I have a question about the ME

[MissHoneychurch]

I might sound totally ignorant now or stupid or whatever. But could someone please explain to me in simple words what exactly is going on there. I know Israel is fighting the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah is hitting Isreal. And the innocent Lebanon people and Isralis are suffering.
There are so many different opinions and I am - to be honest - absolutely confused about the whole situation.
I've been following it in the news and here on the discussion board. But I still don't understand.

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Hope this helps...

Hizb'allah attacked an Israeli outpost inside Israel resulting in the death of three soldiers and the abduction of two more. It was followed by an Israeli incursion to retrieve the soldiers, and several more Israeli soldiers died. Israel started bombing possible escape routes, and then other structures. Hizb'allah started bombing Israeli cities. Now, the Israeli army has embarked on a ground incursion. Attacks on Lebanon and Israel are still occurring.

Hizb'allah is a terrorist organization with two branches...one is part of the Lebanese government, and not part of the militant branch. The other is the group that started this mess. However, the leader of the militant branch holes himself up in the Lebanese capital, north of where the attacks began.

[MissHoneychurch]

2. Thank you

that helps indeed to bring some light into the situation.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. You are welcome.

Of course that is the most basic...it is infinitely more complicated than what I presented. :)

[MissHoneychurch]

5. Of course it is

it always is. And I am sure it will be only in the future that the people find out what exactly was going on.

But it helps me to have an idea.

How are you doing anyway? We haven't talked in a while.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. I am doing well...

...enjoying my new home in New Orleans. I hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

As for the ME stuff, you did the one thing I wish others would do, ask questions before jumping in the fray.

:hi:

[MissHoneychurch]

8. Everything is fine here

I will be in the U.S. in September for 3 weeks. Looking forward to that (except going through immigration)

I can't jump into something I don't understand. And in this war you don't have the good and the bad. I felt bad when I asked the question because I don't want to sound ignorant as to what is going on after it is going on already for a couple of weeks. But sometimes the easiest questions are the hardest ones to answer.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Always best to ask...

The stupidest question is the one unasked!

If you head to New Orleans during your stint back in the States...let me know! There is all kinds of fun a deviltry to be had here! :evilgrin:

[MissHoneychurch]

11. Unfortunately not near NO

will be on the East Cost between NYC and Tallahassee meeting DUers.

Even though I would love to see NO again. Another time.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Well...if plans change...and sometimes they do...

...let me know!

[hfojvt]

22. that should not be so much help

"Hizb'allah attacked an Israeli outpost inside Israel resulting in the death of three soldiers and the abduction of two more."

There were, of course, many events going back before that - back, back, back. Who can tell where it all began. I have heard that Hezbollah began as a response to the Israeli occupation of Lebanon in the 1980s and that occupation was a response to attacks coming from southern Lebanon and those attacks were a response to Israeli occupation and settling on disputed lands. But for some, all of Israel is disputed land ...

"It was followed by an Israeli incursion to retrieve the soldiers, and several more Israeli soldiers died. Israel started bombing possible escape routes, and then other structures. Hizb'allah started bombing Israeli cities. Now, the Israeli army has embarked on a ground incursion. Attacks on Lebanon and Israel are still occurring."

What is left out is that the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) is goliath and Hezbollah is like a bee. There is no comparison between the two.

"Hizb'allah is a terrorist organization with two branches...one is part of the Lebanese government, and not part of the militant branch."

Again with the labels. What is a terrorist organisation? Hezbollah kills 30, the IDF kills 300. Why are the little guys the terrorists? Because they use guerilla tactics because they do not have the strength to face the IDF in open battle?

"The other is the group that started this mess. However, the leader of the militant branch holes himself up in the Lebanese capital, north of where the attacks began."

Again, it is not fair to say that one group started it, although if there was one group, the beginning of the end of the cease-fire started when Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. Israel and the US decided to punish the Palestinians for electing a "terrorist" organization to run their country.

But I am sure we can go around and around on this. However, I have no dog in the fight.

[MissHoneychurch]

27. He tried to explain it in short words

as I asked to. BtA admits himself that there is more to it than what he wrote. Don't be mad at him for trying to answer my question.

[Swamp Rat]

35. .

.

[burythehatchet]

34. You should be fully educated on the situation

by reading Behind the Aegis' posts.

[lectrobyte]

29. Uh, the abduction of two soldiers was "payback" for the doctor and his

brother the Israelis had grabbed in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5112846.stm

[MissHoneychurch]

30. So it is a circle

no one is able to break out from

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth

[lectrobyte]

31. Just saying that there's more to it than two

soldiers getting kidnapped, as the post I was replying to had indicated.

[MissHoneychurch]

37. Of course there is more to it

In the ME I believe the hatred will never end if the parties involved aren't willing to break that devil's circle.

[lectrobyte]

38. I agree with you on that.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Uh no....

You are "thinking" of Gaza, NOT Northern Israel. Different solider.

[Robbien]

4. It is very similar to the US fighting the Taliban by bombing Iraq/Afghanis

Both the US/Israel are using military force to fight a group of militants but the real victims are the countries in which the group of militants happen to be at the moment.

Of course there are underlying other reasons, but basically that it is.

[MissHoneychurch]

6. I understood the US fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan

as they were surpressing the people there. Iraq ... well we know that it isn't about the Taliban and/or Al-Quaida.

And the people in the countries are always victims, no matter who is fighting who where.

[Robbien]

10. But bombing Afghanistan did nothing to stop the Taliban

They are still there as strong if not stronger then ever and still oppressing the people. The bombing did nothing to stop anything except destroy civilian lives and livihoods. The same will happen in Lebanon.

[MissHoneychurch]

12. At lest the cause was reasonable

There still has to be done a lot in Afghanistan. Of course the Taliban aren't happy that they had to give up the power. But I would say that the people are relieved to be not under their pressure anymore. Of course not in all areas of Afghanistan. I know there are counties where the Taliban are still strong.

[Robbien]

15. Excuse me, the people are not happy

The bombs did nothing to stop the Taliban. The Taliban oppressed the people before the bombs, during the bombing, after the bombing and the Taliban continue to oppress the people today.

All areas of Afghanistan are ruled by the Taliban before the bombing, during the bombing and after the bombing. The only exception being the capital.

The Taliban is as strong if not stronger than when the first bomb dropped. Bombing a group of militants does nothing to stop the militants, it just hurts the citizens who live in the country where the militants are.

[MissHoneychurch]

16. So what do you suggest

leave the country and let the Taliban oppress the Afghans even more?

[Robbien]

17. There are many ways to go after a group of militants

Bombing is never one of them.

Covert military activities are usually the best, and covert activities do not usually harm citizens.

[CuteNFuzzy]

18. We should admit the real reason why we went after the Taliban

They wouldn't agree to the pipeline deal that U.S. oil executives had been after.

Oil barons court Taliban in Texas


(they never ultimately signed)

THE Taliban, Afghanistan's Islamic fundamentalist army, is about to sign a £2 billion contract with an American oil company to build a pipeline across the war-torn country.

The Islamic warriors appear to have been persuaded to close the deal, not through delicate negotiation but by old-fashioned Texan hospitality. Last week Unocal, the Houston-based company bidding to build the 876-mile pipeline from Turkmenistan to Pakistan, invited the Taliban to visit them in Texas. Dressed in traditional salwar khameez, Afghan waistcoats and loose, black turbans, the high-ranking delegation was given VIP treatment during the four-day stay.

The Taliban ministers and their advisers stayed in a five-star hotel and were chauffeured in a company minibus. Their only requests were to visit Houston's zoo, the Nasa space centre and Omaha's Super Target discount store to buy stockings, toothpaste, combs and soap. The Taliban, which controls two-thirds of Afghanistan and is still fighting for the last third, was also given an insight into how the other half lives.

[CJCRANE]

24. Taliban grew out of the Mujahideen

which were partially funded by Bush I (former PM of Pakistan Bhenazir Bhutto warned him that he was creating a "Frankenstein monster"). It's the usual Bushco tactic of creating your own enemies. Keeps the war machine rolling.

[MissHoneychurch]

28. From what I know

those are tactics that bite you in your ass one day. Wasn't Bin Laden funded by the American government during the Afghanistan war in the 80s against the Russians? Wasn't Saddam Hussein supported by the Americans in the war against Iran? When do they learn from those mistakes?

[CJCRANE]

32. Yes

bin Laden was in the Mujahideen too.

The trouble is that there are two Americas. There's the Bushco faction which does secret deals with terrorists and rogue nations behind the scenes (e.g. Iran/Contra etc) for their own benefit and then there's the rank and file bureaucrats and good politicians (mostly Democrats) who do their best to protect America.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. for a different perspective -- this is from one Israeli scholar

Professor Tanya Reinhart of Tel Aviv University

link to article: http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000547.php

"On Wednesday, July 12, a Hezbollah unit attacked two armored Jeeps of the Israeli army, patrolling along Israel's border with Lebanon. Three Israeli soldiers were killed in the attack and two were taken hostage. In a news conference held in Beirut a couple of hours later, Hezbollah's leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah explained that their aim was to reach a prisoner exchange, where in return for the two captured Israeli soldiers, Israel would return three Lebanese prisoners it had refused to release in a previous prisoner exchange. Nasrallah declared that "he did not want to drag the region into war", but added that "our current restraint is not due to weakness... if they choose to confront us, they must be prepared for surprises." (1)

The Israeli government, however, did not give a single moment for diplomacy, negotiations, or even cool reflection over the situation. In a cabinet meeting that same day, it authorized a massive offensive on Lebanon. As Ha'aretz reported, "In a sharp departure from Israel's response to previous Hezbollah attacks, the cabinet session unanimously agreed that the Lebanese government should be held responsible for yesterday's events." Olmert declared: "This morning's events are not a terror attack, but the act of a sovereign state that attacked Israel for no reason and without provocation." He added that "the Lebanese government, of which Hezbollah is a part, is trying to undermine regional stability. Lebanon is responsible, and Lebanon will bear the consequences of its actions." (2)

At the cabinet meeting, "the IDF recommended various operations aimed at the Lebanese government and strategic targets in Lebanon," as well as a comprehensive attack on southern Lebanon (where Hezbollah's batteries of rockets are concentrated). The government immediately approved both recommendations. The spirit of the cabinet's decision was succinctly summarized by Defense Minister Amir Perertz who said: "We're skipping the stage of threats and going straight to action." (3)

At 21.50 that same day, Ha'aretz internet edition reported that by that time Israel had already bombarded bridges in central Lebanon and attacked "Hezbollah's posts" in southern Lebanon. (4) Amnesty International's press release of the next day (13 July 2006) stated that in these attacks "some 40 Lebanese civilians have reportedly been killed... Among the Lebanese victims were a family of ten, including eight children, who were killed in Dweir village, near Nabatiyeh, and a family of seven, including a seven-month-old baby, who were killed in Baflay village near Tyre. More than 60 other civilians were injured in these or other attacks."

It was at that point, early on Wednesday night, following the first Israeli attack, that Hezbollah started its rocket attack on the north of Israel. Later the same night (before the dawn of Thursday), Israel launched its first attack on Beirut, when Israeli warplanes bombed Beirut's international airport and killed at least 27 Lebanese civilians in a series of raids. In response, Hezbollah's rocket attacks intensified on Thursday, when "more than 100 Katyusha rockets were fired into Israel from Lebanon in the largest attack of its sort since the start of the Lebanon War in 1982". Two Israeli civilians were killed in this attack, and 132 were taken to the hospital. (5) When Israel started destroying the Shiite quarters of Beirut the following day, including a failed attempt on Nasrallah's life, Hezbollah extended its rockets attacks to Haifa. "

link to full article:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000547.php

[dipsydoodle]

19. Thanks for a lucid explanation

which also goes into other aspects of the M.E. situation if you read the full article using the link.

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. you know the rest of the article is really the most important part

link:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000547.php

"The way it started, there was nothing in Hezbollah's military act, whatever one may think of it, to justify Israel's massive disproportionate response. Lebanon has had a long-standing border dispute with Israel: In 2000, when Israel, under Prime Minister Ehud Barak, withdrew from Southern Lebanon, Israel kept a small piece of land known as the Shaba farms (near Mount Dov), which it claims belonged historically to Syria and not to Lebanon, though both Syria and Lebanon deny that. The Lebanese government has frequently appealed to the U.S. and others for Israel's withdrawal also from this land, which has remained the center of friction in Southern Lebanon, in order to ease the tension in the area and to help the Lebanese internal negotiations over implementing UN resolutions. The most recent such appeal was in mid-April 2006, in a Washington meeting between Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and George Bush. (6) In the six years since Israel withdrew, there have been frequent border incidents between Hezbollah and the Israeli army, and cease-fire violations of the type committed now by Hezbollah, have occurred before, initiated by either side, and more frequently by Israel. None of the previous incidents resulted in Katyusha shelling of the north of Israel, which has enjoyed full calm since Israel's withdrawal. It was possible for Israel to handle this incident as all its predecessors, with at most a local retaliation, or a prisoner exchange, or even better, with an attempt to solve this border dispute once and for all. Instead, Israel opted for a global war. As Peretz put it: "The goal is for this incident to end with Hezbollah so badly beaten that not a man in it does not regret having launched this incident ." (7)

"The Israeli government knew right from the start that launching its offensive would expose the north of Israel to heavy Katyusha rockets attacks. This was openly discussed at this first government's meeting on Wednesday: "Hezbollah is likely to respond to the Israeli attacks with massive rocket launches at Israel, and in that case, the IDF might move ground forces into Lebanon". (8) One cannot avoid the conclusion that for the Israeli army and government, endangering the lives of residents of northern Israel was a price worth paying in order to justify the planned ground offensive. They started preparing Israelis on that same Wednesday for what may be ahead: "'We may be facing a completely different reality, in which hundreds of thousands of Israelis will, for a short time, find themselves in danger from Hezbollah's rockets', said a senior defense official. 'These include residents of the center of the country.'" (9) For the Israeli military leadership, not only the Lebanese and the Palestinians, but also the Israelis are just pawns in some big military vision.

The speed at which everything happened (along with many other pieces of information) indicates that Israel has been waiting for a long time for 'the international conditions to ripen' for the massive war on Lebanon it has been planning. In fact, one does not need to speculate on this, since right from the start, Israeli and U.S. official sources have been pretty open in this regard. As a Senior Israeli official explained to the Washington Post on July 16, "Hezbollah's cross-border raid has provided a 'unique moment' with a 'convergence of interests'." (10) The paper goes on to explain what this convergence of interests is:"

full article:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000547.php

[cali]

21. Good, clear

well written article, blessedly free of a lot of the inflamatory language too often employed.

[EST]

20. Your confusion is understandable and normal.

Any cut and dried explanation will necessarily be limited--there are no first principles in this latest dustup, just more of the same.

Most explanations will start with the abduction of a couple of Israeli soldiers. (Had they been mere civilians, the resultant outrage would have been more muted)
Those explanations will omit the kidnapping of Lebanese/hizB'Allah personnel by Israelis a week or so prior to this, which was brought on by a "bring 'em to justice" attitude engendered by a previous incursion by hizB'Allah activists, brought on by...ad nauseum. It's just one damn thing after another. This 'war' is merely another chapter in a conflict that is thousands of years old.

The jews were run out of Israel a couple thousand pears ago and scattered to the winds, throughout many other societies around the world, and many of them carried with them, almost as a tribal memory, a dream of the eventual return to their "rightful" kingdom in Israel.

Because they were "different," many of these people were treated with hostility where ever they lived, culminating in Hitler's "ultimate solution" to rid society of them by killing or banishing them.

They were not really wanted or welcome anywhere and, at the close of WWII, an attempt was made to repatriate them to the ME, as another "final solution." Of course, the folks who had been living in the area had their long history and rightly resented being driven off "their" land to make way for a new Israel and attempted to stop the incursion and rid themselves of the interlopers.

The project of creating this resurgence of Israel was primarily a project of the nascent UN and the United States, and it fell to them to go to bat, aided by fierce defenders of their new nation by the Israelites. This relative stalemate has continued to the present day. The Arabs and Persians don't want the jews there and have made many attempts to stop and reverse the project. The jews want to stay and, indeed, it is the majority opinion of the world that they should.

The latest butchery and cruelty, on both sides, is just more of the same, with each side trying to enact their own 'final solutions' in the glare of public encouragement, condemnation, horror, anger and enthusiasm.

It sucks, big time, and, with the perverseness of human nature, is unlikely to be amenable to solution any time soon. It has become a proxy war between other nation states and is quite likely to spark the opening of further world-wide conflict.
The little guy never stands a chance.

For my own peace of mind, I cry to ignore, as much as possible, accusations of anti-semitism. While such charges may or may not be true, they are not consequential.

[MissHoneychurch]

26. Some of what you wrote

I know and I understand the problem of Israel and the Jews.

I don't make any accusations of any kind regarding all parties involved. I just try to understand why there is suddenly a war which seemed of having come out of the blue (which it hasn't of course). The whole Isreal topic is very difficult and doesn't seem to end sooner or later. All parties have to make compromises and it doesn't seem like any is ready to do that.

[cali]

40. Here's my advice for what it's worth

read widely from all points of view, and maybe start with a brief overview from wikipedia.

[SoCalDem]

23. A few links with some history.. Most people learned zilch in school

about this whole area..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1727200&mesg_id=1727200

and then in the I-P dungeon.. this one has the beginnings of the conflict..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x138658

bookmark them and digest slowly.. it's a lot to take in all at once

edit. for maps links.. these help to see the before and after

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/map_sites/hist_sites.html#mideast

[MissHoneychurch]

25. Thank you for the links

I will check them out tonight when I get home

[treestar]

36. Brave of you to ask.

When I was young, I asked a question like that and got sneered at.

It is impossible to find a basic source that will just tell it like it is. There is bias everywhere.

So much has happened, it is impossible to remember it all. So I would suggest just go back to the creation of Israel. Find out how it got created. Then at least you have the background. Otherwise, you are subject to sneering condescension or people trying to fool you.

Like the first answer to your post. Shallow, only based on today, and obviously an attempt to get you to accept the Israeli version as absolute fact.

The only way to hope to get a grip on this is to go back to the beginning.