This is amazing to me, Hizbollah inflects HEAVY casualties on Israel, then

[Nimrod2005]

Rice says she favors "urgently ending" the violence, then Ehud Olmert says he wants a "2" kilometers Hizbollah free zone??? :wtf:

Here is what we have so far:

1) Hizbollah is NOT going to be wiped out anytime soon or ever
2) Hizbollah puts up a real fight against Israel and shines in the Arab streets as the only Arab entity who have been able to take on Israel and inflect pain, making them stronger
3) Israel having a lousy/stupid 2 KM Hizabollah free zone? which is much less than Israel had in the 80s and 90s, making it less safe, and giving Hizbollah plenty of reason to attack their soldiers because they are on their land...etc.
4) The country of Lebanon and its people got fucked? for what then?

Just more blood on Israeli hands and a reason to create more Hizbollah and Osamas?

Reading this article makes you think this whole thing was a pretend bullshit, just like Bush's Iraq war. There is a no there there...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/26/D8J3MOL00.html

[Tyler Durden]

1. I wonder if Beireut was sucking tourist dollars from Haifa.

A beach is a beach. Maybe a cheap daquairi on the Lebanese shore was sucking bucks from Israeli tourism...

Not really, but with bucks making the bang everywhere else, one can only wonder.

[chimpymustgo]

3. Tyler, had NOT thought of that. It could be a factor. Makes as much

sense as anything else. Cause this carnage and destruction makes NO SENSE to anyone with any sense of humanity. Israel has never been able to defeat Hezbollah, and it won't this time. All that has been accomplished is murder and destruction of Lebanon - and the shutdown of the tourism season.

[Nimrod2005]

8. Funny you say that - Lebanese always say Israel does not like

competition next door...not only tourism, but also trade, transit between Europe/West and Asia/East, Israel bombed ports too...the first day I think.

[Tyler Durden]

11. Why else bomb airports, bridges and hospitals, etc?

Name the last time you saw a "Hizbollah Jet Fighter/Transport/Airliner" land a Beireut airport. So why crater the runways?

I'm beginning to think EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE is about the money.

WORLD SOCIALISM! RIGHT FUCKING NOW!

[On the Road]

28. A Lot of it May be Administrative Inertia and Hidebound Military Thought

If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

If you ask a council of generals for a solution to a border problem, the response is likely to be planning a military operation. There's nothing especially unusual about the tactics used, it's just unwarranted and directed at the wrong party. The US destroyed a lot of Serbian bridges and airfields in the Kosovo war. The difference is if the photos are any indication, Israel is being more reckless with human life by firing at large apartment buildings and other civilian targets.

The physicist Freeman Dyson, who helped plan the allied bombing of Eastern Europe in WWII, attributed a lot of unecessary civilian deaths to the fact that they were softer targets and to administrative inertia in continuing the same tactics long after they became unecessary. Bloodlust is not necessary for atrocities. It can be the result of rigidity, groupthink, paranoia, and following one's predecessors.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. Both sides are nuts. But one nut has larger shells and fruit

[sandnsea]

4. On #3

They need a zone where rockets can't reach northern Israel, that's all. Israeli troops wouldn't secure the zone, the UN would. It's not a proposal to go back to the same failed policies of the 80's and 90's so I don't get the complaint. I also don't get the acceptance of a group whose mission is nothing but killing Jews.

[Nimrod2005]

9. Yes, but they are bombing Hiafa itself, that's 30 miles away

How will 2 kilometers make any difference?

[sandnsea]

14. I think

That they generally don't stike at Haifa. They shoot at jets and the rockets fall in the northern section. If they backed them off the northern border region, then the jets and troops could patrol the border without these cross-border attacks happening.

[Tyler Durden]

23. You can't hit a jet with a Katyusha Rocket.

They are unguided, bombardment missiles designed in 1942, with a 11-17 mile range, similar to throwing a very large hand grenade a long way.

Do you have any idea how silly it sounds, using a Katyusha to shoot at jets, especially since you can buy Stingers in the bazaars of Kabul, which are DESIGNED to do this?

Your AIPAC is showing.

[sandnsea]

27. Oh, so Hezbollah is actually targeting northern Israel?

They aren't shooting at jets like they've been saying???

[Tyler Durden]

29. You know something?

You can oppose this slaughter in Lebanon without being anti-Semitic.

By the way, Arabs are Semites, too.

AND, I suppose those Hizbollah camps on the runway at Beireut airport are all taken care of now.

Do you oppose the killing in Iraq? If so, why are air strikes on CITIES in Lebanon OK with you?

You REALLY need to examine your motivation.

[sandnsea]

32. That wasn't the subject

The subject was a buffer zone and rockets launched at Israel. I never said anything about Israel bombing Beirut or anti-semitism or anything else. You seem to gone off the track here.

[Tyler Durden]

12. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SUPPORTING HIZBOLLAH!!!

GOD DAMN IT!!!

It has EVERYTHING to do with NOT setting sovereign states back 50 years and bombing the shit out of INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

WHAT about this attitude do you not get?

[sandnsea]

17. I said "acceptance"

I did not say support. I do not get the acceptance expressed in the OP #1 point, the acquiesence to terrorism. Oh well, nothing we can do about Hezbollah, shucky darn. That's what I said.

[Tyler Durden]

19. You know what? There IS nothing we can do about Hizbollah.

Shucky darn.

This is a MIDDLE EAST ISSUE, as are all issues in the Middle East MIDDLE EAST ISSUES.

Shit, why don't we invite Germany or Britain to weigh in on the lastest Soft Timber Free Trade agreement between us and Canada?

IT IS TIME WE FIGURED OUT THAT SOME THINGS IN OTHER COUNTRIES ARE NONE OF OUR GOD DAMNED BUSINESS, or we can institute some sort of One World Government and THEN it becomes our business.

We have INVITED terrorists to victimize us through our support of THEIR ENEMIES when such support was utterly unnecessary, except to extend or hegemony.

[sandnsea]

26. We do not and can not live in a bubble

I honestly don't know why people choose to pull the wool over their own eyes on the realities of a global market place and simple sharing of the planet. We have to do something about terrorists and WMD proliferation, we can't just lock the door and pull down the shades and say to hell with everybody else.

And the rest of the world DOES weigh in on timber agreements -
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/het/softwood/WTO.htm

[Tyler Durden]

30. They COMMENT. They don't send Canada OR US missiles.

OR BILLIONS in foreign aid.

As far as WMD's go, if you believe IRAQ, IRAN or ANYONE IN THAT AREA other than ISRAEL is sporting nukes, you REALLY are posting on the wrong site.

No offense, but I don't have to support Israel. They kill CIVILIANS, as does HIZBOLLAH and the UNITED STATES MILITARY.

Frankly, I don't support ANY of them. And shame on you if you do.

[sandnsea]

31. Uh, we aren't shooting at each other, doh

If we were, you'd find the world community doing a whole lot more than commenting. But the point is, you said stay out of their business as if we could just buy oil and ignore everything that goes on in the ME, ignore it as they push Israel into the ocean. Shame on you for not caring about that.

[MadHound]

38. Then if that is their stated objective,

They're going to need a zone the size of Lebanon itself, and any strip 2km wide is going to make absolutely zero difference on who in Israel gets hit where.

Quite frankly I don't think Israel has any clue as to what they want, other than the destruction of Hezbollah and, apparently Lebanon along with it. They have constantly been moving the goal posts as to what it would take to bring about an end to this war. At first it simply the return of the two soldiers(something that Israel has negotiated for in the past). Then it was for Hezbollah to disarm, then they wanted the destruction of Hezbollah, adding later that they also wanted to destroy the infrastructure that supports Hezbollah(which interestingly enough is also Lebanon's infrastructure). And now they want a 2km buffer zone on top of that, for absolutely no good reason.

Quite frankly I think that Israel wants to grind Hezbollah and anybody else who is in the line of fire right into the ground, or as Israel's opponents have said time and again, drive them into the sea. Sad to see a country become that which it most feared and hated.

[malaise]

5. Israel gets the Litani river

which is the well stated goal from way back when.
Add.

[chimpymustgo]

15. Malaise, do you have a map on this? It's all about water, money, trade...

geez

[malaise]

25. Here are some maps and links

Here are more than a few


http://images.google.com/images?q=+Litani+river&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2741641

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1698430

Note:Leaflets urging residents in southern Lebanon to leave their homes and move north of the Litani River, 25 miles (40 kilometers) from the Israeli border, have been dropped in the region, the IDF said.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/21/mideast/index.html

More to the point, an officer in Israel's Northern Command, who dealt with Haddad extensively, claims that the Lebanese major made perfectly clear to the Israelis that "We will cooperate with you, but there are two subjects which are taboo - our land and our water" (interview, October 1991). Nevertheless, the then Chief of Staff Ezer Weizman (Chaim Weizmann's nephew) was berated by a member of the Knesset after the operation for not seizing the Litani: "Your uncle knew at the time the historic significance of the Litani," M.K. Cohen shouted (cited in Hof 1985, 24).

In the 1982 operation, the Litani was again the initially stated objective
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/80859e/80859E07.htm

[chimpymustgo]

39. Thanks, Malaise...worth a thousand words. But backed up, indeed, by

their statements:

-snip-

Nevertheless, the then Chief of Staff Ezer Weizman (Chaim Weizmann's nephew) was berated by a member of the Knesset after the operation for not seizing the Litani: "Your uncle knew at the time the historic significance of the Litani," M.K. Cohen shouted (cited in Hof 1985, 24).

-snip-

[Little Star]

18. The Latani River Basin

I have yet to hear anyone say that Israel is not after it. Although I know little about it, it strikes me as being odd that no one denies the accusation. I question the twenty mile,or so, buffer zone which ends somewhere around the Latani. I also have questions of why they want to push back to the other side of the Latani and have someone hold the line.

[Igel]

21. How so?

The part of the Litani that has useful water is a good 20 kilometers from the Israeli border.

Two kilometers is significantly less than 20.

They're not really even close yet to the seasonal part of a significant Litani tributary. They may move in that direction ... but big whoop.

[Jacobin]

6. Israel's leadership appears to be about as effectual as ours

:-(

[Nimrod2005]

10. Bingo, that's my point...Who is giving these people foreign policy

advice? Wolfowitz?

[Jacobin]

16. Why yes, I believe you are right

Neo-cons

[BuyingThyme]

35. Same people.

[parkia00]

7. I think the IDF just realised...

pok a much larger bite than they could actually chew. They expected resistence to somewhat like the Palentinians could muster up. In essence a "cakewalk". GO in clear Hez and smoke them out and come back to a hero's welcome and Olmert get karma from his people for a job well done. The IDF just got reminded what's like to do battle with a well trained, armed and determined foe that had years to dig in. Like to day, suffering 14 +- casualities to attempt to take a portion of one single town was a real shocker. I'm sure it was a real eye opener to the leadership as to what kind of casualities the IDF will take if they venture even deeper into Southern Lebanon. Thay tasted the cake and didn't like it at all.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

13. How about a 2 km IDF free zone on the Israeli side of the border?

Or, a 10 mile DMZ - 5 miles into each country?

Or, how about a free and contiguous Palestinian State?

[Nimrod2005]

20. Good points....

[anewdeal]

34. That would not prevent rockets from being fired into Israel

so all those suggestions are useless.

[sandnsea]

37. It would expose excuses

The excuse is that they're shooting at airplanes that patrol the border. If Hezbollah is moved off the border, then the rationalization about these rocket attacks goes away. If they aren't on the border they also have no excuse to come in contact with Israeli troops patrolling the border. It eliminates all the supposed border protection excuses that Hezbollah has been using for years now.

[Ganja Ninja]

22. 2km? A couple of days ago it was 20km.

Maybe someone's starting to realize they've stepped in it.

[yurbud]

24. PROBLEM: If Israel succeeds in wiping out Hezbollah or Hamas or....

all they will do is change the faces on the other side as happened when they chased the PLO out of Lebanon.

So long as the underlying grievances exist, the people with the grievances will coalesce into some form of resistance, as Americans are beginning to realize with our 'War on Terror.'

We probably put a serious dent in al Qaeda when we went into Afghanistan, but someone is still fighting us there, and though al Qaeda was not a major factor in the Iraqis resistence, people came together in other ways to fight us.

There is no superpower like the Soviet Union backing Israel's enemies anymore.

Saudi depends on the US for military weapons and even to protect the royal family from their own people. If we told them to, they would accept any permanent settlement of the Israel/Palestine issue.

If Israel was in any danger of being overrun, the American people would demand that at the very least we withdraw military aid from the Arab countries attacking and likely would want some level of intervention.

[anewdeal]

33. reply

1. The Nazi's were once the most powerful force in the world and they were wiped out, Hizbollah can be wiped out as well.

3. It is not Hizbollah land, it is Lebanon's land. The safe zone needs to be close to 100 km to protect Israel.

4. The country of Lebanon is getting hurt because their government has been unable to control its own borders.

[warrens]

36. I think they must WANT WWIII

And we're co-conspirators. Like, Israel and the U.S. think they'll WIN the war. Even outnumbered by about 30 to 1.