So why does everybody hate introverts?

[TrogL]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1218047,00.html

Among other things that have changed since the '60s is the corporate culture, which once valued literacy, numeracy, high GPAs and the ability to construct a simple sentence. No doubt there are still workplaces where such achievements are valued, but when I set out as an undercover journalist seeking a white-collar corporate job for my book Bait and Switch, I was shocked to find the emphasis entirely on such elusive qualities as "personality," "attitude" and "likability." Play down the smarts, the career coaches and self-help books advised, cull the experience and exude a "positive attitude."

In a June article on corporate personality testing, the Washington Post reported on a woman who passed the skills test for a customer-care job but wasn't hired because she failed the personality test. Those tests, including the ubiquitous Myers-Briggs test, have no scientific credibility or predictive value, as Annie Murphy Paul showed in her 2004 book, Cult of Personality. You can have one Myers-Briggs personality on Tuesday and another when you retake the test on Thursday. Their chief function, as far as I could tell when I took them, was to weed out the introverts.

I work in Information Technology. Amongst our group, the server guys are all introverts and the folks who work with the desktops (ie. users) are extroverts. This is pretty much from necessity. I spent today working alone in the server room. An extrovert doing my job would get the screaming meemies. When I worked desktop I was pretty much ready to go postal on the users.

Nevertheless, in office discussion, the introverts are constantly being dissed and insulted. In the wider world, we're treated as strange, wierd and alien. People back away from us as if we smell. Popular culture derides those who like solitary activities such as reading. Extroverts get the big bucks and the promotions.

Have we progressed so little from junior high school, where the socializing bullies rule the roost?

[CoffeeCat]

1. I'm an extrovert...

...married to an introvert.

It works well.

(I'm also an ENFJ on the Myers Briggs)

[bling bling]

47. NFJ's rock!!!

I'm an INFJ. One of my best friends is enfj. The personalities described seemed very similar, from what I recall.

[madeline_con]

2. I'm 1/2 extrovert, and if we're so well-liked, why...

do people seem to back away from me if I try to strike up a conversation somewhere?

1/2 introvert.... And how come no one will leave me the heck alone if I'm trying to read?


:shrug:

[rockymountaindem]

3. That's not an article about introverts

It's an article about how guys are a bunch of slack-jawed idiot drunks, but somehow still manage to get ahead of the women.

[TrogL]

6. True, but I'm dealing with the excerpt...

about corporations using Myers-Briggs tests (which I actually find valuable) to weed out introverts.

Here's another example. I used to teach junior high band. I'd spend my breaks organizing my music for the next class (or hiding in my office crying). The principal was frothing at the mouth furious that I wasn't down in the staff room socializing.

[WinkyDink]

21. Retired h.s. teacher here; I HEAR YA!! Ate crackers in my room to

catch some grading time.

[Kiouni]

11. it just goes to show you though

that the whole feminist movement on the discrimination of girls in schools wasn't really all that accurate if not just made up. this article reminds me of Christina Sommers "The War against Boys."
and they did find that the whole differnce in pay from women and men wasn't really true aswell, just poor media.

[etherealtruth]

52. Am I misunderstanding your post?

Are you claiming that discrimination against women and girls did/does not exist?

Are you contending that women make as much as men dollar for dollar?

[idgiehkt]

98. yeah, and that holocaust thing was SO made up by the Jews.

And the Blacks were really better off in slavery than they are now, just like Hurricane Katrina helped so many people in NOLA.

Thank goodness for AEI shills like Sommers for setting the world straight on the crap those ugly dyke feminists were trying to pull.

[Kiouni]

112. Maybe you didn't

read the article at the top of this post. I was making a comparison between the two articles because they seem to be in the same area. I only raised the issue that i did not support the studies used to show sexism. is there an inequality? yes, but this article does not support it, and so neither does the Sommers article I referenced. While there maybe an inequality it is also taken an effect on all children. And saying that my argument of questioning unproven data and comparing it to denying the holocaust is truly inappropriate. Maybe you should read the posts next time before you start to type.

[Quantess]

114. I'm somehow not seeing the connection, either.

Feeling tangential today?;)

[idgiehkt]

115. Sommers is a right wing flunky.

I'm not going to read her, obviously. AEI stands for her employer, American Enterprise Institute. Look them up at FAIR or a similar site. I read the entire article in Time, not just the excerpted piece the OP quoted, and I don't see how it relates to anything you are saying.
Instead, I see you as taking this article and trying to twist it to support your preconceived anti-feminist leanings.

What Ehrenreich was saying in her article is that the good ol' boys network is prevailing despite educational gains made by women. Men raised the bar so women couldn't reach it and when we got enough access to reach the bar they moved it or lowered it below or reach. Pretty crafty, actually, but not surprising.

This paragraph could serve as a synopsis for the entire article: "So the best preparation for that all-important personality test may well be a college career spent playing poker and doing tequila shots. An Atlanta woman I interviewed, a skilled website writer, was fired without explanation after a few weeks at a job. "I tried to fit in," she told me. "I went to lunch with the guys, but all they talked about was sports, which I know nothing about, and they all seemed to know each other from college." Poor thing, she had probably wasted her college years in the library."

[Kiouni]

122. I am not trying to

make any anti-feminist arguments. And if you were to read the article i reference in comparison with this one you would see the similarities. While Sommers maybe right wing it is of little consequence to me.
the time articles says:
Boys are less likely to go to college in the first place (only 45% of college students under 25 are male) and are less likely to graduate as well.
Ehrenreich gos on to say:
Someone, after all, is going to have to figure out how to make an economy run by superannuated slacker boys competitive again in a world filled with Chinese and Indian brainiacs.

speaking of women respectively. I was not trying to make a anti-feminist case by this i was simply stating a comparison.
While Ehrenreich says that males are less likely to got to college and have reduced themselves to drunken studying in college.
Don't you believe this is because of the short comings of our education system? That males have a lower rate of college completion, college attendance and overall education?
IN the article by summers she just discusses the discrepancies between the data used for this case, that women are fairing worse off in schools.
this is not right-wing propaganda, its peer reviewed critiques of Patricia O'Reilly and David Sadker.
I was only meaning to make a connection between Ehrenreich's lack of proof and overall statements. The comparison is that through her (Ehrenreich) observations, Summors is right.

[bloom]

120. It doesn't go to show you anything of the sort.

Christina Sommers is ridiculous - spouts right-wing crap.

And there is a pay difference - it's worse in red states than blue ones, as a rule.

Maybe this writer is clueless, also, or maybe she is just trying to talk tough. There have been articles recently about how men in college are less likely to take it seriously than women - but that doesn't mean that there still isn't a pay gap. The articles were clear that even when the men - as a rule - did not apply themselves - they were still "winning" - due to male entitlement - basically because of the preconceived notion that men are better because they are men.

[TheDebbieDee]

4. I'm an introvert, too.............

And I guess we all feel the same way, that we are "constantly being dissed and insulted...." and "treated as strange, wierd and alien...."

I know that when it comes to jobs and promotions, it seems we almost always lose out to someone who has better socialization skills but weaker technical skills.

Life just isn't fair.... (sigh)

[Warpy]

15. Yeah, but being an introvert is cheaper, so it

tends to even out. We don't have the $500 cell phone bills because we can't stand to be out of touch. We don't have the huge bar bills because we can't do without crowds and noise. We aren't seduced by cruise commercials showing bright young things with their mouths open doing organized group activities. We don't overspend at county fairs. We'd rather elope than do the whole choreographed thing with the wedding planners.

Hand us our books, our knitting, our music, our woodworking tools, or whatever solitary pursuits we favor, and we're happy. And it's cheaper.

[WinkyDink]

23. Heh. Had 8 people at my court-house wedding, 33 years and counting!

Never could abide hoopla!

[tblue37]

73. I allowed just 11. (eom)

[Mad_Dem_X]

Hear, hear!

I am proud to be introverted. I have no problem with sitting and reading in silence for long periods of time, or taking a long drive and not talking the whole time. My husband is the same way.

I think introverts are mroe comfortable in their own skin than extroverts. We enjoy our own company just as much (if not more) than the company of others. Just my opinion.

[TrogL]

40. They call it smiling

bright young things with their mouths open

Don't trust anybody smiling who is showing conflicting body language.

[Warpy]

74. They look more like they're screaming

[tridim]

66. Introverts UNITE!

Your post describes me perfectly. As soon as I find a girl who doesn't want a big wedding I'll probably ask her to marry me. :)

Honestly I think extroverts think we're stuck up because we don't flap our gums 16 hours a day.

[Posteritatis]

68. I notice introversion's treated as a problem

A flaw to be fixed and addressed by converting someone into an extrovert.

Now, I'm generally skeptical of the idea of whether or not everything "different" is being medicalized lately by turning into a "disorder." That is to say, I don't believe that's generally the case, 'cause sometimes something actually is a somatic problem.

This mindset, on the other hand, is not that sort of thing, which is one of the reasons (aside from, well, being an introvert - one unlucky enough to have been in twelfth grade in 1999, no less) the "broken introverts versus functioning extroverts" thing annoys the hell out of me.

[izzie]

5. I think it feeds your ego if people are like your self, so-------

I guess if you work in the back room by your self you do not care if people are like you as your ego is feed with in itself. The others are not so self possessed.

[conflictgirl]

7. It seems especially unfair when jobs are biased against introverts

My husband and I are both introverts, and there are jobs he hasn't gotten because of how he scored on the Myers-Briggs tests. I think that's so incredibly unfair, because being an introvert isn't an indicator of how good an employee will be (for most jobs). For many jobs, there is absolutely no advantage to being an extrovert. We're not all supposed to be introverts. But in modern American society, it seems like there's a very rigid, limiting view of what we're supposed to be like.

[NMMNG]

8. Good question

If you aren't willing to be "part of the gang" and socialize rather than just do your work people act like there is something wrong with you. Just one reason why the office environment and I didn't click.

[eugeneliberal]

87. You would think

that employers would be eager to hire someone who is productive and doesn't feel compelled to spend the work day socializing around the water cooler.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

9. I've had these problems before.

I'm introverted in a unique kind of way. In fact, a Navy guy that I know who spent time in Japan asked me if I had ever lived there. I told him no, and asked why. He said that my personality and mannerisms were very much like a lot of Japanese people. Supposedly introversion in Japan is an OK thing.

As far as what employers are looking for in an employees personality, well I think they all want someone who has the same exact personality as George W. Bush.:puke:

[senseandsensibility]

44. I don't doubt what you say about Japanese inrtoverts

however the most extroverted person at my workplace is ethnically Japanese. Of course she is very Americanized, and her extroverted nature is not irritating or "put on" in any way. She really seems to enjoy knowing about and connecting with everyone. I admire that. Others who think of themselves as extroverted, but really just want to get attention, feed their egos, or fit in with "cool kids" when they should be way past that kind of thing do not impress me.

[KT2000]

10. America values extroversion

One example, in England extroversion is considered a problem and introversion is the norm, and someone else mentioned Japan.
It's about American culture.

As an introvert myself, it was many years of feeling like a misfit and thinking I needed to change myself to be normal. Now that I work in something that suits me, I enjoy those introverted qualities.

[Triana]

34. America values arrogant, chest-beating, loud-mouthed knuckle-draggers...

...I'm an introvert too and corprat AmeriKKKa never suited me for the same reasons. I never fit in at school or in the corprat realm of things. Not chatty, loud, arrogant, or apeish enough. Oh well!

I just learned to accept that one lives and dies alone. I'll never be seen or heard above the din of the alpha-tribe. I learn to enjoy the quietude of being invisible. It's not my world. I'm just waiting for the bus and frankly, haven't had much use for the place or the place much use for me. I'll survive until I die and the sun will come up the next day and the tiny grain of sand on the teeming beach will never be noticed missing. It's not all so depressing. There's a certain peace in it, beyond the frustration of being pretty much considered a living dead by over half of American society which apparently prefers the intellectual level of George bu$h to that of Stephen Hawking or Stephen Pinker -- because well, you can't have a 'beer' with Stephen Hawking (I'm not so sure about that). You can have one with Pinker too, and those are kind of folks and environments that suit us "elitist intellectuals". Or, me, anyway.

[Kiouni]

12. nah, introverts just seem more

scary, sitting there all day....not talking, reading their gun magaines.. "I know what your thinking!" I yell but they as usual they don't say anything.

[Buns_of_Fire]

28. Yeah, and then they look over the top of the magazine,

give you that Charles Bronson smile like he did at the end of "Death Wish," point their finger at you and make like their thumb is the hammer, drop the hammer, and then lower their gaze back to the magazine, still with that enigmatic smile, never saying a word the whole time. Creepy. (And while I've gotten away with it myself, :evilgrin: I don't recommend it in today's office environment...)

[Kickin_Donkey]

13. We don't play the game ...

the social game, that is. We don't brown-nose the boss, toot our own horns, schmooze to grease the wheels.

Unfortunely, in American society, especially in the office, it's the "outgoing personality" that's valued. It's the people who sell themselves, make a splash, play the squeaky wheel.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

14. I found I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't

When it comes to workplace socializing, I been more of the extrovert and have gotten co-workers backstabbing me or talking behind my back and taking little thing I've said out of context and tried to hang me on something. After this happened a few times, I became a introvert, basically my attitude was I'm here to do the job and not to socialize. I'm not an asshole to anyone, I do my job and socialize in the context of the job, I'm don't go out of my way to fit in to be a part of the clique so some people have a problem with that. I had a supervisor at a job I had once say "You know no one likes you here" I reply "Why's that I've haven't done anything to anyone to cause have I." His reply to this was nothing and I then say "Must be because I'm not trying to part of the clique and I'm not hanging out with anyone during non-work hours, I'm here to do my job and earn my paycheck, which should be the reason everyone is here." He then kind of back pedals, and I say "I guess your trying to make me feel like an weirdo then by saying this to me, you know this isn't high school and that stuff doesn't usually work on adults, isn't that what this company wants working here."

[Buns_of_Fire]

22. Unfortunately, I've found "adults" are NOT what some companies

want. "Doing the job" is not what you're there for -- feeding the diseased egos of those above you IS.

'Twas a time, back in the IBM 360/30 days, when IT departments tended to be staffed with both types. The extroverts sold the "product" -- system, procedure, enhancement, whatever -- to the user or client. Then they'd come back and have the introvert technicians (like moi) "make it so" (usually to the tune of "you promised them WHAT???"). We coexisted pretty-much peacefully, each using their particular skills where they were most beneficial.

That has, of course, changed drastically. My personal downfall was in refusing to attend the Department VP's monthly "outtings" because I had more productive things to do at work, and I was behind schedule on most everything, anyway. But no, her "outtings" were more important to her than getting the job done. Silly me, I thought that I was paid to do my job.

[CrispyQ]

61. Buns_of_Fire

Great screen name!!

My husband downfall was when he refused to go into work on New Years Eve for the big scary Y2K problem. He asked his boss if there were not enough people coming in & the boss said, "We have plenty of people, but it would look good to have everyone from our team there." In other words, the boss thought it would look good for her to have everyone there.

[Buns_of_Fire]

79. "It's better to LOOK good than to FEEL good."

Billy Crystal knew what he was talking about, didn't he? "Meritocracy" has devolved into "Bullshitocracy," with grave long-term consequences, I fear.

(And thank you. I chalk the screen name up to an OD of Cabernet Sauvignon one chilly evening. :-) )

[SensibleAmerican]

16. Because introverts don't make the sale

n/t

[readmoreoften]

17. Yeah, but extroverts don't make the product. :) /nt

[SensibleAmerican]

18. Very true

However, I don't know if I agree with the 1960s corporate culture that determined what job you got based upon what school you went to and what your grades were. After all, I can name a bunch of CEOs who either failed out or dropped out of school (for starters, Bill Gates) and I can also name a bunch of MIT and Harvard graduates who are poor job performers.

Namely, I don't believe your entire career should be based upon what you did from 18-22 years of age.

[Posteritatis]

64. Well-played, Sir! (n/t)

[bloom]

121. exactly

I tried to get the management to appreciate the creatives who actually make the product. They never tried to "get it".

19. I also think that it is easier being an introvert

if you have an upper class background. In the middle and lower class, being loud mouthed and showing off is more expected. When I was young, I used to think if I admitted to being shy, the men in white coats would come and cart me away. What a friggin hassle.

[Kailassa]

20. Actually, everyone hates everyone in the average workplace.

But it's only the introverts that pick up the vibes.

[Marr]

37. Ha! I think you're right.

:D

[many a good man]

51. ROFL! How true.

How wise. Best post of the day! :kick:

[NashVegas]

24. Deal-Making Is Key

Say you outsource parts of your business. You've got to make a deal with another company to get the work done, and you've got to make a good deal.

With all the idiots now wandering around our offices, an extrovert is less likely to mind that they're working with idiots than an educated introvert.

And anyway, who wants to hire someone brighter than themselves?

[idgiehkt]

93. no, the extrovert is just more likely to BE the idiot

that everyone can't stand working with.

[Fox Mulder]

25. I'm an introvert and I get treated the same way at work.

No one talks to me. Everyone avoids me or looks away when they're walking in my direction.

It's like :wtf: Whatever did I do to them? I also get in trouble at work because I don't ask questions about my job. You know, just because I don't ask questions or talk to the people, doesn't mean I don't know my job. I learn more by observation than by asking questions.

I also hate the stereotype that all introverts are assholes. I'm not an asshole. Just because I don't talk to people doesn't mean I'm an asshole. But people think I am.

Sometimes I just hate being around people.

[idgiehkt]

94. sometimes?

I hate it ALL the time...

god bless you honey.

[Quantess]

125. Do you really want everyone to greet you when passing?

Didn't think so.

If you did, you'd have to be constantly have something inane, quickly understood, and pointless to say, just for the sake of saying it. That's not my style and it never has been. A smile and a nod I can deal with, but I just can't do the useless glib greeting when passing people. If there's something worth saying, I'll say it. I'm actually a friendly & nice person, but I hate being expected to do pointless exchanges.

Edit to add: So if you aren't getting greeted all the time in your workplace, it's probably because you don't do it so well, because it's not your style---same as me. I'd say we're doing pretty well.

[newportdadde]

26. I'm also in IT, introverts get screwed on promotions.

Your right its just grownup high school

I've been working in the field for 7 years, I've seen many fellow employees with less experience 5 years or less promoted beyond me. Talking through it with my wife I believe its because I am an introvert, I'm not the pencil thin or overweight basement dweller that forms the stereotype, I'm just quite and it takes me a while to warm up to new people.

Its something I'm working on but it is hard. I'm the guy who stays to work on the problem while everyone goes to the department get together over lunch. Performance wise I get good reviews but I get dinged on communication.

My reviews consist of how I need more 'presence'.

Here is how an introvert communicates or at least how I do it. If we enter a meeting I do not shoot off my mouth just to hear myself speak and have everyone look at me and pay attention to me. If a topic comes up that I know important information about I share that information, if a topic comes up I do not have information on I do not talk about it. This is seen as a negative by someone who is an extrovert, in-fact I think it makes them uncomfortable.

My new theory is that to get ahead in the corporate world you need three things:

1) Moderate intelligence but not too intelligent, a nice 2.75 to 3.00 type GPA is fine.

2) A nice appearance, attractive to the opposite sex and seen as 'cool' by the same sex. For men it helps if your tall, for women thin. If you look at upper management the men are almost always 6ft the women are almost always ow size 6 or less. I saw a size 2 hottie get a promotion at 29 years old, 6 years experience that took another lady I worked with, a great talented lady, 25 years to get. The difference? The 29 year old looks like she could pose in Playboy, the 50 year old well is the farthest from.

3) The ability to communicate with anyone about anything. I have a good friend who can do this, we started on the same day and he is now two positions above me. How did he do it? The guy can talk to ANYONE about ANYTHING. I've seen him stop and get into conversation with strangers about all kinds of things. You could throw this guy into a cell with a madman and they would have an in-depth discussion on his straight jacket. Its crazy.

The corporate world parrots diversity but not when it comes to introverts.

[B3Nut]

32. Another IT introvert here

Mostly I'm left to myself, building and repairing PC's and making the servers behave. I can deal with the users, but enjoy just working quietly by myself. I'm more outgoing with close friends (my boss and I cut up and joke quite a bit, he's a DU'er too) but take a while to open up to strangers. I'm a musician too, a lot of us tend to be introverted and introspective unless we're performing. Interesting dynamics, no wonder so-called "normal" people think we're wierd. :D

I was one of those kids that always got picked on by the jocks in school...I just ignored them, I figured they weren't intelligent enough to be worth bothering with and trying to respond to them would only make it worse. ;)

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Triana]

39. You gotta be able to bullshit...

...that's what it is. Puff yourself up and act like you know everything (even if you don't). They like that. The person who actually DOES know something but who is quiet and does some work gets overlooked for the loudmouth bullshitter who claims (s)he knows everything but doesn't. Like you know, George bu$h.

The corporate world is definitely not diverse - they may make a nicey-nice pretense of it but in reality, they just are NOT.

[LWolf]

27. Not everybody hates introverts.

Personally, I love them. I can be in the same place without them constantly needing me. It's the extroverts, with their constant demands for attention, that drive me insane. ;)

Of course, I'm in the minority in the U.S..

[Trailrider1951]

29. After reading all these posts, I can add one more thing to the mix

And that is this: after spending 25 years working for big corporations, I have noticed that many of these asshole managers promote people who know how to MANIPULATE other people. That is what they do, that is what they look for, and that is what they promote. If you are a person who deals with people on an open and honest basis, you are not management material.....been there done that, got the t-shirt. Manipulative people suck.:puke:

[idgiehkt]

96. amen to that.

it's a definite quid pro quo deal, whether it's about sex or just a mutual understanding about who bends over on which days in a figurative sense.

I think extroverts are both much better at manipulating and easier to manipulate.

[Marie26]

30. Extroverts are the majority.

So they expect everyone to be like them.

[sendero]

31. This is strange..

... I've worked in the technology (programming) world most of my life. Most of those years I worked at home alone or with one other person.

I'm not really an introvert nor am I really an extrovert. I find the labels kind of confusing. I can sit in front of a computer for hours and be just fine, but I can also talk to almost anyone about almost anything and enjoy the interaction.

I recently flunked a job interview and I'm pretty sure it wasn't over the techical so they must not have liked my "personality". I didn't take any tests, but the second interviewer in the team really seemed to go out of his way to piss me off. I didn't get nasty, but I'm sure my facial expression showed my general lack of happiness with being asked again and again to do something I'd already admitted I did not know how to do.


I understand on some level what hiring folks are worried about. Even a programmer or network admin needs to be able to communicate and work with others. Programmmers who want to hide in their cubicle and write the code they "think" is needed are pretty much useless.

I notice that damn near every job req you read on monster or career builder now includes the "excellent verbal and written communication skills, team player, blah, blah, blah", stuff nobody gave two craps about when I last worked for a company in the early 90s. So I agree, there is a new mindset and who knows how useful it really is - most pigeonholes aren't too useful.

[raccoon]

102. "Team player" means somebody who goes along to get along.

That is, don't argue and keep the peace.

[omega minimo]

33. They think

[donsu]

90. yeah - I like uninterrupted thought

but if you say that, people look at you funny

and I gave up on cocktail parties at a young age because they were boring.

[rolleitreks]

35. Noticed the same in the college admission gauntlets.

They appear to want good students, but also kids extremely active in extracuriculars and athletics. Helps if you've gained a leadership position. They don't seem terribly interested in the poet or chemist who could care less about student government or football. Guess they're sorting for the corporations . . .

[Marr]

36. Being able to communicate effectively is very important.

I'm an introvert myself, but when I go to a business meeting I make a point of acting like an extrovert. It's not so much that I want to convince people I'm something that I'm not- it's just that you have to MEET people if you want them to remember you or give you a shot at that next opportunity.

The most talented guy I know is also an extreme introvert. He couldn't even keep his head above water when he was freelancing, because he just couldn't make any connections. That was *his* fault- not everyone elses'. He needed to get out there and schmooze, but he couldn't- or didn't.

[patcox2]

38. Because introverts can be self-absorbed and insensitive.

Besides, if you are introverted (thats the general "you" and not a reference to any poster) what do you care what others think of you?

[Lindacooks]

41. That's a crock of s***.

Introverts are usually shy, not insensitive. And they're certainly not self-absorbed.

When I think 'insensitive and self-absorbed' I think of the back-slapping salesman who runs on at the mouth.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. Introverts aren't 'shy'.

'Shy' implies social anxiety, which isn't something most introverts I've known (including myself) happen to suffer from. Extroverts seem to think introverts must be shy because they don't do small talk and keep quiet if they don't actually have anything to say, but it's not the case.

Having to interact with other people for any exended length of time is, for an introvert, actually a physically draining experience. This is something very different from shyness.

[Posteritatis]

69. OT: *you* receive Comic Taste Points! (n/t)

[October]

108. Well-said. Thank you.

Talk about insensitive -- that post certainly was! Sheesh!

We need a balance. Not everyone thinks out loud and that should be ok.

[readmoreoften]

43. And extroverts like GWB are so loving and giving.

Geez, there's a difference between being introverted and being catatonic or in a coma. Silliest thing I ever heard.

[TrogL]

45. Because of how they treat us

Other posters have noted being turned down for promotion, failing to get jobs, bullying.

[Posteritatis]

65. That's "solipsist," not "introverted." (n/t)

[Zynx]

86. That is a big load of whale vomit.

Extroverts tend to care a lot more about making a good case for themselves than actually helping people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. And extroverts spend so much effort socializing and ostracizing...

... that they never pause to wonder how their work gets done.

People care what people think of them, because it determines how well they are paid.

When I was a manager, I took great pains to try to quantify the contribution people actually made, not the self-proclaimed contribution. Consequently, the story that my managers heard from the extroverts was at odds with my recommendations.

It only takes one or two back-slapping glad-handing subordinates to undermine the credibility of a manager who wants only to reward high performing individuals with his boss.

This is a big reason for the poor performance of many organizations. "Introverts", those who value job performance over social performance, don't tend to thrive in an office political environment.

Perhaps one day, us Morlocks will exact our revenge on the Eloi. ;)

[Nutmegger]

42. I'm an introvert also..........................

No big deal.

[Dulcinea]

46. Because introverts aren't transparent.

Corporate America likes predictability. Managers like ass-kissers, schmoozers & people who they can pin down. Most managers never know what an introvert is thinking, so they don't trust them.

I'm neither an extrovert nor an introvert. I'm very social with my friends & people I get good vibes from (for lack of a better term), but I have no use for office politics & hate schmoozing, so I've been passed over for promotion several times in favor of people who play the game. I'm kind & polite to everyone, I do my job to the best of my ability, keep a low profile & go home. Consequently, I get comments on my review like "Not a team player" & "Does not show leadership." Ugh. Whatever. :eyes:

[TrogL]

49. I got "does not play well with others"

...in the "good qualities" column.

My boss has a sense of humour.

[JVS]

48. Why should an introvert care?

[Lilith Velkor]

54. What a disingenuous question.

It proves the OP's point nicely. Well done! :thumbsup:

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. Because payday is important. n/t

[bling bling]

50. Introverts lose energy when around people too long.

They need to be alone to recharge. Extroverts lose energy when they spend too much time alone. They recharge by being around people.

This, IMO, is the only true difference between the two. I think a lot of characteristics are wrongly attributed to Introverted or Extrovertedness.

[caraher]

53. Maybe that's why when we got a "CEO president" he had no brains...

or at least had the act down pat.

when I set out as an undercover journalist seeking a white-collar corporate job for my book Bait and Switch, I was shocked to find the emphasis entirely on such elusive qualities as "personality," "attitude" and "likability." Play down the smarts, the career coaches and self-help books advised, cull the experience and exude a "positive attitude."

Just remember all the great reasons given for what popularity * had while campaigning in 2000... "the kind of guy you'd like to have a beer with." Mumbled incoherently about "fuzzy math" in the face of people who'd done their homework. The perfect embodiment of the empty values of a corporate culture that rewards self-promotion over competence.

[IronLionZion]

60. Yeah, people said Bush was more "fun to hang out with" than Kerry

And I yelled BS! I think a smart guy like Kerry or Gore would be very interesting to hang out with. At least they can drink a real beer and carry on an intelligent conversation.

How can you have a beer with Bush when his is nonalcoholic?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. I'd definitely rather talk environment with Gore or banking scandals

with Kerry, beer or no beer, than listen to the Bushboy's incoherent ramblings. (I don't know how drunk I'd have to get for a Bushboy utterance to sound sensible.

But a lot of Americans have never advanced beyong high school socially or pyschologically. They still admire the jocks and bullies and prom queens.

[Demobrat]

55. I certainly don't hate introverts

I am neither one nor the other, somewhere in the middle but definately leaning towards introvert. But it's the extreme extraverts, with their constant screeching "look at me look at me look at me pay attention to meeeeeee" that I can't stand. Sometimes I feel sorry for them, because I think it must really suck to be so dependent on attention from others to feel good about yourself. But most of the time I just wish they would knock the endless repetitive babble OFF.

[survivor999]

76. I don't hate introverts either.

And i cannot stand blabbing extroverts who cannot think!!!

[citizen snips]

84. you just described the entire lounge.

:sarcasm:

[survivor999]

103. Ahahahah!

True! Let them stay there and keep each other company. :)

[citizen snips]

107. I venture into the lounge sometimes

when I have enough courage.

[AngryOldDem]

56. I think we are just misunderstood

It used to piss me off when people would make comments about my personality. Now, I don't care. I am who I am. Take it or leave it.

[IronLionZion]

57. I keep to myself and that's the way I like it. I like my space. nt

[CrispyQ]

58. Proud introvert here.

Married to a bigger introvert!

We hardly ever answer the phone, the door or go out. We like staying at home & not having to deal with people. Fortunately, I work in a very small office of mostly other introverts! We're software engineers & programmers. I have never worked in such a quiet, peaceful environment!

Joke:

How do you tell an extroverted engineer from an introverted engineer?


The extroverted engineer looks at the toes of your shoes!



on edit: One of the best bosses I had was also an introvert. I knew I like him when at my interview he said, "The only reason any of us works is to support our private lives."

[tridim]

67. How did you meet your introvert husband?

I'd love to meet another introvert, but it's extremely difficult.

[SmokingJacket]

59. Because we now live in a Service Economy.

It sucks. There was a recent thread about how awful customer service in big box stores is these days. Well, what other kind of job can a kid with no experience get these days, even if he's shy or has terrible communication skills?

Used to be the work a shy person did was valued. Now those jobs are in India, and you're only valued if you have a nice telephone voice or can keep smiling while you're shoveling up those french fries.

HUGE generalization, I'm aware -- but we are more service-oriented these days.

ALSO -- and my extrovert friend admitted this to me -- extroverts don't know what introverts are thinking, and that freaks them out. What if they're judging you??!

[idgiehkt]

101. they do seem to like to exert control over their environments

and we don't give them enough to 'control'. I've also found that extroverts need to have a 'pecking order' in every job environment, where they are at the top and everyone else is stair-stepped in degree of obnoxiousness. I never fall into where on the ladder I'm supposed to be and it seems to cause problems for me at every job. I should say though, that this is just true of my experiences working with a majority of or all women, with men it seems easier. Women HAVE to have a queen bee and a pecking order, and I'm always insufficiently impressed with her whoever she is.

[stubtoe]

63. Proud to be an Introvert!

But I must confess, I've been happiest working for myself. No pain-in-the-butt coworkers or supervisors. Life is good.

[StellaBlue]

70. Excellent post

K&R

I hate the corporate teamplayeristic, A-personality, macho crap. I refuse to buy in. Fuck 'em.

And I am actually an extrovert, but it still pisses me off. But at least now I realize why I can't get a decent job despite my experience and two degrees! I'm seeming too "smart"! I should just try to seem "likable". I get it!

:sarcasm:

Oh, yeah, and fuck 'em.

[LittleClarkie]

71. At D&D conventions, you DO smell

First hand experience. But then, I lived within driving distance and could shower once in a while.

Viva la geeks.

[tblue37]

72. I have a piece up on my

Teacher, Teacher website entitled "Does Not Play Well with Others":
http://teacherblue.homestead.com/playswell.html
It is about the way introverted students, no matter how intelligent, are penalized in today's educational system.

Here is what I say at the end of the essay:

In "The Dismal Discussion Class" I complain about the fact that we overvalue gregariousness in the classroom and a student's willingness to talk (even when he has nothing to say) and to show off or otherwise put himself on display. We also undervalue self-effacing intellectual seriousness. Generally speaking, learning is not a performance art, and at the deepest level, intellectual activity is more likely to require solitude than group interaction.

It is time we stopped thinking of "Plays well with others" as the most important quality in a student and penalizing those who do not possess that trait.

Many of the brightest, most talented, and most serious students simply do not play all that well with others.

If you want to read "The Dismal Discussion Class," it is at http://teacherblue.homestead.com/discussion.html

BTW, at one point in the essay I have this to say about W:

I consider the current President Bush to be the poster child for the effect excessive social success can have on a person's intellectual development.

[eppur_se_muova]

75. It seems to be "in style" lately to insist that all problem solving ...

nowadays is done in groups. Students coming into college seem to think that every assignment is a group assignment, and they can share notes, results, etc. as they wish. It amazes me that students have to be told that they should only turn in their own work!!

This 'groupthink' approach strikes me as fundamentally flawed. It often passes under the name of "collaboration", but real collaboration consists of capable individuals combining their talents, which have been developed to a good degree already. You can't build a capable group except by starting with capable individuals. The idea that capabilities somehow emerge when people work in groups borders on superstituous, 'magical' thinking. People work in groups on large projects because each person is expected to solve some small part of the whole, not because every single part is necessarily collaborative.

It's not like there's a complete lack of need for people who can work on their own, either. Most of what I've done in my career has had a very strong requirement for independent thought and action.

We need some kind of protection from people with 'theories' about education that get tested on our kids.

[TrogL]

80. There's another fad on its way

Trying to force systems analysts and techs to work in pairs.

I have a guy I need to work with on a day to day basis. After an hour of him in my face I'm ready to strangle him.

[survivor999]

104. It sucks...

One thing is to have another person you can turn to WHEN you need it. Another is to have to be with this person ALL the time! Most of the time it's just counterproductive. I suspect it's mostly so that people keep an eye on each other and snitch if there is a hint of anything; something like that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. It's corporate influence on the school system

They want "team players," so they're asking the schools to train 'em young.

Twenty-five years ago, the corporate world decided that it no longer wanted liberal arts majors, because 1) you have to train them for the job, and 2) they don't fit into the role of obedient little cog in the machine. It stopped hiring liberal arts majors, and the universities fell into line, offering more and more vocational majors and cutting back the liberal arts departments.

[LWolf]

109. I'm an introvert.

I play pretty well with others when I have to; given a choice, I prefer to work on my own.

I'm also a teacher. I don't agree with your essay.

First, there is no one teaching method that fits all students best. Lecture fits very few. It's the most efficient way to deliver information to a large body of listeners; it fits the factory model for education. Developmentally, younger learners have a social need to talk about content, and to interact with peers. Even introverts. Learning is strengthened by such discussion, whether it is whole class, small group, with a partner, or one-on-one with the teacher. I recommend some of all of the above, with opportunities to demonstrate understanding and get feedback in other formats in addition to discussion as well. Intellectual activity requires the ability to think independently, and to interact with others exploring concepts and ideas. It's not a one-way street.

Introverts don't like to work with others. Sometimes they have to whether they want to or not, just like the real world. Some kids need group work. The menu needs to include both group and independent work to serve all.

As an introvert, I can tell you that I hate lectures. I always did. I was an expert note and test taker. I hated lectures so much that I used section dividers in my binder made from coloring pages on cardstock...even in college. When my professor was lecturing, I was coloring. If I didn't, I got so impatient with the "sit still and listen" format that I'd lose track of the topic. I could listen, sift through the long-winded lecture for important points, jot them down, and finish a coloring page or two while I was at it. People around me were at first shocked, then amused. Professors were often insulted, and began to call on me constantly, sure I wasn't attending. So I took the opportunity to monopolize the "floor" for discussion; introvert I may be, but I can lecture with the best of them. It doesn't take any real communication skill to lecture, at least in my experience.

As an introvert, I was also not real thrilled with "discussion." I tended, from primary school through college, to sit back and let everyone else talk until forced to respond, or until I couldn't stand listening to them miss the big ideas in the concept over and over. When forced, by teacher or by irritation, I never had any trouble bringing other povs into the conversation. As a working adult, I still don't speak up at staff meetings. I've been told that I "intimidate" colleagues when I do. Not being an extrovert who actually enjoys the interaction, I don't have all the social nuances down. I'm too blunt.

How would this introvert prefer to learn? Give me a central idea to explore and report my findings back. Ask me a higher-level question, and leave me alone to decide how to come to grips with it. Inquiry. Or, if you want me to know a particular body of facts, give them to me on paper, and allow me to come back with questions if I need help.

[tblue37]

110. L Wolf--

How would this introvert prefer to learn? Give me a central idea to explore and report my findings back. Ask me a higher-level question, and leave me alone to decide how to come to grips with it. Inquiry. Or, if you want me to know a particular body of facts, give them to me on paper, and allow me to come back with questions if I need help.

I don't think you are disagreeing with my essay all that much. My point is that a student who likes to follow an idea to its depths on his own is often the most serious sort of student, most deeply intellectual. That should not be penalized, but in our current system it is.

[LWolf]

123. I agree on this much:

In the current system, if the teacher simply works within, or follows it, many students are penalized.

Many teachers realize this, and do more, or do differently, whatever chance they get. Of course, some teachers trying to compensate for resources and opportunities lacking is not the same thing as a system that supports all learners.

[TrogL]

128. I get in lots of trouble at staff meetings

As a working adult, I still don't speak up at staff meetings. I've been told that I "intimidate" colleagues when I do. Not being an extrovert who actually enjoys the interaction, I don't have all the social nuances down. I'm too blunt.

I'm the one who get stucks saying the thing that needs to be said, but nobody else wants to say it for "social" reasons.

On another topic, I think you're mixing introversion/extroversion issues with learning styles. In another thread it was recently pointed out that appear to be three main learning styles:

• visual
  
• auditory
  
• kinethenic (sp?) ie. touching/moving
  

A good teacher will use all three in his presentation so no-one gets left out. At the office, it becomes evident on how people remember passwords. I visualize them, a collegues has to mumble them to himself, and a third colleague has to pretend type them on a keypad or the back of his hand.

In the classroom, I tended to read the on-board notes and flip through the textbook, others would listen and a small minority could only retain the material if they wrote it down or otherwise involved movement in their learning.

There did seem to be a certain amount of correlation between introvert readers and verbal extroverts but there were notable exceptions.

[LWolf]

129. You are correct that there is a mixing;

I was responding to the article written by the poster, which seemed to say that lecture was needed to serve the introvert's preferred method of learning.

There are, of course, the 3 learning styles you mention; and then there are all of Gardiner's multiple intelligences, which incorporate those 3 and others. And.... probably many more. Someone who is not an auditory learner, introvert or not, is probably not going to benefit much from lecture. Auditory learners will.

I think learning style is pretty easy to confuse with instructional method or process. Inquiry is not a learning style, per se, but a process that I prefer to learn through. In that process, I'll do a lot of visual stuff, because I'm a more visual learner. Using Gardiner's work, I'm verbal/linguistic, which means that talking and writing are going to be a big part of how I process new learning. I'm also strongly intrapersonal; the introvert, if we have to find a place to put that quality. ;)

:hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

77. God bless you for bringing this up.

We introverts can focus in powerful ways, but we trip up when someone steals the thunder in the room. No other reason, but that they can talk down to everybody's level. I figure that they can afford to look calm, because they really don't know how bad things are.

[OnionPatch]

78. That's sad that you have such a work culture

But I'm not so sure every workplace is like yours.

I also work in IT (a very large company) and we also have those introverted programmer types. Then there are the rest of us techies who may or may not be introverted. I am a techie (same as your "desktop user"? :shrug:) who is a little of both (sometimes introverted sometimes feeling more social) if that's possible.

At our workplace, these quiet, introverted programmers and systems people are highly respected and looked upon with a certain degree of awe. We treat them the same as the rest of us. We are very aware that we could not do our jobs without them.

Oh, by the way, the techies do not get paid as much as the programmers and systems people. We are expendable, they are not.

[PinkyisBlue]

81. In my office, the extroverts rule.

We are not allowed to discuss politics at all, because the office princess is a die-hard Republican, loves George Bush and can't stand hearing anything negative about him. So you know what we have to talk about? American Idol, a show I never watch.

It's the people who know how to manipulate things behind the scenes, how to play the game, that get ahead. You don't get as far in my office by merely doing your job well, not complaining, and being quiet.

[mistertrickster]

82. Good point. A strong human "need" is conformity. Introverts are

by nature, NOT conformist because they are interested in what is going on in their own heads instead of what is going on in the group.

They don't play by "the rules" that the majority extroverts have set up. If you don't care what people think about you, for instance, you become very dangerous to people in power that depend on making their underlings worry about what the group thinks of you.

[Blue_Tires]

83. no wonder im not getting hired!

[rudy23]

85. "You've got shy/asshole confusion" -- Larry David

I love him for saying that. It's true, people have shy/asshole confusion. People judge others by the way they themselves act. So when they see an introvert sitting by themselves, they think it must be because they are being assholes. I've gotten this all my life. They don't understand that sometimes I just can't think of anything to say, or I feel insincere making small talk.

Extroverts think of it as a snubbing, rather than a person meditating, or trying to sort out their thoughts before they jump into the social fray. Corporate America likes pushiness, and obviousness. Because they can't quantify subtlety.

[siouxsiecreamcheese]

118. i agree

I'm extremely introverted, and have been called everything from just quiet/shy to snob. Its just that I don't like dealing with loudmouths. i'm not a people person and never have been. If people just shut up and think before they open thier mouths the world would be a lot more pleasant. If i don't have anything to say why bother speaking at all?

[gristy]

88. Why do you think everybody hates introverts?

That certainly is not true.

[Mr_Spock]

89. I love 'em

Introverts are interesting people - like me :D

[idgiehkt]

91. thanks for posting this.

I cannot pass these fucking Minnesota whatever tests...i can't get any job at K-mart or JCPenney or whatever. I am a diehard, incurable introvert. Introverts think for themselves and don't follow the pack. I have noticed this shit going on in these pre-employment screenings for at least a decade and I am sick of it. I want someone to do a study that asks some questions like:

Is your productivity up or down because of getting rid of introverted people? Since we are good at focusing on a task and not being distracted by office politics, what's it been like without us around?
How about theft? Do introverts steal more? I doubt it. Have your loss prevention stats changed significantly by booting all of us?
How is the office environment bettered by just hiring loudmouth, gossiping, shit-stirring conformist freaks? Don't you want to balance it out with some people who don't give a shit who is fucking the secretary this week?

and so on....

[kskiska]

97. I've got a t-shirt that says

"I live in my own world - but it's OK, they like me here."

I've never understood why employers preferred people who wasted company time socializing rather than quiet people who did their work.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

99. That's silly. Some introverts are very social.

My SO and I ae both introverts, but we are relatively outgoing and social when needed. We just need quiet, down time to recharge our batteries. Introverted is a way of thinking that doesn't necessarily mean "shy" or "anti-social".

[Joanne98]

100. They are looking for ass-kisses and boot-lickers..............

If they need "skills" they can get those in India.

[survivor999]

105. Here is what I think.

[gulliver]

106. Introverts are individuals. Extroverts are all the same few people.

That's a broad generalization, but I think it is true. Introverts tend to have a complex, unique map of self. Extroverts share in a set of common maps of self. So introverts in a crowd find de-energizing cognitive dissonance where extroverts find energizing harmony. At least that is the theory I work under. Obviously, I realize there are plenty of exceptions (one-dimensional introverts and unique extroverts).

What worries me about the shared extrovert lifestyles and systems is that they are shared. Like any shared system (think Microsoft Windows, genetically narrow corn strains), extrovert thought systems are vulnerable to epidemic disease. That's where I categorize the Bush Administration and the current epidemic of foolishness it inspires and is sustained by.

I think in times like these it is important for introverts to "come down from the mountain" and learn to party a bit.

[Clarkie1]

119. Thought-provoking thoughts there.

I've never thought of the introvert/extrovert dichotomy that way. Of course, everyone is a combination of both...it's a spectrum.

I like being alone on the mountain-top (both literally and figuratively speaking), but I do understand your point, and you're right. Yet, I do often find a whole group of people who think and act the same de-energizing. I'm thinking, can't I talk about something more profound with someone one on one? I think the people that energize me the most are fellow introverts who have shared or unique interests.

As an aside, I think one of the interesting qualties of the internet is you never really know who the introverts and extroverts are.

[omega minimo]

111. They are afraid to look within themselves

:yoiks: :scared: :woohoo: :scared: :woohoo:

[Quantess]

113. Because people want instant gratification.

It takes too long to get to know an introvert, according to outspoken people.
Introverts aren't as fun at parties.

[aikoaiko]

124. Some people are confounding introversion and high IQ

and I don't recall their being a strong relationship. On the other hand, extroversion is a skill asset when team work and collaboration is the work model.

I'm a professor at a university and even there, where one would think of the introverted intellect as being valued, introverted people face "collegiality" requirements for tenure and promotion.

[killbotfactory]

126. Being an introvert sucks when looking for a job

It seems a lot of employers look for the best bullshitter first.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

127. I'm neither extorverted nor introverted

I have characteristics of both. I'm chatty and great at parties but I also crave a lot of solitude. None of those personality tests are ever able to pin me down. I suspect there are a lot of others like me.