New Info on Dr. Anna Pou, the doctor in trouble for Katrina actions

[knitter4democracy]

I just heard back from Rick Simmons, her lawyer, tonight. He called me back to let me know that they are in the process of getting a legal defense fund up and running. I will let everyone know when it's all set (he'll e-mail me all the details) and where to send money, which the doctor, Dr. Anna Pou, and the nurses will share to spend on the experts they're going to need.

When I told him how the medical community up here in Michigan felt, he said he wasn't suprised. He said that the medical community of Louisiana is entirely on the side of the doctor and nurses (who still have not been charged with anything) and absolutely furious.

He said that they will be putting the government on trial as well--he wants to go after everyone and anyone in charge who let that catastrophe happen. He said they will be going after FEMA and the Bush administration. You should've heard the anger in his voice.

I asked him if I could post all this here, and he was a bit shocked that DU is this big and on his side. I told him that I know a couple of medical bloggers who would want to put the info there, too, and he loved the idea. He said that they're working on a website, and that's taking awhile because they're trying to make it really secure (he's worried about Freeper hackers). They're also getting everything set to make sure that all the money would be accounted for and have a PO Box. He wants me to post that here when it's up and running.

Please keep talking about this with everyone you know--a good doctor and great nurses are in trouble because of some grandstanding idiot who wasn't there and has never been in that kind of situation or mess.

[pitohui]

1. thanks for this information and this update K&R

these women deserve our support, these accusations are ridiculous and are pretty much seen as such by most in the new orleans area

there has been no evidence in front of grand jury, no indictment, no proof, nothing...just charles foti trying to puff himself up in the news!

[knitter4democracy]

4. I can't understand this, personally.

Why go after them? Why not go after those responsible?

[smacky44]

19. Maybe they are responsible?

I choose to wait until all the evidence is in. It would not surprise me, knowing the medical system in the US (and I know it well for reasons I will not divulge)it is not difficult for me to believe that old, sick, and poor patients in nursing homes would be euthanized in such a situation, especially if the choice was between saving your own, young, vibrant life as opposed to trying to rescue terminal patients from a nursing home. It's just the way Americans value life. Fetuses first, wealthy white powerful next, wealthy everybody else,..........terminal patients in a nursing home. I would not even doubt that some family members may have been relieved to learn that their elderly, dying relative "died" in the hurricane. I am not trying to start an argument, just trying to be honest about what I see everyday in my profession.

[pitohui]

20. if there was any evidence why no grand jury? why no charges?

there doesn't appear to be any evidence, at least none that mr. foti has chosen to share with the district attorney, eddie jordan

there has been no grand jury

no indictment

no charges against these women!

yes, they were picked up and arrested...FOR NOTHING...such that puzzled police simply released them again on their own recognizance

i am confident that if mr. foti had any evidence he might have presented it to the district attorney, to a grand jury, and/or to a judge in order to get an arrest warrant against these women

instead he chose to have them "arrested" without charges and paraded about in the press

what part of "fishy" do you not get?

these were NOT memorial patients, they were patients in the nursing home attached to the hospital but separated owned, abandoned by the nursing home, a doctor who abandoned the patients is the one who started the story, to save his ass from being fried and the nursing home's ass from being fried in a lawsuit

dr. pou and the nurses would have been within their rights to abandon these patients who were NOT their patients, just as their OWN doctor did, instead they treated them for pain as they lay dying

and this is the thanks they get?

all i can say is, if you think there is ANY chance these ladies murdered these patients you haven't been paying attention!

[LostinVA]

28. I hadn't heard the accusing doctor was the patients' doctor

Hmmm... puts an even worse spin on the veracity of his accusations...

[pitohui]

68. dr king was a "contractor" at the nursing home and ran out on them

that's what they're saying around here anyway

nola.com did say outright the man spreading the stories was this dr. king

[Marie26]

45. So why do they need

A legal defense fund?

[knitter4democracy]

58. They're in limbo right now--waiting for something to happen.

Gee, I wonder when they've been in a similar situation before . . .

The attorney said that they still haven't gotten a legal defense fund going because they really thought it wasn't needed at first. The longer this limbo drags on, waiting for charges or something to happen, the more he thinks that a battle is likely.

If it happens, the state will be going at these women with everything they've got. That's why they need money--for their own experts, their own research, their own lawyer fees. If charges happen, they'll be from the state and all its resources. Three women up against that, and they don't need a legal defense fund?

[knitter4democracy]

24. They were hospital patients in the unit, not in a nursing home.

This was in a good-sized hospital with a full unit. They had gotten the other patients out, but these were patients who couldn't be moved. There was no electricity for the ventilators, IV pumps, or air conditioning. The first couple of floors were flooded, and people were breaking in to loot whatever they could. The medical staff worked round the clock for days, keeping themselves going in the hundred-plus degree heat with IV ringers, hoping for help of any kind. None came for days, and patients were suffering and not going to make it.

My hubby's an internist, and he thinks that there really wasn't any other choice for those patients if the the medical staff there felt there was no other choice. Where were the other doctors? Where were the hospital admins? Why were they all left there to die? I know things can be horrible in our crappy medical system, but I'm more likely to trust the doctor who stayed.

[knitter4democracy]

38. I'm sorry--I didn't realize they were in a step-down unit.

We have one like that at the hospital where Hubby works--it's a separate facility attached to the hospital with ill patients who are too ill to go home but don't need full hospital care. Still--it was really bad. Those patients were too ill to be moved, and their doctors weren't there. I know it would've been a hard decision for us, but I know my husband would stay with his patients in a case like that. We talked about it a lot during this whole tragedy, and we've figured out where I'll go with the kids and how he'll stay in touch.

[LostinVA]

27. Enough of the facts are in to know that what you stated didn't happen

And, the reputation and actions of these medical professionals are above reproach in this matter. People -- including the AG -- trying to portray this as some weird Annie Wilkes or Dr. Mengele thing are way off base.

These women deserve governmental kudos and medals, not this reelection circus travesty being billed to the people of NOLA.

on edit: This was a hospital which the authorities had abandoned, with no available pharmacy, no power, and days going by where the terminal patients were dying a slow, agonizing death. I would rather have a nice shot of palliative care morphine that may or may not tip me over into the Summerlands, then a slow death by torture.

Blessings upon these three women for their caring and courage.

[Marie26]

49. They were apparantly

evacuating at the time this occured. I think it at least merits an investigation.

[midnight]

75. I agree about going after those in charge.

There was no reason for this to happen. One recount of the communications being cut by the contractors was awful. I think the contractors were black water. So much needs to come out about why the dam sounded like it was blown up and why water was turned away and why the homeland security,and FEMA allowed people to drown. Let's go after those people.

[kestrel91316]

2. Thanks for the info. K & R

[EFerrari]

3. Hiya, knitter! You got it! K&R

:kick:

[countingbluecars]

5. Thanks

for keeping us informed.

[knitter4democracy]

7. I was suprised he returned my call, actually.

I'm going to get on this on another couple of sites tonight, too.

[peekaloo]

6. kick n/t

[laura888]

8. Alwasy thought the MSM version was fishy....

I am not surprised there is more to this story.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

9. Of course there is more to that story

Those people were not in 21st century America, they were completely cut off, without guidance, power, or systems we take for granted. They should not be tried as if they were.
To pretend those things all existed, is ludicrious.
Should they be tried at all? If so, with a jury from oh, say 1845 or so. Because that is about the level of technology they were facing.

[knitter4democracy]

12. If it were a jury of their medical peers, they'd never be charged.

I haven't talked with a single medical professional who thinks they did the wrong thing. It is a far better thing to die on morphine and Versed than to drown in your own fluids in temps over 100 degrees with no food, no ventilator, and no help coming for days. Those people did the right thing in a horrific situation.

[pitohui]

15. i don't think they HAVE been charged

i think they were arrested because foti was grand-standing but last i heard the DA had not charged them w. anything

the whole thing is crazy, we can't start in prosecuting doctors and nurses for giving pain medicine to dying people who are afraid and in terrible pain, it's bad enough that many doctors won't give enough pain medicine for fear of DEA hounding them


this is truly scary, if i'm in extremis, i don't want to be left screaming in pain because my doctor is afraid to give me medicine, i have to live here!

[knitter4democracy]

21. Nope. No charges yet.

Her lawyer is working on convincing the DA not to press charges. He said that they're preparing for a full court press just in case, but he's hoping the DA will see reason and let it all go.

[LostinVA]

29. I think the DA is probably realizing his little stunt backfired n /t

[knitter4democracy]

33. It wasn't the DA. It was the State Atty. General.

He has the power to arrest people, but he can't press charges unless he convinces the DA to. So far, the DA hasn't pressed charges or anything.

[LostinVA]

36. I knew that.... oi.

[LostinVA]

31. There were some DUers calling themselves medical professionals

Who slammed them for what they did. Basically, saying they were murderers and had no right to play God. I was appalled when they said that, because like you, not one medical professional I know disagreed with what the three women did. Some of these people are family members, and them come in all ages, genders, and backgrounds.

[knitter4democracy]

34. I didn't see those posts.

If I had, I would've asked them what they would've done in that same situation. My hubby was horrified when the reports came out at the time, and he said he just hoped the doctors wouldn't tell anyone what they were doing. Patients who can't be moved, who are that critically ill . . . the mind boggles.

That doctor wasn't playing God--she was being merciful. For all we know, the patients had been asking for more help. If they'd been on ventilators that had been shut off due to power loss, they would've been seriously suffering.

[LostinVA]

35. There were just a few posts by a handful of posters

I cannot imagine needing a vent, then having to be hand bagged for X amount of days... omg....

[knitter4democracy]

41. I know. That's why I wonder if they weren't trolls.

I mean, any doctor who's run a code or worked in a unit would know that what those women did was the right thing in a horrific situation.

[LostinVA]

42. I remember at least one of them being along-time poster

That's why I was surprised... of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything!

[w8liftinglady]

72. Not me-I was very supportive of them....

after being a nurse for 25 years,I can realize the hopeless situation the people found themselves in.They could have easily abandoned all these people at the get go and been demonized in retrospect as well.I respect them for trying to make those poor souls' last minutes dignified and painless.

[Marie26]

48. Eyewitness account

By a doctor who was at Memorial Hospital at the time:

"Dr. Bryant King, who has since left Memorial, was working as a contract physician at the hospital in the days after Katrina. This is what he saw in the triage area Thursday, September 1.

DR. BRYANT KING, FORMER CONTRACT PHYSICIAN AT MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: ... and realized, there were no more fanners; there were no more nurses admins -- checking blood sugars or blood pressures. They were all pushed out.

And then there were -- there were people standing at the -- the -- the ramp at the Claire (ph) garage. There were people standing over by where the morgue were -- the chapel that we were using as the morgue. There were people standing at the entranceway to where the -- the -- the emergency room led up to the second-floor area.

So, it was kind of just being blocked off. And that didn't make sense to me. It didn't make sense why would we stop what we had been doing, especially given the fact that we are evacuating patients.

GRIFFIN: Dr. King said another hospital administrator asked if he and two other remaining doctors should pray. King says, one of those doctors, Dr. Anna Pou, had a handful of syringes.

B. J. KING: This is on the second floor in the lobby. This -- and across that walkway, there's a group of patients. And Anna is standing over there with a handful of syringes.

GRIFFIN (on camera): Dr. Anna Pou.

B. J. KING: Talking to a patient. And the -- the words that I heard her say were, "I'm going to give you something to make you feel better."

And she had a handful of syringes. I don't -- and that was strange on a lot of -- on a lot of different levels. For one, we don't give medications. The nurses give medications. We almost never give medications ourselves, unless it's something critical. It's in the middle of a code or -- even in the middle of a code, the nurses give medications.

Nobody -- nobody walks around with a handful of syringes and goes and gives the same thing to each patient. That -- that's just not how we do it."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/21/acd.01.html

[knitter4democracy]

51. We weren't there, and I notice that the doctor didn't stop her.

Come on, anyone would know what she was doing. If it really were all so strange as he says, and it is, since doctors don't do the meds, why didn't he go up to her and say something? Doctors confront each other all the time if they see anything that isn't right. I know my hubby does--it's part of medicine. I know there's an old-boys' network and that not enough stuff is caught, but I also know that they're trained to confront and ask questions.

I find it odd that that's his story. If he's also their doctor, he's just as liable for what happens to them, which is another reason doctors ask questions and confront each other.

[Marie26]

54. We don't know the truth

That's the benefit of an AG investigation. There was chaos there, as everyone has stated. He might not have even thought about Pou's actions until 45 dead bodies showed up in Memorial Hospital after everyone was evacuated.

[knitter4democracy]

59. They're not charging them with that many deaths.

It's sounding like three or so--there's not enough evidence for others so far.

You're right that an investigation is needed, but I think that they're investigating the wrong people. Why would anyone leave a hospital in that situation? Why would they not be evacuated as soon as possible or if that's not possible, make sure they can withstand a couple weeks of a siege?

I can tell you that this case has opened many eyes of the medical community about just how bad the system is and just how SOL the doctors will be in case of entire system failure. The docs up here in Michigan are talking about how to ensure the hospital's safety and how to keep patients alive and not suffering.

[pitohui]

69. yes dr. king is the shit-stirrer in question

he took off while these women stayed to take care of patients

he claims to have witnessed all this, pretty funny then that he was taking off and running for the hills instead of staying behind to protect his patients

it's pretty clear what his motive is for starting these rumors if you ask me!

[Ilsa]

10. Thank you so much for taking up this cause and

reporting on it for us and keeping us "linked".

I wonder if the dr's and nurse's malpractice insurance lawyers have made their positions clear on this, or if they are waiting for the dust to settle. I wonder if the nurses have any insurance at all. I was discouraged from taking out insurance when I worked for the hospital.

[knitter4democracy]

11. The nurses are being repped by Tenet's law team.

That's what he said (I'm sorry I forgot to mention it). He said that there will be sharing of everything between the legal teams, including funds. He doesn't want anyone left in a bad situation.

[Marie26]

52. NPR report - New Orleans Hospital Staff Discussed Mercy Killings

"Angela McManus' mother had been on the LifeCare floor for two weeks before Katrina hit. Wilda Faye McManus, 78, was battling a persistent infection due to complications from rectal cancer. Angela McManus says she was given a bed next to her mother and never left her side until Tuesday, the day after the hurricane. She says nurses told her that helicopters were coming for the seventh-floor patients and that McManus needed to get to the first floor and wait for evacuation boats...

By Wednesday morning, Angela McManus learned her mother had not been evacuated as promised. She rushed back to the seventh floor and said her mother's condition had changed. "She was real lethargic," said McManus. "She would talk to me, then just doze back off. I was like, 'What's going on with her?' I was just sitting there talking to her and stroking her, and she was just sleeping and I'm like, 'Something is wrong'." McManus says nurses told her that her mother had been sedated. She grew concerned because she says her mother's pain had been manageable with Tylenol and an occasional painkiller. She stayed with her mom for hours and sang gospel hymns to comfort her. According to McManus, attempts were made to evacuate other patients from the seventh floor. She recalls seeing workers desperately trying to get one woman out of the hospital, only to see that the woman died in the process.

Angela McManus became seriously frightened for her mother when she overheard nurses saying a decision was made not to evacuate LifeCare's DNR patients. "DNR means "do not resuscitate." It does not mean do not rescue, do not take care of," McManus said. She tried to rescind her mother's DNR order to no avail. On Wednesday evening, two full days after Katrina hit, Angela McManus says three New Orleans police officers approached her with guns drawn and told her she would have to leave. New Orleans police confirm that armed officers did evacuate non-essential staff from the hospital. ...

According to eye-witness accounts, LifeCare's pharmacy director said that later that Thursday morning, he found Dr. Anna Pou in the seventh-floor medical-charting room. According to his statement, Pou and two unnamed nurses informed him that it had been decided to administer lethal doses to LifeCare patients. From the court documents, it is not clear where the instruction came from. When asked what medication was to be given, the pharmacy director told the investigator from the AG's office that Pou showed him a big pack of morphine vials. The LifeCare pharmacy director stated that, before evacuating, he saw Pou and the two nurses enter the rooms of remaining LifeCare patients.

...investigators are relying on accounts by witnesses like Angela McManus, who is still waiting for answers about how her mother died. "You know, of course I don't know what God's will is," McManus said. "I don't know when he was calling her home. If he did in fact do it, OK. But if man decided that, I want to know that. My family needs peace of mind about that." Angela McManus has retained a lawyer to investigate the circumstances of her mother's death. She wants answers."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5219917

[knitter4democracy]

61. This sounds a lot like the AP report I read earlier.

I am truly sorry that Ms. McManus lost her mother. It's a horrible thing. There is much we don't know, though. Was her mother able to be moved? They lost one in an attempt, so they should have attempted to keep moving people?

I wasn't there, and I'm not a doctor, but I know that I would trust my husband to make the right decision in that situation. I wouldn't necessarily trust all doctors in that situation, but I know that many are good and don't make those kind of decisions lightly. I'm sure it wasn't for some cheap thrill to bump off a patient but instead a careful decision based on what they knew. From what the doctor and nurses are saying, at least that much seems to be true.

[benddem]

13. This is unconscionable

they saved these patients from horrendous suffering. The patients were terminal. Please let us know when we can contribute.

[Vidar]

14. Thanks for the update.

[Hekate]

16. KnR. Please keep us posted. I'd like to send my bit to a PO box

I'm sure you told him that DU has Gulf Coast members and that DU has been involved and following in this debacle from the very beginning. My thoughts are with the doctor and nurses and their defense team.

Hekate

[pitohui]

18. it should be posted to nola.com as well

he's probably already on top of this, but the letters to the editor section published by nola.com (the online version of the new orleans newspaper) was dozens to one in favor of these women and many people were asking if they could help some kind of way

many of the people were dr. pou's or one or both of the nurse's former patients and had nothing but highest praise

no one who knows them believes that these women would just give up

[knitter4democracy]

23. Good idea!

I'll make sure to contact them after I hear more. That is a great idea.

[knitter4democracy]

22. I did tell him that.

It was funny how suprised he was, but I told him that we've done amazing things before. I told him more in the e-mail and told him both times not to hesitate to give me a call or e-mail asking for anything.

[me b zola]

17. k&r

[bloom]

25. kick

[LostinVA]

26. This is so going to backfire on the DA n/t

[KittyWampus]

39. Upthread, we learned it was the State Attorney General not DA

the DA hasn't taken evidence to Grand Jury yet... and may be smart enough not to... for the reason you cite... this would backfire.

[ComerPerro]

30. The Doctor probably realizes now that it just would have been "better"

to let them wait to die because of BushCo's incompetence and inaction.

[GoldenOldie]

32. What about those who were sent to Monroe/Armstrong Airport?

I my memory serves me correct, I recall the makeshift hospital setup at one of these airports where hurricane patients were temporarily being triaged, treated if possible and then air-evaced to medical facilities.

I well remember doing a few of these interviews with medical triage/transport personnel them saying that they were running out of space and those patients triaged that were deemed near final death, were placed within a makeshift, plastic tarped, refrigerated morgue. These people spent their final minutes/hours, alone, unmedicated and with the dead.

Wonder if this Johnny-come-lately is considering charges against those medics that worked with patients at the airport????

I have had cancer, I am old and if I had been a patient of this doctor and nurses, I know my family and I would have only a heartfelt thanks for staying and doing what was necessary.......They truly kept their oath to do no harm.

[knitter4democracy]

37. It was horrible all around.

My hubby and I had several discussions about him going down there. He was out of vacation time, though, and the practice was just swamped. There's no way the other docs would've let him go when they were that busy.

He was just sick at the reports, but he doesn't judge anyone. He says that, no matter how many codes he ran as a resident, he cannot know what it was like for those doctors and staff. They had nothing--not enough hands, not enough meds, not enough beds. They were practicing nineteenth century medicine and cannot be held to twenty-first century, top-of-the-line medicine.

[truedelphi]

46. Sorry your husband had to be frustrated

Doctors are already heroes in the long hours they work

I don't know if I could say it was nineteenth century medicine.
In the nineteenth century, you were in that century. But here and now
Everyone doing patient car in N'Orleans KNEW that there was plenty of stuff available.
The Powers that be did not want it to get there.

But so much aid was TURNED AWAY by FEMA. And the most disgustingly poor means of getting things to N'Orleans - I mean would you send trucks to an area that was flooded??
We airlifted stuff to Berlin in 1948... What did Truman have figured out that BushCo couldn't get a grasp of?

[knitter4democracy]

53. They sure didn't have what they needed.

There weren't enough meds, there weren't enough staff to help, there wasn't electricity. It was awful. You're right--they were left there to hang in the wind, and if they died, it's the doctor's fault.

[Marie26]

50. But euthanasia?

Isn't that illegal in any conditions in the US?

[knitter4democracy]

55. Not in Oregon, and not in all situations.

It depends on the patient's living will and condition at the time. It depends on what the patient has said when he or she was in his or her right mind. It really depends on the situation.

The reality is, euthanasia happens every day. Doctors only do it, though, if they're extremely sure that the patient wants it and that they're going to die very soon in a very painful and awful way. They don't want to get sued or lose their licenses, so they're very careful to make sure that it's the right thing and that the patient has asked for it.

I'm super-generalizing here. I know full well not all doctors are as good as my husband or as conscientious as he is. The reality is, though, that the bad ones are few and that the vast majority is doing the best they can in a very broken system.

If those patients could not be moved, needed vents (when there was no electricity, so that means days in, days out handbagging every single breath without enough nurses to do the job), and were suffering (pain meds are often done on IV pumps, but those take electricity, too) and drowing in their own bodies, I'm not going to attack the doctor who thought it was the right situation to end suffering.

[truedelphi]

63. People in the health field

Take an oath to do no harm. Determining exactly what that means and under what circumstances is difficult at best and under conditions like those after Katrina,
mind-bogling.

If someone is going to die in two days under terrible conditions or get just a touch or two more of morphine to ease their way to the other side today,
which would you choose for yourself if you were the patient? remember we re talking about living for two days in tremendous heat, in an area that probably stunk to high heavens. Also you are gonna be without food or water. And possibly most improtant of all, companionship.

[KittyWampus]

40. OMG, I'd forgotten about the morgue and near dead being placed in there

hugs to you, GoldenOldie. Keep on truckin' :)

[truedelphi]

43. Most excellent that you are keeping us informed

Traditionally when the government tries its citizens in a bogus and kangaroo type trial, the intense glaring light of the fool proof truth comes shimmering forward.

I was about twenty years old when the Chicago Seven were tried. They could have all copped to a minor set of charges and plea-bragained. but they took on the toughest of the charges against them and on a daily news level it was a constant scream opf speaking truth to power that the American government was wrong and that powers inside that government should be stopped.

Very good to hear that the doctor and nurses defense team understands how this can really blow up into the faces of FEMA and Georgie Boy

[Marie26]

44. Isn't this the woman

who allegedly killed patients at the Memorial Hospital in New Orleans? Her "actions" may well have been murder. I agree, put FEMA on trial, & put doctors on trial too who would do that to the patients they are supposed to care for.

[knitter4democracy]

56. *sigh*

The news reports are almost entirely from the AG's point of view, and yet, there have been no charges. These women were arrested but have not been charged, there's been no grand jury seated, and there seems to be little investigation.

Medicine deals with nasty stuff. It's not an easy job. Just ask my husband--he's an internist with a mostly older, sicker population. He ran many codes while a resident, and while he was good at it, more than half died. Doctors take death seriously, but good ones respect it and know when not to fight it anymore.

[Marie26]

60. It might be that

And it might be that the doctors in this hospital started killing off patients w/DNR orders after evacuations began, because they knew that they'd have to stay w/them, and they wanted out of that hospital. DNR is not the same thing as critically ill - it just means the patient doesn't want to be resuscitate if they die during surgery, etc. It doesn't mean to KILL them. We don't know the truth here. Medicine is nasty, but a doctor's first duty is always to care for his patient. Not to euthanize them when they've become inconvenient. The families of those patients do deserve answers.

[knitter4democracy]

62. Of course.

DNR means not to run a code. Some living wills specify further--no vent, etc. We don't and won't know what the living wills said (patient confidentiality) unless family members agree to release them.

After the horrors Dr. Anna Pou and the nurses who helped her had seen, I know that I cannot judge. I don't know what I would've done, and I am sure that it is really easy to sit back, know what we know about usual medical practices, and try to say what the right and wrong thing to do in that case would've been.

They'd been there for days with the situation deteriorating by the minute. If they couldn't evacuate those patients but were being forced to leave by the police, what was the right thing to do? I don't know. I think the real investigation needs to get off of the staff and onto why they were left in that situation to begin with.

[Marie26]

64. It depends

Except that isn't what happened. No one is saying that the police were forcing doctors to leave. Doctors had to stay w/their ill patients - thus the incentive to "euthanize" them once evacuations of healthy people began. According to some eyewitness accounts, the hospital had degraded to a kind of survival mentality after so many days, w/each man for himself. I remember this because I was so horrified at what happened. These patients were abandoned by the government, the rescue workers, and finally by the doctors who are supposed to save their lives. Euthanasia implies that the patients consented to the deaths - and that doesn't seem to be what happened here. I can judge & I will judge. No matter what the conditions, that doesn't give someone the right to take a vulnerable person's life. I don't know exactly what happened here, but there's a least the possibility that this was murder, IMO. Maybe motivated by mercy, maybe motivated by self-interest. We simply don't know. But I think it's premature to condemn any investigation as some sort of politically-motivated scapegoating. I know your heart is in the right place, though, and I agree that the responsibility ultimately rests w/the gov. that left them in those conditions. But I just felt that needed to be said.

[knitter4democracy]

66. If you're right--that they killed unwilling people--then I understand.

I'm not comfortable going there yet. I find it odd that this is the main investigation so far after Katrina when there are so many other huge problems out there.

We haven't heard the doctor's side of the story yet. Her lawyer hasn't said anything other than that she's not guilty, and she's not talking to the press. I wouldn't either, frankly. All of the reports are from family members who weren't there when it happened and one doctor who was there but did nothing and asked nothing at the time. That's not enough for me to condemn someone.

The investigation started from an attorney general up for re-election and under pressure to do something about Katrina and the messy after-effects. How is that not political? Why has the DA not pressed charges? Where is the grand jury? Is there really any investigation going on here? Is it all for show in the press only to die away quietly when they get a new story?

No, it's not okay to kill a patient. I'm personally against euthanasia, but I don't condemn the doctors who do it with the full consent of the patient. I understand why they do it, and I don't really know what I would do if I were a doctor instead of my husband.

[blonndee]

76. That doesn't make any sense at all. It's not like they killed them

ALL off so they could go home! Those medical personnel did stay and worked their butts off and did the best they could under horrible circumstances. I don't think the "healthy" patients would have been the first evacuated, either. So I'm not following your reasoning AT ALL. I hardly think the selflessness demonstrated by all their other actions indicates that anything they did was "motivated by self-interest."

[vickitulsa]

47. Couldn't this turn into a really GOOD thing? From a broader perspective,

I mean, and no doubt a legal fight would be a horrendous experience for the accused -- don't get me wrong here.

But I'm seeing a little farther ahead, to what might happen IF a court case proceeds. I'd think it would gain intense national attention and offer an opportunity most Americans may welcome to focus once again on the horrors wrought by our dear leader and his loyal followers upon victims in our own country instead of abroad.

I am exasperated to the max and utterly appalled at the swiftness with which the corporate media have abandoned all responsibility to follow up and keep us all informed of the nightmarish consequences of the Katrina non-response that are still being endured every single day and night by human beings who are our neighbors, relatives, and friends from the Gulf Coast.

I see this "photo-op" event of the opportunistic politician up for re-election as so potentially damaging TO HIM as the blowback hits the national fan, I can't help but think a court case such as this with maximum media attention, a trial where the righteous behavior of the accused can be proven because their defenders have the means to hire the best experts, could end up giving all of us the chance to put the Bu$h administration on trial for its offenses regarding Katrina!

I haven't seen any sign of that happening yet, even in other instances when outrages of the highest magnitude are involved. It's like most of the country is simply willing to FORGET it -- forget at least the details and longterm consequences to those who were abandoned when Katrina struck and remain abandoned and suffering now.

I want to see something provide a platform for bringing to the full, bright light of day just who the REAL deadly offenders were and are in the entire Katrina outrage!

If this case could do that, I'd feel a lot better -- even though I truly regret the fact that it would be yet another undeserved ordeal for the doctor and two nurses who had the courage and humanity to do the right thing. They've already been accused, wrongly but very publicly. I believe their only recourse now is to fight back so hard we end up seeing Bu$hCo put on trial by the defense team!

[knitter4democracy]

57. That's his plan.

He wants to show how everyone just left their posts and just how abandoned these medical staff were. How horrific it was and how the patients were suffering. It's going to take money for the experts, though, and the research. I'm going to send a check.

[pitohui]

70. no it can't turn into a really good thing

the best thing is for DA eddie jordan to put a stop to the nonsense and refuse to charge the women

a long drawn-out trial sends a message to doctors and nurses that they are not allowed to relieve pain, through accepted methods (morphine/versaid) no matter how terrible the circumstance or how much suffering the patient is in

i have to live here and it's already a terrible situation -- it can be terribly hard to find an oncologist to treat your pain adequately because of DEA prosecutions of doctors for prescribing what DEA considers "too much"

my friend's father screamed in pain, begging to be killed for a year before he could find a doctor willing to prescribe adequate morphine for his terminal stomach cancer -- when he was able to receive sufficient painkiller, he actually had some quality of life for a few months, the DEA would apparently rather he just died screaming in agony no matter how long it took

this isn't something that will just affect people in hurricanes, it means every one of us who dies in hospital or hospice (the majority of us) could be left in horrible untreated pain for an untold period of time

as far as i'm concerned, there can be many platforms for speaking out abt the abandonment of katrina victims

but putting medical personnel on trial means 2 things -- we who are still living here and can't get out for economic reasons will end being denied pain medicine when it's our turn to go and good medical personnel will abandon this state in droves altogether because you just can't take the risk of being thrown in jail because some law enforcement officer with NO knowledge of medicine decides to second guess you

nothing good can come of a trial, nothing -- no "photo op" is worth what will happen to us if a trial moves forward

the best thing to happen would be for eddie jordan and/or a grand jury to tell mr. foti to go to hell and leave these women the hell alone

but since sanity so seldom prevails these days, who knows what will happen, we must be prepared for the worst and to mount a strong defense

[vickitulsa]

77. Yep, you're right. I'm a chronic pain patient myself, and I've been

relying on fairly high doses of oxycodone for over five years. I have not forgotten how frightening it was when I first realized I was going to have problems at times with keeping my prescriptions coming reliably. The hoops they make you jump through are insane, even with all the medical documentation in the world and several doctors willing to prescribe.

I learned the hard way that it's smartest to get referred to a Pain Management Specialist. He's the sort of physician who is EXPECTED to be prescribing strong narcotic meds to his patients on a regular basis. It's what he DOES.

I know the fear you speak of, pitohui, of screaming in pain while doctors shy away from treating you because they fear prosecution by idiotic DEA agents who have NO business interfering in the practice of medicine. Americans have absolutely NO CLUE how bad this problem is -- until it happens to them or a family member!

But there are organizations now for people who are legitimate pain patients having problems getting proper treatment, and they can really help you. Also here's a good source of legal information on this issue:

http://www.painlaw.org/opioids.html


I found my own way to treatment, partly because my brother's been a pharmacist for 30 years and I'm knowledgeable about how to navigate the medical (mine)field. My biggest problem was the fact that I'm disabled/retired due to my pain problems after multiple surgeries and must rely only on Medicare/Medicaid for payment of medical bills!

After reading your post I am convinced you are completely right about the situation with the doctor and nurses being arrested -- but thank goodness NOT charged. I sure hope common sense and not politics prevails in this case and NO charges are EVER filed!

[lies and propaganda]

65. even if not a Louisianan..

I would be completely on the side of these doctors. i wonder if this were floods in Iowa and we left everyone to die and these doctors did the same i anyone would care.

But that would never happen now would it?

[uppityperson]

67. more publicity about the post Katrina abandonment is good.

thanks for the update. As a health care provider, I can only imagine what this was like and cannot presume to judge. Please keep posting updates.

[knitter4democracy]

74. Nothing yet.

:( I hope they'll get something up and running soon.

[hlthe2b]

71. knitter4democracy....

Several of us here were monitoring the NOLA situation throughout that weekend of the hurricane and throughout the next week. We were finding text messages regarding the situation in NOLA posted on many tiny blogs, which may still have links maintained in the archives. As one who had friends working at the hospitals, I was monitoring particularly close. All of us recognized that this crisis was coming to a head for Memorial Hospital and potentially other hospitals, given the intense heat, lack of electricity, shortage of fluids and supplies-- and no word on evacuation. I said then and I would say now that the staff would be faced with the most horrendous of decisions for the most fragile. Not one of us (to my knowlege) argued what the compassionate course would be if help was not forthcoming.

We support these health care workers--absolutely. This is a travesty.

[knitter4democracy]

73. Thank you. It sure is a travesty.

My hubby was worried about it all through the mess afterwards. He kept wondering what was going on at the hospitals, and he said to me then that he hoped the doctors wouldn't talk and tell anyone what they were going to have to do. It looks like he was right.