Is the Israeli military over-rated?

[kentuck]

Without their weapons of mass destruction, mostly US made, how strong would they be if they had to depend on their men and women in their present military? Are they stronger than the US military? Or if they get bogged down in Lebanon, would they be "sitting ducks", much like the American military now in and around Baghdad? Are they an invincible force or are they over-rated?

[abluelady]

1. I Don't Think Anyone Is Invincible

But I think they probably get their strength from adrenalin. I've heard stories that mothers have lifted cars to rescue a child. My guess is Israel feels like that mother when her country is attacked.

[mediaman007]

2. I would suspect that they're very competent.

You hit the nail on the head though. I think that they are worried about being lured too far into Lebanon, which would leave them vulnerable. Perhaps their efforts to lure Syria and Iran into the war for the Neocons isn't working, so they have decided to limit their invasion.

[leveymg]

11. Bingo! Larger strategic objectives failed, so they'll likely pull back

after another week or two.

"War is the continuation of policy and politics by other means."

The overall objectives haven't stopped, just because the offensive appears to be bogging down. But, those strategic goals may be entirely unrealistic, and the war is already lost, even though the military battles in Lebanon (as in Iraq) were won. See, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1744415&mesg_id=1744672

[Swede]

3. Ask Jordan,Syria, and Eygpt.

Pretty much scrubbed up the sand with them a couple of times.

[aquart]

8. Good freaking lord.

They have a defensive army. They have everyone in the country prepared to defend Israel to the death. That sounds STRONG to you? A nation that doesn't know from one minute to the next if children will return alive from school, or a mother from the market? That's your idea of a country with a STRONG military?

They are sleeping in air raid shelters in the center of a principal city. THAT SOUNDS STRONG?

Unbelievable the myths that have grown up around Israel.

Understand one thing: if they put down their arms for one minute, they are dead. All of them. If you don't believe that, you don't get the situation.

[Swede]

9. I understand aquart.

I guess,I meant they have a strong conventional military. They need it.

[dsc]

10. that doesn't negate the strength of their military but actually

speaks to it. If their military is why they have been around as long as they have, and I tend to agree with that statement, it is very eloquent testimony as to how strong it really is.

[treestar]

15. I wouldn't live there, then.

If entirely true, your position proves that Israel does not really function as a safe haven.

Wasn't that the point? Yet the US or any western nation is a much safer haven.

[Dhalgren]

4. In today's world, I think most armies are pretty much the same

as far as the "fighting man" (or woman) goes. The big difference in militaries, today, is supply and leadership. The soldiers on the ground are pretty much the same regardless of nationality. Training, leadership, supply, technologies are what makes the difference. If an army is in a situation where supply and technology cannot adequately be brought to bear, then it devolves to leadership and training - that's where the "rubber meets the road", IMO...

I don't think that the IDF is any better trained than the Hezbollah - and in this particular conflict, the IDF may not be trained as well as the Hezbollah. Again, just IMO...

[Hatalles]

16. I mostly agree.

These days, I think an army is only as good as their technology and supplies.

[atreides1]

5. Maybe now, but in the past they were good

In the past they earned their reputation, especially in the raid on the Entebbe airport in Uganda.

But just like the US military, the Israelis have become dependent on high tech gadgets, and as a result they've become soft.

Also, add into the mix that Hezbollah is no longer just a loose confederation of groups with no training. They have evolved into a military force, one without tanks, planes, or artillery, and that's the only advantage that the Israelis have over them.

[Selatius]

6. Israel is stronger on defense than on offense.

Afterall, it is your home you're trying to secure. Wouldn't you fight pretty damn hard if your home and family was at stake?

On the other hand, Israel proves lacking as far as offensive war goes. They have little capacity to occupy land and hold it if it is any bigger than the West Bank or South Lebanon or the Sinai. Insufficient manpower. Large numbers of IDF personnel are needed just trying to continue the colonization/occupation of the West Bank. Occupying another's land is a very exhaustive activity.

Only European powers, Russia, China, and the US have the capacity for occupying large swaths of land and holding it for a period of time, but that doesn't mean they cannot be defeated and driven out by a homegrown "peasant army" like the Viet Cong or the Afghani Mujahadeen.

[dsc]

7. They seem to be doing fairly well to me

Any army is going to have a hard time occupying foreign lands. One usually needs a 10 to 1 superiority to hold land and Israel is hard pressed to get equality of numbers let alone that kind of superiority. Person for person they have shown themselves to be very effective.

[Sammy Pepys]

12. I'd say that they can hold their own...n/t

...

[Solo_in_MD]

13. Flawed premise

- Israel does not have US supplied WMDs
- Israel is not using WMDs


The IDF has demonstrated their superiority against larger forces repeatedly over the last 40 years. Most of their advantage is training and doctrine, not necessarily superior equipment. As far as the regional forces are concerned, nothing can stand up to the IDF. That said, they are not fighting another army in Lebanon, but a militia. Its called asymmetrical warfare for a reason. The IDF is choosing to bomb more and risk their soldiers less. An understandable decision, but it increases the perception of disproportionate force.

[kentuck]

14. Nuclear bombs are not "Weapons of Mass Destruction"??

Learn something new every day...

[Solo_in_MD]

19. I read the OP statement as claiming the WMDs are in use in Lebanon

which is not true.

Most (not necessarily the OP) seem to think the large HE bombs or DU anti-armor rounds are WMDs. They are not.

Israel is widely believed to have nuclear weapons, with several different delivery options. Those are indeed WMDs, but have never been used.

[ComerPerro]

17. Their weapons and tanks certainly not.

[sweetheart]

18. One needs to recapitulate the military as a political force

If the objective is to achieve a political end, then all forces employed, are, in abstract, military. They force on the
battlefield a political plan, through whatever means. So then, the military is charged with "defend the citizens from
terrorism", and it is unable to act in the public best interests, as it is the wrong political force amongst long term neighbors.

It creates a systemic ill-will that will rot our society for centuries to come, that is hardly politically intelligent,
stragic or wise, but a military miscommanded to achieve a civilian policing function has only the weapon of total war at its
disposal. But always, the objective of conflict is the result on the ground, and israel's commanders want a broken bereft
land to their north, a weak place that could serve as a future colony, taking the lesson from the US on keeping mexico poor
so the land can be stolen in future.

[liberaltrucker]

20. Neither

IDF could easily be defeated by the US military, or that
of any large nation, therefore, not invincible.

However, as Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc learned in 1948, 1967
and 1973, IDF if far from over rated. At the present time, IMO,
they're pulling their punches. I pray they don't have to punch
with all they have. If they do, the ME will be a swath of
radioactive glass till about 10,000 CE.

[Marr]

21. Military power in general is overrated- not just Israel's.

Our mighty (and ridiculously expensive) military is being pounded and undermined every day by a country that was starved into submission years ago. Military power is clumsy and limited.

[Greyhound]

22. Generally regarded as the best military, wo/man for wo/man, on

the planet. They have soundly defeated larger, better armed forces, time and again.

[porphyrian]

23. Their air force isn't over-rated.

And I'm pretty sure they're not tactically stupid enough to spread themselves as thin a our stupid military has.