Who here defends Israel's "hammer to the head" destruction of Lebanon?

[Skidmore]

Hammer to the head is what an Israeli pilot returning from a mission called it. Tell me again why it is a moral decision to select and target suburbs and to kill small children. Tell me again why it is a moral decision to drop bunker busters in residential areas. Tell me again why a nation formed for people who experienced gassing by a heinous dictator can now decide it is moral to use white phosphorus in missiles against a civilian population. Tell me again why it is moral for Israel to use civilians as human shields and to bomb another nation into oblivion based on the same accusation. Tell me why it is moral to target ambulances.

I've been enumerating some of the contents of articles on this forum. I'm so sick hearing the moral high ground being claimed by nations (our own included) while committing atrocities of a greater scale. Can we say Abu Gharib for a glaring example of the US' infraction--we don't torture and we believe in human rights.

Tell me again why the US and Israel have the moral high ground.

[90-percent]

1. hmmmm

A Jewish version of "Shock and Awe".

Wonder where they got that idea from?

-85% Jimmy

[sgxnk]

58. that should be

shock and oy vey

<cymbal crash>

[stepnw1f]

2. It's Indefensible....

therefore they will accuse you of being ant-semitic or a Hezbolla supporter.

[savemefromdumbya]

3. Cheney just wants you to take your mind off Iraq?

no doubt Cheney is behind all of this

[movonne]

4. You are right...I am all for defending your country, but to me this

is not defending, it is a massacre. I have great empathy for the Jews and all they have been through, but this is too much..

[roguevalley]

146. I despise Hezbollah and I despise what Israel is doing to the

people caught in the middle. I don't defend anyone with a gun. Fuck them all. I defend the sad people in the middle.

[WCGreen]

5. Skidmore,

It's been almost 60 years since the Israeli State was formed...

It's about time the rest of the world started to treat Israel like every other country...

There is simply no excuse for the way they are conducting their latest "incursion" into Lebanon....

[mom cat]

111. "Incursions" are war crimes and are in violation of international law.

[KurtNYC]

6. There is nothing moral about war

which is why it engenders so many lies.

[cali]

7. It's indefensible

and this is flame bait. In addition, the vast majority of DUers do NOT support Israel's attack on Lebanon, so I question who you're really asking and what the point of this post is.

[Skidmore]

10. It is not intended as flamebait. I'm trying to get at why these arguments

are being put forward as the moral reasons for so much destruction by these two nations. Why people support this type of moral equivalency. How people can support blatantly immoral acts with arugments that are, on the face, dishonest. Does it make sense to you? We have had several people over the past few days levy all sorts of accusations re: racism and anti-Semetism when questions regarding the proportionality of response by Israel was made. Now we have more concrete news about what is going on over there. Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying that Hezbollah is anything but a destructive organization who has done much harm. I just don't get how one the crimes of one group can justify new crimes by a second group.

I'm asking those who support this to explain to me why these acts are a moral response.

[cali]

18. I do have an idea of why people rationalize

but I doubt it will give you much satisfaction. Human emotion is complex and it can rarely be divorced from the intellect.

As far as the accusations of antisemitism, I wrote a long post, giving many examples of blatant antisemitism found on DU recently. Which makes me wonder; why do some DUers rationalize antisemitism?

[oberliner]

24. the antisemitic comments

"We have had several people over the past few days levy all sorts of accusations re: racism and anti-Semitism when questions regarding the proportionality of response by Israel was made."

Questions regarding the proportionality of response by Israel are not antisemitic and have not been labelled as such.

Blatant (and subtle) antisemitic comments have been made on this board and in most cases have been called out and thankfully deleted.

Suggesting that people cannot criticize Israel without being called antisemitic is disingenous.

Antisemitic comments are being made throughout this discussion and they should be condemned.

Do you not agree?

[Skidmore]

27. Such as?

[cali]

36. Such as this, which was posted yesterday

"The Rothschilds have been in control of the world for a very long time, their tentacles reaching into many aspects of our daily lives, as is documented in the following timeline. However, before you jump to the timeline, please read this invaluable introduction which will tell you who the Rothschilds are as oppose to who they claim to be."




The above is just a snippet of what was posted, and the site it linked to was utter filth. Although most stuff posted and comments made, aren't this blatant, there's been far too much bigotry either expressed openly or implied strongly, to ignore. There are many examples in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

44. Are you addressing this to me? Because I never made that

statement. Another poster did. Was it intended for him?

[Ms. Clio]

48. yes, sorry, posted in the wrong place

[oberliner]

50. Anitsemitic comments are not being made throught this discussion?

Are you serious?

[Ms. Clio]

54. yes, I'm serious

I've seen very little genuine anti-semitism, but a great deal hysterical or deliberate accusations of it.

Over the years, I've read far worse here about Arabs and Muslims and in the past few months, Mexicans.

[cali]

69. Fascinating that

you can ignore what's posted in #36, and the link therein. Yes, there's been anti-Arab sentiment and anti-Mexican sentiment too, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been a significant number of antisemitic comments in the past couple of weeks. People who don't want to face that fact, seem unable to respond to what I've posted.

[Ms. Clio]

73. sorry, didn't see the post

and yeah, it's nasty as hell. But your link doesn't work, and I'd like to know who posted that crap -- a troll, or a long-time DUer? It is certainly not representative of DU.

[cali]

80. The person who posted that

was someone with 1,000+ posts, but not, I must say, someone I'm familiar with.

Try this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1704735

[Skidmore]

82. I read through some of the thread you provided here when it

was first online. I agree that there it contains examples of some pretty hateful speech. I sincerely hope that you are not interpreting this thread as containing material like that for it does not. It is intended as as an exploration of moral equivalency as it relates to this war. If you read some of my other posts, you will see that I strongly condemn violence on both sides and I abhor war. I don't think that there is a moral high ground when it comes to killing, particularly when it becomes the routine answer to difficult issues. There is no moral high ground in this conflict and neither side is doing more than perpetuating already used bad solutions.

[cali]

83. Absolutely not.

I have seen nothing on this thread that even approaches the stuff I find objectionable.

[Skidmore]

94. I appreciate that feedback very much.

All I know is that this world needs to find another way for to resolve problems between peoples. This earth is the one home in the universe mankind has and we are all members of the same race. We all bleed red no matter the color of our skins or the features of our faces. We all feel pain and joy and love and sorrow. We are all alike more than we are different. I would that we could root out those among us who would abuse the power with which they have been entrusted and use it to harm those without power just because they can. Let us seek peace and peaceful solutions for our world.

[Skidmore]

74. That link does not work or the thread has been deleted.

I have no idea what was in it and certainly do not now. I do take your word that there have been genuine anti-semitic comments made at some time on this forum. That does not mean that every criticism levied against the Israeli government's policies are antisemitic anymore than criticizing the * administration or our own Congress makes one anti-American.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

143. Actually, Ma'am

Over the past days there have been many such comments, which we have removed. We have also removed a number of comments expressing bigotry top wards Islam and Arabs.

[LostinVA]

128. Such as?

Having fun yet?

[Lindacooks]

26. Thank you. That's a wonderfully reasoned response.

I wish we could get the same from the other side.

[HamdenRice]

46. I don't think we're in the realm of reason with this issue

When any person is totally committed -- or pre-committed -- to a cause, the preferred outcome comes first and the reasoning comes later. It's the difference between reason and rationalization.

I posted a poll today about US-Israel policy and whether the US should give unconditional diplomatic support to Israel. It is interesting that a number of people voted for unconditional support, but we have not been able to pursuade anyone who voted that way to explain why. The majority voted against unconditional support.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1726406&mesg_id=1726406

[Mr_Spock]

99. I support your right to question the slaughter

Killing is always wrong - indiscriminate targeting of civilians in the hopes of "getting" a few terrorists is a war crime IMHO.

[leftofthedial]

8. because Hezbollah are the "bad guys"

or at least that's what some DUers keep telling me when I criticize Israel.

[malaise]

9. Israel has no moral high ground here

they're behaving like school yard bullies with more dangerous weapons.

[dennis4868]

11. the problem is....

the terrorist like Hezballah use innocent civilians as shields and hide out in their homes. They also hide their weapons in innocent civilian homes. That is why Israel is dropping notes and leaving messeges on phones to tell people to get out of their homes.

Of course Israeli does not want to kill innocent people. Too many innocent jews have died over the years for Israel not to be sensitive to this. But what else are they to do to stop Hezballah?

[Skidmore]

12. Read this article about Israel.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1726140

How is this different? A human shield is a human shield. I don't care what side of the divide you are on. How is this action any more moral for one group than the other?

[dennis4868]

14. From all the info....

I read and hear, I do not belive the story at all. I have friends in the IDF and this is far from the truth. But let's say it is true, if innocent Israelis are killed because of the human shields I would not blame the enemy. I blame the IDF.

[theanarch]

70. uh, you're missing the point...

...the IDF doesn't use Israeli civilians as human shields, they use Palestinian civilians (including women and children) as human shields...they've always done it, always denied it, had it legalized, had it overturned by a court, and are now appealing to have its legality re-instated. It's kind of like Junior/Gonzalez/Dumbsfeld and torture: they do it, they lie about it, and they want the legal authority to continue doing something they say they don't do...of course, it's Orwellian double-speak that doesn't make a damn bit of sense, but it's the only polemical arguement they can make, short of admitting the truth, and demanding congress and/or the courts put their legislative/judicial stamp of approval on it.

[MadHound]

13. Well they could start out by what they have doing what they always have

When soldiers have been taken captive, that is negotiate a prisoner exchange. But some reason Israel decided to go over the top on this one, and let loose the dogs of war. As we saw yesterday, Israel and the US had been cooking up this fine little mess for over a year now, and I can see why. This war in Lebanon is nothing more than a way to bait Syria and Iran into jumping into the fray, thus providing the perfect cover for Bushco to fulfill all their PNAC dreams of ME hegemony.

Sorry, but the defenders of Israel are not only defending the indefensible, they are also playing right into the hands of the Neo-cons and Bushco. The Democrats and left are divided right before the mid-terms, and now people will be cheering on Bushco as they march into WWIII.

Don't be fooled friend, open your eyes and see where this road you're on leads.

[dennis4868]

15. iT JUST WASN'T THE SOLDIERS....

being taken captive. That was the nail in the coffin. Ever since Disengagement Israel has been under attack by Hamas and Hazballah!

Israel's government musr protect its people!

[Skidmore]

20. Bombs without chemicals can't do that?

Regular missiles can't do that? They have to be bunker busters? Soldiers in face to face combat can't do that? Oh, but we have the American version of warfare first--anonymous death from the skies. Iraq has brought us the first meaningful numbers of deaths and casualties since Vietnam.

[MadHound]

28. And gee, we can go round and round on who's been attacking whom

Israel kidnapping dozens of people, firing shells into the Gaza strip, taking GOVERNMENT officials away, kidnapping them, lobbing shells of their own into both the Gaza strip and Lebanon, hell occupying Lebanon in the first place. See, around and around it can go.

But the stark fact remains that Israel has overreacted, they are going way above and beyond that tired canard of "defending their people" They have gone on the offensive, and have done with no regard of civilian casualties, or the destruction they're causing.

And once again by doing so, Israel is making a foolish mistake. Because all that they're going to accomplish is to turn another generation of people into enemies, thus insuring future wars and future conflicts. It is time for all sides to put down the sword. But sadly, that isn't going to happen. Instead it looks like the ME is going to burn, while chucklenuts in the White House smirks and grins and gets his wargasm on.

You, Israel and the supporters of Israel are being played for fools. Go read your PNAC friend, go see how Bush and his buddies have laid out the roadmap for ME hegemony. Go find out what suckers you are. It's all laid out there, as clear as Mein Kampf was. And yet still people refuse to see:eyes:

[LostinVA]

130. Where were the soldiers kidnapped? Why were they kidnapped?

Do you know the answers to that?

And, I am SICK of hearing, "But Isreal..." Whatever happened in the Holocaust, or in the 60-s and 70's against Israel doesn't give them some kind of killing carte blanc. That's insane.

They are the FOURTH most powerful military in the world. They have committed atrocities for decades against the Palestinians. They are now committing war crimes against the Lebanese people. They have not one iota of moral authority on this. They are being fascist and criminal in their current behavior. That's it.

I am sick of the morally bankrupt excuses by Israel and her apologists on this board. I wouldn't excuse ANY OTHER COUNTRY for this behavior -- Israel doesn't get a free pass on this one.

Cognitive dissonance must be such a warm and fuzzy place for you.

[Skidmore]

17. No fool here. This road is a superhighway. You can see Oz

from here, glowing a sick green on the horizon. I was saying months ago after Hamas was elected to the government in Lebanon that Israel would find a way to get rid of that government. *'s touted election there provided him with a great catalyst to gin up his Really Big Assed War. We've just been engaged in skirmishes till now.

[Taxloss]

107. There was the little matter of 1000+ Qassam rockets fired at Israel

from Gaza alone. And Gaza is where Hamas was elected, not Lebanon. Lebanon is where Israel is fighting Hezbollah, another terrorist organisation that launched rocket attacks on Israel.

[SPKrazy]

114. Oh, Don't Let Little Things Like Facts Bother You

the theme seems to be Israel is wrong, wrong wrong

never mind that they have been attacked and have been in the middle of the bullies from the inception of Israel.

[Zodiak]

101. A good post, my sentiments exactly

This is tremendously unfortunate and has created a great divide between the Democratic leadership and the most active, informed, and emerging power in their constituency.

[Ms. Clio]

that is your opinion, and not a fact verifiable by any of the available

evidence. At this point, I do not believe that Israel cares if it kills innocents, and probably is doing so deliberately, just like U.S. forces in Fallujah.

[RSMS9999]

31. OK

"Tell me again why it is a moral decision to select and target suburbs and to kill small children."

-Hezbollah is not an army. Hezbollah operates in the suburbs of southern beirut and they store theor weapons in the homes of supportive "civilians". It is sad that Hezbollah supporters keep their rockets and children under the same roof. It is hezbollahs precise strategy to force any israeli attack on their weapons os "militants" to involve killing civilians, as too gain more sympathy and recruit more would-be terrorists for their cause. If you think Israel is solely to blame for the civilian deaths, you fall straight into their trap.

"Tell me again why it is a moral decision to drop bunker busters in residential areas."

-Again, Hezbollah is not an army. All of their main leaders and terrorists are hidden under these residential areas. Israel does not choose where they hide.

"Tell me again why a nation formed for people who experienced gassing by a heinous dictator can now decide it is moral to use white phosphorus in missiles against a civilian population."

-If its true it is not moral and it is wrong to do. But Hezbollah are the same people that claim the Holocuast did not happen, israel does not exist, hezbollah destroyed a warship, hezbollah destroyed an israeli warplane, less than 10 hezbollah militants ahve been killed etc. Believe whatever you want.

"Tell me again why it is moral for Israel to use civilians as human shields and to bomb another nation into oblivion based on the same accusation."

-Hezbollah uses its civilians as human shields. When has Israel done this? I dont know what you are tlaking about here

"Tell me why it is moral to target ambulances."

-Terrorists are notorious for using ambulences to move weapons. If hezbollah is using a ambulence for this purpose then the IAF has a responsibility to destroy it. You would honestly be ok with terrorists driving bombs around as long as a red cross is painted on top?
Educate yourself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avm-9IglHTg&search=palestinian%20ambulence

please get your facts straight before you blindly bash Israel

[stepnw1f]

85. Nobody is Blindly Bashing Israel

but instead, blindly defending Israel as you do.

[LostinVA]

131. Maybe someone else needs to get their facts straight...

[RethugAssKicker]

32. What else are they to do to stop Hezbella from WHAT ?

from kidnapping 2 soldiers?...

and this is justified ?

[Taxloss]

108. No, to stop Hezbollah launching rocket attacks on Israeli cities.

The kidnapping didn't start the war. The rocket attacks did.

[RethugAssKicker]

119. Wrong...

The rockets started after the Israeli bombing !

[Taxloss]

145. Wrong.

Hezbollah launched a series of rocket attacks on the Shebaa farms, outside Lebanon and inside Israeli territory, many aimed at civilian settlements, before Israel started its retaliation. The culmination of this Hezbollah offensive was the combined missile and ground attack on an Israeli convoy that led to the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the death of eight. Then Israel struck back, entering Lebanon to (allegedly) try and find the soldiers.

[DoYouEverWonder]

106. I think you misread the report that came out today?

It is the Israelis who admit to using people has human shields.


Israelis accused of 'human shields' tactic
By Lucy Williamson
BBC News, Gaza

The Israeli army has been accused of using Palestinian civilians as human shields in an operation in northern Gaza.

According to the Israeli human rights group, B'tselem, six civilians including two minors were subjected to the illegal tactic during an incursion into the town of Beit Hanoun last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5212870.stm

[ShaneGR]

16. Ok for Hezbollah to lob missiles into civilian areas? suicide bomb cafes??

Ok to offer the familes of martyrs cash to blow themselves up?

Ok to call for the destruction of Israel, push them into the sea?'

Goes both ways.

[Lindacooks]

25. Why is it whenever Israel's tactics are questioned, even mildly,

instead of answering you automatically bring up Hezbollah? We're not talking about Hezbollah. We're talking about the disproportionate response (a war crime, according to the Geneva Convention) of Israel against innocent people.

When ten times as many are killed on one side, that isn't a 'war'. It's a massacre.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. You're seeing the flailing of a nation that has lost the moral high ground

And its supporters are in denial, trying desperately to make you look the other way, just like the news corps and Bush corp are doing. "Don't look at us, look at THEM! It was THEM who started it!" Yeah, right. That argument works just as well in the school playground as it does at the Haig.



Educate Your Local Freepers!
Flaunt Your Opinions With Buttons, Stickers and Magnets from BrainButtons.com
>

[Lindacooks]

41. Yep, you're right.

And I cannot STAND the blind acceptance of anything, everything, a country does. That's just as bad as the 'America, love it or leave it' crowd.

[LostinVA]

133. Double Bingo

[Taxloss]

112. "Mildly"?

Israel is being routinely compared to the Nazis and its tactics are being caled genocide. That is hardly mild criticism.

Israel certainly deserves criticism for its reaction to the Hezbollah attacks, but DU has been anything but mild.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

132. Bingo

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

22. Laughable comparisons

and so utterly simplistic as to be meaningless.

[twiterpatted]

21. CANADA ALLOWS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION

TO OCCUPY ITS SOUTHERN BOARDER AND BUILD UP A CONVENTIONAL ARMY WITH 15,000 ROCKETS POINTED AT NEW YORK.

THATS ISRAEL!!

WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT YOUR GOVERNMENT TO DO?

[burythehatchet]

30. Hillary Clinton made the same comparison

so it must not be completely idiotic.

[The Stranger]

42. Canada is allowing Israel to point 15,000 rockets at New York?

What the fuck is this post supposed to mean?

[sgxnk]

59. blame canada

and their flappy heads!

they bombed the baldwins. this is WAR

[BreweryYardRat]

23. Not defending it.

Retaliatory strikes were necessary, but they went about it the wrong way.

They should have used their best ground troops and run a bunch of covert strikes to kill the Hezbollah leaders on day two or so. Additionally, they should have tried to hit any Katyusha launching sites in cities the same way (assuming you can launch a Katyusha from within a city, I'm not aware of specific details like that.)

The air assault should have been directed against targets out in the countryside.

As it is now, they're just sowing the field for another crop of terrorists a few years down the line.

[furman]

29. Israel needs to do whatever is necessary for her survival

It is a moral obligation for a sovereign nation to protect its citizens.
What country would not do otherwise?

Israel does not intentionally target children.
The areas hit by Israel are predominantly related to Hezbollah activities.
Hezbollah chooses to base their operations in heavily populated areas, hence the high civilian death toll.
Hezbollah uses innocent Lebanese civilians as human shields by placing themselves in these civilian areas.
Loss of innocent life is a tragedy, but is unfortunately difficult to avoid in times of war.

[Ms. Clio]

33. got all the talking points down pat

So do the Lebanese and the Palestinians need to do everything necessary for their survival.

They also have a right to exist.

[oberliner]

This conflict was initiated by Hezbollah

Every Democrat in Congress, numerous world leaders, and the Secretary General of the UN recognize this point.

The refusal to acknowledge the provocative actions of Hezbollah is disingenous.

[Lindacooks]

45. Wrong.

This conflict goes back thousands of years, and when you look at a baby whose eyes have been burned shut by white phosphorus, it doesn't matter a tinker's damn who started it.

The point now is disproportionate response by Israel, and Israel using chemical weapons against a civilian population. War crimes.

[Meshuga]

93. Correction

This conflict does not go back thousands of years.

[Lindacooks]

103. It most certainly does.

Jews have been in conflict with 'Arabs' since Roman times. The Bible is full of conflicts where God 'delivers his chosen people' from bondage.

[Meshuga]

142. In Roman times I know of...

the Philistines who were a big foe of the Jews but those were not Arabs they were outsiders who have no links to the Arabs. Can you site a source in the Bible that says Arabs were a big foe of the Jews? Look at Mohamed, an arab, fought in wars against the Meccans in the same side as Jews. Jews were always tolerated under Arab or muslim rule.

There were other wars in Palestine but the Arabs fought mainly outsiders (Romans, Greeks, Crusaders, Ottoman Empire, etc.) who conquered the area. Not the Jews.

Israel vs. Arab neighbors is a new conflict. Not 2000 years old.

The Bible does claim that God delivers Hebrews from bondage but that is not the same conflict, not the same people, and allegedly happened way before your "2000 year conflict".

[LostinVA]

139. Gosh, it does

Most of the Old Testament shows this -- the bulk of it is a "history" against all those nasty "Arabs." The OT was written from the victor's POV. Fast forward to the last century. Throw in seizing land and some other stuff and voila!

[Meshuga]

144. "nasty arabs"?

The OT came about earlier than your "2000 year old conflict". It's funny that the OT is now being used as a source for historical facts. Read response #142.

(on edit: added response number)

[LostinVA]

147. I didn't state anything about a 2,000-year old conflict

I have a background in comparative religion and history, I know my dates. I was raised Catholic -- I'v never believed in the "divinieness" of the Bible, so I certainly don't know when I am no longer a Christian.

Nor did I mention the OT was an historical fact. It is, however, a cultural record of a certain area at a certain time by certain people. Many bigotries and mindsets are apparent in parts of the OT that are still apparent in the minds of certain people today.

The "nasty Arabs" quote was quoting someone else. But, my point was the same: certain religious and cultural factions have been butting heads in that area of the world for thousands of years.

The other poster's basic point was correct: there are roots thousands of years old that lead directly to the present-day conflicts in the ME. Some dating back into antiquity.

[Ms. Clio]

47. The conflict was initiated by the Israelis kidnapping of 2 civilians

and their determination to appropriate Lebanon's water, and is all part of the larger neocon geopolitical ambitions and goals. This war was planned a year ago.

I think it's clear who is disingenuous.

[oberliner]

55. You got the talking points down pat

The two civilians? You mean the two people arrested in Gaza for planning a massive attack against innocent Jews?

Not even Al-Jazeera agrees with your assesment of how this conflict started.

July 12

Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/35772526-C1A8-4599-868C-E513C4F29C9B.htm

[Ms. Clio]

57. how asinine, like I care what one news article says

It's been posted here that this war was planned a year ago. Deal with it.

[oberliner]

60. it is more than just one news article

which acknowledges that the conflict began with Hezbollah actions.

[Ms. Clio]

61. you just can't deal with the fact that this war was pre--planned, can you?

so sad.

[Lurking Dem]

62. Do you honestly think

the US doesn't have a PLAN laid out to fight North Korea? Seriously?

[Ms. Clio]

63. a plan to invade Korea and steal its water?

I don't think so.

[Emit]

77. I see the article you refer to

But I do not see in the article where it says that the two arrested in Gaza were planning an attack. Can you elaborate?

[LostinVA]

135. As I said to the poster above, facts and opinions aren't the same things

Buh-bye now... you have grown tiresome.

Ignore.

[furman]

43. Of course they have a right to exist

However, they do not have a right to use suicide bombers and launch terrorist attacks against Israel.

Hezbollah and Hamas deny Israel even has the right to exist.

[Ms. Clio]

51. And neither does Israel have the right to destroy the entire country

of Lebanon and kill hundreds of civilians in pursuit of them.

Actually, right before Israel decided to blow up the Middle East, Hamas had indicated they wanted to discuss a 2-state solution. Sounds as if they were prepared to acknowledge Israel's existence to me.

As for Hezbollah, although I don't know what their specific stance is, I suspect you are overstating their goals, which they have no earthly power to accomplish, anyway. If wishes were horses, etc.

[furman]

64. Hezbollah's goals: destruction of Israel and a fundamental Islamic state

Hezbollah is not the same as Hamas...the situations are different.

Hezbollah's mission is the destruction of Israel and the formation of a fundamental Shiite Islamic State:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/hizbollah.html

An Open Letter
The Hizballah Program
from http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm

The Necessity for the Destruction of Israel

We see in Israel the vanguard of the United States in our Islamic world. It is the hated enemy that must be fought until the hated ones get what they deserve. This enemy is the greatest danger to our future generations and to the destiny of our lands, particularly as it glorifies the ideas of settlement and expansion, initiated in Palestine, and yearning outward to the extension of the Great Israel, from the Euphrates to the Nile.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev's and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity.

[Ms. Clio]

65. That source is from 1985, 3 years after the invasion of Lebanon

that created Hezbollah. And were any of those remotely achievable? Who is the only nuclear power in the region? Etc.

[Ms. Clio]

66. I repeat, how ironic, since that source is from 1985, 3 years after the

first invasion of Lebanon that created Hezbollah.

[furman]

67. What evidence do you have that Hezbollah's objective has changed?

If anything, they've been recently emboldened by the power vacuum caused by last year's assassination of the previous Lebanese Prime Minister, and all the sabre rattling between the US and Iran.

By the way, Hezbollah was indeeed created in 1982 after the invasion of Lebanon, as part of the Iranian government's Revolutionary Guard Corps. However, it was not created specifically because of Israel's invasion.

[Ms. Clio]

68. what evidence do you have besides a 21-year-old source?

and sure, that's like saying the Iraqi insurgents were created by Iran and Syria.

:eyes:

[Skidmore]

72. Excellent question, Ms. Clio. I've heard many

Arab leaders say in interviews that they believed that Israel was there to stay and that a solution could be worked out. Perhaps some actual talking face-to-face rather than mindreading would be of value. Much has changed over the past 21 years in terms of the real world.

[Ms. Clio]

75. Thanks, that's basically what I've been thinking, too

The Saudis offered to put together a peace plan in 2002, but it was ignored and rejected, for some strange reason.

[furman]

78. Do you mean the The Arab League Peace Plan of 2002?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/arabplan.html

and analysis:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/arabplan1.html
Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah presented a vision of peace that was subsequently revised and adopted by the Arab League as a peace initiative that offered Israel "normal relations" in exchange for a withdrawal to the 1967 borders and resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue.

In fact, the "new" initiative is nothing more than a restatement of the Arab interpretation of UN Resolution 242. The problem is that 242 does not say what the peace plan calls on Israel to do. The resolution calls on Israel to withdraw from territories occupied during the war, not "all" the territories in exchange for peace. In fact, the Arab delegates lobbied to have the word "all" included in the resolution and this idea was rejected.
<snip>
The Arab demand that Israel accept the establishment of a Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital has been part of the negotiations since Oslo. Israel's leaders, including Sharon, have accepted the idea of creating a Palestinian state in part of those territories. In fact, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to return more than 90% of the territories and give the Palestinians control over much of East Jerusalem at the Camp David negotiations in 2000, but these concessions were rejected out of hand by the Palestinians who offered no counterproposal.

It is also worth noting that most of the Arab League nations have no reason not to be at peace with Israel now. Israel holds none of their territory and is more than willing to make peace with the members of the League. Several members of the League had already begun to normalize relations with Israel before the latest outbreak of violence, and their principle critic was Saudi Arabia.

For the plan to have any chance of serving as a starting point for negotiations, the Saudis and other Arab League members would have to be prepared to negotiate directly with Israel. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon even said he would go the Arab League summit to discuss the plan, but he was not invited. The Saudis have also been invited to Jerusalem to discuss their proposal, but they have rejected this idea as well.

The plan was probably rejected because it offered nothing new for the Israelis.


See also http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf22.html#ii
MYTH: “The Arab League peace plan of March 2002 represents a dramatic new vision in which the Arabs are for the first time giving up their maximalist demands.”

[Ms. Clio]

81. could you possibly come up with some more objective sources?

or read the link provided.

[SPKrazy]

115. Oh, CounterPunch Is Now "Objective"?n/t

[Ms. Clio]

123. the question was not directed at you n/t

[furman]

76. Background information on Hezbollah

Please refer to The Jewish Virtual Library as a starting point for learning more about Hezbollah.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/47_Hizballah.html
Fact Sheet about Hezbollah

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/hizattacks.html

Hizballah's Major Terror Attacks

See Also:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/hizattacks1.html
Hizballah Terrorist Attacks Since May 2000

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/nassrallah.html
Hassan Nassrallah, Secretary General of Hizballah in Lebanon, February 2000

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/hezban.html
U.S. and France Bans Hizballah TV Network (December 2004)

[Ms. Clio]

79. and note that those attacks occurred during the occupation

as for your source about Nassrallah and that interesting interview, what he is saying is somewhat more complex than you are presenting, although he does appear to reject "normalization" with Israel. However, I find these paragraphs from 2000 particularly relevant:

"These regions, as you know, have been devastated and destroyed and needs to be rebuilt on all levels. But it is important to note that not only the South and the Bekaa were devastated by the conflict, the impact of the war affected all of Lebanon on the economic and security levels.

The Lebanese government alone cannot deal with this tragedy. Lebanon needs real assistance in this area, not just media attention. Ten billion or 20 billion dollars can do very little to undo the devastation in those parts of the country.

I think that the United States is very responsible for the damages inflicted in those areas. In the eyes of the people there, the US was responsible for the whole war, since all the devastation that took place in that region carried out by Israel resulted from American helicopters, bombers and missiles. Israel’s attacks were facilitated by means of the unlimited American support it receives. Let us not forget the three billion dollars that Israel receives every year in military support from the United States, in addition to the billions that it receives in economic assistance."


It's like deja vu all over again.

[RethugAssKicker]

34. BULLSHIT !...

[Skidmore]

37. "does not intentionally target"

Weasel words. If you are intentionally targeting residential areas, then you are targeting children. Weasel words.

As for the human shields, see response #20.

[furman]

53. Why would Israel intentionally target children?

They have to target some residential areas because that is where rocket launchers, bunkers, supplies and the like reside.

Why would Israel intentionally want to kill so many people??

Why does Hezbollah hide in these densely populated areas?

Israel places its military installations as far away from civilians as possible.

Hezbollah uses human shields in order to maximize the death toll and gain support of the international community.

[Ms. Clio]

56. rat a tat tat

got em down pat.

[Meshuga]

95. I'd be interested in your answer to the question

"Why would Israel intentionally target children?"

[Ms. Clio]

98. Terrorism n/t

[The Stranger]

38. Welcome to DU, I guess . . .

Did you copy and paste those talking points from some other website?

[furman]

49. No, I formulated them myself from various sources

It's better than shouting "I'm right, you're wrong, Israel commits war crimes, Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government" and so forth.

[LostinVA]

140. My thoughts exactly n/t

[Mr_Spock]

100. This wanton killing of civilians will ensure the opposite outcome

They may win the battle now and in ten years, but they all better learn to find alternative solutions over there or the majority rule will eventually take place. Just let the Arabs who live in Israel vote...

[LostinVA]

134. Nice job with the memes!

Now, how about running along and taking that critical thinking course.... that's a good poster... I know sometimes it's difficult to remember that facts and opinions aren't the same thing, but it is never too late to learn.

Go ahead... run along now!

[Jacobin]

40. I don't

[Cleita]

52. I agree with you, but it seems many don't see the

how horrible this kind of policy by a government is unless it's in the distant past. Those who would condemn the horror tactics of Atilla the Hun can't see it when it's in their own time and done by their nation.

[Clarkie1]

71. Hezbollah is 100% to blame for the civilian casualties.

Israel is not targeting civilians, they are targeting Hezbollah launch sites and headquarters, weapons caches, and hideouts.

It is Hezbollah who chooses to hide behind civilians, and they are to blame. They are murderers and cowards.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1720674&mesg_id=1720674

[malaise]

84. Who just killed those four UN observers

in their base?

[Clarkie1]

88. Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is responsible for this conflict.

I suspect they were deliberately placing themselves near the observers in order to make such a tragic incident likely.

[malaise]

89. You're seriously not well

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/24/1439247

[stepnw1f]

86. crazy

just flippin nuts...


"He made me kill him".

[Clarkie1]

87. Hezbollah fires rockets from civilian homes.

They are responsible for the death and destruction.

[stepnw1f]

90. Do You Like Know Anything Else

you parrot same shit over and over again. And yet you ignore all the points made on this site. Not to mention articles which back up people's arguments. "Clarkie1"... great name.

[magellan]

91. The point is Israel knows Hezbollah are hiding behind civilians

Say the police discover that your neighbors are hiding their nephew, a serial murderer, in their basement. No one knows why they're doing this; maybe he's threatened them or maybe they feel the misguided desire to protect him, it isn't clear. Would you support the police in demolishing their house and killing them and their children just to get to him?

edited spelling error

[SPKrazy]

116. I Agree n/t

[Zynx]

92. What exactly would you suggest Israel does?

Granted, they went overboard on civilian infrastructure, but most of Hezbollah's targets are in cities and towns. They don't have an army sitting in the field that Israel can target.

[Skidmore]

96. Is there any other solution outside of endless cycles of killing

in your opinion? It takes two to do this tango of death and destruction.

[Superman Returns]

97. hmmmm

When I made threads that supported Israel's actions it was flamebait. Yet this gets to stay. Most Jews are Democrats and in fact liberals, so keep that i mind. I'm afraid you guys will have the rug pulled out from under you by the Jewish members and guests of this website who don't want to see their money support a forum for accuassations including that "Israel is a terrorist state." :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. They don't care if they lose the '06 and '08 elections 'cause

THEY HAVE PRINCIPLES. They will not compromise them either...so just forget about those MILLIONS of American Jews who VOTE and vote on whether said candidate is a supporter of Israel. HOPEFULLY, the DU Progressive anti-Israel voice won't go beyond this forum. Otherwise, they are insulting an awful lot of Democratic Jewish voters. 78% of American Jews voted for John Kerry and the Democrats have said they CANNOT afford to lose even a SMALL number of the Jewish vote because that will CEMENT the repuke House control. If this shit keeps up...anti-Israel DUers will be "crying in their tea cups" again.

on edit...here's why I posted what I posted. I started a thread on ths issue and you can read the responses.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1694139

[SPKrazy]

117. As A Non Jewish Supporter Of Israel, I Think It Is Shameful

to read such things as "Israel is a terrorist state" over and over from the same people that I don't usually see posting on any threads that don't have to do with Israel

[Bridget Burke]

138. Well, you haven't contributed to DU at all.

So you can't threaten to withdraw your support.

[ChiciB1]

102. I'm Not At All Impressed By The Position Most In The Admin &

Congress have taken. Israel seems to be over-doing it and I'm definitely beginning to wonder where "We The People" are headed.

And no, I'm not anti-semetic... I'm just calling it as I see it!!!

[Superman Returns]

104. I'm a Democrat.

Thank the lord I have great Democrats like Wesley Clark, Barbara Boxer, Russ Finegold, and Harry Reid that agree with me and represent facts and reality; not simply entering a contest of who can use the word "neocon" the most or make the most threads with titles like "I'm Outraged, I could Cry!" Those thousands of Iranian missles aren't a military threat, millions of Israelis are just hiding in those bunkers to get the record for world's largest game ofhide and seek! Duh! If some of you guys ran the world.....I'm just lucky I can cast my future votes for the Gore's, Kerry's, Edward's, and Finegold's of the world and not Mao's pen pal.

[Mr_Spock]

105. Hey you're back

I guess superman does return from time to time.

Same sorry sarcastic rhetoric though :(

[LostinVA]

141. You managed to say you were a Dem, call us Mao followers, and mention

Iran, all in the same post! Oh, plus insult the excellent critical thinking of known Progressive DUers....

*yawn* Not impressed.

Like glass, Superman... I think Krypton needs some help.

[sweetheart]

110. White people everywhere should rejoice

The heavens have become open, and the armies of israel fight on god's side as the
144,000 are saved and walk with their saviour. God is destroying all the heathens
and undesireables, speaking in to the ears of the western arms industry, kill, exterminate,
like bugs, cockroaches, the humans *are* to be eliminated, finally as a solution to their
messy habits, dirty apes screaming and being upset in the street, dirty apes making love and
procreating.

And so, i hear lebannon is to become a wildlife park, a zoo, like the japanese made of
the korean imperial palace. And the new TR has given the new korea to the new japanese,
will this tiresome cycle never evolve.

[Zhade]

113. Lesse...idiots, those ignorant of history and geopolitics, racists...

OH, you're asking for names, my bad.

:evilgrin:

[Pale Blue Dot]

118. It works only as revenge.

Israel's strategy does not increase their safety (demonstrably) and does not deter terrorists.

But as revenge, it's perfect.

[TankLV]

120. Tell us again why it is moral to INTENTIONALLY TARGET CIVILIANS

EXCLUSIVELY, like Hezbollah has for a long time now, but it is somehow wrong to defend oneself against such attacks?

Israel has not and does not INTENTIONALLY target innocent civilians.

Hezbollah EXCLUSIVELY & ONLY does that.

[Skidmore]

126. And two wrongs make a right?

Again, I say, if you lob a missile in to a RESIDENTIAL AREA, you are knowingly targeting civilians.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. I think what they're doing is inexcusable and needs to stop.

And I'm someone who unapologetically supports Israel's right to exist and defend itself, I have friends over there, I understand the history of the region.. I know who Hezbollah is and their despicable track record. I think Israel had a right to do something.. but not this.

I think the way they've been behaving in recent days is not just morally wrong, but also idiotic from a strategic, military or long-term regional perspective. They're making enemies where there weren't enemies before. It makes no sense. It needs to end, NOW. We need a ceasefire.

[nashville_brook]

124. i'm too scared of being called an anti-semite to have a

thought on this.

go back to sleep now. sleeeep. sleeeeeeeeeep.

[T Town Jake]

125. Israel is defending itself...

...so I support them.

Your post is a textbook example of false premises as the foundation of a loaded question.

[ShortnFiery]

127. That lame talking point has been proven shallow time and time again eom

[jonnyblitz]

136. It's like saying "Sadam attacked us on 9-11" over and over

and over. It's sad. The people defending themselves are the Lebanese, it's THEIR country the Israeli's have invaded for christ sake. Israel always plays the victim!

[morgan2]

137. I bet these kids do

http://tinyurl.com/ejyul