Why it's okay to kill 350 Lebanese civilians while aiming for "terrorists"

[BurtWorm]

:sarcasm:


http://www.juancole.com/2006/07/dershowitz-and-grades-of-human-beings.html


Monday, July 24, 2006

Dershowitz and Grades of Human Beings

Alan "Torture is OK" Dershowitz is annoyed that the Israelis have been accused of killing innocent civilians. He is now arguing that there are degrees of "civilianity." He wonders how many innocent civilians killed by Israel in Lebanon would still be innocent if we could make finer distinctions.

(He should read the Lebanese newspapers and he would get the answer. One third of those killed by the Israelis are children. I'd guess they are all civilian all the time. And then there are the families, like the Canadian women, children and men blown up at Aitaroun. I suppose they are really civilians. Etc. )

But I don't know why Dershowitz stops there. Let me reformulate his argument for him. Shouldn't we recognize degrees of humanness? After all, isn't that the real problem? That the enemy is considered a full human being in the law of war? That horrible Supreme Court judgment that Hamdan had to be given a trial of some sort was based on the misunderstanding that he is a human being.

Israeli officials have already showed us how Arabs can be reclassified away from a full "human" category that they clearly, in the view of the Kadima government, do not deserve.

For instance, Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Dan Gillerman angrily denounced Kofi Annan for neglecting this key fact. The Guardian reports, ' Mr Gillerman said "something very important was missing" from Mr Annan's speech: any mention of terrorism. Hizbullah were "ruthless indiscriminate animals", he told reporters. '

So you see, one reason that you can just bomb the hell out of the Lebanese in general is that they aren't human beings at all. They are "animals." You might quibble that Gillerman is only referring to members of the Hizbullah party as animals, not all Lebanese. But most Shiite Lebanese, some 45 percent of the population, support Hizbullah. And the Lebanese government, made up of Christians, Sunnis and Druze, let Hizbullah into the Lebanese government and gave it cabinet posts. So probably those who tolerate Hizbullah are at most half-human. This has yet to be worked out. It might be possible to declare them .66 animal. Or maybe they are just all animals. They speak Arabic, after all, right Mr. Gillerman?

[valerief]

1. It's okay cuz they're not embryonic stem cells. n/t

[mom cat]

14. The children being killed are not "snowflake babies", so it is ok!

NOT!

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[indepat]

3. Israel is the good guys who wears the white hats and only the bad guys who

wear the black hats commit terrorist acts or do other despicable things.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim__]

5. Degrees of civilianity?

Go fuck yourself dershowitz

[EVDebs]

26. They're all playing the "survivor" game in the ME

only in this version not on CBS, the last one on the island really IS the "winner" so to speak.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

7. apparently, this is why it's okay

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1729252&mesg_id=1743693

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

9. yeah

although I think I have had glimpses of that before. :(

[BuyingThyme]

10. If you ever want to find them, just include

names like Richard Perle and Larry Franklin (or just AIPAC) in your posts. The neo-cons come running to defend them.

[LostinVA]

31. *sigh*

[oberliner]

11. It isn't

Why is it ok to call someone a neocon for holding a position shared by Russ Feingold and Ned Lamont?

[BuhByeChimp]

12. Good Question, apparently dissent isn't allowed.

[BurtWorm]

13. Do Feingold and Lamont think it's okay to kill so many civilians?

I kind of doubt it, but I don't know.

But I agree that throwing around the term "neocon" for all who defend Israel to any degree is not helpful.

[blonndee]

15. Not helpful, but about the equivalent

of being called a "terrorist supporter" for criticizing Israel. Not productive, and not fair, either one of them.

[BurtWorm]

16. More on line with being called anti-Semitic for criticizing Israel.

DUers don't call people terrorist supporters, in my experience, but they do occasionally call people anti-Semitic or racist. I don't think any of that is helpful to the dialogue. I try to presume a person comes to the table here in good faith, unless, like your pal and mine from yesterday, they show their hand a little. ;)

[oberliner]

18. vis-a-vis Anti-Semitism

Calling someone anti-semitic for no other reason than the fact that they are critical of Israel is entirely unfair and, indeed, offensive.

Calling out posts that are actually anti-semitic in nature is something I hope everyone agrees is important.

[blonndee]

20. I agree with that, and I have done that myself at least a couple of times.

eom

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. Does that apply to the post in question? -nt

[blonndee]

19. Really? It's been the other way around for me.

A couple of people have either outright called me a terrorist supporter or accused me of doing that; others, (for no reason whatsoever) freak out and respond with something like, "So you just want all the Israelis to die? Is that what you want?" :crazy: I haven't had anyone actually dare to call me anti-semitic. (Knock on wood.) I'd like to think that's because I'm not, but I've seen others be unfairly smeared, so that can't be it. I guess they haven't gotten around to me yet, that's all. Heh.

Oh, hey, do you know why that subthread got deleted? The last I knew, there wasn't any namecalling or insults going on. I came back to it and was surprised to find it gone.

[BurtWorm]

24. I really don't know. I was disappointed.

I think the mods are a little skittish around the subject. I just a poll moved from GD to I/P only to have it deleted because polls aren't allowed in I/P. :crazy:

[oberliner]

17. I won't touch that question.

The fact that so many civilians have died in this conflict is absolutely deplorable.

I think every progressive agrees with that.

I've already posted Feingold and Lamont's statement on the conflict.

The fact that posting positions identical to theirs leads to accusations of being called a neocon are, I agree not helpful.

But I also feel that it's important to start moving towards the discussion of ideas about how this conflict should be resolved. Those posts don't seem to be getting as much traction as the more inflammatory ones (my own included).

[BurtWorm]

23. I wish you would share some thoughts on that, here or in another thread.

It is very easy to just shake your head and give up, especially considering who is in charge of the the American side right now.

[oberliner]

30. What about Annan's strategy posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1742847

Dismayed that it didn't get any response.

[BurtWorm]

32. I just kicked it up

I can't respond to it now, but will try when I get a moment.

[oberliner]

33. thanks for the kick

I would be curious to get your thoughts!

Even with disagreement, I think there can be some common ground.

[sendero]

39. Neither of these men..

... were involved in the meister kampf "The Project for a new American Century", which should have been titled "Project for a new Israeli Century".

[samhsarah]

21. Dershowitz is filth.

If we are going to separate human beings into grades, Dershowitz would rate below the bacteria that feeds off ring around the toilet bowl.

[cali]

37. much as I deplore Dershowitz take on the

death of Lebanese civilians, I can't help but not your words describing and dehumanizing him. Nothing like a little irony to start off one's day.

[samhsarah]

38. at least you deplore his take

thank goodness for that:eyes:

[cali]

43. Ah, I see you've missed the irony

and what did you mean by saying "at least you deplore his take"? Why wouldn't I? Just because someone doesn't dehumanize people through language, doesn't mean they don't oppose them. I object to dehumaninzing any human.

[samhsarah]

46. The man's a pig.....

He's vile, vicious, and filthy. I've seen too many pictures of dead "inferior" kids the past few weeks to give a shit about whether or not my language dehumanizes him. You want to preserve Mr. Dershowitz' humanity, that is certainly your right. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who will say the things he said, especially when so many of those dead civilians are children, is not a human. He gave up his own humanity. My language didn't take it away from him.

[Lindacooks]

22. It's true. The abused child has become the abuser.

My God.

[K8-EEE]

25. Saddam Is On Trial For THE EXACT SAME THING!

He is on trial for collective punishment -- an assasination attempt on him that he avenged allegedly by taking out 150 people who lived among the assassins.

THE US DID THE SAME THING IN FALLUJAH! ISRAEL IS DOING THE SAME TO THE LEABANESE PEOPLE!!! The thing like "oh, but we don't LIKE doing it, it's "inadvertent" is just weak; they are just inadvertently blowing up people ON PURPOSE based on their GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION NEXT TO PEOPLE WHO ARE A THREAT TO ISRAEL! SICK SICK SICK and trust me....the blowback will be unbelievable and it won't all happen "over there."

Morons...

[furman]

27. I think Juan Cole blew Dershowitz's article out of proportion

I agree with some of what Cole is saying, but I think he went off the deep end in his post
when he started in with the animals and subhumans talk as if that was the point of Dershowitz's article.
I don't think it was, at least not how I read it.
Nowhere in his article were the words 'animal' or 'snake' or 'subhuman' even mentioned.
He made no claim that terrorists were any less 'human' than others.

(In fairness, I don't follow Dershowitz that much so I don't know much
about his positions on torture and the like.)

Perhaps Mr. Cole should instead focus his anger toward
the Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman for equating Hezbollah with animals.

[BurtWorm]

29. It was a riff on the implications of what Dershowitz was saying

about "civilianity" (whatever that is), based on what others who have also been trying to justify or excuse the killing of so many civilians with philosophical distinctions about how innocent they may be.

I think, in other words, it's a point well taken.

[The Magistrate]

35. It Was Not Well Taken, Sir

The position is very simple. Lebanon is reporting essentially all casualties in the north as civilians. A Hezbollah militant, not being a uniformed soldier, is in one sense a civilian, but he is certainly a combatant, and thus a proper object for military attack in the current situation. It strikes me as vanishingly unlikely there are no such militants concealed in the civilian casualty figures being bruited about; after all, in some of the the areas struck, there are enough of them that one would think a few instances would occur by mere random chance if not aim and design. It is just as certain that a great many of the people killed in the Israeli air strikes are indeed non-combatant civilians.

[w4rma]

36. Good grief. Probably 1/10th of all the "civilians" killed were Hezbollah.

That doesn't excuse killing the other 90% who aren't Hezbollah. Nor does it excuse blowing up their airports, bridges, power plants, water treatment plants, roads, schools, hospitals and UN observer facilities.

Quit trying to apologize for the BS the neo-cons leading Israel are doing. It's not ethical. It's not moral. It's not even good tactics, militarily - unless their real purpose is to use Hez as an excuse to destroy one of the only democratic nations in the middle east - not counting the fostered hatred and newly created terrorists.

[The Magistrate]

40. The Facts Are Not Known, Sir

You have no idea what is the actual identity of nine-tenths of the casualties in Lebanon. Nor, at this point in the matter, are you going to be provided accurate reports on the matter by anyone. My comments are simply pointing out a range of possibility, and one that could certainly be expected to occur in a campaign against a force of partisan irregulars, who range themselves among a non-combatant populace. It is hard to see any grounds on which you dismiss the possibility as absolutely as you seem inclined to do.

[okieinpain]

28. yeah I noticed that, so cuba should be able to shoot a few shells

at us because of the drug dealers, or some such nonsense.

[SoCalDem]

34. Some of the same people who HOWLED about Waco, and demanded

Janet Reno's head on a pike, seem to be on the other side this time :shrug:

(I think that koresh did it himself, but there was a HUGE outcry about how the FBI "killed all those innocents, when they only wanted Koresh"..)

Go figure

all depends on whose ox is being gored.

[Igel]

41. People here, concerning Iraq, have

argued for a few different kinds of people that were at the giving and receiving end of Iraqi violence.

There were soldiers; collaborators; resistance; something akin to simple criminals; and innocent civilians. Oh, and mercenaries.

Killing a collaborator may not be a good thing, but it's understandable and forgiveable. Killing a soldier might or might not be a good thing. Killing an innocent civilian is always a bad thing.

I take strong exception to the people that argue this--and they've gradually been shut up by the glorious Iraq resistance's bombing of Shi'ite bakeries and the like--but mostly I disagreed over where I draw the boundaries between the groups.

Dershowitz makes similar kinds of distinctions.

[newyorican]

44. I am wondering about the...

...instructions by the IDF to those in southern Lebanon to flee.

It's not like the indigenous people in the region don't have a previous experience of what happens when they desert their property.

[Zhade]

45. Dershowitz is a racist pig.

Cole's always good for a quick analysis. Thanks for posting this.