I'm getting treated here like freeps treat me elsewhere.

[Cary]

What gives?

Okay, so I'm Jewish with a decidedly pro-Israel bias. But I am a solid progressive and have been a member here for several years. I don't post here all that much but I read a lot and until today I have felt completely at home.

This sucks. Who are these posters who feel they can abuse me here?

[LeftCoast]

1. Well, abuse is against the rules and should be alerted on

However, if by abuse, you mean folks disagreeing vehemently with your position? Well, the only cure for that is thicker skin. :shrug:

[Cary]

7. My skin is plenty thick.

I play the game elsewhere. I just don't expect to have to play it here.

[LeftCoast]

9. Honestly, I think this site would be incredibly boring if everyone

agreed with me.

[blonndee]

2. It's happening on "both sides" of the issue.

To both those who defend Israel and those who oppose its actions.

[bryant69]

5. Yes

Both sides are pretty much total bastards when it comes to respecting the other side.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Fredda Weinberg]

3. You're not alone n/t

[WI_DEM]

4. passions are high around here

Many American Jews are among the most progressive and solid of Democrats and it would be a shame to have some people like yourself leave DU over what is happening in the Middle East. I think, somehow, we need to learn to be respectful of everybody's opinions around here.

[anewdeal]

6. suck it up

it's called the internet, don't take it so personally.

[et in Arcadia ego]

8. that sucks

I've been here a long time now, and don't post much, but whether or not I agree with how you feel about ANYTHING, it's impossible to adhere to my own standards and berate someone for feeling differently about something. I hope the majority agrees with me. Tempers run hot these days as we're force-fed a constant diet of truly Shit-Level events in this world, but despite that, the worst we can do is abandon respect towards one another and fall prey to the erroneous belief that 'I am right, You are wrong'..

I can't apologize for the forum, but at least you know that ONE person respects you as another individual entitled to your own opinions and feelings.

[Cary]

16. My point exactly.

"the worst we can do is abandon respect towards one another and fall prey to the erroneous belief that 'I am right, You are wrong'.."

We're about diversity and tolerance. To be otherwise is just too freepish for me.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

11. if you're being abused for discussing progressive topics then...

...I'd be surprised, but probably happy to come to your aid. Care to post a link?

On the other hand, if you're complaining because DUers are criticizing Israel, I'm sorry, but that's what generally happens when progressives discuss racist aggressors bombing non-combatant civilians, trying to escalate a regional conflict, etc. Frankly, I think that if more people knew how Israel conducted itself the condemnation would be even broader, as would the outrage over the degree of support Israel receives from U.S. taxpayers and the amount of influence it wields in U.S. government. Regarding the former, wouldn't you agree that as the folks who are largely footing the bill for Israeli aggression, we have a right to discuss it and call for an end to it?

[Cary]

23. I have no objection to people voicing objection to Israeli aggression.

But being accused of being a "Bush Bot" is abusive, way over the line, outrageous. ..

How would you like being accused of being a "Bush Bot".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2412331

[mike_c]

30. well, first let me say that I agree with you about being called names....

On the other hand, I have been called similar names by DUers in the past-- stick around here long enough and you'll eventually be called a freeper, a bushbot, a traitor, and worse by someone whose debating skills are not up to the task of actually crafting coherent arguments rather than resorting to simple name calling. That doesn't excuse it, of course, but you should understand that it will happen.

I've learned a LOT about letting that sort of thing roll off my back in the time that I've been a member of this community. You will too. I'd recommend that you take The Magistrate's advice and learn to use both the alert button and the ignore link-- both can make your DU experience saner and more enjoyable.

[The Magistrate]

12. If You Feel, Sir

That a post is a personal attack against you, acusing you of being a rightist or a tool of some organization or of being bigoted against any group, then please send us an alert on it: such things are against the rules. If you feel a criticism of either side crosses over the line into hate speech, then, agains, please alert on it, so we can decide if action is required to enforce our rules on that subject.

That said, please remember that this is a subject on which many people feel very passionately. Not all of them will agree with you, and much that is said will be not to your taste.

[Cary]

28. Thank you. I don't believe any of it has crossed that line.

I understand the passions, to some extent. The purpose of my post was to try to understand the passions a little more and perhaps to nip it in the bud a bit.

It could be undesirable even if not technically against the rules. Right? Why not discuss it?

[Malikshah]

13. In the end it will come to definitions--

To preface this remark, though-- I'm not asking to define terms-- I am just stating that in the end folks will want others to explain themselves and their terminology.

What exactly is a "solid progressive?"

Does that definition and all that it entails allow one to condemn or support the current Israeli actions? Does it allow someone to both condemn and support current Israeli actions.

The idea of "not feeling at home" might be addressed by first looking at how one sees oneself as a "solid progressive" and then address those issues to the current debate going on.

[Cary]

29. I can't define "solid progressive" but. . .

suffice it to say that I definitely belong here. It's like porn: I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

[RB TexLa]

14. start trying to defend free trade

talk about getting hit.

[BillZBubb]

15. That's funny. I have no bias and get Freeped by pro-Israelis

1. "You support the terrorists..."
2. "We have to kill civilians, it's part of the cost of war...but we don't target them".
3. "You only tell the terrorists side..."
4. "Israel had no choice..."
5. "If the Lebanese would have obeyed UN 1559, this wouldn't have happened..."
6. "You hate Jews..."
7. "You are an anti-Semite..."
8. "The terrorists are cowards and hide among civilians..."
etc. etc.

Every one of the pro-Israeli arguments is just a few words different from pro-Iraq war Freeper arguments.

The fact is of the matter is most DUers don't like wars where the primary victims are civilians. Most DUers can't stand the sorry excuses and outright lies the leaders of the attacking countries come up with. If you want to parrot such lies and spin, expect to be brought to task.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. I got told today that I want to see Israel get wiped off the map

And that I was secretly gloating over the deaths of Israelis. You don't see me starting any threads complaining about it though. :shrug:

[Ms. Clio]

36. someone complaining on this thread said the same thing about me

and then posted a nasty little piece of hate speech, since deleted.

[Mandate My Ass]

43. It has gotten uglier here than I think I've ever seen it

I have attempted in all my posts to level my criticism at the government's decisions and tactics, and yet I've been blasted with accusations of hating the nation of Israel and wanting to see harm come to all of her people.

I haven't leveled criticism of Israel any differently or more harshly than I did the Iraq invasion and occupation, which would at least be a consistent stance, IMHO. So I just don't get it.

We're all human beings and I don't want to see any of us killed by Hezbollah rockets or American cluster bombs or any weapon that humans raise against each other for whatever reason.

[Ms. Clio]

51. hell, I was intensely critical of Afghanistan, too

and as it happened, I was right -- no bin Laden, and one of the commanders says it's descending into anarchy.

In some ways, this reminds me of the outrage by a lot of people here when the first stories about Gitmo or Abu Ghraib or Haditha began trickling out -- they refused to believe it, and called those who did "anti-American."

[ThomCat]

64. I was told basically the same thing recently.

[malaise]

21. Damn

who could argue with that.

[Cary]

39. Let's see:

1. "You support the terrorists..."

I see your point but I don't find this to be abusive. And while it's something a freep might say, I don't think it's offered by someone like me in quite that context. You may very well be offering up the same arguments that Arabs offer up. In fact you may be an Arab, for all I know.

2. "We have to kill civilians, it's part of the cost of war...but we don't target them".

I don't see how this point is at all abusive. I believe that Israel is doing its best. These aren't easy circumstances.

3. "You only tell the terrorists side..."

Again, maybe you do? How is this abusive?

4. "Israel had no choice..."

Again, how is this abusive? I don't think they did have a choice. How have I abused you when I stated this opinion?

5. "If the Lebanese would have obeyed UN 1559, this wouldn't have happened..."

Ditto.

6. "You hate Jews..."

This is over the line, unless of course you have gone over the line and you really do hate Jews.

7. "You are an anti-Semite..."

Ditto.

8. "The terrorists are cowards and hide among civilians..."
etc. etc.

As best I can tell they are cowards and they are hiding among civilians. Again, how is this abusive?



"Every one of the pro-Israeli arguments is just a few words different from pro-Iraq war Freeper arguments."

The best lies contain some truths. I believe I have taken in the facts and reasoned it out, without succombing to "pro-Iraq war Freeper arguments." I don't expect to encounter this kind of ad hom here as you are coming very close to calling me a freep. It's like hand grenades and atom bombs. I find even close to be highly offensive.

"The fact is of the matter is most DUers don't like wars where the primary victims are civilians. Most DUers can't stand the sorry excuses and outright lies the leaders of the attacking countries come up with. If you want to parrot such lies and spin, expect to be brought to task."

If Hezbollah didn't like wars where the primary victims are civilians, would the Israelis be attacking Hezbollah right now? I think not. You may disagree, but I hear no language of peace coming from Hezbollah or Hamas.

[Mandate My Ass]

trying to be ironic

The best lies contain some truths. I believe I have taken in the facts and reasoned it out, without succombing to "pro-Iraq war Freeper arguments." I don't expect to encounter this kind of ad hom here as you are coming very close to calling me a freep. It's like hand grenades and atom bombs. I find even close to be highly offensive.

That's not an ad hominem, it's an analysis of two strains of argument. Besides, didn't you just start a thread accusing much of DU of being/acting like freeps?

[Mandate My Ass]

47. trying to be ironic

The best lies contain some truths. I believe I have taken in the facts and reasoned it out, without succombing to "pro-Iraq war Freeper arguments." I don't expect to encounter this kind of ad hom here as you are coming very close to calling me a freep. It's like hand grenades and atom bombs. I find even close to be highly offensive.

That's not an ad hominem, it's an analysis of two strains of argument. Besides, didn't you just start a thread accusing much of DU of being/acting like freeps?

[Cary]

52. I disagree.

The hallmark of an ad hom is irrelevance. The identity of one advancing an argument is irrelevant. Even the most vile, heinous, biased human being can say something truthful.

It's absolutely an ad hom.

That's ironic, too, because I've had endless arguments with freeps that their ad homs are ad homs. They deny it, in much the same way you're doing now.

[Mandate My Ass]

56. do you know the definition of ad hominem?

It means attacking the poster and not the post. The example you gave did not do that.

You pooh-poohed every example the poster gave you as offensive remarks or ones irrelevant to the topic at hand but you demand that we accept your definitions, which are dubious at best, and adhere to debate boundaries you subjectively draw.

[Cary]

57. Responding to my points about the conflict by accusing me, . ..

directly or indirectly, of being a "Bush Bot" is an ad hominem.

No way around it, Mandate My Ass. Argue your point, sure, but shove the "Bush Bot" comment.

[Mandate My Ass]

I didn't call you anything. You shove the Bush Bot comment

you started a thread calling us all freeps, then got incensed when someone said other people's explanations for supporting Israel sound like freep arguments. Buh bye, forever. :hi:

[BillZBubb]

65. Oh please! The hypocrisy is off the charts.

You say people here treat you like freepers do because you have an admitted bias. So, you are in essence calling some group here of being "freeperish". That's an ad hominem.

I say Israeli supporters use freeperish "logic" in their blind support of Israel. You say that's an ad hominem. I hardly think so, it's just pointing out the similarity of the hollow spin based cant. Anything to support their hobby horse: either war in Iraq or Israel.

I know you don't see this issue rationally, but please try to be honest.

[Cary]

84. You don't understand the concept of "ad hominem".

"I say Israeli supporters use freeperish "logic" in their blind support of Israel. You say that's an ad hominem. I hardly think so, it's just pointing out the similarity of the hollow spin based cant. Anything to support their hobby horse: either war in Iraq or Israel."

Not an ad hominem? BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

"I know you don't see this issue rationally, but please try to be honest."

Not an ad hominem? More BWAHAHAHAHA.

Clue: talk about my argument--not me.

I admit my bias because I'm honest. Your use of my honesty against me is lame, and it is indeed yet another fallaceous argumentative strategy I have encountered in freep-ville.

One gains credibility by admitting the weaknesses of their case. I know. I am a professional, and it is quite obvious to me that your skills are lacking.

No, that's not an hominem. It is my professional opinion but I don't expect that you will understand the distinction.

[Warren Stupidity]

107. BWAHAHAHAHAHA?

You know what? When I see any poster descending to that level of childishness I no longer care what they have to say. If you think you are being abused, alert the moderators.

[midnight]

104. Nice exchange of information here.

You were not rude, but laid out some points that need to be recognized. I especially like the fact that most DU'ers don't like war were the primary victims are civilians. Good job. I have family members that are Jewish, and I have friends that are Arab. This is just not an acceptable way to deal with conflict.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. What abuse are you talking about?

Does it have something to do with this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2412331

[Jacobin]

18. If you have a bias that says

"Israel right or wrong", kinda like "america love it or leave it" I would think you could figure out why, under current circumstances, some people might not agree with you.

But thats just me

[BOSSHOG]

20. Its because you are a Bears Fan

the only Bear worth a damn (not counting Peyton) was Dan the Manster Hampton. I went to school with Dan at Arkansas in the 70's; I had one class with him and he was one big fucking Monster, but a teddy "bear" if you will, a very nice guy.

Actually I'm on neither side of the Israeli, Hezbollah conflict, but I am incredibly pro cease fire and pro negotiation. Let us all negotiate till the cows come home and then negotiate some more; so the kids can at least grow up instead of being blown up. I offer the same two cents worth to bush's disaster in Iraq.

[mikeytherat]

26. Hey, BOSS, there's at least one other Bear worth a damn - my cousin!

Dennis Lick - OT - #70

http://www.chicagobears.com/includes/display/printArticle.jsp?id=6184

He's a teddy bear of a guy, too.

mikey_the_rat

[BOSSHOG]

31. Okay Mikey

I was just trying to lighten the load on the original poster. I'm a Saints fan. Can you feel my pain? Actually my number one team is the Eagles but my heart bleeds for the very close number two Saints week in and week out, year in and year out, decade in and decade out.

SAINTS CAMP STARTS TOMORROW IN JACKSON MISSISIPPI

ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?

[mikeytherat]

35. I know you were just lightening the mood...

but I have to defend family (Dennis is really cool guy, too)! And, yes, I feel your pain, and I am REALLY ready for some football (I'm also a Cubs fan - sigh).

Hall of Fame Game August 6 - the season is almost here!

mikey_the_rat

[Cary]

42. He was great, too.

Unfortunately he had some injuries.

[mikeytherat]

70. Dennis had The Family Knee, as did I (blew my knee out high school

playing football). Denny's knees were the real issue - I definitely feel his pain.

And on that side of my family, all of the guys are huge like Dennis - I'm 6'2"/225 and they called me "Tiny" at the reunion!

mikey_the_rat

[Cary]

41. Dan Hampton. . .

Very highly regarded, but still under rated as far as I am concerned.

IMHO Mike Singletary was nothing without Hampton and McMichael in front of him. Singletary could run the sidelines better than anyone. Hampton and McMichale freed him up to do it.

[BOSSHOG]

45. And Hampton

looked awesome in Red and White at Razorback stadium those fantastic fall afternoons in the late 70's back in the foothills of the Ozarks. Those were my good old days. I got to say it again, he was one huge human being.

[reichstag911]

48. It's painful...

...to watch Danimal walk now, though, after all those knee surgeries.

[mdmc]

22. Hey - at least you care about something one way or the other

Better then fuck em both...
Stay true and peace

[Vinnie From Indy]

24. Being pro-Israel is OK.

Being pro-Israel in all situations, on all issues and on all policy matters is kind of silly and would mark anyone holding that view as an extremist. Even Israeli's disagree as do many in the diaspora with the policies of the Israeli government.

[B Calm]

33. Exactly! I hate to think I would have to support everything my government

does because I'm an American!

[tinfoilinfor2005]

25. I am a Christian so how much abuse do you think I swallow here?

On some days (especially when the nut job fundies are at it) every other person I talk either finds Christianity disdainful or downright criminal. But I try to understand their anger and frustration. Those crazy bastards drive me nuts, too, and I hate that they claim to represent me.

I think for the most part, even though there are disagreements, we all pretty much respect the other guy's views. You won't find that in freeperville, my friend. :)

[LittleClarkie]

61. Oh yeah, "Fuck them all" is always such a fun attitude to deal with

No one group is "all" anything.

[Cary]

62. I hear you, friend. (n/t)

[sgxnk]

27. i like the debate here - will i be flamed

but the idea that DU is "different" and we are about tolerance etc.

i see no more tolerance for different viewpoints here, than i see on libertarian or conservative forums

because the ideas are different, but PEOPLE are the same

people attack, demonize, belittle, mock etc. things that are different from them

people with different ideas are automatically assigned either to be idiots/illinformed or evil

look at abortion

hey, im prochoice

but i am not gonna fall into that trap of thinking others who disagree with prochoice are just "antiwomen", "evil" etc. etc. etc.

i've done a LOT of traveling in my life, and if there is one thing i am certain of - people are the same

the scenery changes, the background music might be a little different... but that's about it

i see the EXACT same (among some posters) logical inconsistencies, ad hominems, syllogisms, cognitive dissonance, etc. here as i do in other forums

because people are people.

it's just totally yin/yang dood.

there are some on the left who are great, and some who suck. and some on the right who are great, and some who suck

maybe it's because i have such an eclectic family. i have family members ALL over the spectrum, but almost to a "t" , they are all wonderful, caring, compassionate people who want what's best for everybody

so, clearly ideology has little bearing to the goodness in one's heart.

imo

(dons flame retardant suit)

[Warren DeMontague]

32. At least no one has called you a "secular whackjob", a "materialst", or

even a (gasp!) "libertarian"

I particularly like it when they write the last one like they're waving a paper plate covered with poop under my nose.

Anyway, buck up. Look, I support Israel's right to exist. I have friends there, I understand the historical context, I know who Hezbollah is.

But I've been appalled- absolutely appalled- at their behavior Israel has displayed the past few days. Aside from being clearly, morally wrong, I think it is counter-productive and destructive from every long term strategic and practical standpoint, too. I support Israel's right to defend itself- but I can't imagine how this all could possibly fall under the heading of "self-defense".

It's a humanitarian mess over there right now. People are upset and enraged, and justifiably too I might add. But if someone gets too personal with you, hit the alert button.

[bowens43]

34. So you are Israel???

I doubt very much that anyone here was abusing you. If you feel abused , leave. BUt don't expect us to support the murder of hundreds of Innocent people because you got your feelings hurt.

[jonnyblitz]

37. you should expect disagreement if you take the RW stance

on an issue. :shrug: Supporting or turning a blind eye to slaughter is usually not a value much supported on a progressive discussion board the last time I checked.

[Recursion]

54. That's a circular answer though

I'm not on his side in the Israeli/Lebanon dust-up, so I don't know, but I am pretty violelently disagreed with for being pro-2nd-amendment, and I hear that a lot: "stop taking the RW stance and we'll stop treating you like a RW'er". The problem is, I think the Democratic stance on that one issue is RW, and the GOP stance on that one issue is progressive. My guess would be that he feels the same way.

How do you determine what the "truly" progressive stance on an issue is?

[ruggerson]

79. Like Boxer, Feingold, Kerry and all those other Rightwingers?

n/t

[chill_wind]

100. THANK YOU! nt

[karlrschneider]

38. Are the attacks against you personally, or your position?

If the former, that's not appropriate (or permitted), but please don't confuse the two. I don't think
you are suggesting it's not okay to criticize the policies of the Israeli -government- just as I'm
fairly sure you have no problem with us when we jab a finger in the eye of our own. :-)

[Cary]

55. Accusing me of being a "Bush Bot"?

You tell me.

[karlrschneider]

69. I didn't see that which is why I asked. Whoever did it was breaking

the rules and alerting is the proper response. Do you have any thoughts on the rest of my post?
For what it's worth, one of my closest friends for over 50 years, Leon K------, (I was proud to
attend his Bar Mitzvah in 1954) isn't thrilled by the Israeli government the last couple of decades.

[Warren Stupidity]

108. Nobody here in this thread called him a bush bot.

The poster just made that up.

[Minnesota Libra]

40. Cary, unfortunately there is a definite "yes crowd" mentality..........

.....at DU. Some people want others to confirm exactly what they already believe and nothing more. When someone such as yourself or me doesn't echo what others want to hear they are ignored and sometimes even verbally abused. You know what, that speaks volumes of a negative nature about them - not you.

You shouldn't feel bad, you shouldn't apologize, and you most definitely SHOULD NOT even hint at asking to be accepted for what you believe. You are entitled to your beliefs and to voice your beliefs, in this case write them, regardless of what others think. If you aren't automatically accepted, and especially if you are mistreated in any way INSTANTLY pass it on to the mods. If nothing is done at that level then take it straight to Skinner himself.

In the meantime, join a limited club of those who take the time and effort to see the other side of this entire Middle East issue.

[Karmadillo]

44. Any examples? The mods are pretty good about stopping

personal insults.

[Cary]

46. I've answered this.

I believe I was accused of being a "Bush Bot", although I have to admit that this particular post was less that artful.

[blonndee]

72. Cary, you said earlier that you didn't find it abusive

for critics of Israel to be called "terrorist supporters," so why do you find it abusive to be accused of being a "Bush Bot"? I myself think such accusations--both of them--are wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1737678&mesg_id=1737961

[Cary]

75. I didn't say that it was okay to call them "terrorist supporters"

Re-read my entire statement on the point. I said something else completely. I do try to be precise.

I did say that the poster might be an Arab, but please notice that I did not say that in a derogatory manner. I know several Arabs and we purposely avoid this topic.

But you tell me what I'm missing here. How do you rationalize having an organization on the Israeli border, armed to the teeth and trained by Iran and Syria, whose primary purpose is the destruction of Israel? How do you rationalize Hezbollah's strategy of weaving itself into the civilian population of Lebanon? How do you find that to be anything except cynical and irresponsible? How do you justify Hezbollah's extra-governmental presence, armed with 20,000 rockets and missiles designed not for military purposes but rather for civilian casualties?

What do you expect Israel to do? Do you expect them to just die, or what?

[blonndee]

76. Is THAT what I said? My god, man! You are WAY off!

I asked you a question about what you consider to be abuse and THAT's what you got out of it???? Holy shit!

I'm seriously questioning your ability to interpret what people post on this board. Seriously, dude. Tone it down, for your own good.

[cushla_machree]

105. Well

Maybe the organization on the Israeli border is in reponse to the position of the Israelis on thier own borders, which by all accounts, is anything but a position of 'defense.'

What do you expect the Palestinians to do, just die, or what?

And this is exactly why this war wages on.

[rateyes]

49. Glad you recognize your bias....

...a lot of people don't.

I encourage you to browse this site:

www.notinmyname.org

[oberliner]

50. Holding positions held by Feingold, Clark, and Kerry

Should not lead to accusations of being a "Freeper" or claims that you take a "RW stance"

Being told "If the Lebanese would have obeyed UN 1559, this wouldn't have happened..." is not "being Freeped"

This is a position held by most Democrats in Congress.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with it is of course one's perogative, but it's not "freeping". I

Just like saying "Israel had a right to defend themselves" is taking a stance that is shared by every progressive Democrat in Congress, the Secretary General of the UN, and numerous UN reprensetatives.

You may violently disagree with that position, but it is one that is shared by a lot of people who are very progressive. Even by those who are completely against the action Israel is taking right now.

[LanternWaste]

53. 'What a piece of work is man...

There's a list of topics I usually refrain from posting a reply to (or even opening the thread in the first place) because both sides are unusually stubborn and refuse to allow additional perspectives to enter the conversation w/o becoming rather... "uncivil" in the mode of discourse.

The list of these topics include (but are certainly not limited to): Judaism/Zionism, Abortion, Video Game Violence, American Christianity, LIHOP/MIHOP, Gun Ownership, PETA, and for some odd reason, the JFK Assignation Theories.

Somrtimes it seems that regardless of which position you take on any of the above, sooner or later the implication becomes clear: "You hate America/Can't be a Progressive/Must be dumb because you belive in magic thinking/Favor an Absolute Nanny State"

It's weird. As though we validate ourselves with our own opinions on these topics and see disagreement as a threat to our identities.

Such is human nature, I believe. 'What a piece of work is man..." and all that.

[lonestarnot]

58. I'm sorry. You need thick skin here or some good oil.

[Cary]

59. What bothers me most is that the damn freeps can use this as . . .

a wedge issue.

[lonestarnot]

63. I'm not worried about those freaks. It's the machines that worry me.

The machines and those who would hack them.

[Cary]

74. lonestarnot. . .

Hmmmmm.

Is this a reference to a poster on another board?

[lonestarnot]

98. Nope. I would more than likely get into trouble by pointing

someone out than beating around a bush. LOL just my nature.

[Marie26]

60. DU is a mean place sometimes

Especially if you have an unpopular opinion & especially on an issue that's so inflammatory. There's nothing wrong w/having an opposing opinion, but if someone is being personally insulting, I'd suggest just alerting or putting them on ignore.

[im10ashus]

66. Hit alert.

Or ignore if it's persistently annoying. You are as entitled to your opinions as the rest of us. Just be prepared to hear a difference of opinion with a hot button issue such as this.

[savemefromdumbya]

67. 'Zionist' problem

a lot of people don't agree with the Zionist/USneocon policies that dictate our world right now.

[Cary]

73. You see, I take offense at this whole notion of "Zionist/USneocon"

You are channeling neo Nazi rhetoric whether you realize it or not. I really wish you would take a step back.

[Baclava]

86. I doubt there are any Nazi's here

Just your average, everyday Jew-haters.

[savemefromdumbya]

102. hell, no - no Nazis here

[savemefromdumbya]

101. it is ironic that we have adopted the fascism in Israel

there should be no offense. Israel is ruled by right wing fascists. It is a pity that so many support such policies - isn't it ironic?

[Amy6627]

68. That happens to me every so often. I take a break for a little while. n/t

[alfredo]

71. Some of us have mixed feelings about Israel. Love the people

but have problems with the government. ( I had problems with Sharon which goes back to the six day war)

I was in Army intelligence during the 6 day war, my friend was supposed to be on the USS Liberty the day it got attacked. I have harbored a lot of anger over that, not just at those who ordered the attack, but at those in our government that did nothing to stop the attack, and then sided with Israel over our own servicemen. I had to keep that inside me for over 30 years. I had to watch in silence while those who knew the truth lied about the attack. I knew the truth in real time. I knew what was going on as it happened. It was a turning point for me. I no longer trusted my government.


All we want is an admission and an apology from Israel and the US. That's all. We know the truth, we know the hows and whys. I had to be quiet while the lies were told and retold. Our country has turned their backs on the brave souls who suffered the bombs and bullets of a friend. I would be just as angry if it had been England or Australia that attacked our ship while it was sitting in international waters.

A drinking buddy, a major in the Israeli army came up to me a few weeks after the attack and expressed sympathy. That went a long way, but not all the way to healing my wounds. I don't know how much he knew, and I am somewhat sure he didn't know what I knew, but we left it at that because of our positions and our friendship.

Some time ago I saw his son on TV. He was a snot nosed kid when I knew him, but he grew up to be a fine looking man and an officer in the Israeli Military. He looked just like his dad. I wonder if he liked to drink and raise hell like his dad.


You got to understand that much of what you see as Israel bashing is brought on by the frustration of the situation.

[LaPera]

77. I don't like the Bears!

Booo Hooooooo....I'm a born & raised Niner fan!!!

[question everything]

78. My sympathies

Israel has always been a pariah on DU and the recent events released negative Pavlovian reactions.

DUers post opinions based on ignorance "Egypt attacked in 1973 to reclaim the land taken in 1956.."

DUers even question the existence of the State of Israel (but not of the US).

DUers cannot differentiate between the occupied territories and the fight of the Palestinians there for their own land, and between the recent attacks from Gaza and from Lebanon that are sovereign countries infiltrating Israel borders, killing and abducting soldiers.

DUers cannot differentiate between Fatah - the main party of the Palestinians that was fighting for Palestinian independence - and Hamas and Hezbollah that are radical muslim groups intent on eliminating Israel from the map. Of course, these groups find a welcome mat by the DUers who question the right of Israel to exist.

Hezbollah's Nassralla claimed that he wished all the world Jewry gather in Israel, to save him from going after Jews worldwide. And not a single DUer commented on this, while still claiming that they are anti-Israel but not anti-Semites..

Last, the moderators easily lock threads that are pro-Israel, but not the ones praising Hezbollah. In my case, a nameless moderator moved it to the I/P forum, even though they are about the "Jewish Problem" following WWII. A thread that was civilized and interesting but once it was moved to the I/P, it was promptly locked becasue... it was not about recent article.

And the irony that DUers, who harshly criticize the WWJD crowd in this country and the influence that fundamentalist Christians have on the Bush administration, embrace a muslim fundamentalist group like Hezbollah. They refuse to listen to other opinions describing the jihadists as wanting to reclaim the golden age of Islam from the fist Millennium. That attacking Israel now is just an excuse.

Those of us who do look at the facts, who do question rabid attacks on Israel need to keep posting and correcting at least facts. Once I correct facts, there are no additional responses.

We may be treated like freepers, but they are the ones who are. Who just throw their opinions, who choose to visit clearly anti-Israel sites without questioning what they read and what they hear.

The saddest thing is that Republicans can have a field day harvesting threads here and advertise them before November saying: are these the people you want in the government? And we can kiss any chance of winning back Congress good bye.

[Cary]

80. Obviously, Question Everything, you and I are on the same page on this n/t

[oberliner]

82. this post is brilliant

Are there many more voices like yours at DU?

I hope so!

[ruggerson]

83. This post deserves its own thread

Bravo. Please write this as an OP.

[question everything]

99. Thank you. I've tried several times

and they ended up being transferred to I/P or locked.

You may want to read the one that I moved to my journal

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/question%20everything/26

[Cary]

85. Indeed, I third the notion that your post is excellent.

You've said everything that I've been trying to say. <tips hat>

[Cameron27]

88. Excellent post

Thank you

Recommended

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. I'm sorry, QA, but one doesn't have to love Hezbollah to

find Israel's all-out attack on Lebanon appalling.

My feelings that the U.S. should not have massively fire-bombed every city with a population of over 300,000 in Japan during World War II does NOT mean that I supported the Japanese militarists.

Some of us are against this attack on Lebanon because it's bad for Israel.

For those of us who have no identification with either side, it looks as if the current Israeli government is thinking, "We're going to keep killing Arabs until they start liking us."

It's a crazy revenge cycle, as senseless as anything that ever happened in medieval Japan, where blood feuds were carried out across the generations.

[newsguyatl]

81. that's funny, i'm american and

i don't have a pro-america bias.

didn't support the decision to invade iraq, and i don't support israel's decision to slaughter the lebanese people.

[crim son]

87. I wonder if the abuse is really personal.

As you say, you don't post here that much. The issue at hand appears to support no middle ground, and people are passionate about their stance.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

[treestar]

89. Someone disagreed with you?

Did you label them a terrorist supporter, perchance?

[Cary]

92. I don't recall exactly but I don't think so.

I distinguish between "you are using the same arguments as the terrorists" and "you are a terrorist supporter". Others don't seem to comprehend that distinction.

They're wrong. If you don't comprehend that distinction then you're wrong too. <shrug>

[in_cog_ni_to]

90. Hope you have on your flame proof suit. The RADICAL Progressive movement

is in the process of alienating the American Jewish voters for '06 and '08 out of their hatred for Israel and their support of Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO, ect.. How many American Jewish voters voted for John Kerry, you ask? 78%!!!! Right now, the anti-Israel DUers are spitting in their faces. Then they'll wonder why they lost the '06 and '08 elections. :eyes:
ONE thing that gives me hope? HOWARD DEAN, THE DARLING OF THE PROGRESSIVES, CALLED MALIKI AN ANTI-SEMITE! :rofl::rofl: Howard supports Israel. LOL!

There are a few of us Israel supporters here. We are far and few between and are ALWAYS shouted down by the vociferous and relentless Israel haters, but we are here. We are defending Israel's RIGHT to defend herself from psycho Hezbollah terrorists.

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[Cary]

91. Well I've been here for over 3 years, but thanks anyway.

I have gotten private mail that suggests that there are many more of us than you might suspect. There are posters who simply don't want to discuss the issue because they're disgusted.

As I said before, I'm very concerned about the rethuglicans potential use of this issue.

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. Oh yeah. The repukes WILL use this in Novemeber. They're probably

building a DU thread database as we type. They use DUer's words against the party ALL the time. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, O'LIElly and company read DU. They're lovin' this. There goes the Jewish votes for Democrats. People here just don't care if we lose those votes and the next 2 elections because THEY HAVE PRINCIPLES.:eyes: The repukes will use these posts...mark my word.

[Don Claybrook]

110. Go wash Hannity's car for him. It might change his mind

Have whatever opinion you want and don't cower in a corner wondering what the right wing fuckwit punditry will say. Good christ, what do you think you'll accomplish by bootlicking at the feet of Rush Limbaugh et al?

[in_cog_ni_to]

111. ohfercryingoutloud. They read these boards, they post the shit posted here

and if you don't think they will make hay in November with all this anti-Israel bullshit posted here lately, I suggest you wake up. Democrats cannot lose the Jewish vote and that's just a FACT. Stay tuned...we only have 4 months until the election. I'd say the anti-Israel crowd is handing out the '06 anti-Israel talking points that WILL BE attributed to Dems by Limbaugh and Insannity. That won't be on MY head. I'll be completely guilt free. Thank you.

[Generator]

93. There's so much hysteria

and hyperbole around here it becomes hysterical. I've decided to watch. There is no "debate" around here on the issue anymore. It's not possible. Not when some accuse you of being a co-murderer-and scream ridiculous things like genoicde!and my personal favorite-yes it's not really funny but it is bad funny-"This is the Jews final solution for the Arabs." Sorry if I laugh out loud at some of it. And another one-this is just the "fringe wing" of Hezbollah-you know not the good Hezbollah.

The thinking around here is as simplistic and reactionary as any good right wing site, that is certain. I too have been kinda of shocked by some DU'ers but mostly it's the same ten people screaming the same thing on every thread.
The hyperbole and hysteria does not help one's case. But that is not the point. The point of for many on DU is to vent emotion. Not to learn anything or debate anything or possibly see the other side. (And I have loved being able to vent my emotion about the madness of the Bush years, much of this place is not about debate but just sharing)

All emotion. They have the moral high ground. They are better than you. You are bad. It's that simple. You cannot debate with those that believe because you believe something you are evil. It doesn't work.

[tlsmith1963]

94. I Won't Call You Names

My problem is with the leadership of Israel, not you personally. I won't call any of the Jewish people at DU names. It's stupid.

Tammy

[The Backlash Cometh]

96. If they are abusing you personally, they are wrong, but if they are

abusing your position in regards to Israel, it's free game. Personally, I think Israel has overplayed their hand and someone has to tell them. For crying out loud, they're bombing people who have supported them in the past! How stupid is that?

[BlueJac]

97. Everyone is being abused........

but it doesn't make it right! It is easy to type out the words and click post message.

[Crunchy Frog]

106. Who has been abusing you?

I find that the alert button is very effective for personal attacks and for broad brush bigoted statements about religious and ethnic groups.

There are some people here who percieve any criticism of Israeli policy as being personal against them. I know that sometimes it can be difficult to separate things out when you feel very deeply about a particular issue. I hope that this board will become better able to tolerate dissent without making it personal or taking it personally.

Please don't hesitate to hit "alert" on any post that does attack you personally.

[YOY]

109. Get tough

As long as you're not a true blue moran and can defend your POV you'd best develop a thick skin.

[Lex]

112. Locking.

This thread is a flamefest.