Why Haifa??

[kentuck]

Because Haifa is where the new oil pipeline will be. However, for it to be secure, those rockets that keep reaching into Haifa must be removed. That is why the Israeli troops are now on the ground in Lebanon today. The rockets are still falling on Haifa. Once the rockets stop, then Israel will seek a ceasefire, and the US will support it. Haifa must be secured. The pipeline, as written about in the Haaretz newspaper today, will be coming from Kirkuk and Mosul, thru Jordan, to Haifa. This will be a huge pipeline. It will be 42" in diameter as opposed to the old pipeline thru Syria which is only 8" in diameter. It's a done deal.

link:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=332835

[MadMaddie]

1. Interesting....there is always a political and money angle

isn't there?

[kentuck]

4. I edited the link to the story...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=332835

[bleedingheart]

2. so people are dying for corporate profits?....same old story....

[WCGreen]

3. It's not just corporate profits....

Israel needs oil that is not connected to radical Islamic regimes....

[MadMaddie]

6. Hmm...sounds like they need to partner with Brazil to get off

the "oil drug"!!!

[bleedingheart]

9. so Iraq oil is okay??? doesn't make sense it will soon be pretty radical

based on the ongoing problems there...

in fact it seems to be an issue that a lot of Iraqis might take offense too since their oil is going to be refined in a country they have been reared to despise...

[kentuck]

12. There are few problems in the north...

As soon as they partition the country, the oil will be safe.

[bleedingheart]

48. well the partition will result in the Kurds of the northern Iraq wishing

to merge with the Kurds in Turkey...and there starts another conflict...

[kentuck]

51. I don't know about that...

I don't think they really care for each other...?

[bleedingheart]

54. ah....not the case

the majority of ethnic Kurds live in Turkey if I recall...

and....they have been looking to break free of Turkey...what better than to break off of Turkey and join with the new Kurdistan...

http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/turkey_background_kurds.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey

"PKK insurgency
Main article: Kurdistan Workers Party
The Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan (PKK), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is a militant organization, dedicated to creating an independent Kurdish state in a territory (sometimes referenced as Kurdistan) that consists of parts of southeastern Turkey, northeastern Iraq, northeastern Syria and northwestern Iran. Its original ideology was based on revolutionary Marxism-Leninism and Kurdish nationalism ( it has since then dropped the Marxist-Leninist ideology ). It is an ethnic secessionist organization using force and threat of force against both civilian and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal. The organization was founded in 1973 by Abdullah Öcalan. As of 2006 the United States and the European Union consider PKK and related groups to be terrorist organizations.
"

[WCGreen]

14. They were referring, earlier in the day, about oil coming

from the Caspian sea through Turkey into the Mediterranean and ending up in Haifa ...

That's what I thought they were talking about...

Distracted...

[kentuck]

16. No, that the BTC pipeline that just opened today...

and was a slap in the face to Putin and the Russians. ergo, Putin goes to Venezuela and sells a bunch of weapons to Chavez...The G8...etc...

[barb162]

5. there are way more reasons for this than the pipeline

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Jordan has already said "no."

There is nothing in the works to re-establish the Hafia-Mosul pipeline.

[kentuck]

8. In that case, we will have to invade Syria and get Saddam's WMDs...

won't we? :shrug:

[Behind the Aegis]

24. .

:tinfoilhat:

I don't think we will be invading anyone with or without Israeli forces.

[LSK]

20. so the Neocons will just bomb Jordan into saying yes

Havnt you caught on the to Bush agenda yet?

[kentuck]

21. No, they will only bomb the neighbor that threatens Jordan...

Syria.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. I don't think so.

Jordan is still an ally. They are not interested in what is happening with Lebanon. The ONLY way they would allow it is if it really crippled Syria, whom they also despise.

[kentuck]

44. Link?

When did Jordan say no?

on edit: although they are very concerned about how the other Arab countries may think of them. They are about as pro-Western as any country in the Mid East.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Conditional...

I was mistaken. Although there is no "official" word, it is dependant on a few things, which may not be easily achieved. Also, it will depend on the others in the Arab world because many were not pleased with the Jordanian support of the US invasion of Iraq.

---snip---

According to Infrastructure Minister Yossef Paritzky, the pipeline would have to be widened to operate today, but could reduce energy prices in Israel by as much as 20 percent.

With such a deal, "Haifa could turn into another Rotterdam," Paritzky said. "Tankers from all over the world would come to take oil or make use of Haifa's top-of-the-line refineries."

One Israeli source with strong ties to Jordan says Jordan is eager to reactivate the pipeline -- provided that Israel renews peace talks with the Palestinians.

"That's a sine qua non for Jordan," the source said. "King Abdullah can not be seen as pandering to Israel, serving it cheap oil, while the Palestinian problem is forgotten."

Jordan's foreign minister, Marwan Muasher, has denied that Amman is engaged in talks with Israel over the pipeline. But he didn't reject the idea altogether, something Paritsky saw as "very positive."

---snip---

source

[KamaAina]

10. Well, lookee here...

Iraqi oil is now being transported via Turkey to a small Mediterranean port near the Syrian border. The transit fee collected by Turkey is an important source of revenue for the country. This line has been damaged by sabotage twice in recent weeks and is presently out of service.

Shall I put on my :tinfoilhat: ?

edit: be sure to spell 'well' right in a post about oil...

[kentuck]

13. You got it!

Turkey is in the next phase of the "Great Game"...

[theboss]

61. I think Turkey is about the last place where we would go to war

It's the one Islamic country that we generally don't have to worry about.

[kentuck]

64. But we can't control the Kurds that want their own country.

That is trouble in the future, I would think. Turkey is our ally....right now.

[LSK]

11. K&R - follow the money people

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!

[nealmhughes]

15. How about some more simple reason, using Occam's Razor:

Hezbollah rockets CAN hit Haifa. Haifa is an important port with lots of people who live/work there.
Tel Aviv is too far, and Jerusalem has the huge Arab population and the Haram al Sahrif as well as being out of rocket range. Ergo, the logical choice: Haifa.

[LSK]

17. why would you assume Govts act in their peoples best interests???

Do you think the Bush admin has fought the war in terror in our best interests??? Or does the current Israeli Govt also act in whats best for their pocketbooks?

:shrug:

[kentuck]

18. That is the logical choice because that is as far as the rockets reach..

But if you're going to have a pipeline in Haifa, you cannot have rockets falling all around you. The simple solution is to get rid of the rockets and the threat to the pipeline. Follow the money, as someone else suggested. That's as simple as it gets.

[TomInTib]

19. This has been known for years.

We have been lying to the Turks all along.

The bids on the pipeline were put in early 2001. That's why we needed to control Afghanistan. Mullah Omar said "No way" and we told them we would destroy Afghanistan to pull this off. This was in the Summer of 2001.

This pipeline is what it is all about.

[kentuck]

22. The Iraq War was about Israel...

and the pipeline. Bottom line.

[LSK]

23. and Halliburtan

[Behind the Aegis]

27. .

:eyes:

At least you can finally admit it. :eyes:

[TomInTib]

50. As was Afghanistan

Good to see someone gets it, kentuck.

I used to get beat up here all the time, way back when, for merely stating the obvious.

My family is neck-deep in this shit and no one would listen.

[kentuck]

52. I think at first they were thinking of a pipeline thru Afghanistan...?

When that was not proved feasible, they seemed to have lost interest in Afghanistan and moved on to Iraq, as I recall?

[TomInTib]

53. The pipeline thru Afghanistan will run to the Caspian

from the former Soviet entities ( I have had too much to drink to name the specific territories).

[treestar]

63. I'm down with that

I recall reading about that pipeline, too.

[Captain Hilts]

25. Because Muslims and Jews live together in peace there.

Can't have that!

[LSK]

29. dont they live in peace in NYC?

:shrug:

[oberliner]

30. Hezbollah has rockets that can reach NYC?

:shrug:

[LSK]

31. yeah, they are being flown over on Saddams drone planes

[treestar]

65. The Muslims in NYC do nothing to attacks Jews in NYC

I recall a program in the 70s where Catholic and Protestant kids from Northern Ireland were brought to the US to meet. They got along fine in the US.

Diversity has its upside. The good old US.

[Captain Hilts]

36. NYC is in the NFC/AL&NL East, but not the Middle East. nt

[LSK]

28. another article that never sees the light of day in the American MSM

"Israel seeks pipeline for Iraqi oil

US discusses plan to pump fuel to its regional ally and solve energy headache at a stroke

Ed Vuillamy in Washington
Sunday April 20, 2003
The Observer

Plans to build a pipeline to siphon oil from newly conquered Iraq to Israel are being discussed between Washington, Tel Aviv and potential future government figures in Baghdad.

The plan envisages the reconstruction of an old pipeline, inactive since the end of the British mandate in Palestine in 1948, when the flow from Iraq's northern oilfields to Palestine was re-directed to Syria.

Now, its resurrection would transform economic power in the region, bringing revenue to the new US-dominated Iraq, cutting out Syria and solving Israel's energy crisis at a stroke. "


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html

[kentuck]

32. And this one from a couple weeks before that...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED04Ak01.html

<snip>
An Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has reported that Israel is seriously considering restarting a strategically important oil pipeline that once transferred oil from the Iraqi city of Mosul to Israel's northern port of Haifa. Given the Israeli claim of a positive US approach to the plan, the Israeli project provides grounds for a theory that the ongoing war against Iraq is in part a joint US, British and Israeli design for reshaping the Middle East to serve their particular interests, including their oil requirements.

<snip>

Paritzky has requested an assessment of the Mosul-Haifa pipeline's current state, which ceased to operate in 1948. Presumably, the pipeline will require major repair and/or upgrading, if not an overhaul, as it has not been in use for more than half a century. However, its full operation, including the required repair work, needs the consent of Iraq, the would-be oil supplier, and Syria, a country neighboring both Iraq and Israel, through which the pipeline passes.

[treestar]

66. Exactamundo.

So much easier to make pronouncements over the Decider's simpleminded declarations.

The Arabs could sell oil to the Israelis and they'd all be rich and happy.

Who cares what land your house is on if it's a great house?

They'd all get along just fine.

[malaise]

67. Bingo

it has always been about oil and water.

[rockymountaindem]

33. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that it's close to Lebanon

and the largest city within range of the Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon? I think if Hezbollah could hit Tel Aviv they would, because they can kill more people if they hit Tel Aviv. Hezbollah is also firing at Kirat Shimonah. Why? Because that's all they can hit. I think you're overthinking this. Of course, you probably think what I'm saying is naieve. I don't mean any of this as a personal slam. Even though I don't agree with your posts all the time, I have always found them thought-provoking.

[kentuck]

34. Does it make sense to you?

To have 2 soldiers "kidnapped" and then in retaliation, bomb the hell out of Beirut and announce your intent to create a buffer zone into southern Lesbian.. :)

[rockymountaindem]

35. Lesbian?

I don't think I get the joke ;)

Anyway, I don't think Israel would launch into a convoluted scheme like this. It's extremely risky. The first point on Israel's defence plan is that it cannot afford to lose a single war. And since things don't always work out the right way, every time a war breaks out, either side can lose. Thus, I really don't believe Israel would risk this kind of conflict just for money, as it would risk losing more money (all this is very expensive for Israel) not to mention lives and international goodwill.

I really do find that the simplest answer is the best.

[kentuck]

39. That was a joke... some airhead on CNN said that earlier in a slip...

of the tongue. So why did Israel just call up 30,000 reservists? It's time for the A team to take a break and send in the subs? We will get a buffer in southern Lebanon and then call for a ceasefire. Then we will either bribe Assad of Syria to let us open up the pipeline in his country or we will simply take it. They are weaker than Saddam when we invaded Iraq. However, they will have to sell it to the weak-minded and simple-thinking Americans - we'll just say that Syria has Saddam's WMDs...the people will buy it. If not, we will use the great free press of this country to sell it to them. Israel is a growing economy. They need oil. It's all about oil. It was from the beginning and it is now. it is not about "democracy" in Iraq and it is not about the "survival" of Israel. That is all baloney we have all been fed since we were babies and we eat it all up like it was Gerbers babyfood...

[rockymountaindem]

41. While I do not doubt the pipeline is an issue for Israel, I don't think it

has a role in the goings on with Lebanon. While the Mideast region is extremely complex, it has some simple aspects. One of these simple aspects is that Israel is just trying to survive. Provoking wars, even if you *think* you can win, is a perilous prospect. I think what is happening is that a fringe terrorist group, Hezbollah, which wants to rally other Muslims to drive Israel into the sea, saw an opportunity to capture some Israeli troops and negotiate with Israel for the release of Hezbollah prisoners in Israeli detention. Then the whole fighting thing started, a component of which is Hezbollah's rocket attacks on Haifa (and all over N. Israel). If the pipeline was the only target for Hezbollah, they could aim all their rockets at Haifa. They are accurate enough for that. They aren't accurate enough to hit some of the smaller, less well-defended town at which Hezbollah is aiming. That is why so many are falling into fields.

Neither Hezbollah's nor Israel's resources are unlimited. If Hezbollah's goal is to stop a pipeline from being built to Haifa, there are easier ways to go about it. Similarly, if Israel were really just trying to kill Lebanese civilians, which many here (but not you, kentuck) claim, they could dispense with the little conventional bombs and break out the really heavy thermobaric weapons. This would save a lot on jet fuel and maintenance costs. Thus, I think things may be as they seem, even though we are conditioned to assume that things in the Mieast are always more complex than they appear.

[kentuck]

43. OK, let's try again...

The Israeli paper has a story today that the pipeline is planned to run from Mosul in Iraq, thru Jordan, to Haifa. Now if you are Israel and you are going to get a huge pipeline coming into Haifa, what is your first concern? Consider that Hezbollah has not attacked Israel with any rockets in about 5 years. There is little threat there - no matter if they say it is about Israel's survival, it is not. You have seen what they have. Old rockets from the 40's and 50's that have been modified somewhat. They are not a serious threat to Israel. But they are a threat to the new pipeline. They need to be pushed back if we are going to have our brand new shiny pipeline. We can't let them threaten it. That is what it has been about from the beginning. Operation Iraqi Liberation = O-I-L

[rockymountaindem]

46. I think the timeline undermines that theory

First there was chaos in Gaza (regardless of who anybody thinks started it)
Second, two Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese border
Following that, Israel began operations ostensibly aimed at recovering their soldiers
Fourth, Hezbollah started firing rockets
Fifth, Israel started talking about pushing the rockets out of southern Lebanon

Had the rockets been farther up on the sequence of events, then I'd say you might be right. I'm not saying you're wrong either. What you say might be possible in whole or in part. However, it just doesn't seem to me like it's the most straigtforward explanation, nor is it supported (IMHO) by how the events have unfolded. I think the rockets landing in Israel now might make the Israelis feel nervous about the pipeline, but I do not think Israel started all this because of the pipeline, although it is possibly a secondary concern.

[kentuck]

47. My memory is far from perfect..

So I cannot vouch that my timeline was perfect. However, I think the facts are too strong to ignore. We shall see in the next few weeks, I suppose. I am convinced it was about oil and pipelines all along. Israe and the US and the British are operating in their own perceived national interests. They all need the oil. Did you read about the new pipeline, the BTC, that just opened up today?

[Clark2008]

37. This is so interesting to me.

I have a Palestinian (former) sister-in-law named Haifa.

I was just considering the ironies here. No real point at all.

[savemefromdumbya]

38. It's all about pipelines, just look at Afghanistan, Croatia

[kentuck]

40. It's always been about the oil..

It's not about democracy for Iraq and it's not about survival for Israel.

[savemefromdumbya]

42. & gas pipelines too?

[LSK]

45. so why am I the only one to rec this thread??

Is this just to far out there???

Are people just having too much fun in their Israel/Lebanon flame wars to face up to the possibility that this is all just about oil and money and not terror???

Sometimes I wonder if anyone learned anything since 2001. :shrug:

[ourbluenation]

49. Haifa is the seat of the Bahai Faith - I've wondered if that had anything

to do with it to...Bahai's a persecuted in Iran to this day.

[stray cat]

56. Hezbollah is bombing Haifa because its populated

and has oil they want to blow up for maximum effect and because they can reach it with their weapons.

[kentuck]

57. Absolutely!

They are a threat to Haifa. They must be moved back. As soon as Israel moves them backward enough, they will call on their best ally, the USA, to support a ceasefire. They will have their buffer zone and the Lebanese will be busy trying to rebuild their country. Then, on to Syria...

[Swede]

58. Because they can't reach Tel Aviv. Yet.

nt

[kentuck]

59. And they understand the arms markets...

They will know if they get any new weapons. Our satelites will tell them the first time they attempt to test one.

[treestar]

60. These two countries who supposedly want Israel gone cooperate

in allowing a pipeline through their countries to bring oil into Israel?

[kentuck]

62. It would only be Syria...

They will face a tough decision. Either face attacks from the US and/or Israel or permit the oil to flow? That will be their decision to make.

[treestar]

68. Makes you wonder

Why do the Arabs want Israel gone so badly? I mean, I know this is the naive view, but just sell them the damn oil, get rich and all of them be fat and happy.

I'll never get it. Maybe being American gets you away from the attachment to "the land." It is something difficult to us to understand. Our ancestors managed to drag themselves away from the ancestral land when they had to and so we are not people inclined to get the attachment.

I mean, they all live in such a beautiful place. The climate and landscape look like California. Beautiful weather and lots of oil. Why don't they just enjoy it?

Naive, I know.

[mom cat]

69. Figures!