You who've bashed Hillary for her plantation remark fell into another trap

[mtnsnake]

Bash her if you want for her vote on the IWR (like most of the other Democrats who voted similarly).

Bash her if you want for her stand on the American flag, even though she's one of the only Dems who vociferously argued against a flag-burning amendment back in June of 2005, and she's STILL against such an amendment.

Bash her if you want because she's not as far left as you'd like her to be...........

But PLEASE don't get on her case for doing something a couple days ago that every single Democrat in this country should be proud of. In that same speech of hers that the media is picking apart for her "plantation" analogy, she said.....rather, make that....she SCREAMED, "We have a culture of corruption, we have cronyism, we have incompetence. I predict to you that this administration will go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed our country.”

This is ONE TIME that we should all be sticking up for her.

All year long, all of us here at DU have been complaining that no currently elected Democrat leaders have been speaking up like this. Then all of a sudden we get a high-profile member of the Senate, Hillary Clinton, jumping out of the closet BLASTING the president and his corrupt administration...screaming at the top of her lungs the very words we've all been waiting to hear...and what happens....we waste time arguing about the one negative analogy of her speech, the plantation remark, and focus our energy on that remark instead of on the parts where she delivered a knockout punch to Bush. Instead of rallying behind her, the Hillary hatred oozes out of the woodwork once again and rises to the top. How sad and how counterproductive.

The only thing we should be doing around her, re: Hillary's speech, is celebrating how she throttled George Bush. But no, instead of pulling behind her on this, we have to bicker....and NITPICK as usual about an analogy that the corporate media would like to have you believe is so controversial.

For those of you who STILL refuse to rally behind Hillary, even on this strong speech of hers, consdider this: Please don't fall right into the laps of the media and the right wing nuts who seem to have such good luck pulling everyone's strings. They want you to forget what she said about the corruption of this current administration and would rather have you argue over a "plantation" remark she made. Don't fall into their trap!

[EST]

1. Perhaps I'm jaded.

I fail to see why her remark was even "controversial." It was true.

[sojourner]

13. "controversial" is when the media want to distort or discredit something a

politician says...9 times out of 10. that is but one of their disinformation tools, however, as there's also the "ignore" and the "spin until it looks/sounds like jello" - and of course the outright lie. i am sick, sick, sick of them!!!

[rodeodance]

2. the Wolf/Kerry interview yest. was good==Kerry agreed with Hil on most

corrupt in History.

[mtnsnake]

9. Yes he did. For what she said about Bush, everyone should be rallying

behind her no matter what they think of her on other matters. She slammed him good and she said sounded just like so many of us here on this forum who have said the same exact thing MANY times in the past.

[marmar]

3. Every one in the audience knew exactly what she was talking about...

because it resonated with them. This is yet another manufactured controversy by the right and their media lapdogs. As an African American, all I can say is, "Go 'head, sister Clinton!"

[mtnsnake]

4. Thank you!

Well said!

[LostinVA]

10. Yup, it was well-received by her audience

Who were minorities in Harlem. I think I trust their sensibilities on this more than the white woman in Virginia typing this post (although I agree with HRC!).

Totally RW-manufactured "controversy."

[seabeyond]

5. ignore everything she says and just talk about the word plantation

now that would be so bad if we actuallyt alked about it and why she used it and why the people have reacted as they have. but talking about the word plantation isnt even talking about it..... it is talking about the audacity of her saying it out loud

[Lerkfish]

6. though I wholeheartedly applaud what she said yesterday, I think its

poor form to imply that anyone who does not rally behind her as a candidate is a republican thrall.

Not only poor form, an exercise in irony.

[mtnsnake]

7. No one implied that n/t

[Lerkfish]

26. then I misread this line?:

"For those of you who STILL refuse to rally behind Hillary, even on this strong speech of hers, consdider this: Please don't fall right into the laps of the media and the right wing nuts who seem to have such good luck pulling everyone's strings. "


my reading of that was why I said "imply that anyone who does not rally behind her as a candidate is a republican thrall."

[mtnsnake]

35. You most certainly did!

How you can derive that from what I said is beyond belief!

[Lerkfish]

37. (confused) do you perhaps not understand the word "thrall"?

thrall

n 1: the state of being under the control of another person

I contend how I read what you said and what I said is essentially the same thing.

If I have misread it, and I don't think I have, then I apologize.

If you did not mean that, can you please more clearly explain what you meant by your statement?

[LostinVA]

12. Who said that? No one in this thread...

I don't want HRC to be our candidate, but that has nothing to do with this.

[Lerkfish]

30. see post #26

[mtnsnake]

36. See post #35

Sorry, but you're really stretching the bounds of comprehension on this one.

Peace

[Lerkfish]

38. sorry, but I completely disagree.

I believe I have interpreted their statement reasonably.

If they meant something else, I'd appreciate a more clear explanation of that.

otherwise, I'll apologize if I've misinterpreted, but I don't believe I have.

[mtnsnake]

39. I can't explain it any more clearly than what's already in the OP

Sorry, but I don't understand how my advising people not to "fall right into the laps of the media and the right wing nuts who seem to have such good luck pulling everyone's strings" can possibly imply that I think anyone who does so is a "Republican thrall."

I was clearing suggesting for people NOT to fall into their trap, period. I never ever hinted that anyone who DOES fall into their trap concerning this notion is a Republican ANYTHING, let alone a "thrall"!

[Lerkfish]

40. ah. then clearly we are not meeting on the word "thrall"

you are using the definition of slave or enslaved, and I'm using it, as I explained, in holding people under influence.

the way I meant "thrall" is exactly defined by your statement: "fall right into the laps of the media and the right wing nuts who seem to have such good luck pulling everyone's strings"

You misunderstood what I meant. I did not misunderstand what you meant.

[mtnsnake]

46. Ya know what you need to do? Go back & read your own post #6

where YOU completely misinterpreted what I was trying to say!!

Now THAT is what you need to do to realize that you totally attempted to change the meaning of MY own words.

Here is what YOU said in post #6:

"though I wholeheartedly applaud what she said yesterday, I think its poor form to imply that anyone who does not rally behind her as a candidate is a republican thrall. Not only poor form, an exercise in irony."

Like I told you before, I never implied that anyone who fell into the Republican's laps over this was a Republican ANYTHING. Not a Republican thrall, not a Republican Shrawl, not a freakin Republican ANYTHING!! It doesn't matter which definition anyone's using of your cute little word "thrall". Is that clear enough for you?? Good gawd, I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this "thrall" shit already!

[Lerkfish]

54. no, you need to read your own OP.

you said:

For those of you who STILL refuse to rally behind Hillary, even on this strong speech of hers, consdider this: Please don't fall right into the laps of the media and the right wing nuts who seem to have such good luck pulling everyone's strings.

My post was merely summarizing yours, but regardless, you've completely missed MY POINT.

its poor form to imply that if someone doesn't rally behind Hillary, its because we have been influenced by the media or right wing nuts who are pulling our strings.This implies we are making our decisions completely by being trapped into it, instead of recognizing that we have reached our decision on our own.

THAT is what I find objectionable: your arrogant characterization of someone who disagrees with you as being trapped into doing so.

capiche?

you fail to understand basic semantics, but and however, you should at least understand that implying anyone who disagrees with you is thinking in a faulty way or has been unduly influenced by the traps of others is the height of hubris.

You still persist in not understanding that to be a "republican thrall' does not make you a republican, but it means you have been influenced or coerced BY republicans, which is PRECISELY WHAT YOU SAID.

you are very clear to me, but you are not even trying to understand what I'm saying, your kneejerking is pulling you into the same wrong conclusion repeatedly.

You are saying if we do not rally behind Hillary, we are doing so for falling into a trap laid by the media and right wingers.
However, there are many good reasons for not supporting Hillary, and those reasons are precisely BECAUSE we are not being influenced but are rather leery of, influence by the right wing. There is the irony.

I object to Hillary because SHE is fallen under the same trap you imply I have fallen under: undue republican influence.

[mtnsnake]

62. haha, you know what I honestly think?

I honestly think you are putting way too much emphasis on YOUR interpretation of what YOU'D like MY post to mean. I said what I said and I know what I mean, and I'm not in the habit of letting someone else twist the meaning of my post around to suit their own MO.

Now, as far as me not understanding YOUR point, well you just said it yourself....that I fail to "understand basic semantics". So let's just leave it at that, eh, if it leaves you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. There is no point in arguing anymore over the usage of the word "thrall". LOL

[H2O Man]

8. I'm glad she said it.

And I loved watching Rev. Al Sharpton talking about it on HardBall last night.

[mtnsnake]

11. Damn it. I missed Hardball. I would've loved listening to Sharpton

last night if I had known he was on. Now THERE'S someone who's also not afraid to speak up!

[H2O Man]

14. It was him versus

the fellow who wrote "Black in the White House." Sharpton was mildly polite until the guy started being an ass. Then Al told Chris that he must have combed Washington DC to find the only black man who was "insulted" by Hillary. The guy tried to get nasty with Al, and the result was one of the better discussions on issues of race that I have seen.

[mtnsnake]

18. Thanks for the update on that, H20 Man

"Then Al told Chris that he must have combed Washington DC to find the only black man who was "insulted" by Hillary."

Too funny!

[Catherine Vincent]

24. oh yes, that was great wasn't it?

Sharpton rocked! You almost felt sorry for the other brother. Sort of. :)

[CatWoman]

15. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=167292&mesg_id=167292

[dogday]

34. Here is a link to the video

need windows media player to view


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x167292

[KittyWampus]

17. Any way to highlight the Right's use of their "Southern Strategy" helps

[EstimatedProphet]

16. I agree

I'm not saying I want her to ruun for President, but it's about time she publically stood up for what was right. Good for her!

[Catrina]

19. I think she did great and didn't go far enough, and if the Rev. Al,

her audience and Conyers et al thought her speech was right on target, I'll take my cue from them, rather than the propaganda machine and a bunch of freepers.

She might add in her next speech, just to further inflame them, that Grover Norquist, hopefully soon to be investigated for his Abramoff crimes, compared the Minority Party to 'animals who needed to learn their place'. Where was the outrage over that remark? Was he referring to Rep. Conyers, the Black Caucus, Obama maybe? I think he was, let him explain it! Use this opportunity to bring it up and demand an explanation and an apology.

Democrats still do not know how to go to street fight with cowards. But Hillary made a good start this week.

*Sigh* ~ this is a great opportunity!! So they're 'outraged'!! Use it and go after them with their own talking point. A little googling will produce oodles of ammunition. Bullies only get away with bullying until someone gets in their face, and then they run. Hillary apparently touched a nerve, otherwise they wouldn't be howling like babies. Now's the time to take the fight to them and I love it when they whine. Why is everyone so upset? Don't you know that when they whine we got to them? Make them whine some more.

GO HILLARY!! Now you're on the right track! They can't pull your pigtails anymore and they're crying like little babies! :rofl:

[mtnsnake]

21. Oh do I love what you're saying!

If only the Dem leaders who wonder how to "street fight" could take your advice on this!

[mattclearing]

20. Totally agree. Recommending.

I said this too.

I am extremely critical of Hillary, and do not support her presidential ambitions, but she was right on the money.

The knee-jerk Hillary-bashers need to stop, listen, read, and think before posting.

She said exactly what everyone here has been saying all along.

Please think before posting, people.

Thanks.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. Right On Hillary

I agree with the speech.

The Dems who are "offended" have been by the MSM and the Repuke spin machine.

[BooScout]

23. I agree with you...

I am sick to death of the Hillary bashing around here. I'm further left than most people and even I realize the need to move to center to get elected.

[huskerlaw]

25. Agreed.

Even those of us who are cynical of the reasons behind the speech should NOT be enabling the right-wing spin machine in their attack of her.

Regardless of how you feel about her actions up to now, she stood up for you yesterday. Stand up next to her and say "DAMN STRAIGHT!" (and then contact her office and kindly suggest that she back it up by voting against Alito)

[spunky]

27. I bash her specifically for that remark

But PLEASE don't get on her case for doing something a couple days ago that every single Democrat in this country should be proud of. In that same speech of hers that the media is picking apart for her "plantation" analogy, she said.....rather, make that....she SCREAMED, "We have a culture of corruption, we have cronyism, we have incompetence. I predict to you that this administration will go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed our country.”

That comment was so blatantly a ploy to make us all think she's further to the left than she really is.

I don't like being manipulated.

I couldn't really care less about the Plantation comment, she wasn't manipulating me, a white girl, with that one. That was just a white politician attempting to be more ethnic than she is. I think they all do it at one point or another. In that case she was taking advantage of MLK day and manipulating the African American community. "You know what I mean." *nudge nudge wink wink* Let the African American community pillorize her for that. They're the ones it was aimed at, and are the ones entitled to be offended.

[quiet.american]

29. Thank you, Spunky.

I completely agree with what you've said.

I've backed Hillary 100% with my financial support and vote, and I have to say, as an African-American, I quite frankly found her remark patronizing for reasons I've already outlined in other posts, and if there's one thing that pushes my buttons, no matter from what direction it's coming, it's being patronized. I've listened to her remarks more than once, and uncharacteristically, that analogy didn't even quite make sense in the context of what she was saying.

As for the rest of her remarks, okay, but why should I now believe this was anything other than a stump speech?

That said, I completely agree the Republican exploitation of her remark is the usual B.S., but Hillary also should be aware that what may have worked in the 90's with black progressives may need some fine-tuning now.

[chimpymustgo]

61. Agree, Spunky and quiet.american. And criticism on this board DOES NOT

amount to aiding and abetting "the enemy". I thought Hillary's use of "plantation" was out of place and pandering (anybody getting raped, or beaten to death, or having their children torn away from them in Congress - NO!). But if someone called me for a public comment - I would support Hillary taking on the Organized Crime Adminstration 100%. I will support ANY Dem taking them on.

But I recoil at the relentless effort to use this as a club to corral support for a Hillary candidacy. Very UNdemocratic.

[AZBlue]

42. This is what I don't get.

You think she's not far enough left. Then she says something left-leaning. So you bash her for it.

Huh??

[spunky]

71. Because its inauthentic. She says that, but will vote middle of the road

I don't give a damn if someone talks the talk. I want to see them walk the walk.

[Catrina]

49. Well, the African American community has spoken and they were thrilled

with what she said. I believe she got a standing ovation from her audience. Obama has come out and supported her, the Black Caucus, Rep. Conyers, and the Rev. Al.

Her comment was dead on. Have you read what Grover Norquist said about the Democrats? She described what's been going on in Congress since rightwing thugs bought it (and we know now for sure that most of them were bought and paid for) and Norquist declared (this creep is not even an elected official!) that the Minority party were akin to animals, and should assume their place as cowaring dogs, or some such nonsense, 'and then they'll get used to it and will be fine'. She was way too kind actually.

I don't particularly like her. But when Democrats join forces in kicking the living daylights out of these thugs, I like that!! And that's what happened yesterday. Gore, Hillary, Kerry, now Obama, Conyers, and she's got the little bullies whining in their soup!

I know they are acting, but we should pretend we think they're sincere and then slap them with their own party's racism. Seems like the African American community isn't too fond of the Repubs these days, with images of Katrina still very much in their minds.

They need to get off this particular train. It can easily become a wreck, with a little help from Dems. Was it racism that caused George Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Condy et al to go shopping, eat cake, strum the guitar, shop for mansions, while thousands of US citizens, the majority of them African Americans, died on television in front of the entire world for FIVE LONG DAYS!! Whine about it, yell about it, scream and kick and demand answers. Change the subject to one that is important and thank them for reminding us!!

I've seen their racist comments regarding the victims of Hurricane Katrina and this is a golden opportunity to bring it up again. And to force them to go find the thousands who are missing. That will shut them up, although we should not allow them to slink away from what was deadly neglect of the people of NO by the so-called 'National Security' administration.

Expose them, slam them and don't let up. They've given us enough ammunition to last several lifetimes. Hillary made a good start. They want to make it a race issue. Hillary clearly has the African American community on her side. Bush has a 2% support rate among African Americans (Condi and who else?). This is an easy fight to win. I have a feeling they know that already and we won't hear much more of their lying hypocrisy now that Hillary has the open support of African Americans. I wouldn't let them slink away. Keep after them Dems, they're on the run and getting careless and desperate. Pound them with their failures, their corruption, their racism re Katrina.

Karl Rove says 'hit the opposition where they're strong'. Okay!! National Security was supposed to be this weasel's strengthe. Katrina made a mockery of that claim, which is why they want it to go away.

[Jim Sagle]

59. Except that they're NOT offended. Get a fuckin' clue.

[spunky]

70. Where did I say they were? I said it was up to them. If they're offended

I don't blame them. If they aren't terrific.

I personally see the statement as inauthentic. There are better analogies for the squelching of dissent than to compare Congress to a Plantation. Plantation was used to pander to an African American audience on a day intended to celebrate a hero of the Civil Rights movement.

[wadestock]

63. THANK YOU

My thread saying the essence of what you are saying was locked.
You have insight into why our party is failing.

We need our democratic representatives and frontrunners for 2008 to articulate the American Dream...which is what it means to be a proud democrat.

Hillary Clinton does not represent a proud democrat.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. African-Americans CLEARLY demonstrated their support of Hillary's....

....remark about the GOP "plantation", and they CLEARLY understood what she meant.

Heck, I'm a 54 year old white southern male and a 33 year registered Democrat, and I CLEARLY understood what she was saying, and applaud her for having the guts to say it.

If you feel you're being "manipulated", that's your problem, not Hillary's.

[warbly]

28. why hasn't she condemned the warrantless wiretapping?

and she wants to be the leader?
that is why she is drawing such flak. she's been noticeably absent for too long, and it was a poor analogy, playing the race card inappropriately.
If she'd stand up Now with consistent rhetoric and actions, I'd get get behind that.
I hope she isn't our best hope for 08. her nomination is not inevitable.
i guess we disagree. peace.

[OzarkDem]

44. Welcome to DU!

Hope you enjoy your visit!

[warbly]

53. gee thanks

i've been enjoying my visit for the last few years.
welcome to du to you too.

[Bridget Burke]

31. You're exactly right.

Hilary Clinton (& Mayor Nagin) were both pilloried for out-of-context remarks.

Everyone bitches about Senator Clinton being too moderate. When she actually speaks out--they bitch even more!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Can't stand her, won't vote for her, but the remark isn't why.

As far as I'm concerned she, and her ilk, is why the Democratic Party has become the "not quite as bad" party. Her "blasting" of the Republcan party is tepid, at best, considering what BushCorp is doing to this country and the world, and hypocritical, at worst, considering her support for rightwing positions.

[rucky]

33. She said the right thing in the wrong way.

it would be insane to nominate her.

[KingFlorez]

41. The Hillary bashers will use any excuse to attack her

I think some people would vote for a Republican over Hillary if given the choice

[OzarkDem]

43. I support her and agree wholeheartedly

There's no need to fall for GOP talking points - Hillary is 110% correct on this.

[Neil Lisst]

45. I'm not a big Hillary fan, but she was right, and the OP is right.

When I see DUers saying the same things the Bushies are all saying on the tube, I get a little sick.

[AlGore-08.com]

47. Your argument implies she couldn't make the point without the metaphor

Sorry, that's wrong.

If she had just said "I predict to you that this administration will go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed our country", and not added the plantation remark, maybe - - just maybe - - we'd be talking about the Smirk admin's possible place in history rather than the plantation remark.

Anybody who thinks this remark will play well with the average human on the street should watch a tape of last night's Daily Show. The audience saw HRC give the remark and did not clap. They did not cheer. They groaned and gasped in disgust. Jon Stewart ridiculed her for it. They made fun of it on the bumper at the end of the show.

If she wanted America to learn that the Smirk admin will go down as one of the worst in history, she picked a stupid way to try and deliver that message. And she picked a way that makes it almost impossible for rank and file Dems to justify. People who are shocked or offended by the remark will not be talked out of their feelings. Explanations and apologies can ease tensions, but they cannot undo the damage. To do as this thread is doing and claim that it's wrong (or politically naive) to feel shocked or offended is even worse - - it's condescending and a vote loser.

And by the way - - "I predict to you that this administration will go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed our country" ain't exactly the Gettysburg Address. It ain't exactly the first time a major Dem has said (basically) "Bush s*cks". It ain't exactly surprising that a Senator, running for re-election, would trash talk the opposition party's President.

It's better than her saying "Bush rules!", but that's about it. Especially since, if you look at her voting record, she voted for a lot of things that will make the Bush admin go down in history as one of the worst that has ever governed. Read her speech praising Michael Chertoff for being the perfect, most competent person possible who would keep all New Yorkers safe - - which she gave before the Senate voted 98-0 to confirm him.

It's no secret that the grassroots hates Bush and the GOP. Anybody who says "Republicans S*ck" becomes the second coming of Christ around here - - no matter what they have done in the past to help Bush get into office (Maureen Dowd is a timely example.) Some day, some empty suit from our side will use this blind spot of ours to rocket themselves into the Presidency. We will have Democratic version of Smirk running around, promising us a progressive utopia and when that person is uncovered as hideously incompetent and/or corrupt and/or trying to destroy Democracy, their knee jerk defense will be "Bush did it". And we will roll over like puppies in joy that our own warped view of the universe is confirmed. It's not our fault! Our side NEVER does anything wrong! President GOPBasher said God said so!

That is where we're heading if we reflexively support every Democrat in every situation, rather than supporting Democrats when they need and deserve it. The plantation remark was a stupid, avoidable mistake. HRC either made it because she's not ready for prime time, or because she wanted to have the GOP attack her over a stupid, avoidable mistake.

And if HRC hadn't made the stupid plantation remark, we might be talking about the things that she did, like vote for the invasion of Iraq, that are important reasons to write "Our Democracy is at stake. We deserve better than from our leaders."

Threads about HRC are one of the few times I wish I had a different screen name, because even if Al Gore had never been born, I would still be a life long Democrat, and I would still feel the same way about HRC and be posting the same things.

[mtnsnake]

51. Your reasoning is filled with so many holes it's funny

First of all, the plantation remark and the remark that I dwelled upon in my OP are two separate statements. I'm not calling up anyone to rally behind her for her plantation remark.

Secondly, if you want to be influenced by a comedy show and its audience, then that's your perogative. Maybe you shouldn't let them push you around so much.

Thirdly, I hardly think she picked a stupid way to deliver the message. Calling Bush's administration the most corrupt in history is one thing, but she got her statement played over and over on national television. It was nice knowing that millions of people finally heard a prominent Democrat stand up and speak for us when she said what she said about Bush. Make no mistake about that. If you want to dwell on the plantation gaff, be my guest.

Look, all I'm doing is focusing on the powerful statements she said in regards to Bush's administration going down in history as the one of the most corrupt and worst ever. But go ahead and tear her apart for that as well as anything else she might do if it makes you feel better about Al Gore.

BTW, don't worry about your screen name. Al Gore would be my own personal favorite right now if I were to pick who I'd want my next president to be. In fact, I posted exactly that this morning: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=174091&mesg_id=174091

[AlGore-08.com]

55. Great choice in 08 candidates ;) - -but to reply seriously point for point

1.) I was replying to the whole thread, not just your OP. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see a number of folks talking positively about the plantation remark.

2.) Again, some of the other posters here (and other threads) talked about the plantation remark in glowing terms. Other threads on the site have claimed that the statement would win votes. I sited the DS coverage for a very good reason: there have been a number of studies that have shown that millions of Americans get their political news from TV comedy and talks shows only. (That's why major pols have routinely appeared as guests on SNL, Letterman and the Tonight Show over the past fourteen years - - and first started appearing on them back in 1972.) The fact that HRC's plantation remark got such a negative reaction from the DS audience is unusual, and it's very hurtful to her. And since it was part of an extended joke about how f*ed the Democratic party is, it was hurtful to every Dem. And I sited the Daily Show audience reaction for another reason. Their negative response isn't my opinion - - it's an observable fact.

3.) HRC got the plantation statement played over and over on national television. I did not see a single clip of her saying any of the statements you posted as being praiseworthy. The news shows I saw did not provide any other context for her remarks other than they were part of an MLK Day speech. I asked a few friends and they said they had only seen the plantation remark. So I respectfully disagree with your third statement.

Finally, I'm not tearing HRC apart because "it makes me feel better about Al Gore". I am trying, probably not very well, to try and ask people to be more critical in what they find praiseworthy in our elected leaders - - and what criteria they use to decide which candidates to support. HRC's remarks about the Bush admin are not surprising at all, given that she's running for re-election - - and given that Bush's poll numbers are in the toilet. If HRC hadn't said the plantation remark, her speech would not have made anything but her own website, the local news - - and a few Democratic blogs/websites. The only reason that anybody knows HRC said that the Bush admin would go down as the worst in history is because people had to rush to find something to use to defend her with, after she made national news with the plantation gaffe.

Bush has been a disaster since day one. Five years into the disaster and we're praising major Dems for saying "Bush is a disaster"? Shouldn't it take a little more to earn our praise than a Dem stating the obvious - - especially when that Dem voted for many of the policies that will go down in history as so bad - - and when the majority of the country now agrees that Bush is a disaster? And especially since most of the Dems who haven't been saying "Bush is a disaster" yet were praising Bush to the skies when Bush's poll numbers were high?

I don't know about y'all, but I have only been to one Dem campaign event when there was a Republican President (or pResident) when the President wasn't trashed - - and that was almost immediately after 9/11. (The 2004 Dem convention came close to being free of overt Bush bashing.) But other than that - - even when the GOP President was extremely popular and the Dem candidate had no way of winning their election - - the Dem candidate and the other speakers played to the base and bashed the President. It's politics 101.

I feel very strongly that we here in the grassroots, especially here at DU, do a bad job of looking at somebody's entire record before deciding to support them. If Zell Miller came out today and said that that Bush should be impeached, he would be the hero du jour. And a day, or a week, or a month later, Miller would do or say something that fit the pattern of his previous behavior, and suddenly DU would be filled with disillusioned posts, wondering how Zell Miller could ever betray us.

The Republican party did their grassroots a huge disservice when they promoted the idea that all Democrats are evil, and all Republicans are good. We are watching the country go down in flames because the Republican base is supporting empty suits who play them for suckers.

We are going down the same road here at DU. Any attempt at discussing the negative qualities of a Dem (and they're all human, so they all have at least some negative qualities) usually devolves into discussions about the possible motives or emotional shortcomings of the person doing the questioning. And they are accompanied by calls to ignore all questions, and instead accept unthinkingly that the Dem being discussed and all Dems are always right and always working in the public interest and always truthful etc., etc., etc. Again, they are all human, so it is not possible for them to never make a mistake or for the Dem party to be full of equally perfect individuals.

To believe that all criticism of Dems - - no matter how mild or justified - - is wrong is setting us and the nation up for failure. Because we create an environment where any Dem elected official can do or say anything hurtful to us, act in any way that is harmful to the country, and provided they give us a few good GOP bashing quotes, they don't just get re-elected, they get promoted. Is that really what we as Democrats need? Is that really what the country needs?

Even if every single Democrat in office today is a paragon of virtue and would never exploit our desire for some real, down home GOP bashing, some day, some totally unscrupulous Faux-Dem will happily exploit us. And they'll joyfully loot the treasury and trash the Constitution as we sing their praises, no matter how many facts we are confronted with. I repeat, that's how the Republicans ended up with Smirk.

If we don't try to hold our leaders to a higher standard, why should they change? Why should the GOP change, if we don't all demand the best, rather than the bare minimum, from our leaders?

There will come a time when every person will have to make an informed decision about who to support in 2006, 2008 and other races. Regardless of who the candidates are (in the general as well as the primary), we do our candidates and us and the nation a huge disservice by grading them on a curve.

[mtnsnake]

57. Wow, what a well thought out post!

Good stuff, Al, however, some quick responses to a few of your points...

"I did not see a single clip of her saying any of the statements you posted as being praiseworthy"

How could the mainstream media post a clip of what she said about Bush in terms of praising her? That would be openly biased if they did. I saw many many clips of her blasting Bush, and it just doesn't matter if they posted it as something praiseworthy or not. The fact that millions of Americans heard a high profile Democrat slamming that SOB is enough satisfaction in itself that I don't need it to be deemed as "praisworthy".

"If HRC hadn't said the plantation remark, her speech would not have made anything but her own website, the local news - - and a few Democratic blogs/websites."

Sorry, but you can't be serious. Her BLISTERING attack is what made the news first. Then the rightwingers took her plantation remark and made a mountain out of a molehill. But you know what? If you're right, and I don't think you are, then Hillary is even smarter than I thought for finding a way to get her attack on Bush so much publicity.

"Bush has been a disaster since day one. Five years into the disaster and we're praising major Dems for saying "Bush is a disaster"? "

This is why her attack on the chimp is so important, BECAUSE it took so long for someone like her and Al Gore to have the guts to blast him with the kinds of words we've been hoping to hear for so long! Geez, Al, you act like Democrats have been bashing him all along or something. This is something BIG!!

"I feel very strongly that we here in the grassroots, especially here at DU, do a bad job of looking at somebody's entire record before deciding to support them. If Zell Miller came out today and said that that Bush should be impeached, he would be the hero du jour. And a day, or a week, or a month later, Miller would do or say something that fit the pattern of his previous behavior, and suddenly DU would be filled with disillusioned posts, wondering how Zell Miller could ever betray us."

I couldn't agree more. It's not just us, though. The entire country seems to live on such a short term memory of what happens last, especially the repukes. When gas prices drop this summer, Bush and the Repugs will be their heroes again and just in time for the November vote.

"To believe that all criticism of Dems - - no matter how mild or justified - - is wrong is setting us and the nation up for failure. Because we create an environment where any Dem elected official can do or say anything hurtful to us, act in any way that is harmful to the country, and provided they give us a few good GOP bashing quotes, they don't just get re-elected, they get promoted. Is that really what we as Democrats need? Is that really what the country needs?"

What we really need is to come together as Dems and stress what we all agree on. First we have to figure out what we all agree on! The problem with our party as I see it is that Democrats care so much about so many things that we're bound to be going in too many directions...at a time when we have to aim towards a common goal.

Hey, even if I don't agree wtih everything you said, I really found your posts interesting...thanks for contributing so nicely. It would be fun getting together with people like you in person!

[jasmeel]

48. The media have again successfully distracted almost

everyone. Even Jon Stewart was talking about it last night. How in the hell can you fight that?

[mtnsnake]

52. Exactly the point of my post.

When everyone should be jumping up and down for joy at the way she handed Bush his ass on a platter, the right wing and the media conveniently found a way out of it by doing just what you said they did...distracting us into petty arguments about a different part of her speech, the plantation thing.

[Cha]

50. I agree! I'll state my reasons

for not wanting hillary clinton as my president because of her stances on the War On Iraq.

I have no problem with the way she expressed herself on Martin Luther King Day!

[butterfly77]

56. The repugs just want to change the subject again...

They are angry because she said in the company of blacks. Do they really think that blacks can think for themselves and can't feel the effects of bush's policies like everyone else. They act as if by hearing the truth they will start a riot.

[im10ashus]

58. K&R baby! K&R!

We have to give her credit for FINALLY speaking what we have all been shouting about for months. Stop the corruption! Demand accountability.

[Spiffarino]

60. Agreed. She doesn't deserve criticism for that remark.

I still won't vote for her unless she's the last candidate left. She's a corporatist. But, she was correct about how Congress is run nowadays and "plantation" is the perfect description.

Now let's get busy and draft Feingold.

[journalist3072]

64. Amen, Amen, Amen.....

Please read my thread here on DU, where I show just how the House Republicans have run shop like a plantation, from holding votes open for extening periods of time, etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=178477&mesg_id=178477

[Justice Is Comin]

65. This is hopeful hypocrisy

to the max.

In order for a remark to be "offensive," the group referenced in the mark have to receive it as an offense to race, religion, gender or creed. Literally almost none of the Blacks condemned it. They were cheering and supportive at the event, and even more so outspoken in support the day after.

Who's offended, the white republicans who used to own slaves, that now feel dirty about it? Please! It was intentional, I'd bet my life on it that she had the word ready to use and just looking for the best question to apply it. It has pulled the saran wrap off the window that the republicans were operating Congress behind, and it has made them squirm that the more of the unaware public has a clear metaphor to relate to why nothing positive is getting done.

It was like an arrow right to the bullseye. And FINALLY she got her voice to join our wagon train. FIVE STARS !!!!


By the way....is there a video of this event somewhere?

[oasis]

66. Larry Elder displaying total outrage on "Hannity and Colmes". They got

him and Michael Steele to comment in Hillary's racism from a black perspective. Ron Christie was punked by Al Sharpton on the subject yesterday so he was damaged goods. Steele showed a smidgen of indignation about Hill's remarks but remained collected throughout the interview.

Elder on the otherhand, was yelling, spitting and constantly repeating himself because he was talking so fast. He put on a pretty good show for the Fox Freeperzoid audience.

Funny, when the segment ended, Elder calmly smiled and said "goodnight Sean". :eyes:

[izzybeans]

67. As Jerry Springer said...the audience she was speaking to

gave her a rousing ovation. usually what that means is, is that they agree, and probably wholeheartedly re: the plantation remark. Her T.V. audience may not be of the same frame of mind, because they aren't really taking part in the context of the speech.

[goodboy]

68. besides, the repukes are a load of racist crackers, and self-hatin'

blacks, and hispanics,and asians, who couldn't be white on the outside so they try to be white on the inside while selling their own people down the river.

Truth hurts repuke scum.

Get used to it.