"Tough but smart" a line that actually works so does "Neocon Fantasy land

[bklyncowgirl]

Deleted, duplicate post.

[Guaranteed]

1. Nice job. I read the other one before it got deleted.

Never hurts to "channel" ole Dr. Dean in a debate. He makes a whole lot of sense to just about everyone.

[leveymg]

2. Didn't get a chance to see that

What's up?

[Guaranteed]

3. Here's the text of her post:

I was involved in a discussion the other day with a relative who turned out to be much more of a conservative than I had thought about the situation in the Middle East (Dude used to be a total hippie wannabe until his wife found Jesus and dragged him along for the ride) I didn't start the argument--he did--I guess he thought he was in safe territory and no one was going to argue with him.

His line was that Israel was being tough on Hezballah and that was a good thing because the only thing these people understood was strength and that George Bush was right to go into Iraq because Saddam Hussein was a menace who had to be stopped and the issue of whether he had WMD or not was irrelevant. My arguments about creating enemies through overly aggressive tactics and the rule of international law were falling on deaf ears. He had this little half smile on his face. I could hear him thinking "woolly headed liberal".

Then I found myself channeling Howard Dean (and a few other Democrats I've heard using this line). "Yes, If we want to win the war on terror, you have to be tough but you have to be smart too." (usually avoid borrowing talking points--I'm always afraid that someone's going to recognize them, but this one just slipped out)I then went through the litany of Bush foreign policy blunders from Bin Laden's escape at Tora Bora to the decision to turn from consolidating the Afghan victory to invading Iraq, to blowing off the international community, to failure to listen to people like Powell and Shinseki before the invasion of Iraq to the looting afterward to Abu Ghraib to the current civil war. At each step I said "Was that smart?" He'd hem and haw and usually admit that things could have been done better.

He tried to make the case that 9/11 forced everyone to view the world in a new way. At that point I brought in PNAC and the neocon dream of bringing about an era of pro-western "democratic" governments in the Middle East. "They've been planning this for over 20 years." I said, "Every single one of their predictions has been 100% wrong. You think liberals have no understanding of the real world. These people are living in fantasy land."

At that point my brother in law decided that he had to go check his luggage. He sort of stayed back in his room and only came out when there were enough people around to insure that the subject would not turn to politics--his mom would naturally want to keep it friendly. I'm going with the assumption that when the other side retreats, you've won the battle, so here I am proclaiming victory. Hopefully I made him think.

[bklyncowgirl]

5. Thanks Bull Goose Loony you are damn good.

How'd you do that?

[Guaranteed]

7. Did you lose it? I was thinking of asking...

I happened to read the one that got deleted, first, and it was still in my browser.

[bklyncowgirl]

8. I guess I deleted the original post instead of the duplicate

It must have taken the duplicate with it. Thanks for rescuing it.

[smacky44]

6. Very well done! You did win. But then you didn't even have to open your

mouth to do so.

[leveymg]

9. Thanks. Enjoyed that post.

One might also remind your bother-in-law that the periods of American greatness, expansion and ascendency, the Second World War, the 1960s, the 1990s, occurred under liberal Democratic Presidents.

These people need to be reminded that American history didn't start with Ronald Reagan.

[bklyncowgirl]

4. Oh no, how did I delete both of them! Here's the story in a nutshell

And I even had two cups of coffee this morning.

Well I can't reproduce that on short notice.

In a nutshell, Freeper relative starts a discussion on the Middle East. He basically ignores my arguements about international law, predictable consequenses and history--says toughness is the only thing that matters--with a rather condescending smile on his face, I might add.

I channel Howard Dean (and a few other Democrats who've been using that line and say "You have to be tough but you have to be smart too. (I really hate using talking points but this just sort of slipped out)

That gets his attention. After all he's been going on about how we are in a battle of civilizations.

He was forced to admit that the Afgan war up until Tora Bora was an example of being tough AND smart but that allowing Bin Laden to escape from Tora Bora, ignoring intelligence on Iraq and the advice of experienced military people like Powell and Shinsecki was not being smart, that allowing chaos after the invasion was not smart and that expecting that the ancient Iraqi tribal rivalries would not rear their ugly heads once Saddam was gone was also not smart.

He argued that everything changed after 9/11. I told him that the neocons had been planning this since the 1980s and suggested he check out the PNAC website. I ended by saying that the neocons were living in a bizarre fantasy land.

At that point my relative decided that it was real important to go and pack his clothes for the journey home the next morning. He only came out when it was dinner time and his mother was there to prevent any further political discussion.

It was fun and maybe I actually got the guy to think.