Any wind turbine experts kicking around in here?

[tk2kewl]

I want to know how to determine wind power feasibility for residential use. The best available wind data i could come up with is this http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/orders/C35F23DB-4EC9-ADC5-74FD-82A73081A276.PDF

the avg annual wind speed is consistently 9.4 mph at the weather station in the above document. my home is significantly closer to the coast than this weather station.

[htuttle]

1. Not a wind turbine expert, but...

...how's your local zoning regarding putting up a tall tower? That would probably be the biggest hitch in residential wind power installations.

[tk2kewl]

4. i know... i'd do it anyway

my dad is retired and became a lawyer as a hobby. we'd file an article 78 and appeal it all the way to the supreme court if needed.

[northzax]

2. single residence? probably not effective

unless you are really off the grid. Wind power isn't consistent for generation, you need something to back up when the wind ain't blowing. Second off, turbines are fairly expensive to purchase and maintain, you might want to look into all that first.

[Tesha]

3. Think "net metering" and the wind turbine may make a lot more sense! (NT)

[tk2kewl]

13. that is what i want... co-generation with wind and/or solar

[northzax]

14. as a general rule...

As a general rule, according to a friend in the industry (he sells them, so he has an incentive to make it look attractive to purchasers) unless you have wind speeds averaging 10 knots over the year and are paying 10+ cents/kwh for external electricity, you aren't going to save money on the turbine. Basically, a good turbine and retrofit for a residential system including installation will cost you 8-10 thousand dollars. Let's say 8, with $50/year in maintenance costs, averaged out over a decade. If it eliminates your electric bill entirely, which it won't, and saves you $100/month on average, it will take 6 and a half years to pay for itself. So if you have the cash, and the room, it's not that bad of an idea. If everything works out.

[iconoclastNYC]

21. Dont' forget opportunity cost (interest) on the capital for 6+ years.

I did a spreadsheet that factored in forgone interest. Meaning if you had invested that $10,000 rather then spent it on alternative energy equipment, you'd be earning interest. That is called opportunity cost.

At 10% APR, with $10,000 up front cost, no maintence costs factored in, with $100 monthly savings I calculated a payoff after 215 months...18 years! Hopefully you'd get 12 years of totally free electricty tho after that. Over 30 years it'd be a winner assuming the maintence costs are not too high.

For the first month you'd be foregoing $83 in interest and only saving $100 on energy. So your net savings is $16.66. I subtract the monthly savings from the principal and recaculate.

Maybe I'm doing my calculation wrong.

What to take away from this is, wait until costs drop on the equipment, install enough capacity to make a surplus of energy to sell back to the grid, or make enough electricty to convert your house from gas so you replace natural gas costs too.

If you just want to do it to feel good, then who cares about economics?

[tk2kewl]

24. the feel good factor is a big part of it for me

self loathing is a problem of mine, so all i can do to make me feel like i'm not just another parasite on this planet the better :P

[northzax]

27. well, I ain't that smart, see?

so I can't deal with depreciation and opportunity cost, that's why we have economists. Thanks for the numbers though. I'd be more conservative, though, take a 5% APR, to factor in fluctuations, rate hikes and taxes on the interest. Also, what does the addition of the turbine do to your property value?

[Idylle Moon Dancer]

31. rate of increase cents/kwh

do any of these calculations account for increasing cost of energy?

[BR_Parkway]

32. What about going the other way - figure in the value of Federal

and State rebates or tax credits to get the true cost of the system. Add in any green organization incentives that are available.

Then finance the wind turbine/tower cost in with the mortgage, slight increase in mortgage payment ($25 or so), but saving $100 in energy leaves a net savings of $75 a month - plus if you can itemize deductions, the mortgage interest on that wind machine is deductible, providing further savings. Also, most states have gone to a tax break or even total elimination of property taxes on the renewable equipment, while real estate appraisals are including more of the value in determining worth of the property - providing a little tax free gain in the net worth dept (or resale)

The OP could look up any rebates and incentives at http://www.dsireusa.org/ which covers both residential and business use of the property.

[terryg11]

6. some farms around here have put them up

and while I believe you are right it can't be considered a complete source of energy I think the turbines have been able to alleviate the electrical bills enough to validate using them. Also, depending on the local utilities, may be able to sell the excess generated by your turbines back to the local provider.

[tk2kewl]

7. i will definitely be looking into it

i will be on the grid and i am exploring co-generation using solar and/or wind. solar is pretty expensive too, but there are plenty of resources to help me calculate the expected output. i am having a harder time with wind data.

i really don't care much if my break even point is 10 years off. i have always wanted to live completely off the grid... but with wife and future plans for family, this may be as close as i'll get

[terryg11]

9. thought of geo thermal?

I've talked to a few contractors and they all agree that yes, it is a bit expensive up front but they pay themselves off pretty quickly, within six years or less, depending on the situation. Might be a way to help you use less grid power since the geo thermal will do the bulk of the house heating and cooling

[tk2kewl]

11. i have been looking into that as well...

wife and i are trying to build a house and i want it to be as self sustaining as possible so i am trying to touch all of the bases, wind and solar for electric and geothermal and solar for the heating.

[terryg11]

16. used to have a link to a green village

it's a town close to where I live that has quite a few houses completely off the grid. I posted it here once maybe can find it again. May not help you too much since it's a twn in southern iowa bt if I remember correctly the houses were all "modern" and very nice.

[don954]

5. just happen to have a rough estimate for a 4kw system i put together

for a client:

Item Price Quanity Total
Sun Xtender PVX4140T 2 volt 414 AH sealed deep cycle battery $149.17 24.00 $3,580.00
Whisper 500 48 Volt with EZ-Wire Controller $6,030.00 1.00 $6,030.00
Iota DLS-54.4-15: 48 volt 15 amp regulated battery charger $419.00 2.00 $838.00
Battery cables $15.00 54.00 $810.00
Delta DC Photovoltaic Surge Arrestor $4.00 39.00 $156.00
Xantrex Link 10 Battery bank monitor 48V $450.00 1.00 $450.00
BP Solar SX-170B 170 Watt Solar Panel $733.00 8.00 $5,864.00
Zomeworks UTRF-168 Tracking Mount $2,300.00 1.00 $2,300.00
incidentals $2,000.00 1.00 $2,000.00
20' Mount Pipe with drilled footing $2,000.00 1.00 $2,000.00
Indoor/Outdoor Battery Box $500.00 1.00 $500.00
Total $24,528.00
you would need to add a grid intertie inverter if you need 120 or 220V power, this is a DC system, but this gives you an idea of the costs. This system would power an average florida home.

[tk2kewl]

10. would my local wind speed provide equivalent power?

the whisper 500 is a real big boy isn't it... like 15 ft dia?

is that turbine really only 20' off the ground with a 15' dia? that could take someones head off.

could one put something together with 2 or 3 smaller turbines that would be somewhat less obtrusive?

[don954]

25. sorry, thats for a mountain top install

you would want 20' above the tallest part of your house and or trees. it has a rotor radius of 7.5 feet.

[Sammy Pepys]

8. Not feasible

You're going to need additional service to back up the wind power anyway, and you're probably going to need much more wind than 9-10 mph to generate anything worth using....10 mph average is considered the bare minimum usually. It all depends on your local costs and things like that.

It's also going to cost serious $$$....maybe as much as $15K. It usually takes a minimum of five years to recoup what you've spent on a residential turbine.

[skids]

12. Could you keep one of these within your property boundary?

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/market/business/viewstory?id=41478

[tk2kewl]

15. that's cool

i think it would drift over a neighbors property. maybe it could be tethered to 3 locations to keep it stationary?

[skids]

19. Another alternative...

...which is not quite on the market yet, but would be good if you have good surface winds, is a shrouded savonius from terra moya aqua. It's an oversized (for low speed operation) unit that only stands 18' tall, thus ducking under building codes.


(That's one of their older models, they have something new along the same lines.)

http://www.tmawind.com/

But if you're wooded in, it's not worth looking into.

[TheFarseer]

17. I've always wanted to get a wind turbine

and one of those machines that turns bio-waste into oil (unfortunately not for sale to the public yet) , hook that up and watch the dollars roll in. I've never actually looked to see if that is realistic.

[iconoclastNYC]

18. This might be better for home use

The SunBall™ rooftop solar system.



Incorporates a high efficiency (>30%) solar energy concentrator (Fresnel lens), an automatic dawn to dusk sun tracking system and solar cells.

"The company's goal is to reduce the delivered cost of rooftop generated photovoltaic (PV) kWhs to below that available from the grid. Solar PV then becomes a sensible financial and logical choice for domestic and commercial electricity users."

The Sunball uses Spectrolab 35-38% efficiency triple junction solar cells similar to those used in the Mars rovers.

Using "Max kWh Tracking"™ the the sun is continually tracked to ensure the best power generation. This is done by continuously searching the sky to obtain the maximum PV current. The internal microprocessor can also command an increasing spiral sky scan to find and lock onto the sun or brightest sky spot if the sun is obscured by clouds.

Their website shows a map of the US with cost of electricity per kW for various regions. This shows a cost per kWh of $0.072 to $0.084 in the sunniest southwestern states and $0.126 to $0.168 in the upper Midwest and northeast for four 1 m2 , 1.3 Wp SunBall's at $6000 25 year life and no rebates. (the second site listed gives the cost as $6,400 plus inverter).


http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/09/sunball_rooftop.html

[tk2kewl]

20. WOW!

Prices for the 330 W / 660 kWh 1m2 SunBall™ Solar Appliance are:
~AU$1,100 ex tax (AU$3.33 / W, AU$0.067 / kWh (no rebates))
~US$825 ex tax (US$2.50 / W, US$0.05 / kWh (no rebates)) @ 0.75 conversion rate

that comapress to about $1500-2000 for the same output as flat panels (3 110 watt panels)

Thanks for that info!

[iconoclastNYC]

22. I know right.

And that's not even with high volume mass production or any sorts of tax rebates or incentives. It's an exciting technology, and it could almost be a DIY project.

[tk2kewl]

23. a little funny looking on the roof in the burbs...

i'll put 10 of those on my roof and every once in a while come out wearing a tinfoil hat and nervously inspect them to freak out my neighbors

[skids]

26. Yeah, they do look funny.

The sunball guy's always posting on the yahoo renewable energy group, so you can get a backstory about how he brought this product out there.

A similar one, but meant for commercial flat-top buildings, is due out this year in the US, and should also be a cost-cutter:



http://www.energyinnovations.com

Note though that these systems don't perform as well as panels in areas with a lot of cloud coverage -- not a concern for sunnier areas, though. Not that you could buy one -- they'll probably be tied up with big commercial clients for a few years.

[merbex]

28. This looks perfect for public buildings like schools,libraries,

police and fire etc

With the cost of fuel many cities and towns need to look into ways to save money and become more environmentally friendly

[iconoclastNYC]

29. Just think if the powercompanies or the government

Had to loan you the money interest free to install this. Then it'd just be a matter of 10-15 years to pay back the interest free loan. Just think of the impact of 20 million homes going off the net for power. Can you say energy security?

[TheBaldyMan]

30. you can usually get a feasiblity study from a turbine company

some designs that are more efficient at lower windspeeds.

here is a link (for the UK but they may be of some help)

British Wind Energy Association