Do I expect more/better behavior from Israel than Hezbullah?

[uppityperson]

I am trying to figure out why I disapprove so strongly of how Israel has responded to Hezbullah's wrongful attacks. Beside the disproportionate number of civilians being killed in a shorter timeframe, I had the thought that I expect Israel (the administration, gvt people) to act better than Hezbullah people do.

If I look at Hezbullah as having various parts, a part that hurts Israelis/kills Israelis, a part that helps Lebanese/Palestinians, I consider them to be overall acting poorly (hurting more than helping people). Israel admin/gvt/military I have expected to act better overall. I think they should have more control over what they are doing as a group and am very disappointed in them. I think.

I am NOT saying that anyone else feels this way, just exploring this thought about myself, trying to figure this out. And I believe that all sides have acted wrongly. If this gets nasty attacking, I will ask for it to be locked as I do not want to add to nastiness, just trying to figure this out. Thank you.

So, thoughts?

[Redstone]

1. UP, you're my friend, So maybe you'lle understand when I ask this:

Does Israel, or Hezbolla, CARE about what you expect from eith or both of them?

I don't think that they do.

We can care, you and I can, but our caring doesn't change anything in the end.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

2. No, they don't know me from Eve, they don't care

I am trying to figure out why I am feeling as I do, because I believe understanding myself helps me be a better person. Root out hidden prejudices, look at the world with and open mind, use that to be able to converse with others about all this total bs crap going on and perhaps influence 1 or 2 people to vote differently which I do not know will change anything in the end.

And no, neither Israel nor Hezbullah will care whether or not we do.

[Redstone]

8. No, they don't. So we must save ourselves.

I learned this in a very hard way in 1972 in a place called An Loc.

I learned the hard way. I hope you can learn the easy way.

Good night.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

9. Night Redstone. I had friends in 'college VietNam vets

met them in '73, 2 had been in VietNam. I drove a tank down roads to set off mines. Other "killed gooks". Interesting guys, wonder what happened to them in the last 23 yrs. Have had others as friends along the way. I would not wish it on anyone.

Governments don't care for people. Governments are different than the people. Some people want to hurt others in ways that are not understandable, some are understandable, some not. I am glad you survived as best you have. Sweet dreams.

[Redstone]

11. You're my friend, and it's been a bad day for me, so I'll tell you this

(don't spread it around, OK)?

My worst memory is when I centerpunched an NVA with an M79 loaded with a Beehive round.

I hesitate to post this. Do you really want to hear it? If not, I'll delete it. But you have to let me know before the editing period expires.

Yours in lunacy tonight.

Redstone

[uppityperson]

15. If you post things, others will read them also. I am amazed at what

you all went through. War is hell, during and after, and I am always amazed at what the participants go through. Post on in lunacy if you like, just remember that others read it also. If you don't care, you are good by me.

[datasuspect]

18. you are starting from the right place

always examine your stockpile of assumptions (we all have them).

[QuestionAll...]

4. I think that question should be...

do the warmongers with the biggest military death machines care about any of us, anywhere?

[ContraBass Black]

20. If enough of us care, we can force our government to behave differently.

They might care about that.

[PCIntern]

3. I don't get it...

Hezbollah is sending missles into civilian areas of Israel loaded with ball bearings in order to slice and dice ordinary people and to strike TERROR into the hearts of men, women,and children. They have promised to make the blood of every Jew run in the streets, they will then begin on the Christians. The fundamentalist Islam sects have declared terrorist war on many segments of many societies, including those not governed by a Bush. This is a movement which must be eradicated, for being elected to office, as Mr. Netanyahu asserted today, requires not only votes, but the ability to live with and work with others in the society. Just because Hamas and Hezbollah are elected, does not mean that they are legitimate, since they advocate the violent overthrow of legitimate entities, including that in which they serve.

The only country in the region which will fight this movement is Israel. anyone else step up to the plate? What are they supposed to do, turn the other cheek, allow the deaths of the children, be murdered en masse? No, it is no longer the province of Jews to die quietly. This seems to disappoint many but so be it. After the 67 war, which was won 'cleanly' and quickly, according to the media - not entirely true of course - there were many dead civilians, Israel had this reputation for sparing the lives of its enemies whenever possible. So they've been held to a higher standard... as I've posted before, during the PAssover Seder, each participant diminishes his or her cup of wine in order to demonstrate that the deaths and sufferring of our enemies diminishes us as well. Know anyone else, pardong the expression, dumb enough, to do that? I can say that of course, but you get the idea. We admit complicity in our enemies' deaths and feel guilty.

...and that's also, parenthetically, why Democrats can't win. They give the benefit of the doubt to their enemes...and then get whumped by the media...and some DUers.

[uppityperson]

5. thank you for the well written response.

I am not disappointed that anyone does not die quietly, whether they be a country, religion, ethnic, etc group or individuals. And yes, I do know many people who feel the deaths and sufferings of our enemies diminishes us as well. Of course I do. Read much on DU, ignoring the quick kneejerk cliched responses of a vocal minority and you will find this here too.

I do not know how to eliminate enemies who wish to destroy oneself or country, do not think this is the way though.

You write the words more succinctly than I. Hezbullah is legitimate, and I hold Israel to a higher standard. That is what I am feeling I have done and trying to figure out why and what to do about it. As Redstone pointed out, neither Israel or Hezbullah know or care how I feel. But I do, and some other people do, yes I have a couple who consider my opinions seriously.

So, figuring out why, what, and what to do about it is important to me. Even though my congress people send me notes back indicating they don't know me, I continue to contact them to tell them how to represent me. Minor, but still.

[Mandate My Ass]

10. blah blah blah

Syriana is very complex, blah blah blah Israel diminishes wine, Israelis so superior to Arabs, blah blah blah, Israeliss love all children more, blah blah blah and Arab children more, blah blah, Jews blood running in the streets, blah blah blah elected doesn't equal legitimate, except in Israel. So complex you couldn't possbily understand, blahdy blah blah.

Blah Blah Blah. Yadda yadda yadda.

BTW, Have you watched SYRIANA? NO? You are Satan!!!

[Redstone]

12. So, anyone who didn't watch a MOVIE is the DEVIL.

Nice discussion technique, right there.

Redstone

[Behind the Aegis]

14. .

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[PCIntern]

16. That response vis-a-vis

the film is by far the most..no , I won't lower myself to say it. Please allow me to say that I was attempting to break through the two-digit IQ barrier by saying that there are literary and cinematic allusions TO THE PROBLEMS BEING FACED BY ALL SIDES.

This is just an embarassment to the progressive movement...

[Redstone]

13. You'll have a long row to hoe here. But I wish you well.

Redstone

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. I expected them to be a helluva lot smarter than BushCo.

Alas, the same kind of geniuses that used the sledgehammer approach in Iraq seem to inhabit the Knesset and IDF.

Did they really expect the images of flattened villages, burnt out cars, dead children, thousands of refugees and rubble, would arouse cheers and support around the world?

Like the U.S., they seem to forget that wars are not won with bomb tonnage and body counts. The murderers in Al-Queda and Hezbullah couldn't have asked for a more stupid response.

[Patchuli]

7. I think everyone's got a hot head

and I just wish there was a ceasefire. Even more so, I wish that we had true American diplomacy as we once did, and a leader I respected. Clinton would already have negotiated some cessation I bet.

[malaise]

17. Under this regime

American diplomacy is an oxymoron led by a total moron.

[PCIntern]

22. This, my friend is true...

but it does not necessarily invalidate other thigs which are occurring in the wider world.

[Patchuli]

33. Yup, but maybe these morons will remember

that if we get nuked, so do they...

Dark way to look at it I know.

[ContraBass Black]

19. I think I've complained about Israel more because I'm more surprised

By Israel, and because the US is providing direct material and rhetorical support.

[PCIntern]

21. May I ask an honest, rhetorical question?

When the Japanese Imperial Navy bombed Pearl Harbor, did we then go find a Japanese Naval Base to bomb, in order to display 'proportional' response? I don't understand why everyone is surprised. I really don't.

[ContraBass Black]

23. I'm surprised that they would be so bold in their public statements,

And punish a whole population without apparent regard to the same tactics' failure to solve the problems in Gaza.

[PCIntern]

26. Populations are punished for the actions of their leaders...

this is why the process of leader selection is so important. I'm not being condescending, I'm really not, but here we are complaining bitterly about what has occurred in FL, OH, and DC for the past 5 years because we are scared to death that our leaders will lead us down the wrong path, which they have. But look what happens when you hve a weak government which canot control a bloodthirsty fundamentalist faction. Same thing happened in Germany in the 30's. Israel as a civilized country is defending herself from a government which cannot control the Hezbollah. And I know what's coming after that remark, presuming that I'm not on everyone's ignore list, but those of us familiar with the country and the inhabitants intimately know that this is the case.

[magellan]

24. It's probably a natural tendency

...as the inhabitant of a Western country, to expect better behavior -- or shall we say, more humanitarian behavior -- from the West than from "terrorist groups". The ends justifies the means mentality from Israel IRT killing civilians to get to Hezbollah is a great disappointment as that goes. But then, they've been doing that to Palestinian civilians for years, and we've been doing/sponsoring the same in various countries for just as long...so I've decided it's more about me getting used to the fact that we aren't the benevolent, civilized people I grew up thinking we were, and that when it comes right down to it Western society's got nothing on the terrorists as far as creating chaos and fear goes.

We're just not nearly as good as they are at selling ourselves as the "good guys", if world opinion of the US is anything to judge by. We're hated and feared as much as the terrorists are...and that's one thing Bush** can't blame on al Qaeda....

[Solly Mack]

25. I applaud your courage

As another poster pointed out, challenging why we believe something or think a certain way - examining those assumptions - is how a person grows. It's how understandings are formed and differences are better understood.

[PCIntern]

27. I'm pleased that we have this particular thread and this forum...

but why is it 'courageous' to ask a legitimate question or to expound your philosophy on a message board where everyone's anonymous? Are the thought police that close to appreheding us? I see no reason why anyone can't delineate her or his sentiments here...isn't that the popint of this? Where do the posters get off who feel that any pro-Israel post needs to be shouted down with the attendant responses? Isn't that a repressive, Rethug tactic?

Reminds me of Lord of the Flies...

[Solly Mack]

28. It takes courage to challenge your own beliefs - is what I said.

A good many people never do. They just accept what they think without ever examining why they think that way. I'm not exactly sure what's so hard to understand about that.

What I DID NOT say, by any stretch of the imagination, is that voicing an opinion on an anonymous message board is brave...I said challenging your assumptions takes courage. There is a difference. A BIG one.

And what I said in NO way, by any standard of reasoning, other than fallacious - would suggest anything about a thought police, or marginalization of thought, or interpreted as an attack on a pro-Israel post that is being "shouted down"

[PCIntern]

29. Actually...

I wasn't really referring to your particular post, although I should have stated that at the outset. I'm sorry. I've been told that I have a lot of courage for posting what I post and I don't feel that way. Questioning one's own beliefs is a sign of intellectualism...decrying other people's beliefs without listening to what they have to say is ignorant.

[Solly Mack]

30. just simply posting your beliefs doesn't take courage

- well, maybe an unpopular belief would qualify, in the face of overwhelming opposition that refuses to hear another point of view.

I agree it's what everyone should do - questioning why they think or believe something...but I also think it takes courage to challenge your own assumptions. Many times, lives change, and change drastically, when a person does challenge their thinking...and to be willing to open yourself up to change is courageous.

For example...and this is just an example...not related to this thread at all

The Bushbot that finally is forced to confront what they believe and must now challenge all their assumptions...it can be a life-altering experience for them. Sure, it's one for the better...but it's still takes courage to look deep down inside yourself and ask the hard questions.

[PCIntern]

32. Yes but..

usually the Bushbot type evaluates all of this in terms of how it affected him or her self....there's little room for 'other' roientation. Only a narcissist could 'love' that guy...

[CuteNFuzzy]

31. Because we're arming Israel, not Hizballah

[Spazito]

34. For me, it is this...

Do I think Hezbollah is a "terrorist" group, based on what seems to be the current definition. The answer, for me, is yes, the military arm of Hezbollah that would fire rockets at Haifa is despicable.

Because I see the military arm of Hezbollah as a "terrorist" group, do I expect Israel to act as despicably as the military arm of Hezbollah, the answer, for me,is no.

Do I believe, currently, Israel is acting every bit as despicable as the military arm of Hezbollah, the answer, for me, is yes.