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Attention Israeli Jews: You Are Currently Sleeping With The Enemy

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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:45 AM
Original message
Attention Israeli Jews: You Are Currently Sleeping With The Enemy
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 05:03 PM by newyawker99
According to the American religious right, some of Israel's most ardent and hawkish supporters, the 6 million jews that died in the Holocaust are ALL burning in hell.

That's right, burning in hell for nothing more than not converting to New Testament Christianity before being slaughtered at the hands of the Nazi's. They also believe that each and every unconverted Jew killed by a Hezbollah rocket or Hamas bus bomb are burning in hell for their beliefs. Regular old heart attacks and stuff? Yep, also believed to be burning forever. Good and righteous person? Same deal. Burning.

Not because they were bad or sinful mind you. Just because they were Jews.

They are so strong in this overtly anti-Semitic view that when it was publicly suggested that Jerry Falwell and John Hagee had accepted the teachings of "dual covenant theology":

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395509016&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Falwell: Jews can get to heaven


By ILAN CHAIM

An evangelical pastor and an Orthodox rabbi, both from Texas, have apparently persuaded leading Baptist preacher Jerry Falwell that Jews can get to heaven without being converted to Christianity.

Televangelist John Hagee and Rabbi Aryeh Scheinberg, whose Cornerstone Church and Rodfei Sholom congregations are based in San Antonio, told The Jerusalem Post that Falwell had adopted Hagee's innovative belief in what Christians refer to as "dual covenant" theology.

This creed, which runs counter to mainstream evangelism, maintains that the Jewish people has a special relationship to God through the revelation at Sinai and therefore does not need "to go through Christ or the Cross" to get to heaven.




which state that by virtue of being God's choden people, they were automatically admitted to heaven, that they went out of their way to reiterate their belief that all Jews that do not accept Jesus as savior burn in hell for eternity:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1139395523403

Hagee, Falwell deny endorsing 'dual covenant'


By JPOST.COM STAFF

Pastors John Hagee and Jerry Falwell have both denied a report in The Jerusalem Post earlier this week that they embrace the "dual covenant" theology, which holds that Jews are saved through a special relationship with God and so need not become Christians to get to heaven.

In a statement to the Post, the Texas-based televangelist Hagee said that neither he nor Southern Baptist pastor Falwell "believe or teach Dual Covenant."

Hagee added that he had "made it a practice for 25 years not to target Jews for conversion" at any "Night to Honor Israel" events. If Jews "inquire about our faith at a later time, we give them a full scriptural presentation of redemption."

He stressed that "regardless of the response from the Jewish person, we remain friends in support of the State of Israel as required by scripture."

Falwell, meanwhile, posted a statement on his website to the effect that he believes "all people - Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Jews, Muslims, etc." must accept Jesus in order to enter heaven.

Falwell highlighted his strong support of the State of Israel and his "love" for the Jewish people - "the chosen people of God." He went on to "reaffirm that I am a Zionist in terms of Israel's entitlement to its homeland.

More at link:

-

Some additional links for the interested:
by Jerry Falwell
A GRACIOUS CORRECTION OF THE JERUSALEM POST - http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=12741

Falwell denies Post story, says Jews need Christ for salvation
- http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22767

Falwell corrects report on Jews' 'dual covenant' - http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20060311/ai_n16149633

Dual-covenant theology
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-covenant_theology



What is my point you ask? My point is that allying onesself with a group that openly believes you are doomed to eternal torment simply for being jews is like accepting the backing of the KKK. I understand that Israel is surrounded by nations that are hostile to them. I understand that it is American support that keeps them holding on. However, if to maintain that support, you must align yourselves with the openly anti-Semitic (not to mention the neocon cabal in Washington), you are selling out your own religious and cultural values, the reason that you are there in the first place.

Please, do not keep compromising your culture and religion for the support of those that would see you converted by Jesus or wiped out and sent to hell by him. Do not ally yourselves with those that believe that all of Hitler's 6 million victims are burning in hell for being Jews when they died. That is little better aligning yourselves with vehement Holocaust deniers. There is very little difference in the anti-semitism they promote.
---------------------------------------------
EDIT: COPYRIGHT. PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5
PARAGRAPHS FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS SOURCE
PER DU RULES.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. I love the posts that start with
"On this ONE issue George Bush gets it right"
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. One could say the same thing about the Arabs. They too have a special
relationship with God through Ishmael as God spoke to Hagar.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Would you trust your soul to a guy who looks like Jerry Foulwill?


Me neither!
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. your initial premise is flawed...

just because the religious right supports Israel does NOT automatically mean Israeli (or American/European/whatever) Jews automatically consider themselves "allied" with them...

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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Do They Openly Accept Their Support?
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 09:11 AM by DistressedAmerican
Donations, political lobbying, etc?

:shrug:

They are certainly not opposed to their support. Nor do they reject it.

Sounds like allies to me. Allies support each other and accept each other's support.

Can you tell me how they are not allies?
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maalak Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Re: Do They Openly Accept Their Support?
how do "Israeli Jews" accept their "donations, political lobbying, etc"?

perhaps i misunderstood... but it sounds like the subject of the original post is directed quite broadly at the Jewish people of Israel...



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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Easy. Just a few examples of many.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 09:37 AM by DistressedAmerican
John Hagee's Exodus II project to fund relocation of Jews to Israel:
http://www.jhm.org/exodus2.asp

Become a Part of Biblical Prophecy

For I will take you out of the nations: I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. Ezekiel 36:24 (NIV)

Through John Hagee Ministries, Christians are joining forces with the Jewish people to rescue Jews from all around the world who wish to relocate to Israel. To date, John Hagee Ministries has donated pin excess of $8.5 million to bring Jews from around the world to Israel. We have done this with the generous help of our partners throughout the Western Hemisphere.

As Christians, we must recognize the critical importance of the Jewish people in God’s plan for us all. We must, in direct fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, help bring God’s people home to Israel.


======================================

Hagee's page on why evangelicals should support Israel:
http://www.jhm.org/support-israel.asp

======================================

One week old BBC article on Hagee's lobbying efforts in Washington:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5193092.stm

======================================

Evangelical Christians plead for Israel
By Richard Allen Greene
BBC News, Washington


Delegates believe it is vital to campaign on behalf of Israel
A week into one of the most severe crises the Middle East has seen in years, Israel is getting an influx of support from an unusual source.

More than 3,400 evangelical Christians have arrived in Washington to lobby lawmakers as part of the first annual summit of Christians United for Israel.

Delegates have come from all 50 states and have 280 meetings on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, Pastor John Hagee said.

Pastor Hagee, the main organiser, said the event was the first of its kind.

"For the first time in the history of Christianity in America, Christians will go to the Hill to support Israel as Christians," he said.


======================================

NPR article on the same:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5554303

All Things Considered, July 17, 2006 · An Evangelical pastor from San Antonio has set out to form the first Christian political-action committee dedicated entirely to supporting the state of Israel. Pastor John Hagee hopes it will become the most powerful pro-Israel lobbying group in America. This week, Hagee and thousands of leading pro-Israel Evangelicals will come to Washington, D.C., to make their case before Congress.

======================================

Haaretz on the support I am talking about:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/701583.html

New Christian pro-Israel lobby aims to be stronger than AIPAC

By Shlomo Shamir

NEW YORK - Televangelist John Hagee told Jewish community leaders over the weekend that the 40 million evangelical Christians in the United States support Israel and that he plans to utilize this power to help Israel by launching a Christian pro-Israel lobby.

The lobby is slated to launch in July, during a Washington conference in which hundreds of American evangelicals are slated to participate, Hagee said at a meeting of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, which represents 52 national Jewish groups. He also discussed the lobby with Israel's consul general in New York, Aryeh Mekel.

Hagee said his group would be a Christian - and more powerful - version of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a large pro-Israel lobby, and would target senators and congressmen on Capitol Hill. A quarter of congressmen are evangelicals, and many American legislators represent regions that include a large evangelical population, he said.


=======================================
And that is just Hagee's folks. I could go on and on. Just google a few evangelicals and you will find the programs and fundraising in full swing. Pretty much the whole of the evangelical movement shares these beliefs.

I have never seen anyone, Israeli jew or Israeli government reject these efforts on their behalf.

Care to show me even one rejection from the Israeli government of average Israeli citizens that decry this support in the grounds of who it is coming from or their anti-semitic motivations?
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Didn't Mean To Run You Off After Just 3 Posts.
I was wondering what your logic was.

I still do not get the argument you were trying to make.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I was talking about your soul!


Dude, do you trust your soul to just anyone, with a good line of bullshit and a trumped up doctor's degree, from some snake handling school, that may or may not support the KKK?

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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Surely a person of the cloth, would never bullshit any serious...
pilgrim, Right?



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That could never happen...
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. Don't feel all bad or anything.
Who gives a rat's ass what the RW fundies spew. I'm an atheist and couldn't care less what these bloviating creatures utter.

BTW, Israel gets ENORMOUS financial and political support from these cretins, and now we are supposed to feel all sorry for Israeli Jews because these puss-filled nabobs say Jews are going to hell?

Give up on the martyr crap for a few decades, will ya? I doesn't fly anymore.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Where'd I Suggest We Should Feel Sorry For Anyone?
Who gives a shit? Hopefully the people who they are condemning? They should anyway. that is the whole point of the OP. I was saying that their acceptance of the support is no better than taking a fundraising check from the Klan.

I do not recall anything about feeling sorry for them.

I'm an athiest too. I think they are both wrong. But, I would not wish them eternally punished for being wrong.

I really do not get this reply. Help me out.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. My post wasn't really directed at you
I suppose it was in anticipation of the regulars who drop by to complain about Fundies saying nasty things about the Jewish people, but who are at the same time happy to accept their monetary and political support.

peace.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. No Problem.
Peace to you as well! :toast:
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. So...what exactly are the Israelis supposed to do?
Stop accepting US support because Falwell is an asshole?

I don't think Israelis consider themselves aligned with Evangelicals.

Does everyone here realize that Republican support of Israel is a relatively new phenomenom? DEMOCRACTS historically are the strongest supporters of Israel.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Simple. Reject Their Support And Speak Out Against Their Motives.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 10:07 AM by DistressedAmerican
At least at the level of the individual fundie churches and lobbying groups.

It really does not matter if they consider themselves allied. They accept the support of anti-semities without a word of protestation about where the money comes from. That makes them allied to the Evangelicals whether they see it that way or not.

Objective reality over financially and politically motivated perception.

Certaily the examples I cited above are real world examples of the kind of support they take without a word, becomming complicit in the hateful ideology of the evangelicals for their cash and political influence.

Sad.

If the KKK was taking up donations to move Jews to Israel would anyone in the country accept the money? If so, the problem is worse than I thought.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Excellent advice
I also wish our own congresscritters would speak out against the TaliBornAgains, but that won't happen anytime soon.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Lest anyone think this is a joke or something to scoff at, let me bring
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 05:13 PM by newyawker99
to your attention some recent activities and attendees of the most recent Hagee/CUFI event in DC, and how political this really is:

What a ‘Night to Honor Israel! The beginning of this week’s CUFI Washington/Israel summit.

There were more 3,400 charismatic Christians and Baptists, dancing in the aisles, cheering all the speakers, singing both the US National anthem and Hatikva in Hebrew with the Cornerstone Church singers and orchestra playing stirring Israeli songs, waving Jerusalem, Israeli and American flags. It was stupendous...The CUFI gathering was an amazing organizational effort and tribute to Pastor John Hagee, his wife Diana and Pastor Matthew Hagee of the Cornerstone Church in San Antonio Texas, Jim Hutchens, Gary Bauer, Stephen Borg, executive director, a Jew and many others.

~snip~

Hagee and more than 400 Christian leaders had gathered in Washington on February 7, 2006 to announce what many call the ‘Christian AIPAC’ ...

~snip~

Hagee read greetings from President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Olmert. Bush commented: “G_d bless and stand by the people of Israel and G_d bless the United States.”

Olmert’s letter referred to the CUFI groups “bold stand at this crisis time,” and the group’s acknowledgement of Israel’s biblical ‘birthright’.

The brilliant array of speakers at the CUFI dinner cut a board ecumenical swath across the political landscape in Washington. Ambassador Daniel Ayalon –a former IDF armored force Captain and diplomat spoke and brought greetings and recognition of friendship to the assembled CUFI delegates. Later former IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Moshe ‘Bogie Ya’alon would speak of Israel’s abiding friendship with America and the Christian community support for its defense and positions against disengagement.

U.S. Senators, Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum and Bronx Congressman Elliot Engel, author of the Syrian Accountability Act presented brief but telling remarks, as did Gary Bauer. Bauer in particular is so passionate that it radiates throughout the entire vast room. I had written of hearing him speak at another impressive occasion, the awards dinner of the International Federation of Christian and Jews last September that Brigitte Gabriel and I had also attended.


More at link:


http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1892


Also, Barbara Ledeen, Michael Ledeen's wife, works for Rick Santorum. See some details on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1716530#1718718

Of interest in that post, to, is the article written back in the 80's by Michael and Barbara Ledeen, about the Christian and Israeli extremists on both sides. Here's an excerpt:

A CASUAL OBSERVER might be excused for believing that nearly all of the recent violence in Israel has been part of the usual cycle of Arab-Israeli conflict. The observer would be wrong. Though some of the recent acts ... seem to be the work of extremist Israeli nationalists, much of the destructive intent is fueled by a mixture of nationalist politics, messianic longing, and the search for roots. In fact, some of the current extremism is a direct outgrowth of the ancient forecast of the Apocalypse... The targets of the most spectacular incidents over the past months have been Muslim authorities and the area they control in Jerusalem, but for the most part the people who planned or participated in the attacks are the violent fringe of an informal movement that stretches from the United States to the Middle East, and encompasses millions of evangelical Christians as well as some Israeli Jews. This unlikely coalition rests upon a common belief that the Final Days are upon us. For the Christians, this means that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent; for the Jews, the Messiah is about to arrive. Both believe that the crucial spot for the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, because that is where the Temple of Solomon is to be rebuilt. According to the fundamentalist understanding of Christian prophecy, three great events are required for the Second Coming: Israel must be a Jewish nation; Jerusalem must be a Jewish city; and the Temple must be rebuilt. Today only the third condition remains to be met. Though most Jews believe that the building of the Temple will occur after the arrival of the Messiah, a growing number of deeply religious Jews believe that efforts to rebuild the Temple, and other steps for its proper functioning, should be made before the Messianic Age.

~snip~

Historically, messianic movements tend to be strongest in periods of intense internal turmoil and external threat. Both of these elements are present in contemporary Israel, and the Israelis' anxieties are largely shared by the American "Christian Zionists." All we know about the Temple Mount suggests that it will grow in interest and become a source of conflict, with international consequences that are hard to predict. Up until the arrests of the twenty-five extremists, the Israeli government either ignored the Temple Mount movement or attempted to co-opt it, but neither approach was successful. It remains to be seen whether the arrests will dampen the ardor of the zealots. With the redemption of mankind and the fulfillment of prophecy at stake, arrests are transformed into temporary setbacks, extremism becomes righteous action, and political considerations pale into such insignificance that even conservative Christians and radical Jewish nationalists can become allies.



Source Citation: Ledeen, Michael, and Barbara Ledeen. "The Temple Mount plot: what do Christian and Jewish fundamentalists have in common?." The New Republic 190 (June 18, 1984): 20(4). It is from Lexis-Nexis so I have no link.

Being a Machiavellian neoconservative extraordinaire, it is of interest to me that Ledeen has written on this subject. He knows how using religiosity can stir and move the masses.

And finally, some more details on CUFI, Hagee's 'new' group. The first CUFI was formed in the 70's by this guy, David A. Lewis:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:8aq4XdrSJacJ:www.davidallenlewis.com/CUFI%2520FAQ.htm+david+allen+lewis+hagee&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3

He's given permission to Hagee to use the same name, but their organizations are not the same, although they have similar purposes and goals.

Lewis' CUFI requirements for membership hold that:

Members of C.U.F.I. must agree on the seven statements which follow:

1. The Bible is the Word of God (2 Timothy 2:16)

2. God owns the whole world (Psalm 24:1; 50:12; 1 Corinthians 10:26).

3. God can give any portion of the world to whomever He desires (Deuteronomy 32:8 and Acts 17:26)

4. God has given the land of Israel to the Jewish people (Genesis 12:1-7; 15:18; Deuteronomy 1:8)

5. Christians should cooperate with the plan of God.

A. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122)

B. Actively participate in the plan of God (James 1:22)

6. Christians should combat anti-Semitism (Genesis 27:29)

7. To be pro-Israel is NOT to be anti-Arabic. We must show compassion and concern to all men everywhere (Acts 10:34-35)



Hagee requirements are less clear, but he did say this:

Hagee said his group would be a Christian - and more powerful - version of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a large pro-Israel lobby, and would target senators and congressmen on Capitol Hill. A quarter of congressmen are evangelicals, and many American legislators represent regions that include a large evangelical population, he said.

Hagee - the founder and senior pastor of the evangelical Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas, that claims an active membership of more than 18,000 - said the lobby's activities would be a "political earthquake."

In his meeting with Mekel, Hagee said he planned to establish an effective network of key activists across the United States who can be reached within 24 hours if necessary for emergency lobbying efforts. He said he has already appointed 12 regional directors who are to be responsible for lobby activities in their areas and that he plans to appoint representatives in every state and major city.

Hagee also said he would head a delegation of 500 evangelicals slated to visit Israel this summer.

"The evangelical population's support of Israel is very important," said Mekel yesterday.

The Israeli ambassador to the United States, Danny Ayalon, responded in a similar fashion while discussing the new lobby in February.





http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/701583.html



More here on who is involved:

The Hagee/DeLay/Netanyahu connection

Hagee's political druthers and religious vision were on full display at the 2002 edition of "A Night to Honor Israel." The keynote speaker at the event was Texas Rep. Tom DeLay, the then majority leader of the House of Representatives. In full pre- indictment swagger, DeLay praised "President Bush's moral clarity," and reiterated his opposition to giving up land to the Palestinians.

"I've stood on the Golan," DeLay said. "When I looked to the southwest, I don't see occupied territory. I see Israel. I've walked on the streets of Jerusalem. I've been to Judea and Samaria."

The Texas Observer reported that "At the climax of the evening, Hagee presented a giant cardboard check for $1.5 million to the President and CEO of the United Jewish Communities," to be used for Russian Jews to Israel. Hagee believes that bringing Jews to Israel will help to fulfill the biblical prophecy of 'the beginning of the end.'"

Instead of the Book of Revelations, talk of statecraft -- radical Christian Republican-style -- dominated. Together Hagee, DeLay, and Netanyahu hit similar points: Jerusalem belongs to Israel; the west bank belongs to Israel; the Temple Mount belongs to Israel; the U.S. Embassy should be in Jerusalem not Tel Aviv; Yasser Arafat is a terrorist with whom one cannot negotiate; and unconditional support for Israel is the only option. As Hagee repeatedly noted, "Israel is the only nation on earth created by a sovereign act of God."



http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:AaVN-dz1ed0J:www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0604/S00212.htm+john+hagee+george+bush&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


Lastly, TheocracyWatch.org keeps an eye on what representatives have connections to various religious organizations, and has a wealth of information: http://www.theocracywatch.org/govern.htm
http://www.theocracywatch.org/introduction2.htm
http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm

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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. These people are insane. Totally insane.
Hagee's proximity to our government is way too frightening for words.

How the hell can we stop this?
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. I am not sure, but
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 01:17 PM by Emit
I did contact the woman who runs TheocracyWatch.org two years ago, when I started connecting the dots about the Religious Right and how influential they've become with US government. Here is our correspondence:


I wrote:

At 03:59 PM 9/14/2004
I stumbled upon your website in my frantic search to find answers to the ominous and overwhelming feelings that I have about our current administration and the upcoming elections. I was aware of the religious right's influence, but until I read your site, I had no idea the extent of this and the potential ramifications. Your site and others, as well as numerous books that I have read recently, brought me to the doorsteps of my local Democratic Party office to volunteer.

My question is, because I don't have an audience to bring this information to at present, can you tell me if any other agencies or people in the Northern Nevada or Reno, Nevada area are involved with your group? If not, are there agencies, churches, etc. that I can e-mail or speak with which might receive your site with the same interest and concern that I have? I do not attend church, but have several friends of all denominations. I really feel, especially in rural areas throughout the west, that the current relationship between religion and politics, specifically the religious right and the Republicans, as your site shows, is an essential part of this current election. Yet, so very few people in high places (media, campaigns, community leaders, etc.) are talking about it. The subject almost seems taboo, with all the recent anti-semitism that gets charged against those, for example, who speak up about our foreign policy and support of Israel.

Please let me know if I can bring your program to my community by perhaps putting it in the lap of someone in a better political, educational or religious leader. Otherwise, at the very least, I tell everyone I can about your studies, and I guess my attempts at grassroots efforts will have to suffice for now. After the November elections, regardless of the outcomes, I am in this race for the marathon, not just the sprint. Perhaps at some time in the future I will have the time, position or courage to attempt to offer your training program under the guise of some community program. Thank you for your site, all the work you and your colleagues have put into this, and for posting it to make those of us on the other side of the US more aware of your message.


And her response:

Dear Emit,

I was very moved by your email, and I appreciate your commitment. I have a couple of thoughts. Americans United for Separation of Church and State (au.org) have chapters around the country. You might want to get in touch with them.

We have DVDs available for groups to watch and discuss. One was made in 1982 -- produced by Norman Lear -- and it's very powerful. It's even more relevant today than in 1982. We have it available on our web site. (Let me know if you can't find it). It's called "Liberty and Justice for All Who Believe." That DVD is about 30 minutes. There are two DVDs of me giving a powerpoint presentation. The first is a talk I've been giving all year, and the second was just made (just handed to me today in fact.) The first is called "Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party." The new one, not yet on the web site is called "Are We Becoming a Theocracy? How Dominion Theology is Subverting the U.S. Constitution." You can show the DVDs to friends, or get them aired on your public access TV if you have a station. I hope that helps for now. Nevada is a critical state this November.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Joan Bokaer


Since this email exchange, I've talked with several clergy in my area and passed on this info, joined -- by email-- several agencies for separation of church and state as she suggested (there are none directly in my area), and pass on this info to everyone I know and many people I meet. I write letter to the editor -- and have to word them very carefully so as not to come off so hyperbole, and, of course, I've written my reps -- probably to no avail because one of my reps is John Ensign, who is part of "The Family" see: http://www.theocracywatch.org/secret_theocrats.html


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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't know whether to laugh, cry, or just shake my head...
...and roll my eyes about this. OMFG.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. "Zion's Christian Soldiers" (CBS 60 minutes)
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Did Christ ever say "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem?" Not flame bait but
I find Falwell's and many evangelicals adherance to the OT mind boggling since Christ is the model for Christians. It may be in the Bible that Christ said this but I haven't found it yet.
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. Somebody posted a link on John Hagee's bio. Anyone have it?
i believe the bio indicated that he is thrice married, divorced the first time because of andulterous affair with his secretary, and the second divorce was for another reason not very Christian-like. I only glanced at the original post but now I am curious.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Here's some info
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:cXwZ9yn0ipAJ:www.broadcaster.org/wolves/wolf-003.pdf+john+hagee+divorced&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

WOLVES IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING AND HIRELINGS A collection of articles exposing and warning against false evangelists, unfaithful shepherds, and treacherous religious leaders... A number of sources report that in 1975, Hagee, then pastor of a charismatic congregation (which later became TrinityChurch) in San Antonio and the father of two children, became divorced, resigned, and married a young woman in the congregation, Diana Castro, with custody of the children going tohis his ex-wife, Martha. The same sources report that, in a letter to the church, Hagee admitted immorality, and that the letter became part of the court records in the custody battle.
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Thanks
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. Jews, especially Israeli, should be gifting the world with non-oil future
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:53 PM by EVDebs
energy technology. The 'jihad' is being funded with oil money, which we pay here in the West to provide funding to the radical Islamists in Saudi Arabia and Iran etc.

If Israelis could get the media to point out that the world's oil will run out by around 2031 or before and that the future in the Arab world is bleak without alternatives that they could be providing, then maybe the Arab and Islamic world would listen and say to themselves, hey, instead of attacking those Israelis, we might do better to just leave them alone and get on with making our lives less miserable...

Israel and the US have zinc air fuel cell capability along with other technology that the world's media should be concentrating on.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. Didn't Falwell say the antichrist was going to be a Jew ? Anything
else on this anomaly ?
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Az_lefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. He certainly did...
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Maiden England Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
26. I'd say it was more like using fools
If the evangelicals want to ply Israel with a sh*t pot full of money, then let them. As far as the Jewish point of view regarding evangelicals thinking the Jews are going to hell, well, considering Jews don't believe in hell, I'm sure they don't give two hoots.
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theboss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. I agree
If someone wants to give me money and support because they think it's part of God's plan, what do I care? Israel is not beholded to the Evangelicals. If anything, Israel is taking advantage of them.
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