Hey DU - There is No Such Thing As "The Jewish Position"

[MannyGoldstein]

I read a few posts on DU yesterday which made me realize that, even on the Left, some folks believe that "Jew" is somehow synonomous with "Israel", and that the "Jews" have a unified position on things. I don't think that most folks are ready to buy into The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. However, having studied Germany's descent into the Third Reich, I am getting a little worried...

There is no such thing as "the Jewish position" in politics - or even in religion. I believe that the opposite is true - instead of "three Jews, one opinion" it's more like "three Jews, four opinions".

Even the Jewish religion emphasizes debate, discussion, and the right to hold one's own opinion. Most of us know how important the Old Testament (Bible) is to religious Jews. But many don't know that another book, the Talmud, has perhaps even more weight in Judaism. The first part of the Talmud contains the Law. The second part contains commentary by Talmudic scholars attempting to clarify these laws, as a dialog. The experts in the Talmud often don't agree with one another. This written record of disagreement is typically cherished among Jews - not stifled. As a child, I attended an Orthodox temple. We were encouraged to question the Law and the teachers, rather than to march in lockstep.

There's a lot of emotion over the Middle East right now. It's OK to disagree - it's even good to honestly disagree, when we have open heads and open hearts - after all, that's how we learn from each other. I'd obviously prefer if people didn't hate me for my positions - but it's even worse to hate all Jews for my position. My position is mine - there is no "party line" here.

[treestar]

1. There are Jews who do not support Israel's positions on various

issues. Some of them even live in Israel.

[LeftishBrit]

9. ABSOLUTELY!

I have relatives there who are horrified by what's happening.

I certainly know lots of British Jews who don't approve of the Israeli government at all.

[jarnocan]

10. Absolutely thank you!!!! Do we all support BU**SH** ?-DUH!

the Likud and other extreme right wing Israeli parties, and the PNAC have close ties. Found a quote in Wikipedia and many more related articles of course.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/07/17…middle-east-war
Quote:

“Richard Perle, Douglas Feith and David Wurmser (all later senior officials in the Bush administration) had a plan for how to destroy Hezbollah: Invade Iraq. They wrote a report to the newly elected Likud government in Israel calling for “a clean break” with the policies of negotiating with the Palestinians and trading land for peace.
The problem could be solved “if Israel seized the strategic initiative along it northern borders by engaging Hizballah (sic), Syria, and Iran, as the principal agents of aggression in Lebanon.” The key, they said, was to “focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq —”

Their plan seems back on track.
another older aritcle that relates: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C1036571%2C00.html

[wordpix2]

33. Yes, this is all a PNAC plan that has turned the ME into a bloodbath

[darkmaestro019]

16. (timid little wave) Would it be fair to say that's exactly the same as

not all Americans supporting America's positions on various issues?

: ) Not being sarcastic--utterly sincere. I don't know why we (especially the American "left") get so fed up when we think EVERYONE blames EVERYONE here and not just one element......but the blinders seem to be on when it comes to realizing there's an ISRAELI left who are probably as head-plus-desktop as most of the world over the tragedy continuing to unfold...

Not very clear, sorry, just thinking out loud. : )

[ulysses]

2. thank you.

K&R.

[rpannier]

3. Good point

In my life I've found it easier to get Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Protestants and Mormons to agree on something (religious or otherwise) than to get Jews to agree on points of religion -- or most anything else.

[Vidar]

4. You are right, of course.

[asthmaticeog]

5. I've recommended this post for the Greatest Page.

What you've said can't be said enough, and you've stated a whole passel of important things that I consider essential about Judaism as concisely and plainly as I've ever seen them said. I thank you.

[acmejack]

6. There are many here who will conflate a negative remark about Israel

with an attack on all Jews. They do it intentionally and repeatedly. The will not allow honest discussion about the Middle East. Your well reasoned opinion will run into opposition from other pro Israelis, I fear. Hate is an awfully strong word, I hate no one, it obvious many here hate a lot of people from the intensity of their posts. It is more than a little frightening, it makes it obvious why the hope of peace in our lifetimes is just that, hope. This is among educated, "civilized" folk. Imagine among those fighting for water to live in the Congo. It makes it apparent peace in my lifetime is but a pipe dream.

Perhaps I am fortunate to have a pipe.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. There's an old saying that goes "Where there are two Jews, there

are three opinions." In some cases, you find intractable positions; in other cases, you argue like you're in Yeshiva. It depends.

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Honored to five you the fifth recommendation

And put this post on the Greatest page. You make a point that I have been trying to make for years but, as an atheist with a Christian and Wiccan background, can't seem to get across :hi:

[pooja]

11. Wonderful!!! thank you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. I just posted this quote on a similar thread.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to Heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." - Thomas Jefferson

I'm second generation Irish. Therefore, I must be Catholic and support the IRA. I gave up Catholicism at an early age. I support the struggle of the Catholic minority in N. Ireland against the bigotry and repression of the Protestant majority. I do not support blowing up pubs and blowing the kneecaps off little girls or the monsters who perpetrate such acts.

I feel no allegiance to any country, race, religion, party, philosophy, or boss, that requires me to give up my freedom of thought.

Thanks for your post.

[crim son]

13. No kidding. It's like "The American Position". Does it

represent any of us here on DU? I think not, although the Pretzel's continued fuckups are having the effect of convincing the world that we are a nation of self-centered, bloodthirsty morons.

[hootinholler]

14. Well, there's a talibornagain position...

Missionary.

Just sayin'

-Hoot

[sutz12]

15. Doesn't Israel mean "Struggle with God" or something?

My Bible study habits are non-existant, but I seem to remember this as a result of the "Jacob's Ladder" story in the Old Testament. I believe that was when the term first appears in the Bible, no?

Meanwhile, thanks for reminding us that the Jewish community is not that monolithic, and that various viewpoints exist. It is too easy to fall into stereotyping and lumping people into groups that don't really exist in the real world.

[bleedingheart]

17. shucks...I thought this would be a sex thread...

:silly:

[Bluebear]

18. Locking: No sex threads

[The Witch]

20. BWAHAHAA

:spray: It took me a minute, but then... :spray:

[The Witch]

19. For me, it's one Jew, three opinions :) THANKS FOR SAYING THIS

This was really important.

[QuestionAll...]

26. how about 3 neocons, one opinion.... war! nt

[The Witch]

31. Mahah and Welcome to DU!

:hi: :hi:

[QuestionAll...]

32. thanks for the welcome. sweet. ;)

[ulysses]

21. get back up there.

:kick:

[blonndee]

22. Kick! nt

[AnOhioan]

23. Thank you for posting

While I condemn the actions of the Israeli government, much as I condemn the US government, I fully realize that Olmert no more speaks for all Israelis than Bush speaks for all Americans.

[oberliner]

24. There is no such thing as "The Progressive Position" either

I would argue there is the same diversity of opinion on this topic within the progresive community as well.

[ulysses]

36. this should be pretty obvious at this point.

:D

[nam78_two]

25. excellent point /nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

27. a great point

[Karenina]

28. Thank you, Manny.

THAT needs to be repeated again and again and again. There is no monolith among ANY PEOPLE ('Cept mebbe the Icelanders and the Swiss ;-) ).

[H2O Man]

29. Nor a "DU Position" n/t

[sabra]

30. great post!

thank you, and welcome.

[Tom Joad]

34. Real anti-semites and groups like AIPAC et. al. believe there is

such a thing. That is where they agree. So David Duke believes that all Jews support every policy of Israel. aipac and groups like the JCRC support Israel policies, and represent themselves as the "voice of the Jewish community" when, folks like Manny would disagree. All i can say, is that I agree with Manny.

[Tom Joad]

35. Check out Jewish Voice for Peace.

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

[wellst0nev0ter]

37. I Notice A Lot Of People Concerned About Anti-semitism

infesting the pages of DU without evidence that these views are tolerated or endorsed by this website. No links, no quotes, nothing. I'm sure those posts were alerted and subsequently deleted and the posters banned as per DU rules since such commentary is patently unacceptable to this website.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. since you missed it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1738732

[wellst0nev0ter]

40. And That Sick Topic Was Locked

Such commentary is still not acceptable. I'd like to see anti-semitic posts that were allowed to remain open.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. ....

Your original post said: "I Notice A Lot Of People Concerned About Anti-semitism infesting the pages of DU without evidence that these views are tolerated or endorsed by this website. No links, no quotes, nothing. I'm sure those posts were alerted and subsequently deleted and the posters banned as per DU rules since such commentary is patently unacceptable to this website."

I gave you a prime example, and the best you can say is that it got locked?! Talk about changing the goal posts! Stick around, you're bound to see one post like that remain open and garner votes for the "Greatest Page." And why would you "...like to see anti-semitic posts that were allowed to remain open.?"

If anything that posts shows that there is a problem with anti-Semitism infesting DU. It isn't that it is tolerated or endorsed by DU, it is the mere fact that it is occuring in much larger numbers and mainly in regards to posts about Israel. I am glad they didn't "disappear" that thread because it is a PRIME example of what is happening. Just think how many anti-Semitic posts and threads have been spirited away. Just because you can't/don't/won't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there and it isn't real!

[wellst0nev0ter]

47. You're Still Complaining About A Locked Post

Yes I concede that anti-semitic posters are a problem that needs to be dealt with. But if a locked thread is the PRIME example of what is going on, then I'm pretty sure this forum isn't going to turn into a Bund rally anytime soon.

The simple fact is that I'm more likely to see posts complaining about anti-semitic posts than those anti-semitic posts themselves.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Let's review, shall we?

You said you noticed complaints about anti-Semitism, but didn't (couldn't?) see it. I pointed out one example, per your request. You then made it sound if people were complaing about anti-Semitic posts because they were allowed to stay open. No, the complaint is that we have long-time posters (a few new ones) spewing anti-Semitic rhetoric. You finally admit there is a problem! But, as expected...you giveth, then taketh away. I don't think anyone thinks that DU is about to turn into a "Bund rally," but does that mean the Jews of DU should have to tolerate anti-Semitic filth?

'The simple fact is that I'm more likely to see posts complaining about anti-semitic posts than those anti-semitic posts themselves."

The simple truth, the reason for that observation is that one type of post is legal, the other is not and will (likely) be deleted. As I have said before, just because you don't/can't/won't see it, doesn't mean it is not there!

[MannyGoldstein]

42. This is Exactly What I Have Nightmares About

I've spent a fair bit of time studying how, in just a few years, Germany went from (arguably) the most liberal and integrated society in the world to the hell of the Third Reich. My conclusion, for what it's worth, is that it could absolutely happen here and thus we must always be vigilant.

The post you linked to was tying actions that he hated, to a religion. Very scary stuff. It's what the right-wing haters do all of the time with Islam.

I hope that we can all pass through these troubled times without bad craziness.

[sandnsea]

39. I think that's understood

But I also think it's understood that for those who want to push Irsael into the sea, it is about Judasim. That's the only way I've seen Israel being equated to Jewish on DU.

[flyarm]

43. thank you..thank you very much..i just got a nasty note from a jewish

friend..because i sent her a huffington post petition for jewish people to send to Bush..and she ripped me a new one..although i did not write it, a jewish man and group did..

i am not jewish but i respect all voices.but more importantly i respect human life..and i respect being American..and i feel as though my taxes support and pay for many of Isreals military equipment ..and i feel as an American i have the right to my opinion..

i have always supported Isreal..but i also respect human life above all else...and i also believe right is right and wrong is wrong..

i never gave out my opinion, i just sent on a petition that others jews have asked Jews to sign..

well you would have thought i wrote it, and that i was the evil of all evils..

I am Irish and i will tell you..if i see the irish doing what i believe is wrong you can count on it, i will speak out about it..

but Irish is my ancestry..

i may be irish..but i am American..and i speak as an American..not as anything else!

fly

oh and P.S. i love all human beings..and i believe life is so fragile and precious..if we could only all respect each other and each others voice ..i think we could find peace..if we listen to each other..we could have a much kinder world..not perfect..but kinder..

[alittlelark]

44. I would have to agree. Hubby is Jewish...

95% of his family is liberal...some flaming, some simmering. The 5%er is the only one that supports this atrocity.

Of the 95% there are degrees of sympathy - for both sides. Some leaning towards Israel, some towards Lebanon. All see this as a lopsided 'war'.

The 1 '5%' individual has been married 6 times and sees the world in B/W. Each of his marriages was 'forever', and it was the fault of the wife when she left him (due to infidelity, drugs, rudeness....).

That 5%er could be (non-practicing)Jewish, Fundamentalist Christian, Fundamentalist Moslem..... he happens to be Jewish.

It's the mindset.

[Vinnie From Indy]

45. Thanks Manny!

Of course you are correct about the wide ranging opinions of Jews on the current situation in the ME.

[RagingInMiami]

46. In some cultures it's called the "missionary position"