I Would Like To Apologize To Jewish DU'ers

[ruggerson]

I have been disgusted and appalled by some of the comments here over the last week. Please know that there are many non-Jews who support Israel fully and understand that none of this would be occurring without Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism having instigated it.

I don't understand the mindset that condemns civilian casualties in retaliatory attacks, but fails to condemn the years of terrorism that preceded it.

Please remember that virtually the entire Democratic leadership in this country stands with you, it is easy to forget that when you spend a couple of hours reading some of the posts written here in the last few days.

Most of all, let's hope for peace. Both the Israelis and their surrounding neighbors deserve it after all these years of bloodshed.

[brentspeak]

1. Well said

[Misskittycat]

99. Thank you. n/t

[SammyBlue]

118. Yes, thank you. One DUer I know has left DU and hates the site because

of the Israel bashing. As she put it "why should I talk to people who would rather see my family dead."

Thank you for your sentiments.

[laura888]

2. "Most of all, let's hope for peace."

How can you say that, when Israel has so clearly rejected peace?

[Taxloss]

8. A one-sided ceasefire is not peace.

Hezbollah is fighting as well, you know.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Is Hezbollah opposed to a cease fire?

I doubt it.

[Taxloss]

21. Yes, it is opposed to a ceasefire.

Hezbollah has zero interest in or sympathy for Lebanon - it is a proxy army for Syria and Iran, as much an occupying force as Israel, if not more so - Hezbollah didn't withdraw in 2000. The Beirut government has no love for Hezbollah.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Can you back that up?

[Taxloss]

26. Which part?

This covers a lot of the ground:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/tony_bayfield/2006/07/facing_the_truth_about_hizbull.html

As does Jonathan Freedland today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1830180,00.html

[laura888]

51. "Israel's enemies have the whole of the western world in their sights."

According to one of your quoted sources.

Phew. Amazing.

[Taxloss]

53. Did you actually read that column

whcih was, incidentally, written by a liberal rabbi and scholar, and is on Guardian Unlimited, the world's largest and best-respected left-wing newspaper website?

On edit: To clarify, Iran openly backs Hezbollah, and its stated intention is to wipe out Israel, not liberate Lebanon, a state about which neith Hezb nor Iran care.

[laura888]

57. This was an editorial, no? If you have some factual accounts...

...to back this up, please share.

The argument that "enemies are at the gate" is eerily similar to past fears of communism. You can understand my skepticism, I'm sure.

[Taxloss]

60. Iran is presently putting up banners "reminding" Muslims that it is

their "duty" to wipe Israel off the map, and carrying pictures of Nasrallah. And Iran's PM has openly and repeatedly called for the destruction of Israel. The Freedland column is full of juicy facts about Iran's heavy-weapon support for Hezbollah - are you suggesting that he's lying?

[laura888]

72. I'd say that it is tit for tat

Iran has been getting some mighty aggressive words from Israel and the U.S. for a while now.

They are quite aware they could be next. Of course they are on the defensive (and possibly showing some swagger).

[Taxloss]

79. Israel is not reminding Jews that it is their "duty"

to wipe Lebanon or Syria off the map. There's no equivalent tit for that level of tat.

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. No, it will consider a ceasefire

It said so on Tuesday:

Thus far, Hizbullah has had surprising military successes, while maintaining its position in the face of Israel's superior fire power, and preserved its capacity to wage a long-term war. But Hizbullah is still ready to accept a ceasefire and negotiate indirectly an exchange of prisoners to bring the current crisis to an end.

Ali Fayyad is a senior member of Hizbullah's executive committee

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1827966,00.html

And Hizbullah is a Lebanese organisation, altouhgh funded by Iran and Syria. It was impossible for it to 'withdraw' anywhere. It has 23 members in the Lebanese parliament, and two ministers in the coalition government.

[Taxloss]

83. The majority of Lebanese do not like Hezbollah one bit.

It is a Syrian/Iranian proxy, and its Lebanese supporters are largely considered to be extremists who would like to end Lebanon's present pluralism, an are more interested in fundamentalist dogma than Lebanese stability or sovereignty.

Hezbollah's definition of ceasefire is hardly encouraging if you see that it took Israel's withdrawl from lebanon as an invitation to attack Israel directly.

[muriel_volestrangler]

94. It remains a Lebanese group, just as the Provisional IRA was Irish

not American. Like the PIRA, it came into existence to oppose what many in an area (southern Lebanon, Northern Ireland) saw as an occupation by another country, and has significant support in a major segment of the country.

It does use terrorism against Israel, but the 15 people killed in attacks on Israel in over 5 years since the withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon are dwarfed by the current Lebanese deaths.

Just as the IRA could come to a ceasefire, it's possible for Hizbullah to.

[Taxloss]

95. I hope we see that, I really do.

But as I said, 2000 withdrawal was a big political risk for Israel, and Hezbollah has used it to give the Israeli hawks justification when they say it was a mistake.

[brentspeak]

24. I do

Hezbollah was supposed to disband when Israel left Southern Lebanon. Instead, they carved out their own little illegal occupation of that territory, and recently decided to jump across the border to kill and kidnap some Israeli soliders.

[CuteNFuzzy]

27. you are against illegal occupations?

[brentspeak]

32. Uh, yeah. Aren't you?

[CuteNFuzzy]

36. then I assume you are also against the illegal occupation in Palestine

[brentspeak]

39. Then I assume you didn't answer the question

[CuteNFuzzy]

43. clever

yes I am against illegal occupations.

you are also against the illegal occupation in Palestine?

[brentspeak]

45. What illegal occupation in Palestine?

There's no independent nation known as "Palestine".

[CuteNFuzzy]

48. again, very clever

forget it

[Taxloss]

46. I think you mean "the West Bank", not Palestine. n/t

[Taxloss]

33. The trouble is this.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, which was the right thing to do, ending its illegal occupation. The deal was meant to give Israel's northern border stability, and make Lebanon more stable into the bargain. But instead Hezbollah decided to simply use the withdrawal to launch attacks into Israel proper. Olmert was left with little choice but to re-establish the buffer zone.

Jonathan Freedland says the same thing in today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1830180,00.html

[demosincebirth]

81. I agree.

Some here are so far to the left that they think that all Hizbollah, AlQueda and Hamas, want is peace.

If by some chance peace would come to the ME, they would all have to get real jobs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. "retaliatory" + "terrorism"

I'd like to apologize to muslim DUers...

[liberaldemocrat7]

28. The Republicans who support Jews over there ....

would eagerly cut the social security and medicare for Jewish grandmothers over here.

Considering that hezbollah and hamas places their rockets in houses and mosques and hospitals, hezbollah and hamas kills their own civilians because they use civilians as a shield.

You don't see Jews using their civilians as a shield.

However Jews in Israel do eventually need to live side by side with the palestinians and the Lebanese.

[SammyBlue]

119. IT goes both ways.

[CuteNFuzzy]

4. Do you support or oppose

burning children in the face with white phosphorous?

[laura888]

5. Bingo! WTF else matters at this point? n/t

[hopeisaplace]

121. This is how I feel too, what came first, the chicken or the egg

is irrelevant at this point...the manner in which this situation is being handled,
along with the manner it is escalating, is bloody scary. It's like tic-tac-toe,
there will be no winner.


edit:typo.

[chimpymustgo]

7. I'd like to apologize to all the slaughtered innocents, whose homes have

been destroyed, whose country, raped and pillaged.

That's who is in pain right now.

[malaise]

50. Bingo n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

16. heck no, they smell like fresh bacon

and taste even better.

Sorry. I have been lurking on some rah-rah freeper sites, and I cannot believe how pro-violence/war/death they are.

[burythehatchet]

20. Why is that hard to believe

they are impressionable people who are imprinted with the neuroses and psychosis' of their dear leader.

[chimpymustgo]

25. So much more of that here than I'd ever dreamed possible.

Truly sad, the bloodthirst and lack of apology for it.

[RagingInMiami]

6. Just cause you're against what we've done in Iraq

Doesn't mean you have to apologize to every American.

[CuteNFuzzy]

10. good call

[K8-EEE]

12. No Kidding!

It's like saying you're "un-American" to think the Iraq war is not "saving" us from anything but just creating more violence. THAT'S THE TRUTH!

[K8-EEE]

9. Oh, Stop It

It's condescending to think every Jewish DUer or Jewish Dem is OK with what they are doing.

Fleeing civilians? Ambulances? UN personnel? Sorry, I'm not OK with it, and don't understand how anybody could be.

[porphyrian]

11. I'd also like to apologize to Arab DUers...

...who get lumped in with the terrorists so often after 9/11, though not so much here on DU. This is a difficult and emotional time for everyone involved, and I hope we can continue to keep an open dialogue about it here in hopes that some kind of understanding can be reached.

[JerseygirlCT]

102. Absolutely nt

[burythehatchet]

13. Wow, that's big of you.

:thumbsup:

[Taxloss]

15. Nominated.

And it's interesting that your peaceful post has stirred up some rather nasty responses from the soi-disant "doves" on DU.

[BillZBubb]

17. Wow, you are such a humanitarian!

You must be so proud. You "don't understand...": exactly, that sums you up in a nutshell.

[Clark2008]

18. Jews are people. Israel is a government, a state.

Why do you feel the need to apologize for people questioning a STATE action?

No one was blaming Jews. They were blaming the Israel GOVERNMENT.

[CuteNFuzzy]

30. unfortunately

some loser here recently was calling for a need to "disperse the Jews again" :(

but your points remain quite valid

[Teaser]

19. What a shitty little straw man you've set up:

I don't understand the mindset that condemns civilian casualties in retaliatory attacks, but fails to condemn the years of terrorism that preceded it.


a canonical straw man.

[DireStrike]

23. Yeah, all these damn hamas supporters that hope for violence...

they really get on my nerves with all their posts. :sarcasm:

To elaborate - the vast majority does not condemn Israel without condemning hamas/hezbollah whatever. It doesn't need to be said. Further, nobody is hoping for violence. Your post is childish and filled with straw men.

In fact, let me do a line-by-line.

>>I Would Like To Apologize To Jewish DU'ers

What does anyone being Jewish have to do with this? Israel is a government. You really should not apologize for others' actions.

>I have been disgusted and appalled by some of the comments here over the >last week. Please know that there are many non-Jews who support Israel >fully and understand that none of this would be occurring without >Hezbollah and Hamas terrorism having instigated it.

Implication - there have been many posts by people who are not Jewish (you can tell - they don't support israel, therefore they must be non-jewish) and these posts contain the assertion that this conflict is all Israel's fault, and hezbollah and hamas are innocent victims. You imply that these posts are so vicious and numerous that they warrant this post/apology.

>I don't understand the mindset that condemns civilian casualties in >retaliatory attacks, but fails to condemn the years of terrorism that >preceded it.

Me neither! How many posts can you show that contain this mindset?

>Please remember that virtually the entire Democratic leadership in this >country stands with you, it is easy to forget that when you spend a >couple of hours reading some of the posts written here in the last few >days.

Most of the dem leadership, sadly, are cowards.

>Most of all, let's hope for peace. Both the Israelis and their >surrounding neighbors deserve it after all these years of bloodshed.

There, you've said something good.

[PCIntern]

29. Good Post...

Boy, I hate to flog a dead horse...but isn't it ironic that I haven't seen a single post which calls the Hezbollah use of rockets filled with ball bearings, landing in civilian areas, a war crime or an atrocity. There is no even-handedness here, from people who proclaim to be liberals and progressives. What I see is a predisposition to strike out at Israel, and given any excuse, will do so with complete abandon.

So go ahead, abandon the Judeo-Christian (sic) ideals and embrace the terrorism because you feel that by doing so, you are the anti-Bush, anti-PNACers. Reject the notion that from day 1, Israel has been under attack from Arab states. That the only reason that Egypt and Jordan agreed to a peace with Israel is that they receive tremendous foreign aid...a bribe, as it were.

I'll leave you with one last thought at which many Jews will read and nod - and that is that Yasir Arafat, a terrorist par excellence, received the Nobel Peace Prize because he killed Jews....and that's just OK with the rest of the world. And please, please, don't tell me that he renounced terrorism, or that Begin was a terrorist, or that Rabin was also a terrorist and he received the Nobel Prize. This man Arafat not only stole the Palestinian people blind, arranged the deaths of thousands of people, was run out of town on a rail in most every Arab community in which he ever resided. He was a first-class scum and killed many Jews. And that's just all right with everyone.

[Taxloss]

37. Hezbollah doesn't fire rockets, it "lets off firecrackers" according to

some DUers. Or "stink bombs". You know, ineffectual, silly little things. Next they'll be calling Hezbollah landmines "whoopee cushions".

[Malikshah]

106. Please provide links and quotes regarding this

Otherwise, this li'l thread will be exposed as pure and unadulterated hogwash.

Strawmen are easily swept away by the winds of reason.

[sandnsea]

108. Just some little ficus holes

It's a plant potting strategy actually, how generous of Hizbollah.

Yes, people have said stuff like this and the firecracker remark, an awful lot of people. It's been astounding.

[Taxloss]

110. Happily:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1738662&mesg_id=1738662

As you can see from this post, a missile and ground attack that led to eight dead Israeli soldiers and two missing soldiers is described simply as "two people going missing in mysterious circumstances", and later in the same post Hezbollah attacks are dismissed as "firecrackers or stink bombs".

[Malikshah]

113. Hmmm. That's really not good enough.

1) Taken out of context completely.

2) Two missing people = two missing soldiers Not too sure-- as there were others who disappeared mysteriously *before* the soldiers were captured

3) From the OP-- I expected much more

[LiberalPartisan]

38. Thank you for your thoughts

I agree with you completely.

[CuteNFuzzy]

40. Hizballah's use of rockets against civilians

is a war crime and an atrocity.

[northzax]

54. atrocity yes, war crime no

war crimes are, by definition limited to actions of states and their actors. Hezbollah cannot commit a war crime because it is not a state. what it can commit is terrorism. which is does.

yes, it's an unfair standard, but that's what you get for being a state, increased responsiblity and increased power.

[DireStrike]

62. There are posts critical of hezbollah.

Posts criticizing hezbollah:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1729656&mesg_id=1729656
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1729702&mesg_id=1729702
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1720674&mesg_id=1720674
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1734233
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1729281&mesg_id=1729281
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1739307
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1723863&mesg_id=1723863

another post, criticizing both sides:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1715309&mesg_id=1715309

People don't criticize hezbollah because it doesn't need to be done. It's a terrorist group! People criticize Israel because it is criticized nowhere else. DUers like to defend the underdog because nobody else will do it. Surprisingly, media coverage seems actually in favor of lebanon. But the dog already has the bone in its mouth. Israel is doing things that are wrong. So is everybody else.

Sometimes people conflate israel and pnac/bush. Not necessarily because they are on the same side, but because they are using the same faulty reasoning. There are a handful of prolific posting bomb throwers who throw caution to the wind and say stupid things. On both sides.

[NoSheep]

117. I would like to suggest, that SOME of those who point out the crimes of

one side, while not mentioning the other side, do NOT do so because they are "taking sides". I feel it is because American foreign policy is SO HEAVILY weighted toward ONE side only.

Now I don't want to flog a dead horse either, but I think it is important, under the circumstances, for all of us to acknowledge the double standard that has been the rule of American foreign policy since WWII.

Why is one man with a suicide bomb considered a terrorist and the other with an Apache helicopter considered as "having the right to defend himself"?

Now I'm not saying the man is a prince, but why is Saddam Hussein considered an evil man for ordering the deaths of his own people and Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Rice considered righteous in their actions? Are they not ordering the deaths of their own people as well as thousands of other innocents?
Why does our country get to ignore the standards set out by the Geneva Conventions and our enemies' country condemned for the same acts?

There is plenty of discussion...plenty of precedent, plenty of propaganda to condemn those who have no financial and therefore, political power in that region.

Respectfully, I'd like to say: It is time we speak the truth out loud about BOTH sides.

[theHandpuppet]

31. My mother's family barely escaped on a refugee boat

Yes, they were German Jews.

And no, I do NOT support the carnage being waged in this conflict, nor as you said fully support Israel. How presumptuous of you to think that anyone with Jewish ancestry harbors some blind allegiance to Israel and that anyone opposed to the bombing of Lebanon is a Hezbollah sympathizer. I do not condone war, period -- not in Iraq, not in Lebanon.

I fully support PEACE.

[CuteNFuzzy]

35. you are brave

thank you for standing for peace

[PCIntern]

44. that's all very nice...and I'm with you

go tell the terroists all over the world. tell the revolutionaries and the anarchists and the bomb throwers.

they'll laugh in your fact right before they blow you away. with whom do you think you're dealing? These people are KILLERS.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

52. we do. The biggest damned terra-ist in the world is

Bush, Inc.
period.

[theHandpuppet]

55. Dead is dead, no matter who is doing the killing

No matter who, no matter where, no matter why.

[ruggerson]

49. The comments that I refer to

are the outrageously bigoted ones. And, no, I'm not going to compile them for you, if you haven't seen them, count yourself lucky.

[theHandpuppet]

66. I've seen some bigoted comments from both sides...

... including some that were thankfully deleted. Fortunately, those are few and far between and I can only feel sorry for folks who harbor that much hatred. But your generalizations and assumptions are troublesome to me.

Frankly, I was much more insulted by a thread berating "stupid hillbillies" in its subject line when no one besides myself found that offensive. (Yes, believe it or not, there are Jewish hillbillies, hillbillies with college degrees and anti-war hillbillies who consider themselves liberal democrats!)

The lesson here, ruggerson, is DON'T ASSUME, okay? It is generalizations that only help to foster the divisions which lead to violent conflict.

PEACE!

[Xeric]

34. This Jewish DU'er does NOT support war crimes

By Israel or anyone else.
The atrocities being comitted in Lebanon against innocent people are war crimes.
The right wing government of Israel's hubris, like our own government's is appalling.

[theHandpuppet]

42. Thank you, Xeric

:thumbsup:

[K8-EEE]

114. As If All Jewish DUers Are Down With This!

I know lots of anti-war Jews who feel the same way -- and hate the presumption of "group think."

[rucky]

41. No need to apologize to me.

Some of us Jews know about Operation Clean Break, and choose not to be stooges for the neocon agenda.

If we really want peace, we have to denounce all the violence, and fuck taking sides.

[liberalpragmatist]

47. So we can't oppose Israel's actions?

There have been a few posts defending Hezbollah and Hamas, but the overwhelming majority aren't condoning Hezbollah's attacks, they simply don't think that Israel's actions are appropriate for dealing with the situation.

And just because Hezbollah started this doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility. Israel dramatically escalated the conflict in what I believe was a (stupid) miscalculation that a few days of heavy bombing could destroy Hezbollah. This is bad for Israel, bad for Lebanon, bad for the United States and only good for Hezbollah and Iran.

And criticism of Israel = insulting Jews? Last time I checked Israel's government is responsible for their own actions. How should criticizing the Israeli government offend Jewish DU'ers? Reasonable Jewish DU'ers can fully support Israel in this but criticism of Israeli actions isn't (except in a few despicable cases) an affront to Jews.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

59. did H'zbullah start it though? Really?

what about the targetted assassinations for the past year? what about the Israeli provocations and their killing of little girls and boys for the past year?
it is easy for the MSM to claim an artificial date and event and claim that they started it. But it is a lie. The reality is so much more complex, more deadly and more horrific.

[JerseygirlCT]

104. That's not how I read the OP at all.

There has been far more than criticism of Israel going on here.

I've got plenty of criticism for Israel, too -- I agree with your second paragraph.

But there have been some pretty extreme posts here -- the posts defending Hamas and Hezbollah while castigating Israel as the great evil. There have also been a few posts where criticism of Israel has veered into some fairly anti-Jewish territory. They usually go away quickly, thank goodness, but I've seen them -- it's frankly shocking to find that here.

We'd all do better to keep open minds and open ears here, instead of throwing insults around. And just as you can support this country while being critical of its leaders or actions, you can support Israel and its right to exist and defend itself without having that be total, unconditional support.

It seems to me that the OP was speaking to that, and to more civil discourse here.

[liberalpragmatist]

107. Perhaps you are correct

Nevertheless, the poster seemed to imply that he was apologizing to Jewish DU'ers for any criticizing or opposing Israel's current course of action. I would readily get behind a thread that sought to condemn extreme Israel-bashing (such as implying that Israel is some kind of evil tentacle of BushCo), and you're right - there has been far too much of that. But I can't seriously try to "console" Jewish DU'ers by saying that the entire Democratic leadership stands behind Israel when I find that the Democratic response to this whole thing has been woeful. I see the Democratic leadership trying to out-hawk the Republicans and even actively HARMING our Mideast policy by condemning the Iraqi PM for not supporting Israel, which is absurd if you want the Iraqi government, backed by millions of Shi'ites sympathetic to Hezbollah, not to fall.

[oasis]

56. Another well intentioned "olive branch" thread gets peppered with the

"here's my 2 cents" brigade. As if they don't have enough Isreal/Lebanon threads in which to vent.

:-(

[CuteNFuzzy]

58. "I have been disgusted and appalled by some of the comments here"

is extending the olive branch?

[Taxloss]

61. You yourself condemned one such post earlier today.

We agreed then it was repellent, and it got 5 recs. There have been others.

[CuteNFuzzy]

65. that's beside the point

The point is that I question if the O.P. here was really extending an olive branch

[oasis]

69. The OP was addressing Jewish DUers in a sincere apology. Why

would anyone want to turn it into just another other flame war?

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. Because they cannot STAND IT when someone supports Israel.

It's that simple.

[CuteNFuzzy]

77. Wrong

Personally, I am simply against bombing civilians and burning children's faces with white phosphorous chemicals.

It's that simple.

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. Oh really? What about the Hezbollah rockets packed with ball bearings?

Does that bother you? What about the 15 year old Israeli killed in her home by Hezbollah? Does that bother you too?:eyes:

Israel didn't start this shit. Hezbollah is responsible for this escalation. The blood of EVERY dead citizen is on HEZBOLLAH'S hands. They wanted this war, they got it.

[CuteNFuzzy]

98. totally against that too

The blood of dead civilians is on their killers

(sorry to inform you, it's not just Hizballah doing the killing)

[acmejack]

100. That is really quite something to say.

You speak so casually of war, you should be ashamed of yourself! "They wanted this war, they got it. ou little cheerleader. All you people disgust me. I will leave this place now.

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. GOOD. Buh bye! Hezbollah supporters disgust me.

I guess we're even.:eyes:

[oasis]

80. I have a few

bones to pick with Israeli policy myself, but out of decency and respect, I choose not to do it on this kind of thread. I'm saddened that the OP's good intentions got turned around on him.

It seems to be that nothing is out of bounds to some in our community.:shrug:

[in_cog_ni_to]

84. Israel isn't perfect, but they do not

deserve the crap thrown out by DUers the last 15 days. It's so damn one-sided here.

[in_cog_ni_to]

73. No shit. Gotta spread that hatred.

:eyes:

[northzax]

74. it's not an olive branch

since frankly, it is a thinly veiled accusation of anti-semitism against those who opposed the invasion and occupation of a state.

and let's be perfectly clear. It is just as possible to criticise Israel, a state, without criticizing Judaism as it is possible to criticise Saudi Arabia without criticising Islam, or Italy without criticising Catholicism, or Germany without criticisng Lutheranism, or England without Anglicansim. When I criticise Israel, I talk about the actions of a state, not a religion. In fact, the only state I can think of in which criticism of the state is directly equivalent to criticism of a religion is the Vatican City, a theocracy that is also the heart of a religion. Israel is not a theocracy, it is a democracy. the Prime Minister of Israel is not the equivalent of the Pope, he does not speak for, or act on behalf of, global Judaism. He acts and speaks on behalf of the citizens of Israel alone (who yes, happen to be Jewish)

so that's why I respond, because the original post was misguided and offensive in it's simplicity. this military action is not being done on behalf of, or in the name of, Judaism, it is being done in the name of, and behalf of Israel. learn the difference, cause there is one, and then come back and complain.

[oasis]

88. I'm unable to read into

this apology anything other than good intentions on the part of the OP.

[northzax]

90. road to Hell, my friend, road to Hell

something about it being paved with some sort of intentions?

to imply that criticism of Israel is critcism of Judaism is to imply that Israel is Judaism, and if that is the case, then attacks on Jews anywhere are justifiable as attacks on Israel in wartime, which is bullshit.

[oasis]

97. I agree but

the OP doesn't say, or imply that in his apology.

[northzax]

103. yes, actually, he/she does

by perpetuating the idea that Isreal=Judaism and vice versa. Certainly unconciously, and I have not, as you will notice, called him/her out on this post.

[moobu2]

89. Well said n/t

[daydreamer]

63. How can you justify the massacre of the Lebanese people? Did Hezbollah

kill so many civilians?

[brmdp3123]

64. Well said.

I don't understand how anyone can support terrorists, period, and that's what Hesbollah is.

[LostinVA]

67. No one is supporting terrorists n/t

[brmdp3123]

76. I believe that you are, if you don't expect Israel to destroy them.

[laura888]

85. Please. I have no beef with the Lebanese.

Israel's aggressive actions are causing desparate people to possibly commit terrorist acts again in the U.S.

You and your kind are placing me in danger. Please stop it.

[ComerPerro]

68. I don't support Israel, and I have nothing to apologize for

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. ruggerson, that is the kindest thing I've read on DU in 15 days. Thank You

and I appreciate that more than you know. The posts I've seen here from DUers who I have ALWAYS liked and respected, have left me completely speechless, well, sometimes speechless. :( The hatred I have felt here has been overwhelming, depressing as hell and just so damn sad.....and TOTALLY unexpected coming from DUers. My jaw has been hanging open for 15 days.

Thank you for your kind post. I think ALL we Jewish DUers needed to hear this. :hug: I'll always remember this. Also, thank you for supporting Israel. They need all the support they can get.

[Jim Sagle]

78. Thank you so much.

[treestar]

86. Hello, not every Jewish person supports Israel

You've got to be kidding. You're equating support with Israel with bashing the Jews.

Well, no.

[Clarkie1]

87. Kicked and recommended by a "non-jew."

[meti57b]

91. Thank you, ruggerson

It was so nice of you to post that! :)

[oberliner]

92. thank you

for this post

[oberliner]

93. delete

accidentally double posted

[magellan]

96. I'll tell you what disgusts me

People who give a blank check to a government -- any government -- when it comes to defending itself against terrorism. Look around. It's a recipe for unchecked authoritarianism and increased militancy.

Please, keep on "paying it forward" for future generations to suffer. Continue apologizing as dead innocents on both sides pile up. The so-called civilized world is so good about "regrets".

But don't dare to presume to apologize for me.

Those of us who know that violence never stops violence are in the minority as always, and will be ignored as always...and the violence will continue, as always.

[K8-EEE]

115. YEP!!! This Is A Sick Situation In Which Nobody Wins

This is just stupid of Israel...I don't know how they expect to accomplish any of their goals blitzkreiging the whole country and collectively punishing that whole country for the actions of the minority...it's like if people shoot me because there's gang members down the street "hiding" around me! IT'S CRAZY!

[JerseygirlCT]

101. I agree with you -- nicely said. nt

[Cameron27]

109. I agree with you ruggerson

Nice to see this post

[oneold1-4u]

111. Walk in the history

It is hard, in modern thought, to consider what the terrorist type of islamic truly wants, but death becomes them because it holds such a great promise.
They are the only ones who are or ever can be "right" even removing others of islam that will not follow them!

[Behind the Aegis]

112. Thanks!

:yourock:

[Sparkly]

116. Good post, ruggerson.

K&R.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

120. .

[Hippo_Tron]

122. Locking

While this post may have been well intentioned, it is flamebait.