Posted on an Iranian blog:

[bloom]

I just thought it was interesting.... I esp. agree with "the media will say in innocence....“Why do they hate us? What have we done to them?”

... Hizbollah is the entire South Lebanon and the entire South Lebanon is Hizbollah. You can not break Hizbollah for they are indigenous. If you wish to uproot them as the despicable Zionist entity has claimed it wishes to do, it must committ genocide on the scale of 1.5 million people. And since this is their adopted goal, there is no way for them to emerge victorious.

...When Nasrallah gives his speeches, there are pictures of 2 people above his head every single time. Now your going to tell me Nasrallah is going to break away from them, when the prereq to join Hizbollah’s militia is belief in wilayat-e-faqih.

...of course Iran is involved, this was Iran’s green light. The funny thing is people here in Iran right now are taking pride that this was Iran’s doing. No apologies needed. Israel’s weapons are American supplied and financed and Hizbollah’s are Iranian supplied and financed, whats the big deal?

I will end with an excerpt from Prof AbuKhalil’s recent interview with Democracy Now:

These will have long scars. People are going to exact revenge. I mean, I know that in America we always think that Israel is the only one that is entitled to take revenge. I can guarantee you — I mean, Chris Hedges at least admitted that Hezbollah was born within the womb, so to speak, of the Israeli invasion of 1982. It didn’t exist prior to that. I guarantee you a new organization is going to be born out of the agony of the Lebanese population, and they will certainly exact revenge, against Israel, against America and against all those who supported this aggression, and when that occurs, the American population, as always, and the media will say in innocence and wonder yet again, “Why do they hate us? What have we done to them?”

http://www.iraniantruth.com/?p=195

[bloom]

1. .

[StellaBlue]

2. That Abu Khalil quote is powerful stuff

Why are people so stupid?

[madeline_con]

3. People will only take so much.

It's human nature to avenge your family.

[bloom]

4. Just like the thread

about the obnoxious sign and the autistic boy. My first reaction would be to paint over the sign. Whether it's legal or not.

Not being an impulsive person generally - I probably would not. But there would be a strong urge to even things out a bit. Somehow or another.


Reminds me of this:

"He Who Cast the First Stone Probably Didn’t"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x224239

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/opinion/24gilbert.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

[everythingsxen]

5. So, let me get this straight...

Iran caused this war, so that Israel would attack, so that way a new terrorist group would form in response to Israel's attack and :

....and when that occurs, the American population, as always, and the media will say in innocence and wonder yet again, “Why do they hate us? What have we done to them?”

And people in this thread agree with that point of view?

That would essentially be the same as me convincing your next door neighbor to murder your wife, so then you will kill your neighbor in retaliation, so that the end goal will be your neighbor's son will grow up and kill you.

Why shouldn't we bomb the hell out of Iran, exactly?

[madeline_con]

6. Not exactly...

The "new terrorist group" being discussed was Hezbollah during the Israeli occupation of Lebanon in the 80's. That's where Hezbollah cut it's eye teeth, so to speak.


"Why shouldn't we bomb the hell out of Iran, exactly?"

For the same reason the situations in Israel, Lebanon and Iraq should not be happening.

[everythingsxen]

8. That's not what he says...

These will have long scars. People are going to exact revenge. I mean, I know that in America we always think that Israel is the only one that is entitled to take revenge. I can guarantee you — I mean, Chris Hedges at least admitted that Hezbollah was born within the womb, so to speak, of the Israeli invasion of 1982. It didn’t exist prior to that. I guarantee you a new organization is going to be born out of the agony of the Lebanese population, and they will certainly exact revenge, against Israel, against America and against all those who supported this aggression, and when that occurs, the American population, as always, and the media will say in innocence and wonder yet again, “Why do they hate us? What have we done to them?”

(Bold added for emphasis)

He clearly says that Hezbollah was caused by the 1982 war and that a new one will arise out of this one.

As far as Iran goes... their publicly stated goal is the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jewish people. They are pursuing a nuclear weapons program. They are controlled by radical religious fanatics. We just sit back and let them build a nuke and lob it?

[madeline_con]

12. We're looking at 2 different paragraphs...

I was discussing the first about how Hezbollah was formed. I see what you mean. I think this new group will probably be farther reaching. At least it seems a lot more people would join the ranks after this.

If Iran could reach Israel with a missile, they'd have done it already. The missiles have to be launched from southern Lebanon to reach their targets, indicating Iran is using the best it has in this.

It's in the best interest of the entire world that Iran not get too worked up and out of control. They know very well they can be bombed into rubble and their oil riches taken. They want other people to do the fighting and dying for them, apparently, leaving them time to develop other weapons, and be fresh for the fight when it gets to their front door.

There are other countries who would see to it that all that oil was distributed to Asia and Europe, but we have an idiot American who likes to be the first to charge in. If they don't have to go to the trouble, they won't. They'll still get their share of the booty.

[bloom]

7. "Why shouldn't we bomb the hell out of Iran, exactly?"

Why shouldn't Iran bomb the hell out of Israel?

"Giving the green light" is not the same as bombing - IOW - there is no reasonable provocation involved in the fact that they are on a different side from Israel.

So there are people who are happy about a group of people standing up to an aggressor - I guess by your reasoning - any such people should be bombed?

I don't agree.

[everythingsxen]

9. A group of people standing up to an aggressor?

And by that you mean Hezbollah? Hezbollah is an Iranian creation, designed to take over Lebanon and create a new Islamic state. And yes "green-lighting" a missile attack is the same as conducting the missile attack yourself.

If I tell my best friend in the whole world (who I just bought a new set of brass knuckles) to punch you in the jaw, am I just as guilty as my friend? Or am I innocent and so is my friend because he was just "standing up to an aggressor"?

[bloom]

10. "If I tell my best friend...to punch you in the jaw"

Did I punch him first?


Have you read this yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x224239

(it does require a sign in to get the whole story)

[everythingsxen]

11. I read it...

And it really has no bearing on anything. The basic premise of his conclusions is that "Until we learn to stop trusting everything our brains tell us about others — and to start trusting others themselves — there will continue to be tears and recriminations in the wayback."

Which is a fine and noble ideal. However, what if I really want to murder, but I lie to you and say I want peace, then I kill you when you turn your back. Let's say I have tried this before. Would you still fall for it?

The basic problem is that it is going to be impossible to convince the various retaliating sides that the others are really out for peace.

Especially when one of those sides is Israel (motto: Never again) and the other side is Iran (motto: Kill the Jews)

[bloom]

13. I saw Condalezza Rice saying

that they plan to remake the Middle East to be how they want it to be.

Her words may be less violent sounding than what comes out of that Iranian guy's mouth - but to the people of the Middle East - with Israel demolishing Lebanon, the US demolishing Iraq - I expect it sounds to them like the US/Israel plans to wipe them off the map - and replace them with something else.

If they talk tough - I don't blame them. If they support the resistance of Hezbolla - I don't blame them.

Look who actually has the nukes, look at who is using the laser weapons, the white phosphorus.

If I am going to judge who is the bad guys - I'm not going by who talks more harshly or more civilly. I'm judging the actions. The Israelis and the US are by far the most violent and destructive. There is no question.

So Hezbolla puts up resistance. It's ridiculous to think that people wouldn't.


The point of the article is how people see their side more favorably and actions of the other side more negatively. Even when their side is more destructive. And the author seemed to be assuming that each side was more equal. The military capabilities of the US/Israel and Hezbolla/Hamas are vastly different. To ignore that fact is the to ignore reality.

"The problem with the principle of even-numberedness is that people count differently. Every action has a cause and a consequence: something that led to it and something that followed from it. But research shows that while people think of their own actions as the consequences of what came before, they think of other people’s actions as the causes of what came later."

...He also says, "Research teaches us that our reasons and our pains are more palpable, more obvious and real, than are the reasons and pains of others. This leads to the escalation of mutual harm, to the illusion that others are solely responsible for it and to the belief that our actions are justifiable responses to theirs."

[malaise]

14. That is precisely what they plan to do

They have done that to every indigenous people on the planet. This time however the people will fight back and cannot be bought for trinkets or alcohol.

[Recursion]

16. Remind me what this "laser weapon" thing is again?

This is the second thread I've seen it mentioned in.

[eridani]

19. Hezbollah is an Israeli creation

It would not have existed but for Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, during which Israel slaughtered 20,000 Lebanese.

[smoogatz]

17. Because Iran isn't Iraq, and they'd retaliate.

There are a number of things they could do, all of which would be problematic, to put it mildly--including sending waves of Iranian soldiers into Iraq to overwhelm US troops, deploying thousands of small, bomb-laden craft into the Persian Gulf to attack US warships and oil tankers, and activating Hezbollah sleeper cells in the US, which would then carry out terrorist attacks against civilian targets. You should read Sy hersh's piece on this subject in last week's New Yorker. Hersh also points out that almost no one in the military thinks bombing Iran without putting troops on the ground would succeed in destroying their nuclear program.

[EVDebs]

15. So, Israel or the US should just block the Strait of Hormuz NOW

since we're essentially paying for the weapons that will eventually attack us (via our gas purchases)...?

[Clarkie1]

18. This is another reason why Hizbollah must be destroyed.

They must no longer be "South Lebanon," and they must be expelled from the Lebanese governement and tried as criminals.