For all of those screaming genocide...

[Zynx]

Who is actually meeting the definition of genocide here?

Genocide:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide
-The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.
-the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
-n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

Is it Israel which has the capability of killing as many Lebanese as it pleases at any given point? If they were targeting civilians for death and destruction, my goodness they are doing an awfully shabby job given their firepower. Hezbollah targets so happen to be in residential areas. They are not a conventional army with large units sitting in the field ready to be destroyed.

No, this definition matches Hezbollah and groups like it that are targeting civilians with the expressed purpose of killing as many Jews as possible. The same goes for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaeda, etc. They want all Jews in Israel dead or removed. If Hezbollah had Israel's capabilities, there would be piles of dead Jews that would rival the Holocaust.

Just who are the genocidal ones?

[ShortnFiery]

1. "Hezbollah targets so happen to be in residential areas."

That does not EXCUSE Israel from continuing to kill civilians. Further if they continue to do so in large numbers, THEN it truly will be a genocide.

[Zynx]

2. What is Israel supposed to do about Hezbollah then?

There are no obvious targets sitting in Lebanon. All of them are in residential areas or areas with innocent civilians in them. Is Israel supposed to just sit there?

[ShortnFiery]

3. A Prisoner Swap, as they have done several times before, continued

diplomacy to support the strength of the Lebanese government attempts to disarm Hezbollah.

I don't buy your "savage Arabs don't listen and want our destruction" argument.

Dammit! You are the Super Power. Just because diplomacy is difficult does NOT, I say again, DOES NOT GIVE ISRAEL A RIGHT TO TARGET RESIDENTIAL AREAS. That is Genocide. :(

[Zynx]

8. That approach has not worked.

Israel has been patient with Hezbollah as it continues to provoke Israel. They have sat on their hands for years.

Will you join me in my call of declaring Hezbollah's actions attempted genocide? If you won't I must then assume you feel that their deliberate targeting of civilians is legitimate and justified.

[ShortnFiery]

54. So you lost your patience :( Then, by all means, A OK to bomb RESIDENTIAL

areas. That is a war crime. And if Israel continues, it's pure GENOCIDE.

Nope, let's imagine that our kid won't listen to us, therefore we take a baseball bat and beat him to a pulp ... to within an inch of his life ... Why? Because talking with him didn't work. :wtf: :sarcasm:

We are all brothers and sisters of the human race.

As such, all peaceful resolutions to issues should be exhausted first.

But you LOST YOUR PATIENCE. Oh, ok. :grr:

ON EDIT: Both sides are guilty of killing innocent civilians.

We must work for negotiation and diplomacy. War will just breed more hatred of "the other."

[Minnesota Libra]

88. To bad everyone at DU wasn't screaming "genocide" and........

....."war crimes" when Israel was suffering day after day and month after month with Arab/Muslim/Hezbollah/Hamas/PLO/etc suicide bombings, backpack bombs, timed bombs etc.

It's easy to suggest a "prisoner exchange" NOW when Israel got tired of waiting on the world to do something about Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/etc and decided to deal with the issue themselves.

It just seems a tad hypocritical to be accusing Israel of "war crimes" and "genocide" now when their civilians have been targeted so often without as much as a peep out of the world.

[Tyler Durden]

94. The numbers of dead are so skewed as to make your post ridiculous.

I'm so sick of showing 1 dead Israeli to X many more dead Arabs that I won't even bother anymore.

Go cheerlead for Israel. I'm certain the PNAC and the Bush Administration are THRILLED.

[silverojo]

53. You think Israel's ENEMIES aren't killing civilians?!? n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

90. Unfortunately, Hezbollah members are civilians

And they live and plan among other civilians are not members of civilians, that's the sad truth

[mike_c]

4. IndianaGreen posted the U.N.'s working definition of genocide...

...in another DU thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x138753

Only a blind ideologue would refuse to see that what Israel is doing to Lebanon is genocide! Imagine Israel shooting minivans driven by Americans fleeing one of our cities, and then consider the bullshit level that Israel's explanations for killing civilians have reached, and consider also the innocent blood that has been spilled.

GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10007043...

I won't comment upon whether Israel's campaign against innocent Lebanese civilians is "genocide"-- it is certainly collective punishment of the most vile sort-- but there is no ambiguity that Israel's treatment of Palestinians constitutes genocide.

[Zynx]

6. By those definitions Hezbollah is deliberately committing genocide.

Do you not deny this? I have yet to see these righteous DUers who scream about the "evil Israelis" say for one moment that Hezbollah is committing genocide.

Israel happens to be causing damage to the nation of Lebanon in the pursuit of a terrorist group. It is regrettable and Israel should be forced to pay compensation to the victims. It is however not intentionally killing civilians.

Also, do not for one second expect me to recognize Hezbollah as a legitimate political organization that would be the only criteria met in that genocide definition. What has happened to Lebanese civilians who are innocent is regrettable, but also unavoidable.

What Hezbollah has done is deliberate and if they had Israel's capabilities, Israel would have been blown off the map with nuclear weapons.

[mike_c]

22. how many Israeli's has Hezbollah killed...?

Not counting during the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, that is-- I except that because it ws clearly a different conflict. Hezbollah captured those Israeli soldiers to initiate a prisoner exchange, to free arabs, mostly Shi'a, held in Israeli prisons, mostly for being "militant." Israel responded by massive, disproportionate retaliation against innocent civilians. Hezbollah fighters have responded to Israel's escalation by firing crude rockets into Haifa and other northern Israeli towns, and yes, a relative few Israelis have been killed by that bombardment. But don't talk to me about "Hezbollah genocide" while Israel kills ten or twenty innocent Lebanese non-combatants-- deliberately and precisely targetted non-combatants-- and Hezbollah fires random ballistic missiles as far into Israel as it is capable, and the overwhelming majority do no damage at all.

[Zynx]

32. If Hezbollah could do more, they would. That's the point.

Hezbollah committed an act of war by attacking the Israeli army. Israel responded with war against an irregular organization hidden in civilian areas. That's going to be messy. They aren't trying to kill Lebanese civilians. Hezbollah is most definately trying to kill Israeli civilians.

[mike_c]

44. if wishes were horses, beggers would ride-- THAT'S the point....

Hezbollah DIDN'T do more. And you can't possibly believe that Israel-- the master of collective punishment-- isn't deliberately targeting non-combatants in Beirut.

[Zynx]

48. With Hezbollah's growing capabilities, how long must Israel wait before

a scenario exists where thousands of Israelis are dying?

By the way, you know how I know Israel isn't targeting non-combatants? It's because with their power, you would see thousands upon thousands if not millions of dead in the streets of Beirut. If Israel is targeting civilians for destruction, they're doing a bad job of it.

[mike_c]

55. you've been watching too much American TV, I think....

Hezbollah's growing capabilities? Hezbollah's threat to Israelis has significantly DECREASED since the end of the Israel's occupation of South Lebanon. It's only during conflicts like this one that Hezbollah inflicts significant casualties on Israel. Again, it's mostly Lebanese (and Palestinian) bodies that are piling up. Until Israel escalated the hostilities, Hezbollah rockets were more nuisance than real threat, at least in quantitative terms.

[ShortnFiery]

56. So your are pre-emptively targeting residential areas, JUST IN CASE? eom

[Karenina]

66. (Pssst... SnF, nits grow into lice dontchaknow?)

Holocaust is a holy word that applies only to us.
Genocide will be defined as it compares to OUR horrific experience (which is THE DEFINING PRICIPLE). It ain't 6 mil yet? Well talk to me when it is.

Da whole fuckin' woild be messhugenah. Ausgefickenflippt. Loco in Toto.

Wha hoppen ta:

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.
These are the things I learned:

* Share everything.
* Play fair.
* Don't hit people.
* Put things back where you found them.
* Clean up your own mess.
* Don't take things that aren't yours.
* Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
* Wash your hands before you eat.
* Flush.
* Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
* Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
* Take a nap every afternoon.
* When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
* Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
* Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
*** And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first words you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.

Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert Fulghum. See his web site at http://www.robertfulghum.com

***For those of you too young to remember Dick ansd Jane, the 3 words were:
STOP. LOOK. LISTEN.

[ShortnFiery]

75. "Holocaust is a holy word that applies only to us."

:wtf: are you talking about? I did not imply such.

Addressing your audience like a grade school teacher address her students is not only condescending but also useless.

I don't know exactly what you wish to convey with such SIMPLICITY, but IMO it's not selling to the people.

Again, :wtf: are you wishing to accomplish here? :(

If you have altered your consciousness, don't give me any, please! :puke:

[Karenina]

83. Clearly, you've misunderstood

my communication intent and I regret that. I have no wish to "sell" anything, I'm just an old woman who is so.very.tired. of violence on all its levels. I've been personally affected and am just reaching out to others to help myself remain calm. I want no conflict with you, there's enough of that swirling around these days.

I meant no condescension. I do teach language to many much more powerful than I. They appreciate my "mother hen" instinct. Simplicity is a double-edged sword that depends on one's communication intent.

I am sorry that my simplistic attempt at engaging you on common ground failed.

[ShortnFiery]

84. I was so wrong - I'm sorry.

Please forgive me for I thought you were trying to be glib and sassy.

I couldn't have been more wrong. :cry: :(

Please accept my heartfelt apology for crassly attacking you - not appropriate.

[springhill]

80. You know darn good and well.......

that if they did that there would be absolutely not one sentilla of sympathy from anyone. The United States, I am sure, would love to use their nukes in Iraq but they know the consequences of that. And just because Israel has not stated that their objective is to kill innocent civilians means absolutely nothing. Actions speak much louder than words and their actions and the facts are piling up against Israel that they are targeting civilians. Does that mean Hizbollah is not despicable and what they do also indefensible? Absolutely not. But as of now, they are not the ones bombing the living daylights out of a country.

[QuestionAll...]

105. my neighbor just got this beautiful new car...

it's parked on the street right in front of my house - tempting me to steal it.

but I won't and I just went over and told him that,
wonder why's he's looking at me funny and not telling me what a great person I am...

curious.

[QuestionAll...]

97. okay, I'll say it: Hezbollah is committing genocide...

but the numbers reveal they are committing it at a slower pace than the IDF is.

there.

[cali]

85. Rwanda was genocide

Cambodia, the Armenians, certain indigenous groups throughout the world, but neither what Israel has done regarding the Palestinians, nor H'zbollah's feeble actions, constitute genocide.

The Palestinian population has steadily grown. Israel's actions concerning the Palestinians is vile, but calling it genocide is inaccurate.

[QuestionAll...]

103. Stalin - 10 million Ukrainians genocided. in memory

of all those dear baba's and gido's. ;(

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Two observations here; first, I totally agree with your assessment........

.....of the differences between the Israeli Army and Hezbollah. Unfortunately, we will be very much in the minority because it seems that at least some think killing Israelis is "payback" but killing Hezbollah is genocide.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. Twisted logic.

As usual. Not you, but the 'some' you refer to.:)

[Zynx]

51. I feel as though I am in a very small minority on these forums.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. You ARE.

The PROGRESSIVE movement...hates Israel....oh, I mean they hate Israeli policies.:eyes:

They hate Israel more than the Lebanese people do! Have you listened to any of the Lebanon citizens who have returned since this started? I haven't heard one person say anything negative about Israel. Not one. Perhaps people need to take a lead from the people who grew up there and live there? nahhh! Hating Israel is more fun.

[Minnesota Libra]

87. That's what I'm talking about....."....take a lead...."

....."....from the people who grew up there and live there".

So it strikes me as slightly strange when some people here at DU will say nothing good about Israel and nothing bad about Arabs/Hamas/Muslims/Hezbollah/PLO/etc. It seems to me that, yes, people Arab and Jew all hope this is over quickly and that Israel takes extra pains to avoid civilians. Yet many Arabs/Muslims know full well that Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/etc all target civilians - both Arab and Jew realize that the world isn't doing anything about Hamas/Hezbollah/etc so someone has to deal with them.

Plus, and this is what I find absolutely unforgivable in all DUers who hold this view - some blame Jews for "being on Arab land" as I saw it worded one day when it WAS NOT the Jew/Israeli who simply moved in and took up housekeeping. The UN is the organization/governing body who set up the area/country known as Israel. But none the less, some here at DU still feel it's just fine to target Israeli civilians as long as they exist in the Middle East.

Since I don't hold to any of that crap I am very much in the minority around DU, to which I say find and dandy. In a effort to be fair I admit SOME AT DU condemn BOTH Arab/Muslim/Hamas/Hezbollah/etc for targeting Israeli civilians just as much as they condemn what Israel is doing now. For those I say, great, I don't got a problem with that, as long as it is fair to one and all. I just want to see and read FAIRNESS and LOTS OF IT.

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. From your post..."some blame Jews for "being on Arab land"

I have had the Balfour Declaration thrown in my face more times than I care to count. It's disgusting to me that there are "Liberals" who actually think/feel this way. They actually support the destruction of Israel! Sad, sad, sad...... This is a VERY sad time in DU history and shameful, I might add.:(

[Minnesota Libra]

93. I truly do not GET IT, I don't understand how some people...........

.....can condemn Israel for trying to wipe out Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/?? because civilians are getting killed, when for month after month after month Hamas/Hezbollah/Arab/PLO targeted Israeli civilians with backpack bombs, suicide bombings, remote controlled bombs, etc and I certainly didn't hear/see a whole lot of outcry about that. I truly do not GET IT and may never understand what difference some people see. Personally, I think Israel has been VERY RESTRAINED for much too long.

Something else I DON'T GET is how some people want to make a distinction between Arabs/Muslims and Hamas/Hezbollah/Plo/etc when by day many Arabs/Muslims are mild-mannered shop keepers and by night they are devoted Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO terrorists.

[Critters2]

100. Many Arabs in Lebanon aren't Muslim

or didn't you know that there are Arab Christians. But that doesn't support your racist point of view, so you ignore it.

[Minnesota Libra]

109. Yes, I know and have known there are Arab Christians but..............

....that is an obvious, which is why I didn't include it in my comments. Since you made a point of mentioning it though I will simply clarify your comments. There are Arab Christians just as there are American Muslims and other religions and sects of religions represented in America as they are also represented in the Middle East to a possibly smaller degree.

Now getting back to the issues raised in my post, I noticed there was nothing mentioned about my comments and questions. Instead, my comments were termed as "....your racist point of view....".

Racism is obviously against DU rules so if you truly think I'm breaking DU rules I invite you to refer my posts to DU mods. I don't think my posts are racist since I try to go out of my way to ask questions I consider pertinent to the issue at hand but not to be racist about anything or anyone. Obviously I was referring to Arab Muslims who also choose to be part of Hams/Herbal/PLO/?? but if you think I purposely neglected to make that distinction then by all means refer my comments on to the mods.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. They are both genocide, so does that make it okay?

[Zynx]

9. Since when was Israel trying to kill every Lebanese?

[The_Casual_Observer]

11. If any of those were your family it would be every Lebanese to you.

[Zynx]

13. By that logic the US committed genocide in Serbia.

[The_Casual_Observer]

16. By my logic the Israelis are killing a lot of innocent people without

justification, it's a turkey shoot. They will pay for this for the next 1000 years, if they last that long.

[Zynx]

19. There is a big difference between civilians happening to die when war

is going on around them and Israel saying "Hee hee hee. Look at that apartment bloc! I bet we could kill a bunch of people if we dropped a bomb on there!". That is the M.O. of Hezbollah and Hamas however.

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. Who the hell knows what those chicken shit bastards are saying

from the results of their bombing campaign they might as well be saying that shit. They will gain nothing by killing "terrorists" next year it will be the same thing.

[Zynx]

27. Israel kicked Hamas' teeth in and Israel has not had so many suicide

bombings. Maybe they're on to something.

[The_Casual_Observer]

33. Give them a few weeks to regroup.

Endless grief.

You probably believe that they actually "won" something in the various "6 day wars" too. Sure, they won the right to live an a police state in fear of constant attack from all sides. Some victory.

[Zynx]

38. Compare the last 3 YEARS to the previous three.

Israel has made itself safer against Hamas. It has worked.

[noamnety]

42. I'm not seeing "the big difference"

"There is a big difference between civilians happening to die when war is going on around them and Israel saying "Hee hee hee. Look at that apartment bloc! I bet we could kill a bunch of people if we dropped a bomb on there!". That is the M.O. of Hezbollah and Hamas however.


"


http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,668017,00.jpg

[EFerrari]

18. Do you have ANY CLUE about how awful that question is?

So, how many Lebanese is it all right to kill - to fall short of the definition?

:puke:

[stepnw1f]

29. I Caught That Too (nt)

[LostinVA]

63. Me too -- ick

[Zynx]

30. Do you have any idea how absurd that question is?

Israel is clearly not targeting Lebanese civilians. That is a fact and it is unquestionable. If they were, with their firepower, the body count would be several hundred fold higher. These are incidental losses, and they are awful, but they do not constitute genocide.

I ask you this, how many Israeli civilians must die before you say that Hezbollah is a disgusting terrorist group bent on Israel's destruction?

[EFerrari]

47. "Incidental losses"

To someone or to many, these are losses ARE NOT incidental.

Sorry. I have to check out of this exchange immediately.

[Zynx]

49. What of the dead Israeli civilians? What of the families of the captured

soldiers?

[LostinVA]

65. "But, Israel..."

SO THE HELL WHAT! One doesn't cancel out the other. God... are you dizzy from spinning so fast and so strong?

[Critters2]

101. 2 Captured soldiers

How many dead Lebanese CIVILIANS?

[QuestionAll...]

106. me too.

fuck.

incidental losses.

fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck

[LostinVA]

64. Your definition of fact is tres interesting to me

To me, fact means the truth. But know what? I don't care to hear your answer. Your warmongering rants are officially on Ignore.

Truly sickening, how ANYONE calling themselves a liberal or a progressive tries to break their neck by contorting facts so much.

Fuck.

[springhill]

82. God O' Mighty..........

You really make it sound as if Israel has sufferen more casualties and deaths than the Palestinians. You are so heartless.

[MadHound]

10. Wow, are you actually saying that Hezbollah rockets

Are causing more death and destruction that the weapons, bombs, bunker busters, Willie Pete and other WMDs that Israel currently posesses and is using.:crazy: Are you actually saying that there are more casualities on the Israeli side? Are you saying that Israel isn't targeting civilian targets?

I'm not calling this genocide yet, but friend, your logic is just plain, purely fucked up. Talk about blaming the victim.

[Zynx]

12. Ummm...Did I say they were causing more death?

Hezbollah is doing its damnedest with what it has to kill Israelis.

Oh, but I forgot, this is poor little innocent Hezbollah. Poor Hezbollah, they're such nice people and those Israelis are so evil.

You are confusing capability and intent. Israel has much more capability and firepower and as an unfortunate side effect of having Hezbollah targets in civilian areas, civilians die.

Hezbollah is trying to kill as many Israelis as it can. It just doesn't have the capability.

[MadHound]

21. Stop with the shit, if you can't debate in a logical, adult manner

Just stay quiet. Nowhere in my posts have I expressed support for Hezbollah, so your insinuation that I'm doing so is baseless, crass and intellectually dishonest. All I'm doing is presenting historical facts, something that you apparently have a dirth of. Therefore I suggest that before you embarrass yourself any further you go do some research and educate yourself.

Responding with strawmen arguements, ad hominems and innuendo simply shows up the weakness of your arguements and the lack of critical thinking. I suggest you correct that, then get back to me.

[stepnw1f]

25. Awesome (nt)

[Zynx]

35. You show no disdain for Hezbollah's deliberate targeting of civilians.

Absolutely none. What am I to draw from that?

[stepnw1f]

50. He's a Hezbollah Lover

Just as I hate America for hating my government's action in Iraq. :eyes:

[Zynx]

52. Oh for God's sake.

I opposed the Iraq War strongly and I still do. However, critics of Israel on this forum are showing a remarkable lack of even-handedness in their criticisms.

[stepnw1f]

59. You Kidding Me or

are you dellusional? You just admitted to not to being even handed yourself:

"I opposed the Iraq War strongly and I still do. However, critics of Israel on this forum are showing a remarkable lack of even-handedness in their criticisms."

So what about Israel's actions?

[LostinVA]

70. No, it's kinda the other way around n/t

[LostinVA]

69. I can also tell you're an antisemite

Plus, you probably park in handicapped spaces. I can tell, because you dare to criticize Israel!

[MadHound]

91. Again, you are making accusations that have no basis in fact

You are putting words in my mouth, making false claims about my positions, posting ad hominem attacks, all without a single shred of evidence to back your happy ass up with.

Again, I must reiterate, this sort of disingenous attack is the product of a lazy intellect that does not bother with facts. I truly hope that you will correct this fault, for it is making you look foolish and lazy. Your shrill yammering about what I have and have not said has not basis in reality, you are simply one of those people who goes blindly on the attack whenever somebody brings up a position that you disagree with. Sad, very sad and pathetic.

Again I urge to do your research, educate yourself, and rejoin the reality based world.

[QuestionAll...]

107. not so much lazy intellect, but a proven effective tool

to use.

Defend yourself against something you never said or thought. Seen it a zillion times.
just don't play, I don't.

[LostinVA]

68. Claiming we think Hezbollah is innocent is all they can do, MH

There's no way to rationalize what the Israelis are doing in a factual way. They know war crimes are being committed.... cognitive dissonance...

[LostinVA]

67. Blah blah blah ... nobody on DU has said Hezbollah is innocent

ALL of you pro-warmongers on DU have that as one of your stock phrases... you won't discuss the fact that Israel is purposely committing war crimes... probably because you can't.

The blinders blind allegiance has put on you is appalling.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. OK. So it's not genocide.

Israel's certainly committing war crimes though.

[Zynx]

17. I suppose Bill Clinton should be locked up for what he did in Serbia, huh?

War criminal.

Hezbollah is attempting genocide, they just don't have the means and thank goodness for that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Bill Clinton dropped white phosphorous on Serbia?

Blew up Red Cross vans? Killed UN observers? Claimed one kind of civilian was more important than another kind of civilian?

I don't remember that.

Clinton did the right thing when he stopped that military offensive in Kosovo. To bad he's not around to stop this one.

[Zynx]

24. You're arguing about minor details of specific actions.

In principle, Clinton did the same thing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I don't consider war crimes to be minor details.

And while Clinton did what he did to minimize the loss of human life, Israel appears to be doing the opposite.

[EFerrari]

26. You got that right. Too bad we don't have an adult in office

that could actually handle this situation.

[treestar]

98. If what Hezbollah is doing is genocide, then what Israel is doing

is, too.

Your point?

Hezbollah sucks. But you know something? So does defending Israel's every move in this snotty way.

Sure the terrorists who struck Israel suck. Sure they are evil. But that evil doesn't extend to everyone in the countries they come from.

Israel engages in collective punishment, that sucks too.

What is Israel supposed to do? If there is no other choice than to pound on innocent people because the evil people might be among them, we're all screwed. We haven't come any farther than the cave man days.

[Rex]

15. Genocide if going on RIGHT NOW in Africa. Will anyone care?

Oh wait...do they have huge oil resources? Well nevermind then. :sarcasm:

[oberliner]

31. DR Congo, Northern Uganda, Darfur, Sudan

Not only should be care, but we should do something about it.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/

[Rex]

37. Yes and right now. We (US/UN) need to do something about it before

Ethiopia invades Somalia and slaughters half the population. We won't and that's a dam crime, but we should! If I was rich like Bill Gates, I'd be all over Africa trying to stop the Genocide.

[Zynx]

39. I was not aware Ethiopia was trying to commit genocide.

Where's the proof in that?

[Rex]

45. I'm not saying that is what they want to happen.

I'd love to see restraint, but I don't think there will be any.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_af/somalia_ethiopia_1

NAIROBI, Kenya - Ethiopia is prepared to invade neighboring Somalia to defend its U.N.-backed government against what appeared to be an imminent attack by Islamic militiamen, a government spokesman said Wednesday.

I have a bad feeling about this.

[Iktomiwicasa]

57. Oh for

fucks sake. The UN is tits on a boar hog. The UN can't even use the restroom on its own, let alone "solve the worlds problems". A worthless organization if ever there was one.

[QuestionAll...]

108. then you are calling all the member countries worthless...

because that is who makes up the UN, or didn't you know?
yes, their hands are tied too many times, but one has to ask why and who vetos what.

edit for typo.

[treestar]

99. The Bible doesn't say anything about war in Africa having anything

to do with the rapture, so I guess those countries are expendable.

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

102. Finally, someone arguing the salient points

:sarcasm:

[The Stranger]

34. Please tell me we're not going to play the Bill Clinton definition game.

It really hurts our credibility. Come on -- they sealed the exits, told them to leave, then began shooting fish in a barrel.

Just try to end it. Bring in NATO or someone and just end it.

[Zynx]

36. There is a very important distinction.

For example, despite what many say, we are not committing genocide in Iraq. It is a botched occupation, but not a genocide. Believe me, you'd know if it was.

Civilians die in war. They always have, usually in numbers far too great. To accuse Israel of genocide for accidentally killing around 350-400 civilians when it is facing groups and foes that would like to insure the deaths of millions of Israelis is simply preposterous.

[The Stranger]

40. Trying to say it isn't genocide is not helping. It makes it worse.

It is like telling people you don't beat your wife any more, or you don't do it very hard and take it easy on her when you beat her.

[Zynx]

43. What in the hell are you trying to say there?

Am I supposed to just say that it is genocide because some extremists on the internet say so?

[The Stranger]

61. Arguing with them with regard to the degree of reprehensibility of the act

is not going to make the act less reprehensible.

Better to work toward ending it and moving on.

[LostinVA]

72. Oh, so Progressive DUers are "extremists" now?

Damn! You're fast with the personal, over-the-top attacks!

[jonnyblitz]

76. the apologists for this slaughter are the extremists. nt

[LostinVA]

77. You got it, Jonny

[Scurrilous]

95. "Extremism in the defense of Israel is no vice?" n/t

[jonnyblitz]

104. ...

:hi:

[reichstag911]

89. This Israel/Lebanon war...

...has really forced me to beef up my Ignore list. People like you who excuse murder with the rationalization, "Well, at least it's not genocide," need to be utterly excluded from any serious discussion.

[LostinVA]

71. Totally not an accident --

Okay, maybe it is, if they are the worst frigging, most bumbling military in the world... which they aren't.

[Bridget Burke]

41. I haven't screamed genocide....

And I don't think a dictionary makes Israel's actions any more forgivable.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

74. Disgusting and shameful -- cheering death like a ball game

You gotta be kidding me.

I don't listen to bloodthirsty poseurs.

On Ignore.

[ShortnFiery]

79. Disturbing. eom

[lonestarnot]

60. 8 stages of genocide.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages.htm

#5 is interesting.

Here's another

http://www.genocidewatch.org/rwandangenocideprevention.htm

[Zhade]

73. Um, Hezbollah couldn't commit genocide with rockets...

...no matter how much the group might want to.

That's a ludicrous argument.

[ShortnFiery]

78. Hezbollah does not have an Air Force nor Tanks ...

Therefore the opportunity to commit genocide is with the Might Super Power War Machine Israel (With USA support). They have the jet fighter bombs, the cluster bombs and the White Phosphorus.

The super power is the one who is supposed to hold the moral high ground if at all possible - to show the maximum of restraint.

Israel (and the USA) are losing The World Communities empathy and support. After hitting the UN outpost, good luck at getting that NATO peace keeping force. :thumbsdown:

Both sides are committing terrorism (killing civilians) for that is the definition of WAR. However, Israel being the super power is expected to play the role of the adult.

[CuteNFuzzy]

86. actions speak louder than words

[The Magistrate]

96. Neither Party's Conduct, Sir, Meets The Legal Standard Of Genocide

Neither even remotely approaches it. Tossing the term about from either direction is the cheapest and lowest form of hyperbole, serving both to debase the dialog and the concept, and achieving nothing else.