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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:21 PM
Original message
If Kerry or Clark or Dean were president ...
There would be no crisis in Lebanon right now.

Any one of them would have been engaged and involved in the Middle East from day one.

When Israel withdrew from Lebanon, any one of them would have been working immediately with the international community to assist the government of Lebanon in making certain that Hezbollah was disarmed.

The opportunity for diplomacy has been there for close to a year.

Bush did nothing.

Kerry, Clark, or Dean would have seized the opportunity and ensured that we never reached this crisis point.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. If Kerry or Dean were President
They might have put up a fight against the terrorist on 9/11,,,

An American city and it's residents might have been evacuated sooner...

We would have 3000 plus men and women of the military alive....some might have perished in Afghanastan but they would be fighting the right fight....

Civil rights would not have taken a backseat to political cronyism....and outright facism...


I could go on...but I will let the others continue....
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. I just don't believe that.
I'm sorry. I can't. I consider myself somewhat well-read. I read a lot. I talk to a lot of people and have traveled a lot. And I can't believe that Kerry or Clark or Dean would say there would be no crisis. Especially when Kerry and Clark have both explicitly come out and said that their position on the crisis is about no different than Bush's.

It's a nice dream -- to make the "opposition" into what you want them to be. I WISH we had leaders willing to stand for peace. But those guys -- they aren't them. I have to face reality.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I think the important difference is that Kerry and Dean
would not have been sidetracked from taking out OBL....

much of the crisis we are witnessing in the Middle East is an indirect result of the * cabal attacking and occupying Iraq....

They were warned that this very action could destablize the region...I don't think Dean or Kerry would be there....
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I see no reason why Kerry at least wouldn't
He throughout his Senate career supported attacks against Iraq, except during the first Gulf War. Never a word of outrage against the slaughter of Iraqi citizens by embargo or air strike by the Bushes or Clinton.

Again, I WISH these people stood for peace. But I have to face a thing called reality. That's life.

On the even of the Iraq invasion Clark uttered a statement quoting some poetry about liberation, about how Iraqis would be thanking us for what we were doing. He believes that. He was against the conflict on strategic grounds. The same can be said about Dean and Kerry. They have the same anglo/American-centric philosophy where Arab lives -- well they just don't matter.

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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. are you seriously trying to claim what happened in Iraq during Clinton's
administration and what Bush has done is the same ?


and Kerry has continuously criticized Bush.

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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Right wingers continually criticize Bush too
The American Conservative magazine, CATO Institute, etc. The point is: what alternative are they presenting? Are they presenting a real alternative or just rhetoric? Because if it's just critical rhetoric, then they're not doing much else than just playing politics.

Lebanese children continue to die as Kerry goes and expressed undue support for Israel.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Kerry is not President
and Lebanese children are not dying because of that vote.

Kerry has said as President he would have been engaged in the area. just as Bill Clinton was.

i don't understand your "rhetoric and politics"p roblem. this is all about politics. anything he says or does will be part of politics.

the fact is there was a real difference between the Clinton years and Bush years when it came to handling of the middle east.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Have you read his statement on the fighting?
He has given full greenlight to Israel.

Saying he will be more "engaged" hardly means anything at all. It's political rhetoric engineering designed to get people away from actions and issues.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. he has said that if he was President , this would not have happened
and that is the truth. i don't agree with all of his statements and i find it lacking in some cases. but the fact is that things would not be the same and that is what matters.


it's interesting how you dismiss anything he says concerning differences with Bush by saying it's political rhetoric or whatever else. yet you fully latch on to other things to try to claim there is no difference.

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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. How would it not have happened?
As a Senator he's telling Israel to bomb away. As President what would we do, tell Israel to bomb away and maybe put some signing statements in order to help Israel even a little more?

Politicians of both parties are partial to deception through rhetoric.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. he would have done something about Hezbollah
he would have provided support for Lebanon to weaken Hezbollah and other terrorist groups.

Israel is striking back because of Hezbollah attacks. their attacks are ineffective as mostly innocent civilians are being killed and Hezbollah just gets stronger. but Kerry would have done something to fight Hezbollah in thef irst place so Israel didn't do this.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Oh, would he?
I'd like to know how you know he would've done that. By talking about how great Israel is and how it should not respect Palestinian rights or work with Lebanon for reparations and prisoner release?

Arabs shouldn't have to deal with people who don't care about their lives. I wouldn't deal with Kerry until he stopped taking AIPAC checks.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Kerry doesn't take AIPAC checks
not that it matters. and he never said Israel shouldn't respect anyone's rights.

now you are just making things up.

the OPs point was there is a difference between Dems and Republicans. the proof is in Clinton vs Bush on middle east handling.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. You know not what you speak of! You read something somewhere....
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 01:03 AM by FrenchieCat
but apparently not the actual article which you refer to! :eyes:

The Article was written in April of 2003.....a few days after the taking down of Saddam's statue.....and right before "Mission accomplished" was announced by Bush. The Article was written for the London Times, an out of country newspaper. In it, Clark subtly let those readers (who's reading comprehension allows them to read the Times) know that Iraq was not over yet.....which was what was being sold to us at that time.

The last sentences of the OPEd gives you the gist and conclusion of what Wes Clark thought at the time ....
"But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven?t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."



http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/01/16/211703.php
Via Instapundit:

Roger L. Simon posts an op-ed Wesley Clark wrote on April 10th of last year, and claims that it proves that Clark supported the war. Had I read the op-ed quickly without knowing anything about Clark, I might very well have concluded that he was expressing qualified support for the war.

However even a passably careful reading of the thing reveals that it fails to provide significant evidence that Clark supported the war. Everything Clark writes is consistent with opposition to the war--though perhaps combined with recognition that the world is better without Saddam and a desire to portray the whole enterprise in a good light. All of these things are, of course, consistent with thinking that the self-defense case for war was a crock and that the decision to go to war was a sub-optimal one.

The most important passage for those who would portray the essay as strong (or even conclusive) evidence that Clark was for the war are as follows:

"Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled. Liberation is at hand. Liberation ? the powerful balm that justifies painful sacrifice, erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions. Already the scent of victory is in the air. Yet a bit more work and some careful reckoning need to be done before we take our triumph."

Needless to say we have to resist the urge to strain for a non-pro-war message here. Intellectual integrity is in short enough supply these days. Our question is not can we force a non-pro-war reading on this essay? but rather is there a sensible non-pro-war reading of it?
Well, I was against the war (torn, but just barely more against it than for it by H-hour), but I could have written this op-ed (er, were I smarter...and if I knew more...and if I were a better writer...and...oh, you get the picture...). I was happy to see the tyrant deposed, the statue come down, etc. And who could NOT think of liberations past?

The only part of this passage I probably would not have written is this part:
"Liberation--the powerful balm that...erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions."
(Note: these are not drudgelipses--they indicate that I have elided words rather than pages.)
This proposition is almost certainly true--liberation (like success in general) erases lingering doubt and reinforces bold actions--but I wouldn't have written that because it could easily be interpreted to mean that the war was a smart idea, or that this success should embolden us to undertake more actions of this kind in the future.

But that's not what the sentence means.

On the face of it, it's not a claim about what our reactions ought to be, but, rather, a claim about what kind of reactions we tend to have to such events--it, for example, makes us forget our doubts, it doesn't make them unreasonable (so it doesn't make forgetting them reasonable). If we are being urged to do anything here, it is to resist indulging too much in these reactions, to sober up a bit and contemplate the task ahead.

I want to make it clear--on a first read, that's not how I interpreted it (I didn't know how to interpret it)--but we usually don't interpret things correctly on a first read if they are even moderately subtle or complex. And my guess is that what Clark is trying to do here is rather subtle and difficult--he's trying to counsel caution at a time when celebration seems to be in order, and he's trying to do it without sounding like a nattering naybob of negativism.


The rest of the op-ed is consistent with this interpretation. It praises the soldiers who carried out the battle plan, points out the good things about the planning and execution of the war, and notes the rough spots too. It's a sober and balanced assessment of the war, in my opinion. Clark notes problems without carping and dispenses praise when appropriate and without fawning. But there is nothing in it that shows or even strongly suggests that Clark thought that the war was a good idea. (Though there are some passages that can kinda sorta be read that way with a little effort.)


At the end of the essay, Clark does write:
"As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt."

Again, this might rather naturally be taken to indicate approval of the war, but it probably shouldn't be. Resolve in the face of doubt, if it is a virtue at all, is a virtue even when one has undertaken an enterprise in error. (I myself am not sure that it is a virtue at all, but that's probably just one difference between a pointy-headed geek such as myself and a four-star general...) Again, Clark is apparently simply giving credit where credit is due. But saying "you stuck to that project with admirable resolve" obviously does not mean the same thing as "boy, you sure were smart to undertake that project."

And note that Clark continues:
"And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe."
So even (approximately) the resolve Clark has just praised he now characterizes as "almost irrational." So if these two components taken together constitute a compliment, it is (re: Blair at least) a highly attenuated one at best. Hardly unalloyed approval.


And I think that the end of the essay provides reasonably strong confirmation of my reading:
"Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.
Is this victory? Certainly the soldiers and generals can claim success. And surely, for the Iraqis there is a new-found sense of freedom. But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven?t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."

What we have here is probably a case of Mr. Simon seeing what he wanted to see and/or what he expected to see, plus perhaps the effects of political polarization and the pervasive influence of the gotcha atmosphere. And maybe something else I've been meaning to note as well: everything happens so fast in the blogosphere...speed is of the essence...nobody thinks very much about what they write. It's getting to be like academic philosophy--people get famous by saying outrageous things that they haven't really thought through very carefully, and then lots of other people waste their time going through the initial poorly-thought-out position explaining why it's wrong.

Note that I don't mean to insult Mr. Simon here, he's just doing what what's done around these parts. But we should all do less of it.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. The Middle East is part of the problem. Look at the war at home.(nt)
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. it's a nice dream for certain types to claim there is no difference
and ignore just about everything Dems say.

and the proof is in Bill Clinton's involvement and how hard he worked for middle east peace.

and clinton is the "moderate" dem. but anyone who pays attention and cares could see what a huge difference it was between how he handled the issue and how Bush did.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There is a difference, but it doesn't make a big difference here
Clark and Dean and Kerry were all pro-Israel hawks. They've rarely ever criticized that nation's actions in their lifes. They've repeatedly supported the crushing of the Palestinians. None of them are speaking out in any major way now.

It's a reality. A reality is a reality, no matter how much we want to shape it, to turn ignoble opposition into heroes.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Clinton is a "pro israel hawk" also if you go by what you describe
yet he was fully engaged in the area and pushed for peace through diplomacy. there is a huge difference in how things would be if a Democrat was President instead of what we have now. that is the point of the OP .
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. There it is again -- "fully engaged"
How about actions, steps, policies, issues?

He was slightly less interested in crushing Palestinians than Bush, but was generally apathetic to their plight. If you go simply by words and "engagement" alone, then Bush is quite the humanitarian, calling for a Palestinian state.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. according to you Bush is the humanitarian
Fully engaged is part of a step, policy, action etc. Bush's entire non engagement is part of the problem.

you get leaders together and try to work things out. the first and most important step is just getting together so they can discuss ways of working together.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm not seeing any action here
So far I think Kucinich has been the only one here to really call for a stop to the fighting. The Dems have lined up behind Bush on this one, their only criticism that Condi got there too late -- to tell the Israelis they are doing a "heck of a job."
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Kucinich hasn't been able to stop the fighting
the OP'S point was that if the people he named and Democrats in general were in charge, this would not have happened. and i agree with him.

there was a huge difference from how Clinton did things from the way Bush has done it. and Clinton is very pro Israel and even said he would arm himself and go defend them . some people would rather fight about his comments and claim there is no difference, others look at the actual difference between the administrations and how things were done.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. This of course would've happened
Almost no Democrats in Congress have put any initiative on the "Palestinian Question," which is the root of all this. Kucinich I point out because he has addressed Palestinian rights and their struggle.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Hezbollah doesn't care about Palestinians rights and struggles
their aim is to destroy Israel. Israel is doing what it is now because of attacks from Hezbollah and other terrorist groups. their response has been ineffective . but still, it started because of the Hezbollah attacks.

the OPs point was this would not have happened if a Dem was in office and he is right about that.
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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. They are allied to the Palestinian struggle
Israel is doing what it is right now because it repeatedly violated the ceasefire with the Palestinians culminating in the Palestinians finally striking back and taking IDF soldiers. They responded by punishing the civilian population of Palestine, which is why Hezbollah intervened.

This would've happened if the Dems mentioned were in office. They don't give a shit about the Palestinians either, which is why groups like Hezbollah even exist (remember they came about to defend Lebanon during the first Israeli invasion).

Many of the Arabs make heated rhetorical statements about destroying Israel, but it is Israel that has repeatedly crushed and oppressed the Arabs. There is no equivalent to what is being done to Lebanon now to what has ever been done to Israel. It's a rich country, an expanding country that continues to occupy Arabs and kill resistance groups. And that will continue in the future, unfortunately.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Hezbollah only wants to destroy Israel
they don't care about any Palestinian struggle. that's why they hide behind innocent civilians and than cheer when Israel attacks kill the innocent civilians, especially the children.

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DYouth Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Where do you get your history from?
I don't think Olmert or Bush could've put it any better than you did! It's the evil Arabs trying to destroy our Western way of life that must be confronted -- AT ANY COST (to any innocent bystander).


This isn't the actual history of Hezbollah at all, which is not referred to as terrorist by anyone other than the United States and Israel.

I don't agree with much of their political agenda, but they're a little more complicated than "the baddy Arabs out to destroy Israel." They were foremd in the first place to stop the Israel invasion the first time around. Is that not a legitimate thing to do -- defend your people? Or do only Israelis get that right?
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Hezbollah does not represent all Arabs
just as Bush doesn't represent AMericans like myself.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. That was a prolific little troll, wasn't it? nt
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
36. Only Shrub had a fixation with invading Iraq! It has stirred up a
hornests nest in the ME!

I don't know if the 9/11 attacks would have been successful with a different admin. We will never know that! I do know that the Shrub admin. was very deliberately determined to be so much the opposite of Clinton they ignored all the advice that was given to them. They said if Clinton believed it, we won't! That was a very big mistake!

9/11 might have happened no matter who was in the WH, but I do not believe any other admin would have invaded Iraq. I also believe if we weren't in Iraq, this mess between Israel and Lebanon wouldn't be happening.

Shrub has deliberately pi**ed off damn near every country in the World! Unfortunately, I think we're just seeing the beginning of the mess he's created.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kerry, Clark and Dean -- that works for me, but I'd not bypass other
Dems, not only compared with the little hyena in office right now, but in and of themselves. We have an all-star line-up and the Rethugs can't even find the dug-out.

I loved the brutal truth and economy of your sentence, "Bush did nothing."

Ding ding ding on that one.

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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. If's...
"If, if's or buts, were candy and nuts - we'd all have a wonderful christmas,"- author unknown..

Gawd I don't know who I hate more. The President or the pricks that put him an office. Nah It's Ann Coulter
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Recommended. Excellent and important post. nt
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
27. Or Gore. If any of them were Prez, Israel wouldn't be shelling Lebanon.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:05 AM by calmblueocean
They realized that they only had 2 more years of Bush in power, and that the next guy who occupies the office might not let them get away with this.

I'm normally a big defender of Israel, but this is just wrong. And it wouldn't be happening if Bush wasn't president.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you for the constructive post.
:thumbsup:
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. I appreciate that. nt
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
29. If Eisenhower were President...the record...
Interesting history...the power of Presidential Peace Making...

From Answers.Com
Suez Canal crisis


http://tinyurl.com/f5xhg

A major international incident that arose in 1956 from the decision by Gamal A. Nasser of Egypt to nationalize the Suez Canal, which long had been controlled by Great Britain. After Nasser took over the canal, Britain and France induced Israel to provoke a conflict with Egypt that would serve as a pretext for an Anglo-French invasion of Egypt. The United States, which had been excluded from the planned invasion, denounced it. The incident severely damaged Anglo-American relations.



President Dwight D. Eisenhower addressing the nation, February 20, 1957


http://tinyurl.com/jwbov

So tonight I report to you on the matters in controversy and on what I believe the position of the United States must be.

When I talked to you last October, I pointed out that the United States fully realized that military action against Egypt resulted from grave and repeated provocations. But I said also that the use of military force to solve international disputes could not be reconciled with the principles and purposes of the United Nations. I added that our country could not believe that resort to force and war would for long serve the permanent interests of the attacking nations, which were Britain, France and Israel.

So I pledged that the United States would seek through the United Nations to end the conflict. We would strive to bring about a recall of the forces of invasion, and then make a renewed and earnest effort through that Organization to secure justice, under international law, for all the parties concerned.

Since that time much has been achieved and many of the dangers implicit in the situation have been avoided. The Governments of Britain and France have withdrawn their forces from Egypt. Thereby they showed respect for the opinions of mankind as expressed almost unanimously by the 80 nation members of the United Nations General Assembly.


I want to pay tribute to the wisdom of this action of our friends and allies. They made an immense contribution to world order. Also they put the other nations of the world under a heavy obligation to see to it that these two nations do not suffer by reason of their compliance with the United Nations Resolutions. This has special application, I think, to their treaty rights to passage through the Suez Canal which had been made an international waterway for all by the Treaty of 1888.

The Prime Minister of Israel, in answer to a personal communication, assured me early in November that Israel would willingly withdraw its forces if and when there should be created a United Nations force to move into the Suez Canal area. This force was, in fact, created and has moved into the Canal area.

Subsequently, Israeli forces were withdrawn from much of the territory of Egypt which they had occupied. However, Israeli forces still remain outside the Armistice lines. They are at the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba which is about 100 miles from the nearest Israeli territory. They are also in the Gaza Strip which, by the Armistice Agreement, was to be occupied by Egypt. These facts create the present crisis.

We are approaching a fateful moment when either we must recognize that the United Nations is unable to restore peace in this area, or the United Nations must renew with increased vigor its efforts to bring about Israeli withdrawal.

Repeated, but, so far, unsuccessful, efforts have been made to bring about a voluntary withdrawal by Israel. These efforts have been made both by the United Nations and by the United States and other member states.

Equally serious efforts have been made to bring about conditions designed to assure that if Israel will withdraw in response to the repeated requests of the United Nations, there will then be achieved a greater security and tranquility for that nation. This means that the United Nations would assert a determination to see that in the Middle East there will be a greater degree of justice and compliance with international law than was the case prior to the events of last October-November.
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calmblueocean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #29
38. Great post.
Reminds us what real leadership is. Ike knew from firsthand experience that war really was hell, and not just a game. I've always loved this quote of his:

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children....This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from an iron cross."

Can you imagine Bush saying that?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Bush say that :rofl: Great quotation. Thanks!
:hi:
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. *sigh* n/t
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
35. I would like to think they would
you've presented a very sound prescription that can still be pursued, albeit after some cessation of hostilities.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
39. .
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 09:50 PM by oberliner
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
40. If wishes were horses,
or something like that. ;)
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