Hezbollah has already won

[berni_mccoy]

Just like the Bush Administration played into the hands of Al Qaeda by invading Iraq, so too is Hezbollah using the Israeli government to attack the civilian population of Lebanon. What will killing innocent civilians of Lebanon accomplish? It will help Hezbollah, not hurt them. Now that Hezbollah has caused Israel to go on a rampage, they have evaporated like smoke. Sure, in the short term, Israel will seem to march on through Lebanon and put an end to the attacks. And then, out of the air, an insurgency will begin and Israel will end up occupying Lebanon much the same way the U.S. is stuck in Iraq. Lebanon will not be able to re-establish its independent gov't and that is the only way to solve this problem. The solution isn't killing more and more civilians, creating more and more terrorists. It's getting the Arab governments to work with Israel to get rid of the terrorists. Both the U.S. and Israel are following misguided policies that will never work to achieve peace. The policies being used by these governments will set up the world for endless war. And that is just what the terrorists want.

[Catherine Vincent]

1. That's a good thought.

I have a question... We keep hearing all the bombs landing in southern Lebanon from Israel but is Hezzbollah retaliating and firing their bombs back at Israel?

[Kagemusha]

5. In much smaller numbers, yes.

I don't know how you're not hearing about them, but I am. They kill and hurt a few people here and there. The numbers are small compared to the Lebanese killed, and the amount of property damage is vastly smaller.

[Lindacooks]

6. Hezbollah is launching pretty primitive rockets.

And they do not launch at all at night, which means they do not have the sophisticated weaponry Israel's army has.

The bombs dropping in Lebanon are doing hundreds of times the damage that the rockets are doing in Israel, and killing AT LEAST ten times as many people.

Not to mention that Israel is using cluster bombs, again against the Geneva Convention, overreacting with a disproportionate response, and is, some claim, using phosphorus, which is a chemical weapon, again, against the Geneva Convention.

[Catherine Vincent]

17. Thanks, you two, for the response.

[jsamuel]

19. not to mention one is a terrorist org. and the other is a nation

what do we expect from each?

[mike_c]

46. if you think that "terrorist org." succinctly describes Hezbollah then...

...you've been watching too much American television. Hezbollah is many things (as is Hamas, for that matter), including an armed resistance wing that fought the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon and which has continued its fight against Israeli aggression. Remember, the soldiers captured at the border were engaged in hostilities against Hezbollah, and they were captured specifically to exchange for some of the thousands of Hezbollah members who are held in Israeli prisons. Such prisoner exchanges have been conducted in the past, without all of this bloodshed and destruction. There was no reason for Israel to escalate this episode beyond some saber rattling and honest negotiation for swapping prisoners. Had they done that, those Israeli soldiers would likely be free today, or at least on their way to being free, along with a few hundred Lebanese who were similarly "kidnapped" by Israel.

[Codeine]

32. Phosphorus isn't a chemical weapon.

I already explained that to you once -- it's not covered under the chemical weapons rule and never has been. Cluster bombs aren't covered by any specific instrument of international law either, though they should be and almost certainly will be soon.

[Recursion]

33. WP is a chemical weapon now?

It's an incindiery device, not a chemical weapon.

If we call WP a chemical weapon, then we're saying Saddam had chemical weapons. And I don't think we want to say that.

[BillZBubb]

2. Israel is easy to dupe. They always mindlessly overreact.

Then their apologists mindlessly blather on about how justified they are. Meanwhile Israel creates more and more enemies--enemies who have VERY LONG memories. Israel has followed the thuggish brutality path for half a century and it has gotten them to this.

[USA_1]

8. the way to peace ...

http://www.stop-us-military-aid-to-israel.net/

[INDIA]

20. Oh yeah...

Take away Israel's weapons and the ME will turn into a big friggin peace party. "...the way to peace" Oh brother...:eyes:

I'm sure that Hamas and Hezbolla won't be emboldened by an Israel with a weaker military.:sarcasm:

[BillZBubb]

24. Your comment is absurd.

No one said take away all of Israel's weapons--just the ones WE PAY FOR.

An Israel with less of an advantage over its adversaries might just WORK to find better solutions than just blowing away innocent people to get at the minority who are fighting them. Israel right now is a bully and a thug because the US buys them the tools.

[INDIA]

27. Israel's " advantage over its adversaries "...

is the only reason they still exist. THREE WARS, (in which they were grossly outnumbered) they have been forced to fight. Without American weapons, Saddam would have been nuclear and the entire nation of Israel could have been wiped out. All they want to do is EXIST. They aren't on some US funded imperialistic land grab.

To be fair, I can't agree with some of the attacks on Lebanon in the last week, but stopping military support is not the answer. Using weapons and aid as a diplomatic bargaining chip would be a better move IMO to ensure that Israeli military action is in accordance with international standards.

[mike_c]

47. "They (Isreal) aren't on some US funded imperialistic land grab."

Tell that to the Palestinians. You know, the ones reduced to living as refuges for generations in camps in Gaza and the West Bank because Israelis took their land, either by terror or by direct force. Tell that to the Palestinians killed by the IDF for the crime of treading on "Israeli only" roads between "settlements" or to those whose land was taken for settlement in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions. Tell it to the olive pickers killed for apparent sport by Israeli settlers. Tell it to the women weeping when the bulldozers-- built by U.S. manufacturer Caterpillar and purchased with U.S. taxpayer "aid packages"-- come to demolish their homes as collective punishment.

[AngryOldDem]

3. A question

<<It's getting the Arab governments to work with Israel to get rid of the terrorists.<<

It's clear that support for Hezbollah in this matter is pretty lukewarm throughout most of the Arab world. However, do Arab governments truly recognize that such rogue organizations are just as much a threat to them, as these groups are to Israel? IOW, can the Arab governments and Israel ever get on the same page on this issue?

Good post, by the way.

[berni_mccoy]

4. If they want peace, then it is necessary

Otherwise, they choose conflict.

How do they ever get on the same page? When they are finally tired of the death and destruction that results from failed policy.

[BillZBubb]

14. I think you make an error saying roque organizations are

just as much threat to Arab governments. Actually it's just the opposite because they provide an outlet for frustration. As long as they keep people's anger focused on Israel, it is not on the Arab governments themselves.

Israel foolishly aids them by overreacting at every opportunity.

As for the lukewarm Arab support of Hezbollah, that's misleading. Hezbollah is a Shiite group, so it's natural allies are in Iraq and Iran. The other Muslim countries won't bend over backwards to help Hezbollah when doing so might indirectly be helping Iran. The Arab countries are plenty pissed about what Israel is doing to Lebanon.

Arab governments and Israel can get on the same page as soon as Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders and treats the Palestinians with justice. Until then, forget about it.

[cali]

37. Good assessment

but Israel can't just unilaterally withdraw to the '67 borders. It has to be done within the context of talks and agreements.

[oberliner]

7. Arab governments

I'd like to hear some ideas about how to get the Arab governments to work with Israel to get rid of the terrorists.

[mike_c]

48. first, stop parroting the propaganda stereotyping them as "terrorists...."

Just an idea....

[leftofthedial]

9. all Israel has accomplished

is ensuring that they will continue to be hated for at least another generation


all that "bipolar" American peace efforts have ever accomplished

is to ensure that another generation survives to do the hating

[jerry611]

10. And your solution would be?

I'm serious here... what is your solution to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis?

[leftofthedial]

11. you don't want to hear it

trust me.

[jerry611]

13. What? Surrender? Israel should leave?

I guess we should just give up every piece of land on the planet to anyone who is willing to strap a bomb to their chest...
All in the name of peace, right?

[leftofthedial]

21. nope

I think the US should immediately copiously arm Israel, Syria, Hezbollah, Lebanon and Hamas with short-range nukes. Gotta be some good money in that.

When the glass cools in a few millenia, perhaps tempers in the region will have cooled as well.

It is inevitable that more and more of the parties will get such weapons anyway. Let's just get it over with instead of letting the chaos bleed the planet dry and provide fascists and theofascists around the world with ongoing motivation for their masses of followers.

Seriously, violence and insane religious and ethnic hatred in that region goes back longer than recorded history. There are no good guys. All sides have commited atrocities and inconcievable violence. Nothing that the best statesmen in history have tried has brought even 20 years of peace. Now we are in a cycle of declining leadership and ascendant greed and corruption, so the future prospects are worse and worse.

[Amonester]

26. And what if one or two or more 'accidentally' end up cruising in

your backyard, huh? Still okay with you? :scared:

[leftofthedial]

31. I'm not a short-range distance from any of those people

but, there is collateral damage . . .

As it is, our lives are diminished daily by ME tension, not so much directly through "terrorism," which is about 99% a neocon scam, but through diminished quality of life, standard of living, hope for the future, social erosion due to religious extremism fed by every ounce of turmoil, etc.

If the price of letting them destroy one another completely instead of this death by bare survival and escalating hatred is that a stray one ends up in my back yard, then so be it. I'll be a martyr to the cause of a better world.

[berni_mccoy]

16. Do you think Israel can kill every terrorist by itself?

Do you believe the rest of the Arab nations will let it wipe out every citizen in Lebanon trying to do so?

What will happen to survivors of the slain innocent civilians of Lebanon? Will they be likely to join an organization like Hezbollah?

When will the violence stop?

Then answer is to stop the violence. To get the governments to work together to stop terrorism. One country alone can not wage a "war on terror". The stopping of terrorism is something that requires universal enforcement of laws by all governments. And that requires an end to violence.

[Amonester]

28. Bingo! The answer is clear: Just, generous (as in 'non greed-

driven,' thus wealth-sharing...) commonly agreed and voted laws that are evenly respected and carefully applied. No exceptions: everybody (and we mean everyone...) must respect the law, and the criminals who don't (and won't) have to be exposed before their peers and justly either helped, or examined, treated if need be, or placed somewhere where no crime can be commited (no need to be barbaric).

Civilization must mean something (which is a lot different than what's going on these days...).

Thanks.

[berni_mccoy]

36. "Civilization must mean something"...

Well said. The lack of respect for human life is incredible. The killing of innocent civilians must stop. And our gov't is standing in the way of that.

[BillZBubb]

22. No problem.

1. Israel withdraws unconditionally to the pre-1967 borders.

The next three items are contingent on the Palestinian agreement to points 5 through 10:
2. Israel agrees to generously compensate Arabs for the "right of return" with cash.
3. Israel maintains a strong, mobile military and retains the right of "hot pursuit" to apprehend cross border raiders.
4. Israel and the US work to build infrastructure in the Palestinian state.

In return the Palestinians agree to hold a referendum on a constitution that:
5. Removes any and all claims against Israel, the "right of return" issue is waived.
6. Recognizes Israel as a permanent and legitimate state.
7. Denies public office to anyone calling for the destruction of, removal of, or violence against Israel.
8. Guarantees the Palestinian defense force will not have tanks or fighter jets for at least 20 years.
9. Calls for the election of a new government satifying the above points.
Also,
10. The Palestinians commit to a program to end attacks on Israel from within their borders. Both sides agree that the first year or two will be difficult and Israel will probably suffer some painful hits. But, the two sides will truly work together to end the violence.

The US must:
11. The US signs a defense pact with Israel whereby if Israel is attacked first by any state the US will view that as an attack on the US and will come to Israel's defense.
12. Provide funding to help compensate for the right of return and for the infrastructure projects in Palestine.

The other Arab states must:
13. Immediately (within 30 days) recognize Israel after the withdrawal. They have already promised to do so. Failure to do so will result in breaking of diplomatic relations with the US. It will also mean curtailment of trade and cultural exchanges.

That's the basic outline.

[Amonester]

23. I would start with something that isn't 'supposed' to happen B4

sometimes in January 2009 (if this fragile planet - or rather, this supposedly intelligent species ever 'makes it to survive' until then):

Get rid of the completely 'gone fishin' & know nothin' + do nothin' absolute brainless and idiotic war criminals who highjacked the White House back in 2000!!

Get someone: in there who's knowledgeable, well educated, honest, who has an aweful LOT of diplomatic experience or has close friends who have, proven talents as a great 'middleman' in tight negociations or has close friends who have these talents, and first and foremost: SOMEONE who's not afraid to WORK his/her brain out if need be, 24/7 if need be (well, almost...), and who will be a REAL intelligent LEADER + MASTER conciliator who will FIND real common grounds between ALL sides, and very wisely FIND and IMPLEMENT peaceful solutions approved by ALL sides, instead of the criminal puppet who's doin' nothin' cuz he KNOWS NOTHIN' except tryin' to learn how to ride his bike and clear brush in his ranch while most of the world burns NOW!!

DAMMIT!! THAT'S A MUCH TOO LONG 2.5 years AWAY! :grr:

(Apologies for all caps but a peaceful solution could be easily reached - who knows - if only that AWOL deserter wasn't stealing any REAL GIFTED LEADER's position and be such a traitorous a**hole like he is, 24/7, and that makes me mad. Just MAD!!) :mad:


On edit: added /her and corrected the Juat typo to Just. Still mad, though.

[Just Me]

12. Endless war is quite profitable to the profiteers. eom.

[countmyvote4real]

15. In more ways than just profits.

They also profit from fear and the cruelty of war.

[DaveT]

18. Agree in part; disagree in part

I completely agree that Israel is doing exactly what Hezbollah and its allies expected -- destroying the nascent democratic government of Lebanon, radicalizing large numbers of hitherto neutral Lebanese citizens, and ultimately leading to another long term occupation of Lebanon.

I disagree that the leadership of Israel does not realize all of the above. "Endless" war is what Israel has known for most of the last 58 years. Now Olmert is working with the Neocons in the Bush Administration to take a crack at open ended war and chaos among Israel's hostile neighbors.

In another thread I call this the Armageddon Strategy.


Finally, I definitely agree that "endless war" is the most like consequence of the current madness.

[berni_mccoy]

25. Misguided may have not been the best word,...

but you agree with my main point. I don't honestly know what are gov't or the Israeli gov't "think" the outcome of their policies are going to be, but they'd have to be pretty stupid to believe it would come out any other way. But then again... our gov't has proven itself to be pretty stupid with this Administration.

[jsamuel]

29. "What's your solution?" is not a defense of a repeatedly failed policy

Suicide Anti-Terrorism

[berni_mccoy]

30. I find that tactic by the right extremely annoying

Instead of offering up a solution, they'd rather sit idle and watch as thousands die needlessly. The solution is to STOP BLOCKING THE UN FROM DOING ITS JOB. The U.N. has called for a cease fire at least TWO TIMES now and wants to inject a neutral force into Lebanon. This will accomplish THREE OBJECTIVES:
1) Stop Hezbollah from initiating attacks
2) Stop Israel from bombing innocent citizens of Lebanon
3) Stop the violence so peace talks between Lebanon and Israel can occur

Once peace talks begin, the governments can work out how they will deal with the terrorists.

[Justice Is Comin]

34. Stupid Israel doesn't realize they're

setting up the potential for 650,000 terrorists right on their border. If they think they have problems now, wait until they find out they created their own Somalia.

[Recursion]

35. If Hezbollah had a winning move, this was it

BUT, if they flub this they'll have hell to pay. Syria's already dropping them as being too hot and if they think Iran won't do the same thing if they cross whatever invisible lines Iran has in mind, they're naive. The big question here is the Lebanese people: how much is Israel distracting their anger from Hezbollah towards Israel. If Israel drives Lebanese Christians to side with Hezbollah, it's a major coup for Hez. If the Christians stay aloof (about the best Israel can hope for after this ruinous campaign), this could still end up being the end of Hezbollah.

[Toots]

38. Their entire frame of mind is "I would rather be feared than loved"

Cheney has made that statement and was quite proud of himself for it and I truly believe the entire GOP firmly believes this and so does Israel...That is why they are indeed feared through out the world but also hated....and because of that hatred will never truly be secure.

[robinlynne]

39. I agree with you, with one exception.

Hezbollah and hamas are not really willing to negotiate. Israel retuned Gaza, and Hamas sent bombs and kidnappers.

[berni_mccoy]

40. I'm not saying we or Israel should negotiate with them

I'm saying that negotiations should be between Israel, Lebanon and other Arab nations. They need to cooperate to rid themselves of the terrorist organizations. The U.S. and Israel won't defeate these terrorists by killing innocent civilians. That will only further the terrorists cause. What will defeat the terrorists is when no nation will harbor them and when every nation will pursue their prosecution.

[robinlynne]

41. That would be a wonderful solution.

But the Arab nations see them as freedom fighters, so it gets more complex.

[berni_mccoy]

42. Any organization that targets and attacks innocent civilians

Should be punished for that. It is the use of violence to suppress a civilization. That's true of Hezbollah, Hamas as well as the Israeli gov't. It's also true that the Bush Administration is guilty of such War Crimes.

Most Arab nations have called out that Hezzbollah was wrong in it's targeted attacks on civilians and that supports the point that the Arab nations are willing to negotiate a resolution. It also means Israel will need to be held accountable for it's inappropriate level and scale of response.

[mike_c]

49. this is a myth that will not die, but that doesn't make it less mythical..

Gaza is not Palestine. Israel withdrew its occupation of PART of the territory it continues to occupy, AND it continued its aggression against Gaza itself in other ways, essentially maintaining a de facto seige. Should the allies have stopped fighting the war in the Pacific when Japan "returned" the Philipines-- or at least stopped fighting from the Philipines?

[theboss]

43. They seemed like they were winning last month

Owning part of the government, completely controlling South Lebanon, and being able to strike Israel with impunity was a pretty sweet set-up. I fail to see how getting hit by continuous airstrikes is an improvement.

Five years after 9/11, it's still amazing to me how few people actually understand the ideologies and goals of the different groups in the Middle East. Hezbollah and Hamas and Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood and so forth are not one big group. They all have different objectives. And I think Hezbollah severely overplayed their hand here.

Not that Israel responded correctly. This is going to end up with an over-extended Israeal, a destroyed Hezbollah, and an Iran in the driver's seat of the Middle East.

[berni_mccoy]

44. Wow, let Israel kill them all?

Would you rather have Israel wipe out every citizen of Lebanon as they *try* to retalliate at Hezbollah? Is that your solution? That's playing right into Hezbollah's game plan as the only thing Israel will cause besides destruction is increased hatred by all of Lebanon and surrounding Arab nations, possibly full-scale war with other Arab nations and increased terrorists attacks upon themselves. The things they definitely will not achieve is security and peace.

[theboss]

45. You didn't even read my post, did you?

I said that Israel made a mistake and was over-extending itself.
But I fail to see how this is helping Hezbollah. Hezbollah's goal is not simply getting a lot of Arab states angry at Israel. It wants territory and power....and the ultimate destruction of Israel. It's not going to gain any of that by this war.