Here's a new low for the airlines.

[redirish28]

My sister-in-law was in town for the past week with her two girls One of them 4 and the youngest 15 months.


My mother-in-law took them to airport today to get a flight back. SIL got hassled by SOUTHWEST airlines. Why? Because she needed to prove the 15 month old was in fact a 15 month old and not a 2 year old. They were not going to let the baby on the plane until that proof came.


Sister-in-law had to get a hold of her husband who had to get a hold of the doctor and beg them to send SOUTHWEST proof that the 15 month old was indeed 15 months.


My wife and her family our outrage. So if you have a second and you are the least bit of outrage by this idea. please let SOUTHWEST know.

[MadMaddie]

1. There was a report out today that says Airlines are making

a profit for the first time again....since 2001...they have reduced the number of flights and the planes are more packed to capacity...hearing that they were trying to gouge your sister for extra fare is no surprise...we are going to hear more stories like this...

[sandnsea]

2. Completely calculated

No doubt in my mind anymore. My mother died in August 2001, my plane ticket was $650.00. My father died last August, my plane ticket was $350.00. They all went "bankrupt", cut union benefits and retirement plans - and then all of a suddent they're profitable again? When fuel is higher now than it was a year or two ago? I don't buy it at all. Completely calculated.

[MadMaddie]

3. Absolutely...and it gets better because this administration

bailed them all out after 9/11....when the burden was on them to secure those cockpit doors....they were warned that it could happen and they chose to do nothing....and America paid for the greed in lives....

[benburch]

4. Details?

Airport? Flight number?

Hard to complain effectively without those!

[redirish28]

5. What I know so far

Happened at the Pittsburgh International Airport.


Flight was at 11:20 AM and it was to Manchester. I'll get the flight number from my mother-in-law.

[tyedyeto]

15. Stories have been told for several years about infants...

traveling with their parents when the family has been denied boarding because of 'Homeland Security' risks. 1 and 2 y/o's denied boarding and the entire family suffers. When will this end?

Probably not in my or your lifetime.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. On my flight to London, everyone was frisked.

Including small white infants. Security was insane. We were detained at Newark for 6 hours because the British government didn't trust American security. We had to wait for them to recheck us all. This was about three years ago.

[napi21]

6. I'm sure many people try to pass their older kids off as being under

2 to get the free fare. That has always happened, and always will. People do that everywhere...restaurants. theme parks etc. It's a big deal for the airlines because they are fighting for their survival now. I wouldn't get upset about it. It would have been nice though if they had told your SIL before going to the AP that she would have to have the proof. Would have made life much easier for everyone!

[RB TexLa]

7. You think?

surely no one has ever tried to do that to them.

Certainly no parent has ever thought "what is it going to hurt if my child flies for free." I've heard them on many flights complaining about having to pay for the airlines to transport their children.

[elehhhhna]

20. LOL. IMO the kids need their own SEAT, with a carseat.

Whats a couple bucks if your kid's then at less risk than the coffeepot on the plane? We ALWAYS bit the bullet and bought the babie stheir own seats. Much safer. Much easier.

[blondeatlast]

22. Even as a tiny infant, we paid for our son to fly in his own seat

with a car seat, at considerable expense.

He's my only child, for pity's sake.

Glad to see another responsible parent in this thread.

[elehhhhna]

28. good on ya!

[Ravenseye]

29. There are safety harnesses that are ok

The problem is just plain lapsitting. You can use the harnesses that essentially lock the baby into the parent, as long as the kid is small enough, and they're perfectly safe. The problem is people who don't even use those things.

[flyarm]

37. if you have to bend down and grab your ankles for a bad landing..

you will be unable to do that ...understand in many bad landings( or in emergency situations) the seat back in front of you ..may be on your lap!
and the reasons for grabbing your ankles is so you can sliter out under the seat back that is in your lap!

you can not do that with a child strapped to you..and i know of no major american carriers that give out strapping devices for a lap child...you may provide your own..but that does not make you or the child safe.

fly

[Ravenseye]

38. Yeah good point

I hadn't thought of that.

[Dora]

41. That stings.

You obviously know what a "considerable expense" it is to fly.

For my family, the cost of two tickets is a considerable expense, the cost of three tickets is prohibitive.

Are you saying that my husband and I are irresponsible because we have chosen to fly with our son in our laps? I hope not.

[flyarm]

51. i am not saying anything of the sort..we all make choices..

that is life..but we may all pay consequences of our choices..some more than others..but they are ours and ours alone..

but be aware a ticket for a child can be had at a much reduced price to strap a child into a seat in a car seat..

will you be able to afford the extra ticket when your child can no longer fly free..??

life with children is filled with compromises and sacrifice..

i know..mine is now 29 yrs old this month..

what can i tell you..your choices are your own...

i can only tell you of the risks and dangers..

and i can only tell you that honestly..

your government won't tell you and neither will the corporate airlines!

i tell you as a lifelong flight crew member..2001 flt attendant of the year for the NY base of my major airline..

and a mother.

fly

[Dora]

58. That's odd. You're not Blondeatlast.

I thought I had directed my query to a different DUer. :shrug: You're not Blondeatlast, unless you're a sock puppet.

You ask if we'll be able to afford the third ticket when he's no longer able to fly free. That answer is probably not, as long as our family economy stays on the same ground that it's been on for the last three years. As it is, we rely on $ assistance from family when we travel to visit them.

Before my son was born, my husband and I preferred to travel by car - it was cheaper and more relaxed. However, that's no longer an option because of $3-per-gallon gasoline, and I won't keep our son trapped in a carseat for 8-10 hours of driving each day.

Some people simply have more choices than other people.

[SoCalDem]

9. ***confession time*** I did something similar at Magic Mountain

My youngest son missed the height mark by a millimeter..and he desperately wanted to ride the ride with me.. (He and I are the only daredevils...Dad and the other two are happy with the escalator and the kiddie train)... so

I took him into the bathroom, and put a wad of paper towel into each shoe :)

We loved it and rode that ride two or three times that day :)

[annabanana]

40. there is a HUGE difference betw. 15mos and 2 years!!

Anyone can tell the difference between the two (unless there is a severe medical condition thwarting the 2 yr old's growth)

[RB TexLa]

49. truthfully I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 15 month

old and a 3 year old or maybe 4. I know nothing about them.

[Codeine]

56. Maybe not "anybody"

Honestly, if you've never had kids you probably wouldn't have a clue. There's absolutely no way on earth I'd know the difference between a 15 mo. old and a 2 year old child. I wouldn't even be able to make an educated guess how old somebody'd kid is.

[flyarm]

8. AS A FLIGHT CREW FOR MANY MANY YEARS..I CAN TELL

you many people lie about the age of their children to get a free trip for the child..but my airline never let us ( as crew) question the paasenger with said children..i can not say the gate agents or ticket counter did not question ages..that wasn't my job..

but personally..i will always question anyone who will take their child out of a car seat in the parking lot of the airport then take a child on an aircraft as a lap seat child...

personally i would never have a child sit on my lap..in a car ..or even more so on an airplane going over 500 mph!!

maybe i have seen too many accidents on faa videos!!

but if i can not afford to buy a seat and have that child in a car seat..i am not traveling...nor will my grandchildren when i have them!

flight crews have fought for many years to require children to be in car seats ..but until some tragedy occurs in massive numbers..it won't happen..

damn shame too!

oh and when an airplane slams into something..fat chance anyone will be able to hold on to a baby or lap child..

hate to state the facts..but those are the facts..

fly

[LeftyMom]

11. flyarm is right

The airline has the right to verify that the child is young enough to fly free and there's ample warning on Southwest's website that documentation of the child's age (and in the case of very young babies, fitness to travel as well, if I recall correctly) is needed. If anybody is in the wrong, it's your sister who endangered her child instead of buying her a heavily discounted infant fare which would allow her to travel safely and comfortably in the same restraint she uses in the car.

It pisses me off too that people cheap out on thier child's safety or that the FAA and the airlines continue to allow it.

[Ravenseye]

27. Well they have those strap.... things.... holders.... BAH!

They're like baby bjorns that fit bigger kids. Parents can wear them and the kids are locked into them in a harness onto the parents, so they won't go flying either (well as long as the parent is locked in).

I think using something like this is fine, and safe, for an infant. After the kid is a year old though, maybe even after 6 months, they should probably get their own seat, at least depending on the length of the flight, just for the parent's comfort.

A 2 month old though? They're prefectly safe strapped into one of those harnesses. Just holding the baby though? That's nuts.

[tenshi816]

17. You make an excellent point.

When my sons were babies, we still bought a separate seat for them so that we could take their car seats on board and strap them in properly. I began insisting on that after a London-Atlanta Delta flight where I was required to buckle up, but was told by a flight attendant that I'd just have to "hold on real tight" to my four-month old if we went into an emergency situation.

After that one time, if we couldn't afford paying for the extra seat, then we didn't fly.

[KitSileya]

21. Don't they get extension thingies for their seat belts?

They do on Norwegian flights. It sort of makes a seat belt fastened to the seat belt, so that the adult can have the child on their lap, while both have individual seat belts.

[flyarm]

33. NOT ON THE MAJOR AIRLINE I FLEW FOR..

in fact my airline and faa regs for my carrier did not allow the child to be included with passenger seat belt..another words the lap child could not be belted in under any circumstances..

so you answer is no..i do not know of any american airline that straps the child in

fly

[KitSileya]

36. I live in Norway, and fly mainly Scandinavian airlines

Here, it's mandatory for everyone to be strapped in during take off and landing, and if a child is too young to be able to sit in its own seat, an adult has it on their lap, with an extension. The child isn't just slipped under the adult's belt, but has their own, even if it is fastened to another seat belt rather than the seat itself. The adult is given a lifevest suitable for the child as well.

There's always a safety demonstration on what to do during emergencies, how the seat belt works, where the emergency exits are, and an admonition to always put on your own oxygen mask before helping children and others - on every flight, before take off.

I think Scandinavia has stricter rules when it comes to airline safety than many other countries (the main airline in Scandinavia is a joint Swedish-Danish-Norwegian company.) Doesn't mean we haven't had accidents, of course - the latest major one was in Milan caused by air traffic controller fault.

[blondeatlast]

23. Amen to that. My family just bounced around wildly as we

landed in Phoenix (eventually diverted) with the turbulance from a vicious windstorm--on a 747, no less.

There were people with lap-sitters on that plane, and it scared me to see what those kids were going through.

As I say above, it's my only kid--of course I brought the car seat--and bought the ticket.

[theboss]

44. I had awful turbulence going into Vegas once

I couldn't even hold onto the book I was reading. I can't imagine trying to control a child during that.

[TahitiNut]

45. I've never understood the "infants fly free" policy.

Just as I don't understand the half-price child's seat. After all, some airlines are attempting to force "full-figured" people to buy two seats at full-fare ... but not pregnant women, of course. Why wouldn't they at least sell that second seat at half-fare? Why not split a 3-seat row (smaller than elementary school chairs) with two large people? After all, it's not like it's a kid taking up that space.

Hell, extra baggage costs a premium and it's not a life that's put in danger.

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Southwest Airlines = Darwin air

Survival of the fittest. Fight for a place in line to buy a ticket, dash to the next line to get a boarding pass - maybe you get one, maybe you won't. Maybe if you don't get a boarding pass, you'll still get place in the next line. Maybe.

Their boarding process reminds me of videos of food aid being passed out in famine-stricken areas.

Southwest is the absolute worst airline around. The only thing that do at all well is hiring perky people, which they promptly burn out due to their low-cost-at-any-cost tactics.

[blonndee]

60. I hate that policy and avoid SW whenever possible

because of it. I think I remember reading that they're considering assigned seating, though. For someone like me, that would be much less stressful.

[Jazz2006]

10. Well, I'm sorry, but

I can't imagine anyone expecting to fly anywhere without being required to produce appropriate identification, especially for young children. Not because of the age factor and possibility of scamming free seats, but because of the possibility of child abduction, etc.

I'm finding it difficult to feel outraged over an airline asking for proof of the child's identity and age.

[blondeatlast]

24. Another excellent point. nt

[Bluebear]

12. Would you be outraged if the baby had been kidnapped?

And SOUTHWEST airlines just let the baby fly down to Harlingen and into Mexico with an abductor who was not asked to prove that the child was theirs?

I think you owe SOUTHWEST a big thank-you for caring so much about kids.

[flyarm]

13. look there is alot involved in aircraft take off and landings..

their is weight and balances..a lap child is consider a certain weight average..and yes their are exceptions as some children are smaller than others and some are bigger..
but an average is considered in weights and balances of an aircraft..for take off and landings..

many times through the years if a husband and wife traveled with a lap child, i would suggest the husband hold the child and that the child be held inside the row of seats ( window better) and not on the isle seat..

i never wanted to scare people..but i guess you could say..i cared about the children..and i have seen too many and read too many faa accident videos and reports....of which , if parents read..(one) would make parents think twice ..or i would hope they would!

because in an aborted takeoff or landing, a lap child can act like a bullet ...if an abrupt stop attempt was made by a moving aircraft..

just the facts..

fly

[LeahD]

14. My dear husband is a retired pilot also....oh the stories you could trade.

It always amazed me that before the use of seatbelts/car seats became mandatory, there were parents who would speak unkindly of other parents who weren't smart enough, or "didn't care enough," to buckle-up their children. Yet I would hear these same parents say it was unfair to have to purchase a full fare ticket on an A/L for a "toddler." (Gee, guess they got used to those empty middle seats in the old days when planes were booked at only 2/3 capacity, and they started feeling "entitled" to the use of that middle seat between mom and dad.) Crew members' thoughts...."Uh, if we were to encounter severe turbulence, wouldn't you prefer your child be buckled in a seat of his/her own, instead of him/her being ripped out of your arms and crashing into the overheads?"

[flyarm]

16. i have seen with minor turbulance ,parents not being able to hold a child

i have also encountered more stories than i care to tell about negligence by parents..with lap children..and annoyance and danger created to other passengers by negligent parents!

and now if you want to discuss lap top computers and cell phone i could also go on for hours!!
but i usually save that for friends..who are always amazed...

understand this..most people today think rules are for everyone else but themselves..its almost human nature today...

we all have our flaws..me too..but when it comes to safety, those who fight the rules the most, are usually the ones who complain the most when something goes horribly wrong, caused by their own negligence or rule breaking...

proceedures are there for a reason..most are put in place because of things that went wrong in a prior incident.

they are usually rules( FAA or airline proceedures) put into effect because of others who were injured previously or crew members fought to put the rules into effect because they saw events that could cause serious injury or accidents that were un-nessessary....and the rules and proceedures are to make sure no one is hurt in the future.

many airline crew have fought, with their unions, to make car seats mandatory..
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ have kept that from happening..

no one can make you put your childs safety first and they won't..only you the parent can do that.



fly

[LeahD]

50. What has happened to common sense? And don't get me

started about safety issues on school buses!

[redirish28]

19. AND EVERYONE IS MISSING THE OUTRAGE MY WIFE HAS!!!

She is outrage that the Airlines already have too much info on passangers already! Look at all the young kids placed on the NO FLY list simply because of a name being simular to a name on that list!


SECOND and most importantly HOW THE HELL is it right for the airline to demand this infomation for the return flight when her sister was not told that she should bring it! HER SISTER WAS NO WHERE NEAR HER DOCTOR'S OFFICE!!! SHE WAS RETURNING HOME!!!! YOU TRY BEING ABLE TO FLY ONE HALF OF YOUR TRIP WITH NO PROBLEM ONLY TO BE DENIED YOUR TRIP BACK!

IF THE AIRLINES WANT IT THEN THEY SHOULD REQUEST THAT INFO IN WRITING BEFORE THE destination FLIGHT TOOK OFF NOT WHEN SOMEONE IS RETURING HOME


As for "owing southwest a huge thank you" Let's see get stranded in the simular situation!


As for the Airlines and there situation! My wife's major is Travel and Tourism. She has been outspoken by have the bull crap airlines have been able to get away with since 9/11


REMEMBER this was the same airlines that took someone off a plane because they did not like the shirt they wore.

You are missing the huge picture!

The airlines want to scream how 9/11 almost wiped them out and everything BUT they LOVED that help Congress gave them and they are still looking for hand outs and milking every dime out of a person they can just to pay the top ladder there HUGE paycheck!

[Ravenseye]

25. I'm sorry you're upset, but the dots aren't connecting for me

I recently flew Southwest Airlines from Pittsburgh (recently being less than two months ago) and not only did Southwest Airlines inform us that we needed to have our daughter's birth certificate (she was about 19 months old when we flew and they informed us by the writing in the printed reciept) but we had to show it at the ticket counter, and we had to show it at security.

We'd never have even made it to the gate without proper identification...well who knows. Maybe a lax security guard would have just waved us through or someone at the ticket counter would have just trusted us, but nobody did.

Secondly...Too much information? They've got your name. That's about it. What else do they have?

I understand that it was probably a crazy situation but as I recently flew the same airline, from the same airport, with a child about the same age and they specifically told me to have identification in the printed general receipt, I have to wonder whether someone missed the fine print (which is totally possible). I'm not saying that Southwest can't possibly be at fault for this, and I definately agree that it must have been an extremely aggrivating and stressfull event...I'm just saying that based on my own recent personal experience I have questions about it.

[redirish28]

46. That's just it my sister in law was never told the airline needed that

nor was she turned away on her flight into Pittsburgh

[flyarm]

52. tell her to read the ticket jacket next time..and if she got an E ticket

the rules are all online when booking!

fly

[blondeatlast]

26. Airlines carry an enormous liability every time they take off.

And we always have the choice of alternative transportation; sounds like you and the missus should consider driving (Southwest is, after all, a short-haul carrier).

FWIW, Southwest has been the ONLY airline in the black since 9/11.

Sorry, guy, your I'm sure wonderful, loving wife gets not an ounce of sympathy from me--a VERY frequent flyer; both short and long haul.


Edit: Quoting you: IF THE AIRLINES WANT IT THEN THEY SHOULD REQUEST THAT INFO IN WRITING BEFORE THE destination FLIGHT TOOK OFF NOT WHEN SOMEONE IS RETURING HOME


Not to be rude, but read your ticketing agreement--it's right there in the boilerplate. It may be inconvenient for us to read it, but it protects the airline from liability--and that's all the airline cares about, I'm afraid.

[Puglover]

30. Next time take a flipping train or better yet drive.

And you might try getting your facts straight and not posting bullshit. My company (I'm not sure about the others) didn't take a fuckin dime from the feds after 9/11. As my executive vice president told me there were too many strings attached.

And it's "outraged"

On edit...the airlines aren't screaming about 9/11 "almost wiping them out." They are screaming 78.00 a barrel for oil. I looking forward to the day when airline management pulls their collective heads out of their collective asses and instead of looking to the employees to subsidize high gas prices starts to charge fares that are reasonable. Last time I check a round trip ticket jfklgwjfk was 50.00 cheaper than is was when I started in 1979. Tell me that makes sense. :eyes:

[blondeatlast]

31. Exactly.

I can manage to drive nearly anywhere I have flown on SWA; I choose the convenience.

[redirish28]

47. Oh really which company was that?

[flyarm]

35. ehh hem...

reply to this quote of yours:
She is outrage that the Airlines already have too much info on passangers already! Look at all the young kids placed on the NO FLY list simply because of a name being simular to a name on that list!


my reply:
no one has ever gotten on an aircraft without their name being on the manifest..


2nd. it is most likely on the ticket envelope..but many people never read those it seems..
those are for others to read it always seems..well that ticket envelope is the passengers contract basically...the airlines regs are listed on that envelope..

and sorry but < at any time > identification can be asked for

there are some things that are the passengers responsibility..like reading the contract!

ahhh an ah hem...i have flown for my career my entire adult life( beginning in 1970)..these regs have been in place long long before 9/11! ( i just took retirement)

and the real experience of being in a tube in the air and the practical study of being a major in travel and tourism...sorry that doesn't cut it for me...

if during flight, fights or arguments break out in a tube in the air..there is no place to send people for a "time out"...so, for the safety for all of the passengers.
disruptive clothing or bad body odor or anything that is deemed by the crew to be offensive to the majority of passengers can be asked to be removed..including a passenger with horrible body odor, or bad and /or offensive behaviour prior to take off..

those regs were in place "before" 9/11

fly

[Bluebear]

55. Your wife is outrage for no good reason.

ANS STOP YELLING AT US.

[lectrobyte]

32. I've flown a lot for business, and I've noticed

some awfully big 2 year olds sitting in laps, so perhaps the airlines figure that

a) they are losing too much money or

b) the grief-stricken parents will sue when an unrestrained baby dies from a head injury during some turbulence.

Either way, I'm for buying a ticket and strapping the baby into a car seat, even if it is younger than 2. Can't afford to fly if you have to spring for an extra seat? Trains, buses, and cars are an option for you.

I'm not seeing why this is a "new low" for the airlines at all.

[LostinVA]

34. My 15-year-old nephew is 6'1" -- he just got asked yesterday to prove he w

He is -- by nine days! He had his school ID, BC, and SSN card all ready,.... because my sister knew they would ask for proof because of his height.

[newportdadde]

39. Have you ever ruined a discount for your parents by arguing about your age

I remember one time going on a ride or something with my parents, 7 and under got a discount or something. Being small for my age I easily looked 7 even though I was like 9. I yelled out that I was not 7 I was 9! Lmao I could see steam coming out of my dad's ears as he had just paid at the lower rate, the guy just laughed and gave us the discount anyways.. heh.

As a father myself with two twin 5 month olds, the airline could pay ME to fly and I would jump off a cliff before I got on for a trip with a 2 1/2 and the twins... arg can't even imagine.

[Catherine Vincent]

48. LOL! You little stinker.

But your father is at fault, he should have warned you before hand. :)

Congrats on your twins! :hi:

[Dora]

42. Everyone is at fault here.

My son is 18 months old, and we've flown with him four times since he's been born.

Each time, I called the airline and spoke with a reservations agent, and verbally added my son as a lapchild to the reservation. Each time, I asked what the luggage, stroller, and lap child rules and regulations are. Southwest Airlines was upfront in letting me know that I should be prepared to show a copy of his birth certificate. I was annoyed, but I found it, photocopied it, and made sure I had it just in case they asked for it.

However, Southwest Airlines was excessive in demanding your wife ID your son on the return trip. If they didn't ID on the leg out, they shouldn't ID on the leg back, especially when they were at risk of stranding a mother and child. I'm assuming that she was flying on a round-trip ticket. If not, then the airline was simply enforcing policy.

[CarlWoodward]

43. Sorry, but

Southwest Airlines has by far the best customer service of any of the major airlines. It's the only airline that has remained profitable since 2001, and its employees are among the best-paid in the industry. They recently gave flight attendants a new contract with significant increases in pay and benefits. Oh, and Southwest is also the most highly-unionized airline in America, with more than 85% of its employees belonging to unions.

And keep in mind that Southwest charges the lowest fares in the business, and is largely responsible for the dramatic decline in airfares nationwide over the last 10 years.

The airline's rules regarding children under two are clearly stated on its web site - it says in no uncertain terms that "A birth certificate is required to validate age of all infants under age two."

The site also states that "that proper use of an approved child restraint device (CRD) enhances child safety on aircraft. For this reason, Southwest Airlines and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) strongly recommend that infants and small children who weigh under 40 pounds be secured in an appropriate CRD when traveling by air."

In this case, Southwest did nothing wrong. They offer free tickets for babies as a courtesy. They could easily just charge full price for anyone.

The ones at fault were the travelers who showed up wanting a free ticket for their child without being prepared to show the proper documentation.

[Bluebear]

53. Indeed. He'd be "outrage" if someone kidnapped his child

and an airline let the kidnapper on the place with no ID for the kid.

[flyarm]

54. correct!! ding ding ding..you win the prize!!...n/t

[Codeine]

57. It's on the website.

It's on the ticket. Open your eyes and try reading the information given every passenger before you have a fit.