Is Destroying a Countrys Infastruture a Proportionate

[rsmith6621]

Response to the kidnapping of two soldiers.....What would the American response be.

[babylonsister]

1. We had a tragedy, and destroyed a country that wasn't even

involved. So I don't know what these braintrusts would do about 2 kidnapped soldiers.

[mom cat]

2. You are right. That is more of a pretext than the US had in Iraq.

[brmdp3123]

3. It wasn't just the 2 soldiers that were kidnapped...

3 others were killed.

[Mr_Spock]

4. ergo...

?

[treestar]

5. US response might be more measured

We did not bomb Lebanon for the marine barracks attack. Even when Ronnie Ray gun was President.

We bombed Afghanistan for "failing to control terrorists" the same way Israel is bombing Lebanon now. But at least the US will claim to be saving Afghanistan from their weak government, and the terrorists and to be bringing democracy to them.

Same with Iraq. At least there is the claim we will build it back up. There is also some activity in that direction (with plenty of contracts for Halliburton).

With Israel we don't get that, though maybe indirectly through the US the same thing will happen and Lebanon can become another of the Great Democracies of the Middle East.

:sarcasm:

[iamahaingttta]

6. It's proportionate...

...to the amount of aid they will get for doing the deed and creating the need for Bechtel et al to rebuild said infrastructure.

[Sherman A1]

7. In response

to the first part of the question. I don't think the current blowing up roads, bridges, airports and the occasional well marked ambulance is either a proportional response or terribly effective. Had Israel sent in a special forces type team under the cover of some air support to get their guys back, certainly, but this is about moving the threat away from missile range of Israeli cities, dealing a severe blow to the "bad guys" and "teachin' them a lesson" that the pain will be overwhelming from such action. It was never meant to be a proportional response, it was meant to be something along the lines of "duck, here we come". Is it right or effective, I don't believe so at all. Is is going to continue -- most likely. In response to your second question, what would we do -- don't know, but if you look at very recent history, when the soldiers were taken in Iraq from the checkpoint, a massive manhunt ensued. Situations were most certainly different, so the exact response is as well. I just don't think we (and as bad as I do believe we botched the Iraq thing from pre-start to today) would handle it the same. Just my opinion......

[MannyGoldstein]

9. 10,000 Missiles in S. Lebanon

It's estimated that Hezbollah has over 10,000 missiles (supplied by Iran) in S. Lebanon. That's not really a special-forces job - it really calls for a thorough, large-scale operation.

[Sherman A1]

15. Bombing bridges, airports, etc

which I understand are part of the "supply route" for those estimated 10,000 missiles will not get the guys back. It will perhaps cut the lines of communication, it might disrupt operations, it might soften the target area for ground operations. It might also just accidentally kill the two guys you are trying to find and free. I am sure that the Israelis (or anyone) would try a snatch and grab operation if they knew where their prisoners were being held and there was a reasonable chance of success. This operation tells me that 1) they really don't and 2). they will use an overwhelming response to hopefully preclude it happening again.

[Solo_in_MD]

26. It will prevent the Hezbollah from moving those they kidnapped out of

Lebanon, which was the reason given for targeting transportation and communications infrastructure. It also prevents troop movement and resuplly. That makes them justifiable targets.

That does not mean I agree with the Israeli approach...

[BillZBubb]

27. Wow, the propaganda points!

"estimated" BY WHO?
"by Iran" SAYS WHO?

Swallowed the Kool Aid I see.

[MannyGoldstein]

8. It's Not Intended to be "Proportionate"

I don't believe that Israel is "retaliating". Rather, it looks like Israel is doing what needs to in order to get Hezbollah under control, since the Lebanese are unwilling to take a crack at it.

Remember, Hezbollah has been lobbing hundreds missiles and bombs at civilians, calling for the murder of all Jews, and has refused to negotiate. In light of this, there's really not much choice.

[BillZBubb]

28. More propaganda bullshit.

Don't you pay attention to anything but Israeli/Faux news propaganda?

"refusing to negotiate" SAYS WHO? Hezbollah specifically WANTED TO NEGOTIATE. Instead the Israeli thugs began destroying all of Lebanons infrastructure and murdering innocent civilians.

You are either a liar or not paying attention.

[MannyGoldstein]

30. Your Thoughts Are Appreciated

Please share with us your interpretation of the following quotes by Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah (who's considered a moderate compared to the current leader:

"If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide."

"We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you"

[lapfog_1]

10. I haven't heard the President say

that "democratic countries don't attack each other" for a while.

That was what he used to stay when he was using "spreading democracy" as the excuse de jour for invading Iraq.

[Erika]

11. Buchanan remarked that Lebanon was the shiny democracy

that W had in his vision. He can't understand why W would allow the destruction of its infrastructure.

[Sherman A1]

19. Well there is a valid question

even if it is from Pat Buchanan.

[Erika]

22. Buchanan has no use for this neocon administration

and has said exactly that.

[Mabus]

17. New meme is "they hate democracy"

The new reason for fighting.

[Erika]

20. Lebanon was an example democracy as Buchanan explained

So why would it be bombed?

[Mabus]

24. Hey I'm just repeating what Bush said today, twice

From the official (and as yet unscrubbed) WH transcript:

PRESIDENT BUSH: The terrorists are afraid of democracies. And what you've witnessed in Israel, in my judgment, is the act of a terrorist organization trying to stop the advance of democracy in the region.

***

And I believe that Iraq, in some ways, faces the same difficulty, and that is a new democracy is emerging and there are people who are willing to use terrorist techniques to stop it. That's what the murder is all about. People fear democracy if your vision is based upon kind of a totalitarian view of the world. And that's the ultimate challenge facing Iraq and Lebanon and the Palestinian Territories, and that is, will the free world, and the neighborhood, work in concert to help develop sustainable democracy?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/07/20060725.html

[Erika]

25. 23% of the democratically elected Lebanon government

was from Hazbollah. The Lebanese people voted democratically. As Buchanan said, W has touted Lebanon as a shiny jewel of democracy in the ME.

What happened?

[kitty1]

12. By looking at the history of confrontations between Israel....

and hezbollah in respect to border infractions, the following examples illustrate similar circumstances between both sides, yet no annihilation of Lebanon occurs here. These are excerpts taken from the Country Reports on Human Rights 2004 by the U.S State Dept. on Lebanon.
Both sides confront and attack each other over, but the retaliation is localized.

"On July 20,2004 Hizballah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hizballah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut."

"During the year, violent cross-border incidents since the 2000 IDF withdrawal, involving Hizballah, Palestinian, and other unidentified armed elements, continued."

"In January, Hizballah and Israel carried out the first phase of a prisoner exchange. As a result, 21 Lebanese prisoners were returned to the country on January 29, followed by the January 30 repatriation of the remains of 59 Hizballah fighters killed in guerilla operations during the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon. Hizballah for its part returned the remains of three Israeli soldiers and released IDF reservist Elhann Tannenbaum, who was kidnapped in 2000. A second phase, a promised Hizbollah investigation into the fate of Israeli airman Ron Arad and the release of additional Lebanese prisoners by Israel, which was the result of secret negotiations, had not materialized at year's end. "

You get the picture. These are just a couple of examples. It begs the question then; why now is Israel bombing the hell out of Lebanon over a situation that was handled less violently in the past. It's time to clean off the pawns of the ME chess game I'm guessing. A lot at stake here now.

[Erika]

14. Part of a bigger plan?

Thought out and conceived long ago?

[walldude]

21. Yup.. Hezbollah offered a prisoner exchange

Israel said it was unacceptable even though it's been done in the past. There are puppeteers pulling strings here, Hezbollah has offered a cease fire, offered talks, but someone wants this escalated beyond control. I can't help but feel for both the Lebanese and Israeli people who are caught in the middle of this pointless conflict.

[Erika]

23. Pawns in a worldwide neocon chess game?

I had a friend tell me today that how Israel is acting militarily now is the dream of neocons and their plans for us. He's an older ex military guy.

[walldude]

29. That's what this looks like to me..

Although I don't have enough information to confirm my suspicions...

[Erika]

13. The destruction of the infrastructure hurts the average family

Countdown had an interview with a young Lebanese woman who said she now hated the Israelis for bombing their houses, communities,and killing their families.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. It's a war crime. And, punishable as such.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0720/dailyUpdate.html

UN warns Hizbullah, Israel of 'war crimes' liability
Human rights chief points to 'unjustifiable' numbers of 'innocent civilian' casualties in conflict.
By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com

In a strongly worded warning to the leaders of both the militant group Hizbullah and Israel, United Nations Human Rights Commissioner Louise Arbour threatened the "perpetrators of wanton violence against civilians in the current Middle East conflict with liability for war crimes."

Jurist, the legal news website, reports that Ms. Arbour, a former Canadian Supreme Court Justice and war crimes prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia issued a "pointed" statement aimed directly at the two combatants and their leaders.

Indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians. Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable. International humanitarian law is clear on the supreme obligation to protect civilians during hostilities. This obligation is also expressed in international criminal law, which defines war crimes and crimes against humanity. International law demands accountability. The scale of the killings in the region, and their predictability, could engage the personal criminal responsibility of those involved, particularly those in a position of command and control.

[Erika]

18. The bombing of the U.N. Post has been considered intentional

by the U.N.