little boy

Can we expect the apple to fall far from the tree.

[tnlefty]

2. We've become America during the Bush** years.

Sad to say, how much did/does this crew care about the deaths of innocents in Afghanistan or Iraq? They don't give a damn.

[RethugAssKicker]

6. Most all Americans Rethugs and Dems support this action

and our encouragement of it!!..

This is not just Rethugs!

[tnlefty]

38. I've certainly noticed a huge shift in the attitudes in my area since

Emperor Dipshit was ascended to office. My point being that people have been propagandized and militarized into a frenzy. I don't seem to remember this misadministration being very interested in diplomacy or peace after the previous administration.

This shift in attitude happened along the way before "Most all Americans Rethugs and Dems support this action". While this disgusts me, I'm stating that the 'tude has been happening since these dipshits took office.

[rurallib]

3. And don't forget, this has been planned for a year with our blessing

[spanone]

4. We have become one nation under Bush*.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[sweetheart]

5. Summer barbecue, IDF style

Phosphorus burned bodies... regrettable indeed.

[whistle]

7. The U.S. is the Great Satan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Satan

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. How many Lebanese Americans do we have?

They'll surely vote Democratic in the next election. You'd think with all the mounting new Democratic voters, that the Republican party would be finished.

[Dover]

11. How many Democrats have you counted that don't support Israel?

People still don't get it? Most Dems support this barbaric 'foreign policy', as per its ultimate goals. Some differ on the means to that end, but they aren't speaking up.
The two party system is an illusion. The country is run by the mega-wealthy corporatists who either buy politicians off, outspend special interests via lobbying, own our media and have taken key positions within the government.

[mom cat]

We need to keep calling them, faxing them,etc.

[Ignoramus]

32. The 2004 platform declares unconditional preference for Israel

As someone posted earlier. In the 2004 platform:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/09/the_2004_democr.php

it's statement about the Middle-East is:

The Middle East. The Democratic Party is fundamentally committed to the security of our ally Israel
and the creation of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors. Our
special relationship with Israel is based on the unshakable foundation of shared values and a mutual
commitment to democracy, and we will ensure that under all circumstances, Israel retains the qualitative edge for its national security and its right to self-defense. ...

It's summary of it's policy about the middle-east is that it has a special relationship with Israel...

The entire senate voted to make a statement in support of the aggression against the Lebanese people. Almost all of the house voted the same.

Cynthia McKinney and Kucinich are opposed to slaughtering Lebanese people. John Conyers says Hezbollah must be dismantled, but that it can not be done militarily. I'm not sure what that means exactly. Certainly Hezbollah's violence needs to stop, but vowing to dismantle it is essentially asking to repeat the Iraq situation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

70. I was at a pre-trip gathering for my upcoming tour to England

and everyone there was appalled at what's happening in Lebanon.

(Of course, we're from a liberal church that has a "sister diocese" relationship with the mostly Palestinian Anglican Church in Jerusalem.)

[Mr_Spock]

56. We have family in Lebanon :(

They are Armenian, it must be awful for them. Obviously they are also Christians as most Armenians are - in fact there are lots of Christians there. So much for the Christian nation caring about others in need :(

[blonndee]

63. I am so sorry! Have you heard from them

at all?

[Mr_Spock]

124. No

But we rarely talk to them anyway. I was just wondering about them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

87. Arab Christians (& messianic Jews) are red shirts according to

the sci-fi world of RW Evangelicals waiting for the rapture. Prepare for martyrdom, suckers. They only expect *caucasian* Christians to actually *survive* and get Raptured... everyone else is expected to die nobly, pre-Tribulation, thus ensuring the "purity" of the resultant flock of 144,000 Protestants who will rule the Earth in a violent 1,000 year theocracy... sick, isn't it?

[Mr_Spock]

125. Interesting...

I know those folks are nuts. Of course we are caucasian so they may also be killing caucasian Christians in Lebanon.

[tom_paine]

99. The Busheviks have a thousand vote blocking and stuffing stratagies

both manual and electronic...

most able to be performed in broad daylight right in front of the astonished victims...

voters simply do not matter. They will always get enough to make it close enough to steal, now that the "pucker factor": is 10%+ (Dems have to win by greater than 10% in national elections to win in a "photo finish almost a tie")

[Bluerthanblue]

9. we've become hostages of our own administration.... and

I personally find it SOOOOO telling that we will rush bombs into the area,
But we wouldn't and don't rush help and humanitarian aid there.

excuse my profanity, but no other word expresses my feelings like this one-

FUCK this administration- and their culture of death, destruction and darkness.


The impotence of being just a single voice without the money or power to do anything tangible to help is driving me up the wall-

--- recommended----
sad, but so necessiary.

Death be not proud..
.. Thou art slave to Fate, Chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poyson, warre, and sicknesse dwell,
And poppie, or charmes can make us sleepe as well,
And better then thy stroake; why swell'st thou then;
One short sleepe past, wee wake eternally,
And death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.
(John Donne)

blu

[EFerrari]

10. "poyson, warre and sicknesse"

That is what we are exporting.

[Bluerthanblue]

13. all for the love

of money and power--

What a sad world eh?-

we need :grouphug: an intervention

[EFerrari]

16. Really, we do. I'm trying to get up the ovarian fortitude to post

a thread asking for pacifist/stop it now you idiots resources.

Maybe we're a little shocky. I have to believe we can do so much better than this. :cry:

[RethugAssKicker]

12. Its not just the admin... DEMS are backing Bush 100% !!!

[Bluerthanblue]

17. not this Dem- and

I know I'm not alone- the thing about the media, is that they don't simply 'report' what they call news- they make it, by using the 'medium' to influence the 'group mentality' of the sheeple-

and I'm not following the bell-wether, or the bullshitter-

[daydreamer]

18. Actually when I heard that Bush will give Lebanon aid,

I was about to puke. Let the Isrealis bomb them and then we pay for the aid. What a deal!

[EFerrari]

21. It's insane but also, Republican good business practice.

You profit off of the bombs AND the bandages. :nuke:

[bdamomma]

35. the thing the Saudis are for a ceasefire but bush isn't so instead

he sends them aid, Saudis should say no ceasefire no oil now that would be interesting huh?

[RethugAssKicker]

43. The Saudis won't say shit to their Masters.... They've been bought

a long time ago !

[wordpix2]

53. you notice "no ceasefire, no oil" isn't on the table---that's because the

Saudis and some others in the ME are hapy the Israelis are pounding the hell out of Hezbollah.

Trust me, if the Arab nations wanted to unite against Israel on this issue, they would.

[Leopolds Ghost]

88. Correction, we pay for the aid if it goes to American firms, I bet.

After all, we wouldn't want the money making its way into the hands of Terrorist Sympathizers when Halliburton and various old French Colonial good ol' boys is so much safer...

[goclark]

45. Rush bombs there and can't rescue Katrina victim here

I am furious!

[smirkymonkey]

14. This is disgusting.

Although I can see that the tensions in the middle east aren't black and white, Israel is going completely overboard and I am losing my tendency to try to see both sides of the situation. This is so wrong - the Lebanese people did nothing to deserve an attack on civilians.

[bdamomma]

40. I hate what they are doing to the Lebanese people

there is no logical reason why these people in Lebanon and in Iraq are needlessly are getting killed. Bush is a madman, he needs to be challenged.

[bigtree]

15. I've been questioning about this

Israel's strategy toward militants mirrors Bush's in Iraq and Afghanistan

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1719983

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tnlefty]

22. This is over the line a bit much, don't you think?

They are getting what they deserve?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

51. It's not genocide.

Genocide is the systematic extermination of a people. No matter how hysterical you want to be, this doesn't rise to that definition.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

89. Again, you're being hysterical.

War crime. Barbarity. Disproportionate. Collective punishment. All those phrases (while I don't agree with *all* of them) could be made applicable here. Genocide is simply not what this amounts to, and using such a term so casually makes it meaningless. It's like calling everybody you disagree with a fascist-- before long the term ceases to mean a damned thing.

[eridani]

94. You should probably change your handle to "Ward Churchill"

You know, that guy who said that Americans in the WTC were just getting what they deserved for working for a death-dealing empire.

[Codeine]

109. Perhaps you could change yours to "Cheap Personal Attack"

You know, the kind you have to engage in when you've lost the argument.

[eridani]

127. I thought it was an accurate attack, myself

Ward Churchill saying that Americans deserve to die for electing Bush and doing the daily tasks of empire maintenance is not the slightest bit different from saying that Lebanese civilians deserve to die for not getting rid of Hezbollah.

[Codeine]

133. Where the hell did I say anything of the kind?

That's really an ugly accusation. Can you back that up with a quote of any kind?

Thought not. :eyes:

[eridani]

136. If you weren't the one who said that Lebanese civilians deserve what--

--they're getting, I apologize. It damned well has been said here, though, even if not by you.

[Codeine]

137. Wasn't me.

Maybe that's what the deleted post above said? :shrug: No problem, though.

[cali]

28. That is

a despicable comment. So the children and the elderly and the many everyday people who are unconnected with H'zbollah are "getting what they deserve"? I don't know what to say to that sort of callous and inhumane type of thinking.

[Amonester]

86. Yeah. I never thought I'd see such cowardice warmongers on

DU.

On F.R., no doubt, but on DU?? :wtf:

What else should we tell them? That they should go enlist so they'd be in a position to murder these poor people who probably never did anything wrong to anyone before in their peaceful lives themselves? Or that they should go post thier non-sensitive venom on F.R.?

I'm lost for words (and there are no tears left in my eyes to cry anymore. Where have all our tears gone?).

[blonndee]

30. I would hate to think what we in the U.S. would deserve

for not kicking out the criminals in our administration who have been the authors of much more death and destruction than has Hezbollah.

So if we US citizens are massacred, would you still hold that sentiment? We're getting what we deserved?

Your cruelty and heartlessness makes me want to retch.

[theHandpuppet]

34. What a hateful comment

This doesn't even merit a rebuttal.

[RethugAssKicker]

36. Are you having a "Freeper Moment" ?

[Ignoramus]

41. You would agree with having your city bombed right?

If your government fired missles into some country, say with 4 letters, the first being 'I'?

Of course, you don't deserve to be killed because of your government's policies, or what other people do, who happen to live in the same country with you.

[burythehatchet]

44. Pathetic and ignorant is no way to go through life

[Catherine Vincent]

48. "They are getting what they deserve."

Tell that to the innocent civilians in Lebanon that died from the bombs.

[otohara]

49. They Are Getting What They Deserve

Tucker Carlson said that the other day a few times - when he said it I seriously wanted to throw-up - I expect shit like that to come from the mouth of GOP go getter like Tucker - hard see a DU'er saying the same thing. But hey, the fruit is litterally dying on the vine in Israel, time to drop some more bombs.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Let‘s go straight now to Haifa and to Tucker Carlson who is waiting to talk to us. Tucker, what is happening up there?

TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Chris, we spent most of the day north of Israel, much north of here, part of the time in a town called Matul, which is a farming community directly across, and I mean directly across from Lebanon. I accompanied apple farmers as they went through their orchards. There was literally a Hezbollah flag flying at the end of one man‘s orchard. I learned two things, quickly, one, this conflict is taking a big financial toll on northern Israel.

Ever since Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000, the country has not been to use Lebanese workers for agriculture, so they have imported workers, mainly from south east Asia and Thailand, for instance. All those workers split immediately, and many went back to Thailand. The rest went to Tel Aviv to hide out for the duration of this conflict. So, fruit is literally dying on the vine in northern Israel.

The second thing I learned this is, and I am not sure how to say this, I‘ll just be as blunt as I can, it‘s not a fair fight, not that it should be, but it‘s not. You have on the one hand Hezbollah throwing pretty sophisticated munitions southward. You have on the other hand the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, throwing a massive amount of very sophisticated hardware north. I‘m not saying that‘s a bad thing, probably a good thing. But it‘s also the truth. We watched round after round after round of enormous artillery shells flying north into southern Lebanon.

I could bore you all day with recounting the sounds of these massive concussions. I cannot imagine what southern Lebanon looks like after taking the pounding that it has been taking. Eve now as I‘m talking to you, we can hear Israeli Air Force planes going over us. We can hear the concussions 20 miles north in the hills form the bombardment. They are really taking a pounding in south Lebanon, not that they don‘t deserve it, but they are definitely taking a pounding.

MATHEWS: Thank you very much Tucker Carlson. Great reporting from over there. Tucker is back at the top of the hour, and be sure to watch Tucker again at 10:00 Eastern tonight for MSNBC‘s again a special report on the Middle East. Play HARDBALL with us again tomorrow night. We‘ll have the latest developments in the Middle East. Right now it‘s time for Tucker again.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END

.http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13970743/

[Bluerthanblue]

54. I guess you could say that about the US then too eh?... we

should have kicked out the pResident- back in 2000, but instead we gave bush a staging ground from which to destroy the world-

What would you have had Lebanon do, seriously LiberalPartisan???? And how could we have stopped this bush nightmare- ??? It's easy to look back,- and look from a safe distance and say "they should have_________" All quarterbacks are Superbowl winners on monday mornings.

They ARE NOT GETTING WHAT THEY deserve-

They are reaping the abundance of the neocon bitter harvest of death, and destruction.

And we are at a loss to stop this trainwreck that has become U.S.-

[Chulanowa]

74. Wow. Just Wow.

As you sit, safe and snug at your computer, you wave your hand and dismiss those dying as "deserving it". Why? Because htey are powerless to do what YOU want them to do.

You, and those such as yourself who actually have the power to make such demands, call for one-sided "Deals", inmpossible "Terms", and then, like yourself, say "you deserve it!" to the people killed by the bombs.

Who else deserves wholesale slaughter in your big book of "People who deserve death"?

[Leopolds Ghost]

90. Many who live deserve death

Many who die deserve life, can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in judgement.

[TripeOmatic]

122. Well, I see the responses but I see no message under #19

Dear Moderator: What good are the responses to someone like me who has no idea as to what they're responding to?

[Gregorian]

20. Meanwhile, in Iraq, the Iraqi people are being massacred!

And all we can do is sit here and look at McSmirky. You know he's in on this. Isn't there a quick way to yank these clowns out of the White House and drag them to the Hague? Then maybe the world might slowly revert back to a modicum of madness.

[RethugAssKicker]

33. And in greater numbers than ever !

This is no coincidence. This is a concerted effort between the US & Israel !

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lindacooks]

47. Interesting how you use such derogatory language.

Really proves my point.

[blonndee]

50. "Goatfucks?" Iktomiwicasa, that's about the nastiest, most racist comment

I've ever seen on DU. You should be ashamed of yourself! :puke:

[tnlefty]

52. Should be but probably won't be.

I'll join you. :puke:

[wordpix2]

55. it was nasty but Hezbollah truly wants genocide & would like nothing bette

r than to kill off every Israeli or drive them all out.

[blonndee]

57. Doesn't excuse racism and has nothing to do with the argument. nt

[eridani]

95. Which is pretty meaningless--

--since they don't have the power to do any such thing. It means about what a two-year-old means when s/he hollers "I hate you mommy and daddy and I want you to die!"

[Bluerthanblue]

59. you are a victim

of hatred, and you've become a carrier.

That is sad.

I sincerly hope you can be released.

peace,
blu

[truedelphi]

23. Peace March planned in San Fran on August 12th

That day is a Saturday. the media will not be in the numbers if we choose a workday

When will it be bad enough that we do a complete workers' strike that lasts for weeks??

[bdamomma]

46. there's a march in DC also.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tnlefty]

31. I've never voted for a bush** nor a Reagan, nor either of my 2 repug

senators, nor my repug rep. I understand that you may be upset - so am I - but not everyone in the south is a dumb bastard nor a bush voter.

[RethugAssKicker]

39. yeah,,, unfortunately the assholes far outweigh us down here !

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

37. What an egregiously

stupid remark. Do you refer to all American troops as storm troopers, as well?

[wordpix2]

58. I guess you prefer the jackbooted, goose stepping Hezbollah who want to

wipe Zionists off the face of the earth.

[Bluerthanblue]

60. yeah, it always comes down to

black and white with most folks-
You're missing quite a few colors in your spectrum.

And that limitation has given you a very narrow perspective don't you think??

Despising US funded, state sponsered mass murder of innocent civillians means we have to unconditionally support the extreem other end of the spectrum?-
And I've not seen much "jackbooted goose stepping" connected with Hezbollah-( I am not a 'fan' of their tactics) - any links to pictures that could help educate me???

[wordpix2]

61. Here are some sites with photos showing the neo-Nazi Hezbollah faithful

Also, watch MSNBC---they regularly show videos of Hezbollah goose stepping andgiving the heil Hitler salute. Just type in keywords: Hezbollah Nazi salute and you'll get a lot of photos.



http://cuanas.blogspot.com/2005/10/hezbollah-nazi-salute.html

:puke:

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/military_photos_20057210.asp



BTW---I think both parties should STOP THE WAR and sit down and talk.

Hezbollah is not popular with a number of Arab nations, not just Israel. They want to take the Mideast back to the bad old days of WWII while hiding behind women and children.

[Chico Man]

62. Tell me how is that different from this

Get over it, troops dress up in uniform and salute things.

[wordpix2]

65. uh, these Americans didn't send 6 million Jews to their deaths in WWII

[Chico Man]

66. And neither did the Hezbollah troops

A salute is worth an extermination?

[wordpix2]

69. they shouldn't be hiding behind women and children

[Chico Man]

71. If you want to continue with the apples and oranges

Here's an orange.

You could say the same about the fighters in the French Revolution or the American Revolution.

[blonndee]

72. Read this thread

and tell me if they're concerned about hitting Hezbollah, or if they're interested in collective punishment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2409402&mesg_id=2409402

[wordpix2]

78. don't think I'm not queasy over Israel's all out bombing but

it's difficult to make judgments when you're not living there.

I hate all wars and think they could be prevented by having really good diplomats in office and as diplomats. Unfortunately, you get assholes in high places and things can go from bad to worse.

[Bluerthanblue]

81. while you are getting queasy, children are being

terrorized by a 'supposedly' 'soverign, democratic' Nation. And the us says "no cease-fire"-

It's not difficult to make judgements that say this is barbaric, and has bull-llt to do with 'defending' Israel.

Assholes in high places are bad, but people in average places making excuses for them is the death-knell of this world.

[Bluerthanblue]

80. And bush and co should NOT be hiding and sacrificing

the GOOD men women and children of our National Guard, the Reserve and other forces.

Tell me, what was Jessica Lynch doing in Iraq in the first place??? or Army Spc. Lori Piestewa ? the were trained as MAINTAINCE crew- not as combat soldiers-

If bush wants this damn war so much, why doesn't he, and everyone who thinks this is such a 'good' cause get their butts out there and walk their talk-??? Why don't they fight their OWN battles for a change??? Why?
Because if those who really wanted pre-emptive war, were the ones to have to do the actual fighting, there would be far fewer wars in this world-

ALL the 'war-mongers' hide behind people who don't deserve to die for the lust of their leaders.

[MaraJade]

142. I totally agree. . .

Most of the posters here were not even alive during the VietNam war. But I WAS. My brother was
there and my mother cried every night as we watched the "Huntley-Brinkley" report and heard the
body counts. . .

The VietCong were famous for the guerilla tactic of wearing street clothes and mingling with
sympathetic villagers. From these villages (the populace of which had their favor curried by
VietCong so-called "aid", ) the VietCong would launch attacks against the South Vietnamese and the
Americans. After a sniper or other attack, the killers would simply disappear into the villages,
literally hiding behind the women and children there.

This is what Hezbollah has done.

They have curried favor with the Lebanese citizens by using Irani and Syrian petro-dollars to supply
the "aid" that the elected Lebanese government could not supply. In this way, the Hezbollah, unelected
quazi-government established a foothold in Lebanon and put their infrastructure in among the populace
whom the are actually using as human shields.

Relying upon the honor of the Israeli government, Hezbollah then felt free to rain missiles down
upon Israeli citizens in the belief that the Israeli government would not respond out of respect
for the citizens of Lebanon.

This is similar to a situation where a neighbor irresponsible allows a criminal to shoot out of their
upstairs window, raining destruction upon the neighborhood. I believe that such an irresponsible
homeowner can blame absolutly no one if the community assaults their home to drag the criminal out.
Who would reasonably blame them? The community has a right to remove a neighborhood danger,
even if the householder who allowed the danger does not agree. And if the householder or his wife
blocks or attempts to block such action, and is injured, so what? It was the irresponsible
householder who allowed the attacks on the neighborhood in the first place.

I am sorry about any "innocent" people who are caught up in this. But after hearing that thousands of
the people in the affected areas supported Hezbollah and were in favor of the attacks being launched
from their own neighborhoods, I must say that they knew that particular job was dangerous when they took it.

[Bluerthanblue]

75. yes, WE DID- in effect-

and my now deceased Dad fought in Germany in WWII, so I'm not 'dis-connected'-

WE didn't 'get involved' until Pearl Harbor- and Pearl Harbor was 'allowed' to happen in order to get us involved.... but how many Jewish, gypsy, homosexual, mentally ill, physically disabled people had already lost their lives in Auschwitz and Birkenow???

Doing NOTHING in the face of evil is doing something- it is enabling evil to reign.

[Bluerthanblue]

64. the hitler salute is given by *

quite often- Actually many 'groups' and people who have NO connection to Nazism have used it- I don't believe it necessarily belongs to 'nazi' thinking-

And the photos don't impress me. As for watching MSNBC- can't do that cause I don't have cable tv-
One thing to bear in mind about the media- they use and re-use inflammatory 'spin' at every opportunity.

After 9/11 they used the photo of bin laden kneeling down firing an AK-47 in conjunction with the burning towers so often, that one of the oldest kids in the carpool I was part of told me that bin laden had shot the towers down with at gun (he was a 10yr old)- No matter how much we discussed it, (and his parents joined me) we couldn't convince him that bin laden hadn't been in down-town NYC, wielding an automatic weapon just as the towers went down... why??? because he saw it with his own eyes on TV!!!-

The media is deceptive- especially the television media.

(And I understand that Hezbolla is not the 'salvation army')

[wordpix2]

68. and I guess 6 million Jews getting massacred in WWII was media spin, too

You know what? You need to distinguish between media spin and media reporting on what's actually going on. You have to read, watch news and documentaries and get info on the web. If you do enough of this, you can actually understand the difference.

I don't mean to be harsh, but geesh. Hezbollah is a neo-Nazi group, end of subject. Since you don't have cable, just look up the photos on the web. They have styled themselves on the Nazis.

That being said, I hope for the civilans' sake on both sides that a peace deal can be reached soon.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. I don't care if Hezbollah are demons straight from hell

What happened to the way Israel used to deal with terrorists (e.g. Entebbe, where they rescued the passengers and left) before the megalomaniac Likud party came into power?

If there are terrorist bases in Lebanon, why not COOPERATE with Lebanon in getting rid of them?

Are the Israelis TRYING to rile up the Arabs further? Does the Likud NEED enemies in the same way that the Republicans NEED the "threat" of terrorism?

By your logic ("Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to take over"), Arabs have a moral right to bomb the U.S. ("Americans allowed Bush to invade Iraq for no reason.")

This blind "Israel is always right" nonsense makes people look like "my country right or wrong" Republican militarists.

[wordpix2]

76. huh? what does this have to do with my point about media spin vs. reality

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. What does the Holocaust (which you brought up) have to do with

the fact that Israel is destroying a neighboring country, most of whose people are innocent of taking any hostile action against it?

[wordpix2]

84. if you knew the history of the land, & people, you would understand why

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. I do know the history of the land and people, thank you, and

that's why I know that this history is not one of Israeli angels and Arab devils, despite what the staunchest defenders of the current Israeli aggression against Lebanon seem to think. There were some devils on the Israeli side, too.

The Holocaust was two generations ago. This is now. Now the Israeli military is creating new enemies for Israel on a daily basis. And for what?

If Hezbollah is such a threat, COOPERATE with Lebanon in getting rid of them. Don't alienate the people you need as allies.

I've observed over the years that blind nationalism makes people stupid.

[Amonester]

91. So why would you stop wasting your time (and ours) on your...

computer and just go enlist so you could help murder these poor innocents yourself, then?

Too 'afraid,' huh? -> :blush:

[Bluerthanblue]

83. the media wasn't reporting the

reality of what was happening in Germany-
Most of the soldiers who got to Auschwitz and Birkenow, and the other death camps, were blown away by what they found there- While the truth was 'trickling' out- it wasn't out in the media in any great way.
That doesn't mean the Holocaust didn't happen, any more than the ignorance of the Armenian Holocaust that Gregorian posted about means that IT didn't exist- or the destruction of the Native American society, and the oppression and murder of countless African slaves-

You put far too much stock in the television news-

And while I may not be the most learned or literate person here- I'm probably a bottom feeder actually- I do make it a point to educate myself- and to learn as much as I can from as many reputable sources as possible.

[truedelphi]

100. Uh I have to disagree

Take an afternoon and find a library that has the old
Life Magazines. I sat down for three days once and
read three decades at once. Included in those were a Life
magazine where the journalist was documenting the Nazis
forcing a large group of captured Jews and others to
dig their own graves and then prepare to be shot.(Circa 1943)

During the war, people in the United States also knew of Nazi atrocities -
which at the time were unbelievable. If a group of resistance
fighters shot at a platoon of German soldiers, the Nazis would level
the whole town. (Sounds a bit familiar doesn't it - To
what our troops do in Iraq, and now with Israel saying it
will take out ten buildings for every one of the Hizbollah
rockets)

The concentration camps were even mentioned in the German press.
We knew they existed. But not till the war was over did we
understand that these were not mere detention camps but death camps.

But in the minds of the American people, the Nazis were barbaric
just over the way they retaliated against innocent civilians to
get revenge for something fighters had deliberately done. You do not
have to keill nine million to be considered Barbaric.

[Bluerthanblue]

102. you have to admit the knowledge was no where near

as widespread or as in-depth as what can be gleaned now.

Being 'mentioned' and a few photo's of the atrocities (as if the atrocities were an abberation) didn't give the full picture or the scope of the decimation.

By 1943, we were in it-

We were ignorant as to the extent and the depravity of the abuse of life- it isn't an excuse- it is an explanation.

[truedelphi]

108. I guess what we need to clarify

You are talking about information

I am talking about attitude. Regardless of the lack of full disclosure, The American people were terrified of the Nazis.
They were aware that the Nazis were doing something that had never happened before - attack civilians (Wait a second - Hitler had bragged that he took his war play book from Sherman's March to the Sea - don't know if he mentioned Sherman by name, but he diod refer to our Civil War.)

But in Europe, FOR MILLINEA, civilians were not to be attacked. World War I was largely fought on huge fields where armies confronted each other. Read Saint Exupery (the author of Children's Classic "Little Prince") in his book on The War. He discusses at large the de-moralization that he felt as a French fighter pilot knowing that the civilians below his plane were being targeted by the Jerries.

It had not happened before in Europe. It was inconceivable and the European community was in shock.

[On the Road]

123. Since You Mention It,

That's pretty much what Saddam Hussein is on trial for right now. Killing a whole village after his convoy was shot at.

[Marie26]

146. Hizbollah's not neo-Nazi.

Also, Israel isn't Nazis. The Nazi references keep coming up when a poster thinks that the reality just isn't bad enough. It's kind of tiresome.

[tocqueville]

130. it was popular before

The Bellamy salute is the hand gesture described by Francis Bellamy to accompany his Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States. During the period when it was used with the Pledge of Allegiance, it was sometimes known as the "flag salute." It was first demonstrated on October 12, 1892 according to Bellamy's published instructions for the "National School Celebration of Columbus Day":

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute -- right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.” At the words, “to my Flag,” the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.
(quoted from The Youth’s Companion, 65 (1892): 446–447.)
The initial military salute was soon replaced with a hand-on-heart gesture, followed by the extension of the arm as described by Bellamy. Because of the similarity of this part of the salute to the Hitler salute, the Bellamy salute was replaced in 1942 with the modern gesture of placing the hand over the heart without raising the arm.

[bdamomma]

26. number one terrorist state

[cali]

29. er, no.

That would be US. We're about a hundred times worse, both presently and historically.

[dweller]

67. but we do set the example

for all others to follow.

it will never end i think until the * reign ends.

by then, it will be with sticks and stones ... sticks for warmth, stones for shelter.

dp

[Clarkie1]

93. Who? Iran? Syria? nt

[bdamomma]

104. no it's us.

[Clarkie1]

112. Strongly disagree. nt

[earth mom]

77. That's what a lot of us have been saying around here.

While others accuse of us of being anti-semitic.

WAKE UP!!!

Innocent people are being slaughtered...you can NOT call that "a war" or "defending ones country". :grr:

[Clarkie1]

92. Israel is not targeting civilians. Only Hezbollah targets civilians. nt

[eridani]

96. They weren't targeting squat until Israel bombed Lebanon

If they were, why are people in northern Israel complaining that their bomb shelters are in poor repair since they stopped using them in 2000, right after Israel withdrew from Lebanon?

[Clarkie1]

110. Hezbollah was firing rockets at Israel before this. nt

[eridani]

128. Care to lay out the timeline?

From 1986 to 2000, they were firing rockets at northern Israel. They stopped after Israel withdrew in 2000. If they didn't, why are northern Israelis griping about the fact that their bomb shelters weren't very well maintained since 2000?

[Marie26]

131. Hezbollah's launched

missiles at Israel for a few months.

[eridani]

132. Document that

The attacks stopped after 2000. If they had continued without interruption, then why are Israelis complaining about the poor maintenance of bomb shelters since 2000?

[Marie26]

134. Is that your evidence?

Poor bomb shelter maintenence? There's been numerous border skirmishes between the IDF & Hizbollah since at least 2005. Probably not as much as during the occupation, or now, but Hizbollah has been clashing w/the IDF for awhile in Northern Israel.

These include -

Rocket attacks in May 2006 -

Israel and Militants Trade Fire Across Lebanese Border

JERUSALEM, May 28 — In a series of skirmishes across the Israeli-Lebanese border, militants fired rockets deep inside northern Israel before dawn on Sunday, and Israel delivered a sharp response, pounding militant bases in Lebanon and trading artillery fire across the frontier.

Two militants were killed in Lebanon, and combatants were wounded on both sides of the border. While shooting erupts along the border with some regularity, Sunday's clashes appeared to be one of the more intense encounters since Israel withdrew troops from southern Lebanon six years ago.
The clash began when a militant group in Lebanon fired several Katyusha rockets into northern Israel around 4 a.m. Sunday. One hit an Israeli military base on Mount Meron, several miles inside the Israeli border near the town of Safed, the Israeli military said.

The Israeli news media reported that the rockets struck deeper inside Israel than in any previous attack out of southern Lebanon. However, the Israeli military said the Katyusha rockets were the same kind that groups in Lebanon had been firing for many years. The military base was within the range of the rockets, but they have usually been directed at targets closer to the border.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/29/world/middleeast/29mideast.html?ex=1306555200&en=e5695e6f28950990&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Rocket attacks in Nov. 2005 -

"A heavy exchange of fire between Hizbollah and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) across the Blue Line took place on 21 November 2005, surpassing any activity level since Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanon in May 2000. The exchange began with heavy Hizbollah mortar and rocket fire from a number of locations against several IDF positions close to the Blue Line in the eastern sector of the UNIFIL area of operation. Simultaneously, a large group of Hizbollah fighters infiltrated Ghajar village and launched an assault on the Mayor’s office and the IDF position inside the village, south of the Blue Line, which was vacant at the time. The ensuing Israeli retaliation was heavy and included aerial bombing. The exchange of fire subsequently spread all along the Blue Line and lasted for over nine hours. Around 800 artillery, tank and mortar rounds and rockets were exchanged. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) dropped at least 30 aerial bombs."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah.htm

There's probably more too, but I'm too lazy to research every border incident between Hiz/Isreal.

[eridani]

135. This subthread is about Hezbollah attacking civilians

Your references include military targets only. "IDF positions", that is.

I'm noting a suspicious connection between late 2005 and the withdrawal of the Syrian army from Lebanon. The Syrians have no business in another country themselves, but a definite redeeming feature was that they sat on Hezbollah and prevented them from getting too provocative. And we wanted that to end why, again?

[Marie26]

139. No, the subthread

is about Hizbollah firing rockets at Israel, and they have been doing that for a while. Sometimes the rockets are aimed at military targets, sometimes not. As we've seen, Katuysha rockets aren't the most accurate weapons. Now you're changing your argument to say that Syria acted as a buffer. So Syrian occupation was a good thing? The Lebanese weren't too happy. And Syria is a known supporter of Hezbollah, & has helped funnel rockets & arms through their country to Hizbollah. Syrian occupation was probably a boon to Hizbollah. Bascially, Hizbollah has been building an army ever since Israeli troops withdrew in 2000. We can see that based on the rain of rockets, missile striking Israeli ship, & the strong fighting that's been going on in S. Lebanon. Hizbollah might've started out as a terrorist group, but they're an army now.

[eridani]

141. When Syria withdrew its army, Hezbollah was strengthened

You're right. They are an army defending their home country, which is under attack. The rocket attacks have no capacity whatsoever to "destroy" Israel, only to annoy it. And they are certainly not being fired from the area of Beirut which is now being leveled.

[Marie26]

143. They were strengthened for years

No, Hezbollah was strengthened while Syria occupied Lebanon. Do you think Hizbollah amassed this amount of weaponry in one year? They've been steadily accumulating weapons, funded by Iran & smuggled through Syria. Syria has been helping Hizbollah to gain strength, & Hizbollah benefited from the Syrian occupation. The missiles now aren't able to "destroy" Israel, but they could (and did) kill Israelis, & Hizbollah was getting more sophisticated & daring every year. At one point they were flying drone spy aircrafts into Israel - that's pretty advanced. W/full freedom in Lebanon, & Islamic funding, there's no limit to how strong Hizbollah could become. Eventually, they might've even become strong enough to overwhelm the Lebanese army & create the fundamentalist state that they really want.

Hizbollah is NOT Lebanon's army, so please don't try to pretend that they're just "defending the home country." That is the Lebanese Army's job, not a militia. When the new Lebanese democracy was formed, all the various militias pledged to turn over their weapons & join the new government. Hizbollah pledged that too, except they never did it. If they'd done so, they could've become a legitimate political party, kept the social services & actually helped the country. Instead, they kept an armed militia that destabilized the country, prevented the Lebanese army from securing the southern border, and weakened the Lebanese gov's sovereignty over its own country. Then, they provoked Israel - which is sort of like provoking a rabid bear. And Lebanon had to bear the brunt of Israeli attacks. Israel had already withdrawn from Lebanon & wanted to leave it alone. Hizbollah installed itself at the border & began steadily harassing Israel. Eventually, they had to know Israel would respond violently. Maybe that's what Hizbollah wanted. But they put innocent Lebanese in danger in the process. I think Israel's attacks are WAY overboard & way out of line, but they were foreseeable to Hizbollah, & provoked by Hizbollah.

[eridani]

144. I hardly think that coveting the water of the Litani River--

--counts as wanting to leave Lebanon alone. Syria repressed Hezbollah adventurism, which IMO is a good thing. If everyone is so hot to have the Lebanese army control and disarm Hezbollah, then why are they letting Israel bomb it?

[Marie26]

145. Assertions w/o evidence

I'd like to see some links or evidence that Syria repressed Hizbollah, when the opposite seems to be true. You initially stated that Hiz. hadn't launched missiles at Israel, but that wasn't correct. The Litani River thing that you are citing with such certainty is a theory posted on a message board - that may or may not be correct. Right now, it doesn't look like Israel is going to go all the way to the Litani River - instead they're limiting their ground attacks to villages within a few miles of the border. If they were going to occupy all the way to the Litani River, you'd think there'd be more of an aggressive, coordinated ground invasion by now. We haven't seen that yet. Instead, it seems like Israel enters a border village, gets beat by Hizbollah guerillas & then ends up retreating from the village they've supposedly "captured." IMO, Israel doesn't know what to do right now. They know how to bomb the hell out of Lebanon from the air - that's very low-risk for Israel pilots. But full-scale ground invasion is very high-risk - Hiz. knows the territory, knows guerrilla warfare & has had 6 years to get entrenched in s. Lebanon. Israel has lost 9 ground troops already & they can't even secure one small town. So now they're stymied - can't invade & can't retreat. So they start bombing more civilian targets in Lebanon out of desperation more than anything else - like maybe Hizbollah will cry "uncle" or something.

IMO, Israel has made lots of mistakes here. In theory, I can understand why the conflict began, but Israel has persued it in a way that is completely brutal & counterproductive. Bombing civilan targets like bridges & army barracks completely alienates the Lebanese people & the international community. Arab countries like Saudi Arabia were initially condemning Hizbollah - this could have isolated & cut off the group from Arab support. But thanks to the brutality of the Israeli campaign, Arabs are now rallying around Hizbollah. Lebanese civilians who were intially angry at Hizbollah for provoking Israel are now angry at Israel instead. It's so stupid & counterproductive.

[eridani]

148. The repression of Hizbollah by Syria is Juan Cole's considered opinion

For water, see http://www.mideastweb.org/water.htm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2249599.stm

10 September, 2002, 17:39 GMT 18:39 UK
Israel warns of war over water

An alleged Lebanese scheme to divert water from a river feeding Israel's largest reservoir could provoke a war, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has warned.

Israeli army radio quoted the prime minister as saying on Tuesday that the issue constituted a "casus belli", or "grounds for war".

He was addressing senior military and civilian officials after a cabinet meeting.

Lebanon opened a pumping-station on the River Hasbani in the spring of 2001 to irrigate a drought-stricken village but denies that it plans to dam the river.

The river supplies between 20 and 25% of the water flowing into the Sea of Galilee, an official at Israel's Ministry of Agriculture was quoted as saying by the French news agency AFP.

It rises in Lebanon and flows for about 50 kilometres (30 miles) through its territory before joining the River Jordan and emptying into the Sea of Galilee.

Army radio said Mr Sharon had notified the United States that Israel could mount military operations should Lebanon begin pumping water out of the Hasbani or its tributary, the River Wazzani.

The Israeli Transportation Minister, Ephraim Sneh, said Mr Sharon had called for a "good and enlightened way" to settle the issue but was ready to "act".

Lebanese workers lay water pipe

The project has drawn criticism from Israel
"If Lebanon put into effect its project to siphon water from the river, it would be serious enough a reason for Israel to act," Mr Sneh told the radio station.

[stepnw1f]

107. heh? You forgot your sarcasm tag... (nt)

[Clarkie1]

111. It's not sarcasm. nt

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

115. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1720674&mesg_id=1720674

[stepnw1f]

117. sorry....did not convince me (nt)

[allemand]

119. "Red Cross ambulances destroyed in Israeli air strike on rescue mission"

Suzanne Goldenberg in Tyre
Tuesday July 25, 2006
The Guardian

The ambulance headlamps were on, the blue light overhead was flashing, and another light illuminated the Red Cross flag when the first Israeli missile hit, shearing off the right leg of the man on the stretcher inside. As he lay screaming beneath fire and smoke, patients and ambulance workers scrambled for safety, crawling over glass in the dark. Then another missile hit the second ambulance.

Even in a war which has turned the roads of south Lebanon into killing zones, Israel's rocket strike on two clearly marked Red Cross ambulances on Sunday night set a deadly new milestone.

Six ambulance workers were wounded and three generations of the Fawaz family, being transported to hospital from Tibnin with what were originally minor injuries, were left fighting for their lives. Two ambulances were entirely destroyed, their roofs pierced by missiles.

The Lebanese Red Cross, whose ambulance service for south Lebanon is run entirely by volunteers, immediately announced it would cease all rescue missions unless Israel guaranteed their safety through the United Nations or the International Red Cross.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html

Human Rights Watch: Israeli Cluster Munitions Hit Civilians in Lebanon
Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons

BEIRUT, Lebanon - July 24 - Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

“Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “They should never be used in populated areas.”

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.

The cluster attack killed 60-year-old Maryam Ibrahim inside her home. At least two submunitions from the attack entered the basement that the Ali family was using as a shelter, wounding 12 persons, including seven children. Ahmed Ali, a 45-year-old taxi driver and head of the family, lost both legs from injuries caused by the cluster munitions. Five of his children were wounded: Mira, 16; Fatima, 12; ‘Ali, 10; Aya, 3; and `Ola, 1. His wife Akram Ibrahim, 35, and his mother-in-law `Ola Musa, 80, were also wounded. Four relatives, all German-Lebanese dual nationals sheltering with the family, were wounded as well: Mohammed Ibrahim, 45; his wife Fatima, 40; and their children ‘Ali, 16, and Rula, 13.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/0724-17.htm

[tyedyeto]

97. Doncha know... Israel is only defending itself?

on edit

2 soldiers/people being kidnapped is the green light to bomb the shit out out of another country.

[bdamomma]

103. it has alot more to do than with those 2 soldiers being held

this is all about extending and expanding the war, and Israel getting those water rights that they always wanted. We want oil and the Israelis want access to water.

[tom_paine]

98. What the hell have we become? Just one more BushPutinist State

in a world in which that is becoming the dominnt form of government.

It's the New Totalitarianism, refreshing, delicious, and now with TWICE the false democratic facade!

[zonkers]

101. Israel is not letting another missle into Lebannon and are pleased that

Hezb.keeps diminishing their missle supply at a rapid clip.

[bdamomma]

105. I find this whole thing disgusting

innocent people/children are getting killed with all the backing of our government and Israel. I am just speechless, but we will pay heavily for all this death and destruction.

[stepnw1f]

114. We Will Pay

"We the People" always do, while madmen dictate our future.

It is disgusting.

[PATRICK]

106. We've become

mindlessly consistent thanks to a mindless, heartless administration allowed to act and speak as our "leaders".

[librechik]

116. don't forget about the white phosphorous weapons

being unleashed on the Lebanese because they tolerate resistance to the establishment in their neighborhoods (as if they could do otherwise).

If only they would simply bow down to their betters and hand over their sons and daughters to the friendly detention of the Israelis... then their lives (among the ruins of their former homes)would be so much improved.

I never would have believed that we would turn out to be the bad guys in our own movie if I hadn't seen it happen myself. How can the 30% believe this shit?

[malaise]

118. Don't forget this either

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7BE824EC-6574-457D-A77D-2DD1B2EDFCCA.htm

[librechik]

120. yes--but i the whole thing is one big cluster

f**k--so I guess they have to use those too, just to make sure no one survives the final solu--err--the measured defensive response.

[malaise]

121. Apparently the new ME will be rather like

the New World bereft of its murdered indigenous people. Maybe Bushco and the Zionists really mean freedom from brown people.