"Every shell you sow....."

[Gabi Hayes]

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Question.

Where did the ones come from BEFORE the shells?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madeline_con]

2. 60 years of brutal occupation finally catches up with Israel...

and some people can't understand why Hezbollah would attack an "innocent" country.

[Gabi Hayes]

3. Was John Pilger right? from a massive London rally before the invasion:

I think that today may well be the beginning of true democracy in the new century. You know, democracy is not a game, played in an institution that rubber stamps the government, democracy is not one obsessed man using the power of kings to attack another country in our name, democracy is not siding with Ariel Sharon, a war criminal in order to crush the Palestinians. Democracy is this great event today representing the majority of the people of Great Britain...

I've been to Iraq, and I've been recently to Palestine and I've seen the suffering in those countries. The children dying in cancer wards in southern Iraq - dying because their country is denied the equipment to fight their cancer and to clean up battlefields contaminated by depleted uranium, a weapon of mass destruction used by the United States and Britain 12 years ago.

Let me quote two american scholars - John and Carl Muller who have examined objectively all the statistics of suffering in Iraq since the embargo was imposed 12 years ago. The conclude, and I quote:

''Economic sanctions have probably already taken the lives of more people in Iraq than have been killed by all weapons of mass destruction in history''

That research appeared not in a campaign pamphlet, but in the American establishment journal Foreign Affairs. Its a truth that many of my fellow journalists and broadcasters ignore or whisper because they know what it means. It means that a great crime against Iraq has already been committed in our name. And if they honest with themselves then they will know that the flattery of these imperial politicians has to stop and the truth has to be told.




Half the population of Iraq are children, consider what will happen to them when the cluster bombs fall and the depleted uranium is used as it will be.

You know we speak only of murder when some tragic and hideous event happens in familiar circumstances, but there is no difference let me assure you between murder committed here and murder committed by our government and its allies in Iraq and in Palestine. This is not rhetoric, and its time our public language for freed of its double standards.

If they attack Iraq, Bush and Blair will be international criminals. They must be stopped, because other countries will be next - Iran, North Korea, perhaps even eventually even China.

What is so exciting about today and all the other demonstrations and meetings that are happening all over Britain is that they represent the true moral mainstream of political life in this country. Today a taboo has been broken - we are the moderates, Bush and Blair are the extremists!

The danger for all of us lies not in Baghdad, but in Washington. Only one country has used a nuclear weapon of mass destruction against civilians, only one country has threatened to use nuclear weapons in south east Asia and the middle east, only one country has torn us all the treaties forged over years to prevent this happening, only one country is developing nuclear weapons for pre-emptive use and that is the United States.




Tony Blair belongs to George W Bush, not to us. If he joins the attack on Iraq he will kill untold numbers of innocent people, and he will promote the kind of terrorism that endangers the lives of all of us. Is that what they call patriotism? Blair and Bush are the true enemy within, I believe we have no choice now - our resistance to their murderous plans must be unrelenting.

[madeline_con]

5. "... not siding with Ariel Sharon, a war criminal ...

in order to crush the Palestinians."

:applause:

[Behind the Aegis]

6. .

:eyes:

[Gabi Hayes]

7. Sharon is just as much a war criminal as Bush, and much more specifically

accountable, if you know anything about what he's done personally

[Behind the Aegis]

8. and what about the others...

...they get a pass?

[madeline_con]

10. Do you mean the other war criminals who worked in Israeli gov?

They don't get a pass, but they weren't mentioned in the post.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selatius]

9. He got canned after what happened in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps

The refugees were slaughtered by the Phalanges militia during the Lebanese Civil War, from what I recall from memory, in the Israeli occupied portion of Lebanon. They had allied themselves with Israeli IDF troops during that infamous incident. He was removed as defence minister for being grossly negligent in not being aware of what the Philangist militias under his supervision were doing after the Kahan Commission implicated him as being "personally responsible."

Personally, I echo the sentiments of Chomsky when I say I feel he should've served time in prison like any war criminal for that horrible incident.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Don't inject reason and fact into this!

He was negligent. He should have known better. But, considering what was going on then, it was anyone's guess. I wonder how many know about the Arab massacre. Do you about Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. boo hoo!

You MADE it about Israel!

On edit: I was wrong...madeline_con made it about Israel.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

16. "I was a terrorist, when terrorism wasn't cool" then again,

Ronnie seemed to like them at the time. I guess it depends who you are working for at times.

www.soaw.org





About the School of the Americas / Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation

The US Army School of Americas (SOA), based in Fort Benning, Georgia, trains Latin American security personnel in combat, counter-insurgency, and counter-narcotics. SOA graduates are responsible for some of the worst human rights abuses in Latin America. In 1996 the Pentagon was forced to release training manuals used at the school that advocated torture, extortion and execution. Among the SOA's nearly 60,000 graduates are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. Lower-level SOA graduates have participated in human rights abuses that include the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the El Mozote Massacre of 900 civilians. (See Grads in the News).

In an attempt to deflect public criticism and disassociate the school from its dubious reputation, the SOA was renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHINSEC) in 2001. The name change was a result of a Department of Defense proposal included in the Defense Authorization Bill for Fiscal 2001, at a time when SOA opponents were poised to win a congressional vote on legislation that would have dismantled the school. The name-change measure passed when the House of Representatives defeated a bi-partisan amendment to close the SOA and conduct a congressional investigation by a narrow ten-vote margin. (See Talking Points, Critique of New School, Vote Roll Call.)

[Gabi Hayes]

17. thanks for the reminder, and for not continuing to highjack the thread.

my little niece went down there from college last fall to demonstrate against this school for terrorists, and she's been to El Salvador several times to work in a village that her church helped relocate and rebuild, after it had been DESTROYED by the US backed death squads during their civil war.

that's the kind of thing that will eventually STOP the poorest of the poor, the lowest of the low, from becoming terrorists, not trying to kill EVERYBODY

[jonnyblitz]

18. that is a typical tactic of the "pro" side, sidetracking the thread

to totally distract so you spend a good chunk of time dealing with "I know you are but what am I " childish bullshit. It's truly a sad act of desperation for everyboy to behold but what can you expect from people in complete denial of what Israel does/is doing or they are ok with it and want to make excuses.

They DO reap what they sow.

[Gabi Hayes]

19. I don't even want to get into Israel here.....there are enough threads

about it already

the picture was intended to be a statement about what we've given the world, after abandoning the hunt for REAL terrorists in Afghanistan, instead of creating unnecessary ones by invading Iraq.

that's it

the Isreal/Lebanon conflict is SUCH a great distraction from the complete unraveling of the Iraq situation, though, isn't it?

[The Magistrate]

20. And Every 'Terrorist', Mr. Hayes, Brings A Barrage Of Shells

So what is your point?

This is the kind of greeting card profundity that sounds nice at a glance but dissolves into a misty muddle on even a moment's serious consideration of what it actually might mean.

[Gabi Hayes]

21. you're so humbly profound at every turn, why don't you tell us all

what it means?

you seem to always have the answer to everything

could you please deign to enlighten us?

all I did was post a picture, without comment

do you have a problem with that?

and try hard not to hurt yourself coming down from your very high horse, your honor

[The Magistrate]

22. The Phrase, Sir, Means Nothing

A lot of speech conveys no real meaning, but is simply a sort of noise, agreeable to the utter, that sorts listeners into those who find it agreeable as well, and those who find it disagreeable, thus assisting in the collection of people into groups that can regard one another with a mutual enmity, content as kids in a candy store over the situation.

When a vicious cycle exists, in which each party blames the other for its actions and the consequences of those actions, any statement claiming to isolate the cause of the cycle which is, really, just one point within the cycle, will necessarily be flawed and innaccurate. It will always be easy for someone else to point to a different point in the cycle's operation and say it is instead this bit here that is the real cause. Neither will advance the cause of understanding how ro halt the cycle.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

26. The Mahatma, Sir, Is Indeed No Particular Favorite Of Mine

My character is low and contains many flaws, but moral commitment to pacifism is not among them.

Were you to enquire closely into the circumstances of England's departure from India, you would find that the contribution of Imerial Japanese infantrymen, and of calamatous riots throughout India early in the Pacific war by Congress Party members and supporters, that killed un-numbered thousands, had a good deal more to do with the actual decision of the English to leave than anything that gentleman did.

The statement on the poster in that picture is, in any case, not an urging of non-violence in general, but only an urging of one party in a conflict to stop employing violence. The idea it would be reciprocated is not worth engaging seriously.

"Saints should be presumed guilty until proved innocent."

[lostnfound]

27. That doesn't carry over into a preference for Malcolm over MLK,

would it?

[The Magistrate]

28. What It Carries Over To, Ma'am, Regarding Those Gentlemen

Is a recognition that, whether wittingly or no, they worked together in a complementary tandem. One of the most powerful arguments of the non-violent civil rights movement, though a seldom stated one, was that if concessions were not granted to the efforts of non-violent leadership, there was a great potential for violence waiting in the wings, that it would be to the interests of all to avoid rousing. Without that potential for violence inherent to the situation, that Mr. Malcom X was a convenient representation of, Dr. King would not have had nearly the degree of success he enjoyed.

My view of Mr. Malcom X is that he was an honest man much aggrevied, and without diverging into discussing elements of Fard Mohammed's theologies, that he labored under some false ideas for much of his career. But there is a great deal that is quite accurate and even helpful about his critique of racial relations in the U.S., not only then but to this day, that ought to be paid attention to.

The Mahatma Ghandi certainly played an important role in the English relenquishment of India, but it is simply a myth that this was achieved by non-violent resistance to it. His chief contributions were building the Indian Congress Party into a mass organization, and publicizing to a global audience the injustices of English rule, which his non-violent tactics certainly aided. But it would never in a thousand years have compelled the English to leave, by itself. The tremendous wave of violence that followed the arrest of the Congress Party leadership in the early stages of the Pacific War, after The Mahatma had declared his followers should not co-operate with the war effort unless India was free, shook the English profoundly, and demonstrated what a powerful engine of violence could be turned against them there quite easily. The tremendous strain imposed on England by the Second World War, and the demonstration by the events of that war of the impossibility in a future Asian conflict of holding India without colossal support from allies, combined with the previous factor, made it clearly the soundest policy to let go, and hope that doing so would bring sufficient good-will to maintain a friendly relation with the new government of the place, that would preserve many of the economic benefits of the former imperium.

[info being]

24. No logic

Breaking a cycle at any point in a cycle will halt the cycle. That's why it is called a "cycle".

[The Magistrate]

25. Where The Cycle, Sir, Consists Of A Reciprocal Conflict

Where it is broken will be to the advantage of one or the other party. Therefore any claim it ought to be broken at a particular point will be merely a not too well concealed attempt to bring about a condition advantageous to one party in the conflict. Such matters can be resolved only when both parties are resolved independently to halt the thing, and to seek no further advantage over the other. That is far from obtaining in this conflict.

[porphyrian]

29. Isn't that a song by the Police? - n/t

[sandnsea]

30. And vice versa

Every rocket dropped and public building blown up, another Israeli hard-liner they create. It works both ways.