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The Bastard1 Donating Member (112 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:44 AM
Original message
Let's Complicate Some Issues
via Bring It On!

One thing that would really improve political discourse, and maybe even lead to some better results, would be for all of us to stop oversimplifying issues. Our culture has fallen into a bad habit of trying to turn nearly every subject into a simple duality, with two opposite positions and no gray areas, no third or fourth or fifth possibilities, no troubling ambiguities. It makes life easier in the short run. We don’t have to think, all we have to do is try to yell louder than the obviously evil or crazy people on the other side. But it doesn’t work most of the time. There aren’t many issues that are really that simple, because if they were, they wouldn’t be issues. The only way either liberals or conservatives can turn them into such exercises in obviousness is to omit big parts of the picture, and that guarantees that we’re not seeing it accurately.

One example close to my heart is gun control. I find myself on the opposite side of this issue from a lot of liberals, and agreeing with some conservatives with whom I disagree on nearly everything else. It puts me in the position of voting for candidates I dread seeing take office, because though they stand for nearly everything else I believe in, some of them are pretty stridently advocating ending or drastically reducing a freedom that means a great deal to me. And yet I can’t vote for their opponents, because they’re equally determined to wreak havoc on a number of other freedoms I also value very highly.

As George Lakoff pointed out in his new book and in the excellent interview Austin did with him, it’s a question of how we frame the problem. To listen to the two sides (that false dualism), it sounds as if two completely different discussions are taking place because they’re framing it so differently. So the first step would be to boil it down to what it’s really about, what’s underneath the details, what’s at a deeper level than guns or abortion or whatever else we’re upset about.

In the case of gun control, it’s a matter of the tradeoffs between freedom and security and between the rights of the individual and the community. There are people who would argue that no one should have guns, period. Why? Because they want everyone to be safe. There’s nothing wrong with that—it’s a noble idea. But complete safety is impossible. On the other side of the divide, some would argue that there should be no restrictions on gun ownership. Why? Because they want everyone to have as much freedom as possible. Nothing wrong with that either, and that’s also impossible.

The solution that a democracy hopes to find is a balance, a degree of safety and feeling comfortable on the one hand and a degree of freedom and feeling unfettered on the other hand that everyone can accept, even if it doesn’t satisfy the most extreme desires at either end of the spectrum. So the question is, how much control should a government be able to exert over its citizens in order to carry out its obligation to try to protect the community at large from individuals who would otherwise run amok? And how much freedom is an individual entitled to, despite the fact that it reduces the feelings or reality of safety or comfort of the neighbors? This is the same question that causes people to come to blows over whether the neighborhood association should be able to tell someone what color they can paint their house, whether a liquor license will be granted at a given address, whether a street should have speed bumps, and so on. When it comes to guns the feelings about both freedom and safety/comfort are more visceral and intense.
So what would be a reasonable compromise? Well, maybe we could look at other situations that have something in common with this one and are being handled more or less successfully and see whether we could adapt those solutions.

Guns are very dangerous. They are also very useful for self-protection and hunting for food, and for people who enjoy target shooting or other recreational gun sports, a great deal of fun. They’re deeply embedded in our culture, at least in large parts of it. Guns are a big part of what many people think of as the American way of life.

What else does this describe? Well, cars, for one thing. Cars are very dangerous; they are very useful, and for some purposes, necessary, and to a lot of people a source of great pleasure. Cars are as deeply embedded in American culture as guns. Hell, they name cars after guns, along with warships, edged weapons, and predatory animals, and you could probably find a gun named after a car although I can’t think of one off the top of my head.

So how do we handle cars? Not ideally, but we have a way that works. We don’t say, “Cars are dangerous, so we can’t let you have them because you might hurt someone else or yourself with them.” Neither do we say, “There are no restrictions on owning and operating cars, because this is a fundamental American freedom.”

We have some pretty stringent rules. Before we let someone own or drive a car, we require that he or she demonstrate the ability to do so safely and competently and get a license documenting that accomplishment. We require cars to be registered and maintained in safe condition, and we require people operating them to carry minimum amounts of liability insurance. We make it a serious crime to operate a car when drunk, high or just too tired. We have speed limits, traffic signals, and other controls on how and where we can drive. But we pretty much guarantee that unless someone has demonstrated that he or she can’t be trusted in a car, that person can buy and drive any car that he or she has the money to get, and can drive it anywhere and in any manner that is not against the law in order to protect the community.

Gun owners strongly resist the idea of having to register their guns, because they have the very reasonable fear that if they are registered, sooner or later someone from the government will show up to confiscate them. I say that’s a reasonable fear, because there are a fair number of politicians who advocate exactly that. You can bet that very few people would want to register their cars if they thought that might lead to their being arbitrarily taken away, either.

So—would it work to treat guns the way we treat cars? Place restrictions on their possession and use to protect the public, but guarantee that as long as they’re used responsibly, ownership will not be threatened? That might be a Constitutional amendment worth taking up. The Second Amendment is a marvel of ambiguity, and it would be good to clear it up.

Personally, I would have no problem with complying with any of the restrictions I mentioned about cars when it comes to my guns. I’ve undergone decades of training and I did go through a licensing process to get my concealed carry permit; any time I buy a gun, I submit to an instant background check that for all intents and purposes, lets someone somewhere know I just bought another one; and I accept the fact that I can only shoot them in legally sanctioned places in a carefully controlled manner. Further, owing to their portability and potential for theft, I accept the fact that in order to be a responsible gun owner, I need to keep them locked in a safe when they aren’t in my direct personal control, i.e., in my hands, on my person, or within reach. I keep them unloaded except when I’m going to use them, I don’t point them at anything I don’t intend to shoot, I don’t put my finger on the trigger until I’m ready to pull said trigger, and I have to make sure of what’s behind my target so I don’t shoot through it and hit someone or something that shouldn’t be subjected to that danger. I don’t drink or use recreational drugs anyway, but if I did, I wouldn’t shoot under the influence, and I don’t go shooting if I’m not rested. Although I have a concealed carry license, it has restrictions on where I can take a gun, and I don’t take one where I shouldn’t (places that sell alcohol, schools, government buildings, anyplace posted as not allowing them, Native American reservations, national and state parks, and some other odds and ends). If we did require liability insurance for gun owners, I’d qualify for the “little old lady from Pasadena” rate.

Within those limits, my personal opinion is that I ought to be allowed to own and shoot any gun I want and can afford, again as long as I am responsible and safe with it. George Lakoff talked about automatic weapons as a problem and as legal restrictions as a solution. That’s not valid—he was talking about gang members using them to shoot people, and those gang members don’t buy their guns legally anyway. I could legally own and shoot a machine gun if I chose to pay a fairly hefty fee and if I passed a fairly stringent background check, and I think that’s the way it should be. That’s already too limited for me; the government banned the importation or manufacture of any new machine guns for the civilian market years ago, so the ones that already exist are all there are, and they keep getting more and more expensive. To argue that I shouldn’t be able to own a machine gun because I don’t need it for hunting or target shooting makes no more sense than arguing that people shouldn’t be able to buy fast cars because no one really needs one. Should we put a ban on manufacturing any more Corvettes, so that only those already on the road could be sold or resold? Actually, that would make more sense, because a performance car is a lot worse for the environment than a machine gun.

With guns, as with cars, the freedoms they help provide are important ones. In America, we’re free to pick up and head for the other side of the country if we want, but unless we have the means to do so, that freedom is meaningless. One of the telltale signs of a totalitarian system is tightly restricted domestic travel. When I was a teenager my family went on vacation in Mexico, which was certainly not North Korea but not exactly as free as we’re used to here either. It struck me as weird and creepy that every hour or so, we’d come to a roadblock where people in uniforms and sunglasses with guns would carefully look us over and inspect our papers before letting us go on our way. I’d never seen anything like that here (I have now, which doesn’t make me happy). I want to be able to take it for granted that if I can afford to do so, I can get in my car and drive to Maine, Washington, or Florida without needing an internal passport or having to justify my trip to anyone.

The freedoms that guns provide are, if anything, even more visceral. I know that if I’m carrying my .45 I can protect my family and myself in situations where it would be patently unrealistic to think that the police could get there in time, even if I was able to call them. I don’t look for trouble, and I go out of my way to avoid it, but if I get cornered in a situation of last resort, I’ll have the means to protect myself. And the private ownership of guns has historically been a safeguard against tyranny, and something that tyrants hated. When the Minutemen fired the “shots heard round the world” at Lexington and Concord, they were fighting British troops who had been sent to their communities to confiscate their guns. The rifles they owned were pretty much the state of the military art at that time—obviously, that’s no longer the case. I don’t have a Blackhawk attack chopper, an M1 tank, or a rocket launcher, and I don’t know anyone who does. But the weapons we do have would be enough to give any would-be President-For-Life pause. And that’s the way it should be. I tend to be suspicious of bumper-sticker philosophy, since it lends itself to the kind of oversimplification I started out talking about, but I agree with the sticker that says, “I fear the government that fears my guns.” What it really boils down to is that guns are a potent form of raw power. Mao said that power comes from the muzzle of a gun—it’s only one form of power, but in that limited sense he was right. So the question is how much power should individuals have, and how much should be reserved for the government? Personally, I think that equation is already far out of balance in favor of the government.

So perhaps part of the solution is an explicit, formalized tradeoff in which gun owners would accept certain requirements and restrictions in return for guarantees of certain freedoms, in perpetuity.

Another part of the solution is education. When most people didn’t have cars and had never even ridden in one, they were scary, and a lot of people wanted to ban them. Familiarization eased their concerns. I’ve watched my wife go through a similar process with guns. She had very little experience with them and was kind of spooked with having them around, but rather than simply say, “They’re evil! Get rid of them,” she said, “I want to learn how to handle them safely and use them competently.” She did so, and though she has a very healthy respect for the dangers they pose if treated recklessly, she doesn’t lose any sleep over their presence. One of the problems with this issue is that so many of the people who yell the loudest know the least about what they’re talking about. Makes me think of the Web site where some smartass has a live cam sitting watching a rifle—one of the notorious assault rifles at that—that is loaded and cocked, but sitting in front of the camera with no one touching it. It’s been there for a long time, and that rifle hasn’t gone off yet. A lot of legislators and voters base their opinions about guns on appearances or on sensationalist news coverage of isolated incidents. For example, I could walk into a store tomorrow and buy two rifles, a Colt AR-15 and a Ruger Mini-14. They are functionally identical—both are semi-automatic, meaning you get one shot per pull on the trigger; they both use detachable magazines, meaning you can quickly reload them with anywhere from five to a hundred cartridges; they have the same kind of sights and about the same effective range; they even fire exactly the same ammunition. But the Colt looks sinister—it’s the civilian version of the M-16 we’ve seen a thousand deranged criminals and terrorists using in TV dramas; whereas the Ruger has a respectable-looking wooden stock and looks kind of tame – a kinder, gentler looking semi-automatic rifle. One got classified as an assault rifle, and was illegal to buy from partway through the Clinton administration until a few years ago, and the other didn’t get that classification and had essentially little more restriction placed on it than a BB gun. Why? Because the Colt has a black plastic stock and a pistol grip, neither of which make any functional difference whatever. This makes no sense. This is the kind of law passed only by people who either don’t know what they’re doing or are cynically counting on the voters not to figure it out. Would we want some cars being banned because they’re painted the wrong color or have a stick shift instead of an automatic transmission?

Although gun control is my pet issue—partly because I really do not want anyone trying to take away my guns if I haven’t done anything to demonstrate that I’m not a responsible owner; partly because I don’t trust that I will always be able to count on the police to protect me and the government to respect my civil liberties; partly because in this area, a lot of liberals who normally think in what Lakoff calls a “nurturant family” mode suddenly go all authoritarian and “strict-father,” and I think they’re unthinkingly betraying their own principles out of intellectual laziness; and partly because I know a lot of sensible, moderate, enlightened people who vote Republican because and only because they are afraid the Democrats will take their guns if they get into office—there are a swarm of comparable issues. On each of them, a lot of us liberals are jerking our knees rather than thinking, and betraying the principles we claim to uphold; and we’re losing credibility and voters by doing so. It’s too much to ask the majority of the voting public to suddenly start reflecting on the nuances of social questions, when they’ve never been taught to do so and all the media they’re being exposed to are yelling at them to just keep chanting simple-minded slogans and treating every issue as a kindergarten yes/no question. But we here at BIO, and other blogs, are trying to be leaders. We need to lead by example. I believe that if we get some analysis with some meat to it out there on a number of issues, and point out to the public that a lot of politicians and most of the mainstream media are assuming they’re morons and treating them accordingly, we may be able to get more people to start actually thinking. And I believe the more thinking that happens, the more people will start voting more progressively, because I really believe that our values are in tune with those of most Americans.

So maybe we can start with gun control. If not, let’s pick another issue. But no matter where we start, let’s try to really boil things down to the true paradoxes that lie at the bottom of all real controversies, and looking first for common ground and then for acceptable third paths.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. .
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
2. Gun Control Issue Is A Non-Issue ....
gun control issue is a smoke screen.

The issue is public safety. Register guns for the sake of keeping the public safe. Keep the point simple. People understand the need for public safety.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Registering guns does little if anything to keep the public safe.
You are just as likely to be shot with a registered gun as an unregistered one. Public safety is also used as a smoke screen by some. I'm not saying that you are a bad person, but don't have your pot point at the kettle.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Address The Issue Of Guns As A Public Safety Issue.
This is simple and to the point. People will listen and understand the need for training and proper use of equipment discussions.

My being shot is is not a public safety issue. And not the point of this discussion.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. "Register guns for the sake of keeping the public safe."
That is a false statement, and I gave a reason why it is false.

"My being shot is is not a public safety issue. And not the point of this discussion."
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you weren't a member of the public. Otherwise I would've been specific in my wording when explaining why gun registry does nothing to ensure public safety. Gun safety training addresses public safety.

The point of this discussion was the intelligent suggestion that we stop oversimplifying everything, which you apparently don't understand or agree with.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. When One Is Talking An Issue, One Needs To Keep Focused...
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 01:10 PM by emanymton
One can try to chase down others's non-sequitr arguments and waste ones time and energy. I like to say what I mean and mean what I say when I talk with others.

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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And you are an excellent example of the topic under discussion. - n/t
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thank You. It Is Nice To Be Appreciated.
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smacky44 Donating Member (275 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. But does it make it LESS safe to register your gun? False premise here.
I want to own my gun and I have no problem with registering it. Why would I? It's not an automatic weapon, not an assault rifle. So what is the big deal? If my insurance company requires that I list it among my assests in case of damage, theft etc. I have no problem with that. So why not register it with law enforcement. No one is going to force me to give it up, I guarantee you that.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's not a false premise, as I wasn't positing that it's safer not...
...to register guns. I was directly addressing that other guy's assertion that registering guns is somehow a public safety matter, which it isn't in practice. In fact, it is an ineffective bandaid compromise politicians have enacted so as to placate both pro- and anti-gun voters.

I don't own a gun. I have no plans to own a gun. If that changes for some reason, I don't really care whether I'm required to register it or not.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. If properly enforced
It will most likely reduce the number of guns out there. It does so in countries with strickter regulations on weapons posession.
In many states it's just to easy for just anyone to obtain a gun legally, without any oversight.
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nosillies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Whether I agree with your gun position or not, it's very refreshing to see
a well-written argument with lots of thoughts behind it. Thank you!

I used to train employees, and would ask them what they would do in certain situations. Sometimes they would get flustered. I would tell them that "I don't know" or "I have mixed feelings about that" is often the best answer. Why? It shows the willingness and ability to think!!!! Asking questions, not spouting off answers, is the best way to encourage dialogue that is beneficial to all. It's a shift from authoritarian speaking/thinking to authoritative speaking/thinking (borrowed from Baumrind, whom Lakoff quotes, if I remember correctly).

What a wonderful day when politicians running for office aren't afraid to say about an issue, "Well, this is I how I feel about this right now, but it's hard one, and it really affects a lot of people differently, and I'm open to hearing everyone's thoughts on that," or something to that effect!
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Flip-Flopper!
Why do you hate America???

:P
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nosillies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh, you got me!!!
I know, I like people, I hate America, I'm so uncool. I really am.
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Very cogent
Welcome
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. You summed up my feelings 100%
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. If I May?
This points out a big difference between DUers & Freepers - DU actually has a Discussion Board for gun owners. Does this mean we're the real Big Tent?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I'm an anti-gun-control Dem
And to be honest I feel a lot of sympathy for the group I see as my analogue, pro-choice Republicans. But you're right; we have a whole forum for it here, FR doesn't give their pro-choice members (and they do have plenty) something like that.

But, as an example, expect this topic to migrate to the Gungeon soon.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not a gun person myself, but thanks!
Haven't got a problem with folks that have guns and agree that it is never a black or white choice.

To follow up on your comparison: Through the years, laws and regulations on cars and drivers have made them safer for the users without severely limiting their usefulness or availability. There are still vintage cars that don't have the safety and emissions equipment, but most cars on the road are far safer, cleaner, and more efficient than in the past. Also, the tightening of DUI laws/enforcement and liability insurance help on the user side of the equation.

I can only hope that as we move into a post-W age, one of the lessons learned is to look past the either/or mentality that we've been saddled with lately. It is amazing how some folks (not anyone here in particular) can pass off the NSA snooping with "If you're not doing anything wrong, what are you worried about?" but turn around and be against any form of firearm registration or limitations.

There will always be folks at the extremes of issues and idealistic absolutists can help to shape the arguments, but it is on the middle ground that most of us live and where we can find our place in life.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. the gun/car analogy
is silly for a # of reasons. he tries to equate them in a number of ways

first of all, guns, like speech, assembly, etc. are rights recognized in the constitution.

cars, and driving are not.

driving is a privilege. there is no "RIGHT" to drive

yes, both can be dangerous if misused. and yes, cars can contribute to liberty - giving one more freedom to roam, to explore, to work, etc

many people think we should not take the "middle ground" on OTHER civil rights, but when it comes to guns, suddenly pragmatism is the day. "we don't want to eliminate guns, just register them, etc. etc."

while there certainly should be some restrictions on guns, and gun ownership, these restrictions should face the same strict scrutiny that we would use in regards to search and seizure, etc. but NOT driving

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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Using driving/cars was to encourage common ground
Most folks don't have too many problems with the way cars and driving are handled. The notion that they are equal is not the point, just the idea that emphasizing the absolutes is not helping anyone.

All parts of the Constitution have had restrictions/interpretations imposed either through legislation or judicial rulings. That we still have debates and new legal precedents to this day is a testament to the living nature of our democracy and the thoughtfulness of our founders. It is always useful to have free and open debate, regardless of the subject.
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sgxnk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. i 'kind of' agree
my point is that there is a very critical difference

i see way too much wishywashyness vis a vis freedom of speech and when it comes to guns, too many don't even RECOGNIZE it as a civil right

as for cars, you can have your privilege to drive revoked WITHOUT a (jury) trial, and merely upon too many tickets, and/or a failure to pay a fine

which is fine, because it's not a right

im just saying i am very interested in how he chose guns as the common ground, and not search and seizure, or right to assembly

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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. I respect your stance, but I disagree. Now, I don't want to take
your guns away, but I really don't understand why you want them. Chances are that a mugger, robber, carjacker or anyone with bad intent will not announce to you that they are present, and are going to commit harm to you. They generally like to sneak up and surprise you. So, are you going to say, "Wait a minute, buddy, while I whip out my pistol to make this a fair fight.?" You wouldn't have a chance to produce your weapon to defend yourself. So now what? The robber robs you of your cash AND your gun.

Also, why feel so threatened that you feel the need for a weapon? Why not study martial arts, or buy a big dog? I've lived in this country for fifty years and have never felt scared or threatened to the point of considering buying a firearm. If you feel that threatened, then why not move to an area you feel safe in?

My brother-in-law was armed to the teeth. What happened? Someone broke into his house and stole all of his weapons and ammo. among other things that were stolen when he and his family were away.

Now, suppose you are sound asleep and someone breaks into your home? You wake up to a noise, think it's a burglar, get your gun and fire at an intruder. But it isn't an intruder. It's your son or daughter coming home late from a party.

I would hate to live with the fact that I shot my son or daughter, because I was so paranoid that I had to protect my family: the irony of it all.

Weapons are killing machines. I just don't see why people find so much security in them.

As far as issues being black and white, I do tend to agree with you. There are many more shades of gray than there are of black or white.




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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. agreed
Re. Assault Weapons --nobody can ever explain why they think we need to have the right to own automatic weapons.

Basically gun advocates don't want any limits.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. It's precisely that type of misunderstanding
that makes the gun issue so divisive.

Re. Assault Weapons --nobody can ever explain why they think we need to have the right to own automatic weapons.

Basically gun advocates don't want any limits.

We DON'T have an unlimited right to own automatic weapons. All automatic weapons, including military AK-47's and Uzi's, are very tightly controlled in the United States by the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act. The NRA, and most gun owners, support the NFA and always have (it's been on the books for 72 years now). Automatic weapons have nothing to do with the gun-control debate as it stands in 2006, because those guns have been restricted for 72 years.

You appear to be under the mistaken impression than "assault weapons," as defined by the gun-ban lobby, are automatic weapons. Actually, an "assault weapon" is defined in most model legislation as any civilian self-loading rifle or shotgun with a handgrip that sticks out, any civilian shotgun that holds more than 5 shells, any civilian rifle or pistol that holds more than 10 cartridges, or any other civilian firearm the prohibitionists decide they want to ban.

All of the following NON-automatic weapons are classified as "assault weapons" by the gun-ban lobby:



preban Marlin Model 60 squirrel hunting rifle, .22 caliber.



Benelli Steadygrip turkey hunting shotgun, 12-guage.



Hammerli international target competition pistol, .22 caliber.



My wife's Glock 26 home-defense pistol, with Glock 19 magazine.



My wife's antique Russian Samozaryadniy Karabin Simonova, made in Tula in 1952 and very collectible, shown with her Glock.



My Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle, .223 caliber



My SAR-1 7.62x39mm carbine, in hunting/target configuration (no, this is NOT an AK-47)



I as a gun owner am totally OK with the NFA Title 2/Class III restrictions on automatic weapons. I am not OK with banning half the guns our family owns just because the gun-ban lobby doesn't like 15-round handguns and low-powered rifles with handgrips that stick out.


FWIW, all rifles combined account for less than 3% of homicides in the United States: FBI crime stats, by type of weapon. Many states had zero rifle homicides in 2004, which is not uncommon. Banning small-caliber civilian rifles because of how they look makes absolutely no sense.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. whatever
I'm not really interested in your gun collecting hobby. You're probably not interested in my art glass collection. OK. Let's talk seriously about handgun control, not whether people should own guns made to look like assault weapons or not. Too silly.

I've been a bystander to gun crossfire twice, had a loaded handgun pointed at me by a deranged individual when looking at real estate, had a stranger in camo trying to shoot an owl in my backyard, had my woodshed hit by a stray bullet, and am losing track of all the gun tragedies, suicides, accidents in my community. They happen all the time. BTW I live in a 'nice' suburban area, not a ghetto.

Let's talk about a society where everyone thinks they have to own a gun to protect themselves. Let's talk about the tragedies behind that vision of our collective future. There's a different kind of survivalism that doesn't depend on such primitive weaponry.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
26. Some thoughts...
in this area, a lot of liberals who normally think in what Lakoff calls a “nurturant family” mode suddenly go all authoritarian and “strict-father,” and I think they’re unthinkingly betraying their own principles out of intellectual laziness; and partly because I know a lot of sensible, moderate, enlightened people who vote Republican because and only because they are afraid the Democrats will take their guns if they get into office—there are a swarm of comparable issues. On each of them, a lot of us liberals are jerking our knees rather than thinking, and betraying the principles we claim to uphold; and we’re losing credibility and voters by doing so.

An EXCELLENT summary of the problem, on this issue and others.

I put some thoughts on the gun issue together after the 2004 election, and it may help some of the non-gunnies understand where people like my wife and I are coming from:

Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What?
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