How do Atheists view the never ending Mid East conflicts?

[Philosoraptor]

One has to admit that there is a strong current of religiosity running through the heart of this region of the world, that goes back thousands of years.

I know the conflicts that continually pop up are not completely religion based, but one can't ignore the fact that three big world religions are all based there and have always hated each other, with occasional short periods of peace peppered in.

Personally, I wish I had an atheist bomb, that when exploded above the area would drop a chemical that induced logic and common sense.

[madeline_con]

1. Are we waiting for atheists?

:popcorn:

[China_cat]

2. Self-fulfilling prophecy

fueled by American dominionists who were pissed that they didn't get armegeddon when the ball dropped to start the new millenium.

Just like 1000 years ago only this time the means to make it happen exist.

[madeline_con]

5. Wait...

What about the chosen ones? Are they upset, do you think, that people keep trying to take the land God gave them?

[China_cat]

21. god didn't give them that land

the League of Nations did.

[madeline_con]

23. Sure years later, after God ...

went and let someone else move in!

:eyes:

[rogerashton]

32. Not quite right, as I recall.

The League of Nations gave Palestine to Britain as a "mandate." Britain allowed Jewish settlement for a while, but then tried to limit it. Their reason for limiting it seems to be that the potential for strife in Palestine was rising, but this was also a period when NAZIism was also on the rise, and continued after the war -- the period when the pressure for Jewish migration was highest. In any case, the settlers already there had their own ideas. In some cases those ideas were expressed through terrorism against the British mandate.

[Skidmore]

50. You know, there's a reason why the Brits lost their empire.

They weren't too swift at empiring. Of course, * can't even get the training wheel version of empire up off the grounds. But then the blueblood British genes that * carries have been pretty well diluted by his generation so he can't even affect the appropriate demeanor required of the despot of an empire.

[malaise]

12. This is not really a religious war

Religious leaders and their propagandists love to fool the masses that it is about religion but it is always about land, resources, political power and hegemony. 500 years of this crap is enough.

[madeline_con]

19. When someone say God gave them land, it's about religion. n/t

[malaise]

28. I disagree

when people are brainwashed to believe that gods exist and give land, politicians and armies succeed in fooling them.

[The Stranger]

58. Yes.

Indeed.

[LiberalVoice]

3. Frankly, im fucking sick of it.

I'm sick of people taking their beliefs so far as to deduce that those who wont/dont live by it should die. I'm sick of the whole god damn cycle. Makes me want to :puke:

[ixion]

4. religion is mythology

I think of myself as an Agnostic, not an Atheist, incidentally.

As such, I view the ME conflict as I view all other conflicts: as indulgent forays into folly, and nothing more. Killing people is generally a bad thing, simply because it is ethically wrong to deprive someone (who is not looking to be deprived) of their life.

Now, if the leaders and their followers who always like to start the war wanted to fight it out themselves -- that is, people who are willing to die for what they believe -- I would say we make a big arena for them to do that.

What I object to is the killing of people who would otherwise not want to be killed.

[madeline_con]

10. So the whole thing is based on mythology?

This mythological old man told these people they could have some land forever. Then thousands of years later, these people were all sitting around reading this book and said, "Hey!" and went to get the land, because they didn't live there any more. They'd been gone so long, some other people lived there. So anyway, everybody got in a big fight. One guy said the old man gave his people the land and they kept arguing and then somebody else said it wasn't even the same old man .....

[ixion]

15. exactly...

unfortunate, but very true. :-(

[KansDem]

54. Both have similar definitions...

From FreeDictionary.com

myth (mth)
n.
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" Leon Wolff.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I posted these definitions on DU about 3 years ago and got a lambasting from many posters about comparing myth to religion. Some devout religious types hate it when you compare their religion to a myth.

[LunaSea]

6. dance, monkeyboy, dance.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7UnHOTnPNk

"drop a chemical that induced logic and common sense."
I'd add a fertility inhibiter, and maybe it makes you pee gasoline...as long as we're wishing here...

[madeline_con]

11. off topic

You get high with chipmunks? :smoke:

[rogerashton]

7. It is always and everywhere a great moral wrong

to believe anything without rational justification.

Here is another horrible example

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/nation/15107319.htm

[MGD]

8. I think

If there were no religion in the middle east, they would find something else to justify killing one another... something logical perhaps.

[LiberalVoice]

9. Perhaps

But we'll not know in this lifetime will we. Unless god intervenes and erases religion from all their mind.

Since im thinking of it...Hey god? Could you do me a big one? If you could just get rid of all this religion shit i'd be much appreciated. :)

Zak

[MGD]

17. Man, as a whole, is incapable of internally rationalizing good behavior

Much of what we see today is, IMO, the effect of the diminished power of the external coercive force once exerted by this thing called God.

[LiberalVoice]

20. I disagree. If true...

...that theory would rest squarley within the realm of indeterminism. Something that the more I read about makes less and less sense to me.

[MGD]

25. Man is, at heart, a beast (IMO)

Religion is one path that separates us from our beastly nature. Internal rationalizatiion will also work if one is capable of such a thing. I'm not sure I see how my previous post "would rest squarley within the realm of indeterminism" if you care to elaborate.

[LiberalVoice]

34. The human mind seperates us from other beasts.

While we do have the capacity to act like beasts(and too often do unfortunatly) that doesnt mean we have to. Thats what makes us different. We learn and evolve better then any other creature on this planet. We have the power to create and destroy.

The human mind created religion and I think we have the power to overcome it aswell.

[MGD]

36. The human mind just makes us a more intelligent beast

A "wiser monkey" if you will. Never-the-less, we are still beasts driven by the same fears and desires as as any other beast. I think Jesus understood this more than the others of his time. Say what you will about Christianity but there's no denying that Jesus was operating from a high level of human understanding and that the world is a better place for it.

[LiberalVoice]

44. There certainly is denying it.

Much of which we know about Jesus was written at least 100 years after his death. And as for the world being a better place because of him? I would laugh if it werent so sad. Christianity has caused more blood to be spilled then every other religion. I for one certainly DO NOT think this world is a better place because of Jesus Christ and what has been done in his name.

The good done in the name of Christ has ALWAYS come after his "children" caused the rivers to flow red.

[madeline_con]

22. Really, I read it was like death throes of the baser part

the collective soul, right before peace finally comes to mankind. Sort of a kinder, gentler revelation.

[madeline_con]

14. Like land and water maybe.

[ima_sinnic]

13. I refuse to be labelled as agnostic, atheist, or whatever

I just "am" and I feel that humans might be a fluke species that came and might soon go because they don't know their place in the order of things. They think their "intelligence" makes them "superior," but their IGNORANCE and disharmonious behavior clashes with the natural world order. They are no better and no worse than trees, beetles, and birds but somehow they think they have the right to mold the entire planet to their artificial way of doing things. Their petty little wars and turmoil based on their dumbass craven beliefs are nothing in the cosmic order of things. The planet and the universe were here long before them and will go on long after them. A new "superior" species will eventually evolve, adapted to conditions that were modified by human activity but will settle at an equilibrium state. So it goes. An ecologist can show you graphs, population rises and falls are an integral part of the scheme of things. Since humans have risen to the "top of the food chain," with no natural predators, they are their own biological control agent. Of course, the climate change they're inducing will speed the process of extinction immeasurably.

[madeline_con]

18. I've heard we'll run ouit of fossil fuel before we destroy the

planet with it, that there isn't enough of it to kill earth.

[Solly Mack]

16. You don't have to view an issue with a belief in religion

to understand the role religion has played in that issue.

You certainly don't need to hold to a religion to understand the workings of religion and how religion is used to shape world events.

Let's just say I view it without a personal stake in any religion or religious belief. That's a filter that just doesn't exist for me.

And I'd imagine that some people who are religious can also view the events in the ME without thinking their own religion or religious views have a personal stake in the outcome. (not the wishing for the rapture folks, obviously...but others)

[Epiphany4z]

24. I think about this a lot

I have an relative who prays for the end of times ..because she religious and depressed I think.

I view it all as just very sad. I was not always an atheist..I was never a hard core xtian but what I got from it was comfort...I had my friend in the sky to tell my troubles to and I thought it was supposed to be about peace and love...I think todays religious right would hate Jesus..he was to dam liberal.

In the ME it is not even different religions fighting it is different sects of the same religion. It is just mind boggling...if all this killing and death ..death of children, mothers, brothers is what they think god wants ...how can they have faith this gods heaven is going to be so great?...under it all it is just a bunch of depressed angery assholes . I also wonder if some of the violence has anything to do with how little women are involved in the ME. If you watch tv they show these big crowed protesting or whatever it is always men...you never see any women...

Anyway I think religion helps drive the violence but anybody who only takes the dark messages from religious text is going to find a reason to heap violence on others..god or no god...maybe without religion it would be a bit more marginalized but ....hatefull people can always find a reason to hate.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Basically "tribal" rather than religious.

I think the problem in the Middle East is largely that you have two mutually-distinguishable groups of people who both wish to inhabit the same bit of land. The fact that they are followers of different religions doesn't help, but I don't think it's one of the most major causes - I suspect there would be almost as much bad blood between Old Spaghettimonsterists and New Spaghettimonsterists. If there's any way to divide people up into "us" and "them" people will take it.

[papau]

27. I agree n/t

n/t

[Tesha]

29. Personally, I think it's more tribalism than religion.

Personally, I think it's more tribalism than religion.

These idiots mostly believe the same stuff: Both sides believe
in the nominally-same god (and remember, "Allah" is just the
Arabic word for "God"), both tend towards misogyny, racism,
xenophobia, and homophobia, and both believe that god has
authorized them to blow the living shit out of anyone not
on their side.

If aliens dropped in from space, the two religions wouldn't
look much different to them.

The alien would notice, though, that we're dealing with two
distinctly separated tribes, and they've been fighting their
tribal battles through most of recorded history. The big
difference is that nowadays, they have rockets, jet fighters,
and cluster bombs instead of stones and knives. And one side
has nukes and soon both sides will have nukes. And then their
ridiculous tribal war is likely to kill us all.



Tesha

[JackDragna]

30. I'm an atheist and my opinion on this isn't affected...

..by my lack of belief in God. I simply view the facts of what's been going and see the matter as many here see it: a never-ending cycle of violence perpetrated by Muslim extremists and the cruel, unjust policies of Israel regarding the Palestinians and Lebanese.

[warrior1]

31. Mankind does not deserve the earth.

Petty beliefs and tribal wars in a tech. world. Truly bad.

[TheFriedPiper]

33. If there was a god, he/she/it could make them share the land

I see it mostly as 2 tribes fighting over who has the mightiest imaginary friend.

[CJCRANE]

35. History has shown us

that any group that doesn't stick up for itself usually gets wiped out. So on a group level what both sides are doing makes sense (in a survival of the fittest sorta way).

However, on an individual level, it makes more sense just to emigrate (of course not everyone is rich/fit/lucky enough to be able to do that).

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. Google about what Richard Dawkins had to say about 9/11.

That's what I believe, and he is a better writer than I am.

[SidDithers]

38. A pox on both their houses...nt

Sid

[rman]

39. Religion is just one of the wedge issues used to rally peoples against one

The leaders may give religious reasons for war, but the wars instigated by those leaders are fought for geo-political ends; wealth and/or control of some kind - oil, water, farm land, military strategic locations, etc.

For people for who religion is not a good enough reason, there's communism, terrorism, security.

It should no longer be a surprise that leaders often lie to their People - the main difference with the Bush regime is that when they lie it's so obvious.

[Jacobin]

40. We should sell arms to both sides and let them blow themselves

to smithereens.

Take neither side.

The world would be immeasurably better off without these 'holy warriors' and religious states.

That would be my preference.

[Philosoraptor]

41. I'd go for that, also for stopping the sale of arms to all nations.

Then we could at least claim to be sticking to a roadmap for peace.

[MGD]

45. People would just kill each other with AK-47s instead of M-16s

[MGD]

43. We should sell arms to the Israelis and let them kill terrorists for us

The religious aspect is pretty much irrelevant to me.

[CJCRANE]

57. ...except that

without oil, most of Western civilization would grind to a halt, America first.

[Hugin]

42. They're wondering what a local real estate dispute has to do with our...

hemisphere.

Really...

[passy]

46. Once upon a time in the west.

There was a group of people who had been treated really badly by the government of the country they lived in. They found shelter in a new place that already had a native population. But they simply settled the land and eventually killed off most of the original inhabitants and then when they were done they started killing each other.
Good thing those christian Brits managed to rid the land of those pagan natives that didn't stop shooting arrows at them.
In the end the christian god was mightier than the Indian ones. God bless America.

[mr blur]

47. Religious whackjobs fighting other religious whackjobs

All they need is a reason to hate, and gods always supply that.

[LeftHander]

48. An atheist responds.....

I find that so much of the violence in the world throughout history has been done in the name of religion by people who have other motives. People throughout history have used religion to manipulate public opinion and gather support from the "ignorant masses" for personal gain disguised as a nobel cause.

So here again we have history repeat itself. Violence with religious tones that are masking the greed and ambition of a few wealthy and powerful individuals.

The sad fact is that religious people are constantly being manipulated and played like a cheap fiddle by power mad, greedy usurpers.

Does this mean that I support the absence of religion? Absolutely not. Religion is a wonderful part of the human experience. It gives meaning and comfort to so many. If we had a world that accepted people's religious belief rather than question and challenge them, then maybe people like the Mullahs, Ayatollahs, Popes, Presidents and Dictators of the world would be unable to manipulate and play off the faith of others for personal and political gain.

Fundamental dogmatic religious belief is and always will be a tool for manipulating large numbers of people. As long as one nation takes and consumes more than it's share then there will always be people who will use religion to justify violence.

So the solution to end religious violence and terrorism from religious extremists is not with bombs or a war on terror. But it is to end the disparity that western society over consumption creates and all religious people need to stop blindly following those that seek to use them to maintain that disparity.

Violence, ambition and greed is no means to a peaceful end...only understanding, fairness and compassion are.

[leesa]

49. As an ongoing money/ego making orgy.

[Solo_in_MD]

51. False Premise

Its not Jews v Muslims, though some, esp the Islamofacsists, try to cast it that way. Its Israel v Arab. Most all of the people involved, esp in Israel are secular.

[Goblinmonger]

53. Linky?

Pretty big claim.

[sinkingfeeling]

52. I see it as an indication of how religion-run-amok. People are born into

this world without bias. It is through the teachings of parents, communities, and churches that hatred is passed on to each generation. You stated that they 'have always hated each other'. Why is hate taught?

[Tsiyu]

55. I get angry and frustrated

Then I realize it has always been this way.



I can't fathom why some people want to hold other people in darkness because of their {insert faith, race, gender, national origin here.......}. When you hold someone down, in darkness, you have to stay with them in the darkness.


So then I go watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail. It explains a lot.

[leftofthedial]

56. strong evidence that religion is bullshit

and a threat to the survival of civilization

[alarimer]

59. It simply proves my point that religion is the root of evil

This conflicts goes back thousands of years and it is all over religion. Look at the conflict in Northern Ireland. Look at Bosnia. Not every war is over religion and I also think there are other, larger geopolitical aims at work in the Middle East (such as the fact that we need a client state in the Middle East-Israel- to do our bidding there). But these people HATE each other because of religion and our government is exploiting that hatred for our own aims.

[MamaBear]

60. I wonder how much of the conflict is actually about religion.

I wonder how much of the Mideast conflict is actually about religion, and how much of it is about more pressing issues, like water rights, with religious rhetoric used on both sides to avoid the ugly truth: we'll kill you right away with guns and bombs, or we'll make you die of thirst over time.

How long will it be before Colorado and California are in a similar dispute? What part of the country is getting sucked dry to fill the fountains of Las Vegas?

I think we should stop looking at the conflict in the middle east as something that happens someplace else, and start thinking about how these same issues could arise, albeit it in different clothing, among us right here.

Religion plays many different roles in society, one of which is giving people the right to exclude their neighbors from their community by providing ready made criteria.

If religion didn't already exist, I'm afraid we'd go ahead and invent it all over again. We just need to learn how to deal with it in some sort of sane and rational manner.