What would happen if the U.S. Stopped giving Billions a yr. to Israel?

[Philosoraptor]

And also stopped selling arms to them? We are the world's largest dealer of weapons of mass destruction, we sell them to anyone with the price.

The greater question is, what would happen if the U.S. STOPPED selling arms, and stopped supporting nations? Would our economy prosper, or would it fail because no more military industrial complex billions would be coming in?

I'm just trying to imagine an America that is just and logical, a chronic daydream of mine.

[wakeme2008]

1. Israel would have to stop being the bully and learn to talk to their

neighbors. Israel is the worst type of Country now, lots of bombs and right wing leaders that enjoy using them :grr:

[ComerPerro]

68. They'd have to learn about diplomacy.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. $10 billion?!

The number just keeps going up.

[Philosoraptor]

3. What IS the figure?

And what is the tally after about 30 years or so?

[Behind the Aegis]

4. You made the claim...back it up!

At least you got part of it right....the US hasn't always funded or supported Israel.

[Philosoraptor]

6. Roughly 2.3 billion last year, but how long has this been going on?

Plus we sell them billions in arms, after a while you're talking about real money.

I say stop giving money to ALL nations and keep the dough here for health care, etc.

[Behind the Aegis]

8. $2.3 billion vs. $10 billion..

...so was that hyperbole or just propaganda?

[Philosoraptor]

9. I'll amend it if you'll promise to get off my ass.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Why should I?

There is enough anti-Israeli shit out there, why make shit up?

[Philosoraptor]

11. I'll stand by my figure, after you add smart bombs & troops on the ground.

And multiple battleships just offshore.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

14. What would happen if we cut them off was the question.

Ignore it if you wish.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Philosoraptor]

20. Here are just a few figures.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

No, the destruction of Isreal wouldn't make me feel better. But getting you off my ass will.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Still not the $10 billion!

But, then again, change the "goal posts" to suit your needs.

On edit: Well, I see you changed the OP. Good for you for keeping your word!

[Wonk]

22. Their economy would shrink by a whopping 1.5%

2.3 / 154.5

Source https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html

[madeline_con]

23. No, they own the ships outright

[madeline_con]

19. It's higher, don't amend

[Behind the Aegis]

21. prove it!

[madeline_con]

27. I provided a link.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. that proved NOTHING!

[madeline_con]

30. You've heard about leading a horse to water?

I can't make you believe me.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. There is nothing to believe.

Some "horses" know not to drink from a poisoned well!

[Wonk]

34. To the religiously insane, facts are poison. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

37. And to the intellectually deficient, truth is "bad."

[madeline_con]

52. Aren't they?

Two crazed groups of religious fanatics going at it, and all the innocent people who just wish it would end can't make them stop!

[madeline_con]

43. You ask for something to back up a statement.

Then when it's provided, you cry foul. I tried.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. That didn't back up the OP!

[madeline_con]

53. Nothing will back up the OP if you refuse to believe it.

Quick! Write something in CAPITAL letters and make a condescending remark, so I'll back off!

Your perception of the truth does nothing to change it.

[MGD]

18. "after a while you're talking about real money"

is there still such a thing?

"I say stop giving money to ALL nations and keep the dough here for health care, etc."

It's all about the oil friend. Without the oil, you can forget about national wealth creation and; hence, national health care.
edit spelling

[madeline_con]

17. Total from 1949 to 1997

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact


Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers

$134,791,507,200


http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

[Behind the Aegis]

26. and?

[madeline_con]

29. And what?

[Behind the Aegis]

31. What does that prove?

NOTHING!


It "proves" that lots of money was slung at Israel yet has NOTHING to do with the OP. Not surprising, considering your stance on Israel!

[Philosoraptor]

33. Oh mighty defender of Israel, how would you have us think?

Tell us so that we may go and sin no more.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Try not posting hyperbole.

That would be a good start.

[Philosoraptor]

36. Where would you and I be without hyperbole?

Speechless.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. I am guessing so...since you do so enjoy it!

[Philosoraptor]

39. I'm rubber and you're glue...

[Behind the Aegis]

41. 3rd grade? Maybe 4th?!

[Philosoraptor]

45. You never say anything nice about the Palestinians, try it once.

Try to say something negative about Israel while you're at it, just for a brain excercise.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Change the subject much?

[Philosoraptor]

47. Why do you support Israel so vehemently?

Especially when they act like jerks?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Why do you hate Israel so vehemently?

Especially when they aren't the only ones in the conflict?

[Philosoraptor]

50. I hate jerks.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. So do I!

[zanne]

67. Has Israel ever done anything wrong in your opinion?

Would you be unable to admit if it had? Just a "yes" or "no" here, OK? You're all over the place like a one-man (or woman) apologist for anything Israel does. It's getting hard to take you seriously when you're so obviously unwilling to see both sides.

[madeline_con]

40. I wasn't addressing the OP, I was talking to you.

"Not surprising, considering your stance on Israel!"

What's that supposed to mean?

[Behind the Aegis]

42. You don't know your own opinion and stance?

***tsk,tsk,tsk****

[madeline_con]

49. I didn't ask you what my opinion and stance is.

I asked, "What's that supposed to mean?" when you admonished me for not replying to the OP in a post that was directed to you.

Then you wrote, "Not surprising, considering your stance on Israel!" as if I had some stance that was the reason I didn't reply to the OP instead of or before replying to you. Tsk indeed.

[MGD]

5. Iran and Syria would continue to support and sponsor terrorists

in the region and the entire region would descend into a chaos far worse than what we see now.

-The possibility that Israel would be forced to use nuclear weapons to avoid extirpation would increase significantly. The consequences of that would be bad on a biblical scale.

-Israel would no longer consider us an ally and would likely be forced into political relationships that would have negative consequences for America.

-America would be seen as a country that abandons its allies and retreats from our mutual enemies.

-China would ultimately win control over the middle-eastern oil fields and would use that position as leverage against us. Ultimately, our survival as an advanced nation would be threatened and we would be brought into a face to face confrontation with another superpower which could also have biblically bad consequences.

[Philosoraptor]

7. biblically bad consequences?

Your scenarios are all apocalyptic.

[MGD]

15. Your scenarios are all apocalyptic.

Actually, only two of them are potentially apocalyptic. This is the reality of nuclear weapons I'm afraid; they make the potential consequences of warfare apocalyptic.

[no_hypocrisy]

12. Israel would run a multitrillion dollar deficit like the U.S. and maintain

its military status.

[theHandpuppet]

25. I believe the figure is more like 3 billion

I'm certainly no expert on U.S. foreign aid but the 10 billion per year figure seemed awfully high to me. (Please note I abhor the current conflict so I'm approaching this from curiosity about the true numbers, not to address the opinions expressed in your post.) Anyway, I did a Google search for "U.S. aid to Israel" and these are the first hits that came up:

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/US_Aid_to_Israel.htm
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2867619.stm

The sites, some of which are slanted and some not, pretty much agree that the figure is something like 3 billion, or 20% of the U.S. foreign aid budget. Note, however, that these numbers are not compared to the monies we are spending in Iraq as I believe the last year for which the figures were given was 2003. Perhaps I'm wrong in that, but I haven't had time to thoroughly read all of the articles.

Edited to add: Please note that the 3 billion figure does not include other monies in the form of loans and grants or other monies. See first link for that breakdown as I'm not an accountant and my head starts to spin over number crunching.

[theHandpuppet]

61. Okay, now reading a bit more about the breakdown of monies

The figures are more than 3 billion per year, according to sources in the first link I provided.

The amount for 1997, nearly a decade ago, was something like 5.5 Billion dollars.

(Excerpt from first link in my previous post)

The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers: True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel

By Richard H. Curtiss

For many years the American media said that "Israel receives $1.8 billion in military aid" or that "Israel receives $1.2 billion in economic aid." Both statements were true, but since they were never combined to give us the complete total of annual U.S. aid to Israel, they also were lies—true lies.

Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that "Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid." That's true. But it's still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.

[Ganja Ninja]

54. 1. Our deficit would be 2 or 3 billion lower per year.

2. The Republiklan would pass on the savings in the form of more tax cuts for the rich.
3. Israel would make up the difference by selling advanced weapons technology to China.

[MGD]

55. thank you nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Half Of Their Arms Production Is Domestic

Their Merkava tank is as good as our Abrams M1 tank.

Ever hear of the Uzi.


They are a bright people. Imagine how much they and their Arab neighbors could accomplish if they learned to live peacefully and built "bridges" to one another and not arms.

[TomClash]

57. It would have a negligible effect on the US economy

US GDP is over $13 trillion. $2.3 billion is pocket change - even for the Mayor of New York.

[PATRICK]

58. It would be more disastrous for Israel

now than in the past of Nixon and Carter. They had to play carefully and leave the avenues of peace open
when the spigots could be turned off. If they quickly became dependent on nukes and on foreign arms dealers with other demands and agendas not susceptible to local electoral concerns it would be quite a
shock now, Sharon's worst nightmare(if he could have nightmare's that is) from the peace and reconciliation days of Carter and Clinton.

They are really out on a limb and the chief dependency, on some outside help that would pacify the region, could vanish down to the thin nuclear line. They have wasted a lot of confusing time with the conflicted American executive and have the dilemma of many hostile Arab votes in the UN still as firmly a disadvantage as ever. They probably have to sign on to Bolton's destruction and "pacification" of the UN as well. If you think the US is mire puddle jumping through the century from one debacle to another, Israel is by its nature a mire and needs world wide attention, not gamesmanship and more division and more military display that has nothing but failure at its end.

[stray cat]

59. Maybe a massacre of all of Israel

They really do have enemys who would kill everyone in the country with great glee.

[jonnyblitz]

62. If they keep up their behavior I can see why they have these

enemys.

[watercolors]

60. I see no reason to support them

financially any more. They can take care of themselves. They receive thousands from other sources in this country and around the worl. We need to quit!

[MGD]

63. We need to kick the hydrocarbon habit is what we need to do.

That would change the status quo drastically.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. 2005 - $360million economic aid. $2. 2 billion in military aid.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html

"In 2005, Israel received $360 million in economic aid and $2.22 billion in military aid. In 2006, economic aid is scheduled to be reduced to $240 million and military aid will increase to $2.28 billion."

In contrast, Sub-Saharan Africa received $4.3 billion in humanitarian/developmental aid.

Sub-Saharan Africa population (1998) 622,000,000

Israel population (2001) 6,460,000

[Sensitivity]

65. $3 Billion, $5 Billion, $10 Billion, MORE -- it adds up to U.S. CONTROL

[

[grassfed]

66. Eretz Israel? Priceless

Other costs: the subordination of the media, the corruption of higher education (Campus Watch, etc.) and the UN, the previously unimaginable elevation of pro-Israel End Times religious fanatics (and therefore violence against gay Americans and the degradation of science, etc.), illegal wars, blind support for collective punishment (house-demolitions) and the ruthless oppression of innocent Palestinians, the degradation of traditional civil liberties and diplomatic prestige....

[Nimrod2005]

69. Israel would starve to death...Maybe we should do that.

[Wonk]

70. over a 1.5% reduction in GDP? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. We're Not Talking About Bangladesh

Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people - as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world,
except the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.



Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups.

Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees - ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and
Holland - and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.


Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship - and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

.

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully
computerized,no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper

administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Givun imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the
heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.


Technology... With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world
(apart from the Silicon Valley).

In response to serious water shortages, Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a revolutionary drip irrigation system to minimize the amount of water used to grow crops.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work
force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight
device,produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band
blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct - all without
damaging surroundings skin or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale
solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in
southern California's Mojave desert."

[voter x]

73. right on!

:spank:


http://www.jinfo.org/

[Philosoraptor]

72. I'd rather see the money go to health care for Americans.

[treestar]

74. They would have to be a lot more diplomatic

There are "surrounded by enemies" as they always say. They would have to learn to quit making even more new enemies.

Some of the American defenders of Israel appear to think it would mean the end of Israel. I doubt it and besides, if Israel is that dependent on the US, they are hardly an independent, sovereign nation. You can label them that but if they can't survive on their own, they aren't, really.

I don't see anything bad happening to the US as a result. Upthread there are some threats that Israel would nuke the world in revenge. But that's just the poster, not the people living there.

[Rex]

75. The reason we live with trillion dollar deficits is because of the MIC.

Ike warned the Goldwater crowd and they just scoffed. Now it turns out they were all wrong about economics and we are paying the price. Just imagine if we spent 600 billion dollars a year on public education, rehabilitation clinics, employment agencies, health care. No, the real problem is the people in charge are in it for the Benjamin's, nothing more.