Unspoken Fact: Israelis Killed by Hezbollah 10/2000-07/2006

[in_cog_ni_to]

Hezbollah Terrorist Attacks Since May 2000*

*Israel's unilateral withdrawal from southern Lebanon

Compiled by Mitchell Bard

(July 24, 2006)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

24 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah fired more than 70 Katyusha rockets into Israel, several of which landed in Nahariya, Safed, and Kiryat Shmona. Medics treated at least 49 people who were lightly to moderately wounded. More than 2200 rockets have been fired at Israeli cities since July 12, killing 17 Israelis, all of them civilians. 20 Israeli soldiers were killed in other incidents.

23 Jul 2006 - Shimon Glickblich, 60, of Haifa was killed Sunday morning (11:00) while driving his car in Haifa. Habib Isa Awad, 48, of Iblin, was killed while working in the carpentry shop in Kiryat Ata. Another 12 were wounded in the morning barrage in Haifa, and more later in the day as over 90 rockets were fired at Haifa, Akko, Kiryat Shmona, and elsewhere in northern Israel.

20 Jul 2006 - Five IDF soldiers were killed and five wounded in continuing exchanges of fire in the Lebanese village of Maroun al-Ras, near Avivim, where two soldiers were killed on Wednesday. The body of the fifth soldier, St.-Sgt. Yonatan (Sergei) Vlasyuk, 21, of Kibbutz Lahav was retrieved on July 22. At 16, Yonatan immigrated alone to Israel through the Jewish Agency's "Na'aleh" program. He was adopted by Dalia Gal, a member of Kibbutz Lahav in the Negev. An IDF officer was killed and three soldiers were wounded as two Apache (Cobra) combat helicopters on their way to Lebanon to assist IDF forces operating against Hezbollah terrorists near Avivim collided and then crashed south of Kiryat Shmona.

19 Jul 2006 - St.-Sgt. Yonatan Hadasi, 21, of Kibbutz Merhavia and St.-Sgt. Yotam Gilboa, 21, of Kibbutz Maoz Haim were killed and nine soldiers were wounded in exchanges of fire between IDF and Hezbollah in south Lebanon, near Moshav Avivim. The Israeli force had crossed the border to destroy the Hezbollah rocket-launching position at the former IDF outpost of Shaked. Rabia Abed Taluzi (3) and his brother Mahmoud (7) who were playing soccer outside their house were killed and dozens were wounded in two Katyusha rocket attacks on the Israeli Arab city of Nazareth.

18 Jul 2006 - Andrei Zelinksy, 36, was killed Tuesday evening in Nahariya outside a bomb shelter. Though he managed to save his family by rushing them into the shelter, he returned home to get a blanket for his daughter and was killed. Some 130 rockets were fired at the north on Tuesday, 100 of them within one hour and a half - also landing in the Haifa area, Karmiel, Tiberias, Safed, Maalot and Rosh Pina. About 60 people injured were evacuated to hospitals in Safed and Nahariya.

17 Jul 2006 - Over 50 rockets were fired towards the eastern and upper Galilee on Monday night. A Katyusha rocket hit the external wall of the Rebecca Sieff Hospital in Safed, causing damage to infrastructure; five patients, two doctors and two other hospital employees were injured. Earlier, 11 people were wounded in Haifa when a 3-story apartment building was hit by missile. The Israel Air Force destroyed at least ten long-range Iranian-made missiles capable of hitting Tel Aviv, by targeting a Hezbollah truck carrying the missiles before they could be launched. To date, missiles have been fired up to 40 kilometers into Israel.

16 Jul 2006 - Eight killed, 50 wounded in Hezbollah rocket attack on Haifa - Rockets began falling on the Haifa area shortly after 9:00 a.m. Eight employees of Israel Railways at the Haifa train depot were killed in a direct hit by a Fajar missile made in Syria. A total of over 50 people were wounded in Haifa and the Haifa Bay area.

15 Jul 2006 - Katyusha rockets landed for the first time in Tiberias, located 35 kilometers from the Lebanese border on the Sea of Galilee, as well as in nearby communities.

14 Jul 2006 - Shortly after 8:30 p.m. =46riday night an Israeli navy ship was severely damaged by an Iran-manufactured missile fired by Hezbollah. Four IDF soldiers were killed: Staff Sgt. Tal Amgar, 21, of Ashdod; Yaniv Hershkovitz, 21, of Haifa; Shai Atias, 19, ofRishon Lezion; and Dov Steinshuss, 37, of Karmiel. Omer Pesachov, 7, of Nahariya, and his grandmother Yehudit Itzkovitch, 58, of Moshav Meron were killed by a Katyusha rocket in Meron early Friday evening. Roni, Omer's older sister, was badly wounded, and the grandfather, Naftali, was lightly hurt. The family had fled the Katyushas in Nahariya to spend a quiet weekend with their grandparents.

13 Jul 2006 - Monica Seidman (Lehrer), 40, of Nahariya was killed in her home by a Katyusha rocket Thursday morning. In the evening, Nitzan Roseban, 33, was killed in Safed by a direct rocket hit. On Thursday evening Katyushas landed in Haifa.

12 Jul 2006 - Hezbollah terrorists infiltrated into Israeli territory and attacked two IDF armored jeeps patrolling the border with Lebanon, killing three soldiers and kidnapping two. Ground forces entered Lebanon in the area of the attack. A large explosive device was detonated underneath an Israeli tank, killing all four of the tank crew. An eighth soldier was killed when IDF troops entered Lebanon to try to retrieve the bodies of the tank crew. Throughout the day, Hezbollah terror organization fired Katyusha rockets and mortar shells at Israel's northern borders' communities and IDF posts.

27 May 2006 - An IDF soldier was wounded when Katyushas were fired at an army base at Mt. Meron in the upper Galilee.

27 Dec 2005 - A branch of a Palestinian organization connected to Al-Qaida fired 6 Katyushas, damaging a house in Kiryat Shmona and a house in Metulla. In response, the IAF attacked a training base of the Popular Front, south of Beirut.

21 Nov 2005 - An attempt to kidnap an IDF soldier was foiled when paratroopers patrolling near Rajar village discerned a Hezbollah unit approaching. Private David Markovitz opened fire, killing all four. In a heavy attack of mortars and Katyusha rockets that ensued, nine soldiers and and two civilians were injured.

29 Jun 2005 - More than 20 mortars were fired from across the border. Cpl. Uzi Peretz of the Golani Brigade was killed and four soldiers wounded, including the unit's doctor. Fire was exchanged and helicopters and planes attacked five Hezbollah outposts in the Reches Ramim area.

24 Apr 2005 - Several explosive devices exploded near the Lebanese-Israeli border, in the Mount Dov area. Officials believe the devices were planted by Hezbollah, but this was not confirmed. No injuries were reported in the explosions.

7 Apr 2005 - Two Israeli-Arabs from the village of Rajar near the Israel-Lebanon border were kidnapped by Hezbollah operatives and held in captivity for four days. The men, identified as Muki Ben-Jamal and Nuef Maharj Ben-Ali, said they were interrogated by their captors who wanted information on Israel. They were later released. Israeli officials did not believe that any security information had been compromised.

9 Jan 2005 - An explosive device was detonated against an IDF patrol at Nahal Sion. One Israeli soldier was killed, and a UN officer was killed.

20 Jul 2004 - Hezbollah sniper fired at an IDF post in the western sector of the Israeli-Lebanese border. Two IDF soldiers were killed.

7 May 2004 - Fire in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Dennis Leminov was killed, and two other soldiers were severely wounded. The IDF returned fire.

19 Jan 2004 - An anti-tank missile was fired at IDF D9 while neutralizing explosive charges near Zari't. An IDF soldier, Yan Rotzenski, was killed and another soldier was severely wounded.

6 Oct 2003 - Staff Sgt. David Solomonov was killed when Hezbollah fired at an IDF force south of the =46atma Gate in the eastern sector. In addition, the Hezbollah fired missiles and rockets at an IDF post in the Reches Ramim area.

10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded.

20 Jul 2003 - Hezbollah snipers fired on an Israeli outpost near Chetula, killing two Israeli soldiers. The IDF retaliated with tank fire directed at a Hezbollah position, killing one operative manning the post. That night, there were multiple Israeli flights over Lebanon, two of which generated powerful sonic booms over Beirut.

7 May 2003 - Hezbollah attacked IDF positions in the Sheba' farms with heavy rocket, mortar, and small arms fire. One Israeli soldier was killed and five others were wounded in the attack. Lebanese authorities asserted that the Hezbollah firing had been preceded by an Israeli army foot patrol crossing the Blue Line.

5 May 2003 - A cycle of armed exchanges across the Blue Line began. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over the country. Subsequently, Hezbollah fired several anti-aircraft rounds with shrapnel landing inside Israel.

22 Mar 2003 - Hezbollah fired rockets and mortars at Israeli army positions in the Sheba' farms and adjacent areas. This attack followed eight incursions into Lebanese airspace by Israeli aircraft.

6 Jan 2003 - Hezbollah fired anti aircraft shells in the vicinity of Birait in the western sector of the Lebanese border. No one was hurt and no damage was caused.

29 Aug 2002 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Ofer Misali was killed, and two other soldiers were lightly wounded.

12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov.

7 Aug 2001 - Two houses belonging to senior members of the former Israeli-allied South Lebanon Army militia were blown up using explosive devices. One of the houses belonged to Robin Abboud; the other to Samir Raslan. Hezbollah is suspected.

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

14 Apr 2001 - Fire at an IDF post in the Mt. Dov sector. IDF soldier Elad Litvak was killed.

1 Apr 2001 - A 42 year-old Israeli woman was stabbed to death in Haifa. Her murder was the initiation rite of a terrorist cell, whose members were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder, originally thought to be criminally motivated, were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of one of the terrorists into the organization.

16 Feb 2001- Fire at an IDF convoy on Mt. Dov. IDF soldier Elad Shneor was killed, and three other soldiers were wounded.

26 Nov 2000 - A charge was detonated near an IDF convoy. IDF soldier Khalil Taher was killed and two other soldiers were wounded.

7 Oct 2000 - Kidnapping: Three IDF soldiers: Adi Avitan, Omer Soued and Binyamin Avraham were kidnapped by the Hezbollah from the Mt. Dov sector.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources: Ministry of Foreign Affairs; Ministry of Foreign Affairs Summary of Events; RAND Terrorism Database; The Institute for Counter-Terrorism; U.S. State Department Report on Human Rights Practices for 2004


http://www.aijac.org.au/resources/hezb_00-06.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Well...

:yourock:

[Igel]

2. Quite some peace there, isn't it?

Things were so much better, UNIFIL was working out soooo well.

[HongKonger]

82. For five prisoners, over 500 civilians killed and an infrastructure fucked

For five prisoners, over 500 civilians killed and an infrastructure wrecked

baltimorechronicle.com

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2006/072806KNIPP.shtml

[Igel]

86. Yep.

Nasrallah's said as much: civilian Lebanese casualties and warfare don't matter, he will not stop without a trade of prisoners.

Kuntar's an ethnic hero for bashing in a girl's head. Odd, how we choose our heroes.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. Facts are a funny thing, aren't they?

;)

[smacky44]

37. How did you manage to include 2000-2006 AFTER Isarel invaded?

the fournalist was reporting on 2001-up to when Israel invaded Lebanon in July 2006.
And it's always a "Hezbollah-linked Palestinian group" your information cites. This certainly doesn't mean an actual Hzezbollah group. It's a way that Israel always IDs their enemies to get the most spin. They are always "suspected terrorists" "Hamas-linked" "supected PLO militant" and in many cases the dead are found to be innocent civilians. The record shows that usually when one of these so-called "terrorists" carries out an attack of any kind they usually own up to it.

[Ms. Clio]

78. yes, that's quite an interesting little bit of sleight-of-hand

and the source is no more to be trusted than U.S sources that claim big kills of "Taliban" in Afghanistan or Iraqi "insurgents." As when the soldiers (and possibly their higher-ups) flat-out lied about the massacre in Haditha and the rape and murder of Abeer al-Janabi and the slaughter of her family.

[stepnw1f]

3. An Eye for an Eye

as long as I don't have to die. :eyes:

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. The data source for that 'bullshit thread'

Is http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

In their list, covering June 25, 2006 through October 28, 2001, Hezbollah is mentioned exactly once as a possible suspect in one "Major Terrorist Attack". Other than your say so, in what sense is the information published by the ADL bullshit?

Or more to the point, why does the ADL hate Israel, and when did they become terrorist sympathizers?

[Master Mahon]

33. And speaking about Palestinians...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and
763 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
1,084 Israelis and 4,126 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 2000
7,633 Israelis and 30,563 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

[cracksquirrel]

38. Or not speaking about Palestinians...

Since this thread is about Hezbollah / Lebanon.

[Master Mahon]

45. It was referring to

Msg #5 (deleted) and now #30

[BillZBubb]

6. Big list, very few kills. Nice propaganda work though.

I particularly like that the list includes deaths after the Israeli's began bombing inside Lebanon. Counting deaths after the hostilities began in support of starting the hostilities is great chutzpah. Nice touch!

Why don't you edit the list to include ACTUAL deaths pre-Lebanon bombing by Israel. Maybe you might even get people to listen instead of laugh at the blatant propaganda.

The Israeli response to the initial provocation is way out of proportion and has in many instances been criminal.

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. see post 5. This is response to a thread based on LIES. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

35. About those lies.

The source is: http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp

In the ADL's list, covering June 25, 2006 through October 28, 2001, Hezbollah is mentioned exactly once as a possible suspect in one "Major Terrorist Attack". Other than your say so, in what sense is the information published by the ADL lies?

Or more to the point, why does the ADL hate Israel, and when did they become terrorist sympathizers?

[Behind the Aegis]

40. .

:eyes:

[The Magistrate]

46. By Definition, Sir

A list of "major" attacks is not a list of all attacks. A list, too, that focised on "terrorist" attacks might well be using a sensible definition, and omit engagements with military forces, even if these resulted in deaths. Engagements with military forces, though legitimate in a useful sense, are hardly peaceable, and represent cause for war by any standard generally employed.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. Indeed Hezbollah has engaged the IDF primarily.

But that would not make it a terrorist organization, it would instead make it a guerrilla militia engaged in a classic guerrilla war with the IDF.

The assertion has been made repeatedly that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that has been involved repeatedly and primarily in attacks on Israeli civilians. This claim is repeated in various forms as justification for the Israeli terror campaign against Lebanese civilians.

The facts on the other hand seem to be that Hezbollah has primarily engaged in military attacks against military targets. The incident that led to the current indefensible Israeli over-response was a case in point: a military clash in the volatile border area. How that incident justifies the massive terror campaign undertaken by the IDF is a mystery that a few very hard working posters here have been attempting to clear up by, for example, claiming that information about terror attacks in Israel published by the ADL of all groups, is bullshit.

[cracksquirrel]

51. By your logic:

The IRA is not a terrorist organization because it primarily targeted British soldiers and government facilities, while every now and them maybe blowing up innocent civilians.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. That may be correct.

As the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[eridani]

80. So, why didn't the Brits level Dublin?

Or for that matter, Boston, where quite a bit of funding came from?

[The Magistrate]

57. You Will Not Have Seen That Description From Me, Sir

The term "terrorist" is quite useless as a descriptor, since it really means only violence of which the utter disapprovesm to judge from its actual usage.

But a state has every right to seek to rid itself of a guerrilla organization operating against its borders, particularly when it has been doing so over a period of years, and has built up an extensive arsenal capable of menacing its civilian populace. Where that organization operates in the territory of another state, and forms in fact an essentially independent sub-state within it, taking the destruction of that organization for a military object will necessarily involve a good deal of destruction and death in the state that has been unable to control that organization.

The over-riding fact remains that none of this would be going on today had Hezbollah not chosen to attack the patrol along the border a couple of weeks ago.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

85. Somehow this snip reminds me of what we face here in America

Mr. Magistrate,

Some, here, might consider the Bushies/NeoCon/Armageddonists a guerrilla organization operating within and against our Constitutional borders. I guess we Democrats could also expect "..a good deal of destruction and death.." (metaphorically) because we have not been able to control that "organization of Bushies/NeoCon/Armageddonists." We suffer because we cannot control it no matter what we've done. :eyes: Just taking what you say a step further.

Quote from you:

But a state has every right to seek to rid itself of a guerrilla organization operating against its borders, particularly when it has been doing so over a period of years, and has built up an extensive arsenal capable of menacing its civilian populace. Where that organization operates in the territory of another state, and forms in fact an essentially independent sub-state within it, taking the destruction of that organization for a military object will necessarily involve a good deal of destruction and death in the state that has been unable to control that organization.

[hfojvt]

87. that is not an over-riding fact

because the patrol would not have been attacked if Israel had not chosen to shell Gaza. And Gaza would not have been shelled if Hamas had not chosen to kidnap an Israeli soldier, and Hamas would not have kidnapped an Israeli soldier if Israel had not chosen ...

There are choices all along this path and each side wants to blame the other for its decisions causing our retaliation. In the OP's list, what is left out is that EVERY single Hezbollah action was a RESPONSE to an Israeli action and that for EVERY Israeli casualty there were at least as many on the other side (and of course, every Israeli action was a response to the last Hezbollah action). But the equation changes if Hezbollah is no longer a terrorist organization, but a guerilla force.

Israel's counter-attacks are not inevitable in the way a burned hand is inevitable if you put your hand on a hot stove. They are choices. Unfortunately, neither Israel nor the US is choosing peace.

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. This is about HEZBOLLAH, NOT Hamas. See thread title.

THIS thread is to point out the LIE posted here: Be sure to read THAT thread title also.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. So what. The title of the thread this is in response to is:

"Unspoken Fact: No Israelis Killed by Hezbollah 01/2001-07/2006"

A baldfaced LIE. MANY Israelis have died. ALL after Israel pulled out of Lebanon mind you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Not enough dead Israelis for you?

[cracksquirrel]

17. Obviously not

Everyone complains about this conflict being disproportionate... I just wish it was disproportionate in that more Hezbollah fighters were killed than IDF or Israeli civilians.

But you have to wonder: if Hezbollah DID have better, more accurate weapons, and more Israeli civilians were being killed, then what would DU look like?

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. I know EXACTLY what DU would look like, but

can't say it here because it would be deleted.:(

Notice the silence to the question about "not enough dead Israelis?"

[ThomCat]

73. Because it was a pointless smear.

It doesn't warrent an answer.

The only people who seem to want more deaths are the people who think Israel is justified in killing people. Everyone else is appauled at the deaths, and wants both sides to stop.

The big disagreement seems to be whether only the Arab factions should be stopped, or if Israel should be stopped too.

[Lefty48197]

54. ...and that's EXACTLY why we can't let those nuts have laserguided rockets

Can you imagine the carnage if Hizbollah had tanks, bombers, and fighter jets? I wonder if the Hizbollah apologists would still be thinking of them as choir boys?

[Master Mahon]

62. Yes, It might look like this

like lebanon does

[Lefty48197]

69. Ok. So now I know that you support Hizbollah and their decades long

campaign to wipe out Israel and all of the Israeli's, right?

[Ms. Clio]

71. what "decades?" Hezbollah formed in the 1980s in response to the

first Israeli invasion. The lack of any historical knowledge here simply grows tiresome.

[ThomCat]

74. So now we know that you support Israeli colonialism

and terror, right?

[LynnTheDem]

90. So I'm "anti-American" because I disagree with everything bush does

and has done?

If a DUer doesn't support Israel's government's actions, that means we support Hezbollah?

Wait...is this really DU???

[CuteNFuzzy]

55. now waitaminnit

I've never come across a post indicating that amBushed is in favor of dead Israelis.

Can you show me one?

[Behind the Aegis]

60. I didn't say he favored it...

...I implied that because the number was not higher, that their deaths are not as important to him.

[NuttyFluffers]

83. please, BtA, this wasn't very nice...

it's a backhanded allegation/insult, and i respect you more than that. please, i've seen you want to prevent abusiveness for the past several days, but do not indulge in it yourself. it undoes the effort. if you need to chill for a while there's other boards to relax in.

[LynnTheDem]

84. Your favorite reply...

:eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

88. and yours...

no substance

[LynnTheDem]

89. No substance whatsoever.

But hey, it's your right to :eyes: all you like.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. When I see your responses to me...

...I generally do :eyes:. Sometimes I respond, sometimes it is so pointless...why bother.

[smacky44]

29. I was about to point this out but you beat me to it. Nice work.

[Lefty48197]

53. Hizbollah's "initial provocation" has been going on for thirty f*cking yrs

"initial provocation" my ass. They've been murdering people for decades.

[Warren Stupidity]

76. Try some facts.

"Scholars differ as to when Hezbollah came to be a distinct entity. Some organizations list the official formation of the group as early as 1982 <19> whereas Diaz and Newman maintain that Hezbollah remained an amalgamation of various violent Shi’a extremists until as late as 1985".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Origins

I know that 30 is just as good a number as 21 or 24, but it is not an accurate number with respect to the age of Hezbollah.

Now of course we have the 'murdering people for decades' part. If you include military actions against occupation forces as 'murdering people', then yes indeed that has been Hezbollah's militia's primary function. One could of course say that the IDF has been 'murdering people for decades', in fact for several more decades than Hezbollah has been in the killing business. Then again killing people is what military organizations do.

So do you include Hezbollah's military campaign against the IDF while the IDF was occupying Lebanon in your accounting for the decades of murder?

[Ignoramus]

8. Unrecognized fact: Lebanon isn't Hezbollah

Killing Lebanese, and destroying their country, because Israelis were killed by people who were members of Hezbollah, is killing innocent Lebanese.

If you shoot my sister, so I shoot your neighbor's son, I'm not justified in using defense as an excuse.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. again, see post 5 n/t

[Ignoramus]

26. Fair enough

Understood.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. OK...thanks.

:hi:

[Minnesota Libra]

15. One unrecognized FACT here...............

....a person/organization/country is responsible for what goes on inside their four walls/borders. So that means that indeed Lebanon IS RESPONSIBLE for what Hezbollah does from inside Lebanese borders.

[Ignoramus]

22. That is just plain wrong

At what point during the birth process does the infant become responsible?
If you are in a coma, are you responsible?
If you are mentally retarded, are you responsible?

What constitutes being responsible?

You are expressing an idea that is authoritarian.

[The Magistrate]

47. It Is Not Plain Wrong, Sir

The government of a state is responsible for hostile acts carried out from its territory against the soldiers and citizens of another state. It is the duty of the government of a state to prevent any group but its own armed forces from making such attacks against another state from its sovereign territory. If it does not, the state attacked has every right to take steps to end the attacks, which can range from local military action right up to formal declaration of war against the state in which the attackers reside and operate.

[Minnesota Libra]

61. Thank you nt

[jayfish]

42. Why Did We Invade Afghanistan Then?

By your logic we are responsible for 9/11. We should probably be bombing ourselves.

Jay

[Lefty48197]

59. True, but it's Syria's fault that Lebanon doesn't have a stable Gov't

They occupied Lebanon for years. Then, early this year, Syria killed Lebanon's leader. I think there should be repercussions directed at Syria.

[Nabia2004]

77. I thought the Israeli Mossad killed former Lebanese prime minister Hariri

Who Killed Rafiq Hariri?
Speculation Focuses on Syria and Its Surrogates

By Jefferson Morley
washingtonpost.com Staff
Wednesday, February 16, 2005

-snips-

Yesterday, the Israeli daily reported that while most analysts "agreed that Syria was the obvious culprit because of Hariri's calls for its withdrawal, killing him does more harm than good for Syria.

"It's totally illogical that Syria would do it," said Prof. Eyal Zisser, a Syria expert at the Dayan Institute for Middle East Studies at Tel Aviv University. "It would be such a stupid move on their part. Everyone is watching them and they don't want to destabilize Lebanon."

-more-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A29296-2005Feb16?language=printer

[ThomCat]

75. When does Israel get held responsible for all the people

they are imprisoning without charges, killing without reason, all the homes they are destroying, and that wall they are building?

[Lefty48197]

56. That's the cruel fact about war.

Innocent people die. That's why the world needs leaders who will only turn to war if it's absolutely necessary. Hizbollah has proven time and time again that they will kill Israelis at any given opportunity. That's why Israel was FORCED to declare war on the murderous animals that are hiding among the Lebanese citizens.

[Minnesota Libra]

9. Thank you for this information, I hope some here................

....at least reads it and realizes that there are two sides to this whole Middle East issue.

[smacky44]

34. We do and still this does not negate the post this was responding to.

The deaths of Israelis cited were AFTER Israel invaded Lebanon. Until then, no Israel casualty was by hizbollah attack.

[The Magistrate]

49. Actually, Ma'am

Cursory examination of the list shows at least ten Israeli soldiers killed on the border prior to the present episode....

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftCoast]

11. Why is Israel basing it's morality on the actions of Hezbollah?

Just because Hezbollah does it doesn't make it right.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Who said they are basing their morality on Hezbollah's actions? They just

want Hezbollah to stop the attacks, killings and kidnappings and recognize Israel as a state.

Is Israel suppose to just accept these attacks, killings and kidnappings? Is that right to expect Israel to actually do that?

[LeftCoast]

44. Uh, hello? You're the one who posted this in response to the listing of

all the Lebanese civillians killed by Israel. If you're not trying to justify Israel's actions by way of Hezbollah, what are you saying?

Even in this lates post you imply the same by asking "Is Israel suppose to just accept these attacks, killings and kidnappings?"

[WhollyHeretic]

66. Uh, hello? It was in response to this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1755758&mesg_id=1755758

[in_cog_ni_to]

94. Please read the title of this thread...here's a link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

[azurnoir]

13. Is there a similar

list detailing and personalizing each and every Palestinian,Lebanese,Hezbollah,Hamas, or other terrorist death caused by the IDF protecting Israel, a comparison would be most interesting.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. see post 5 and we're talking about Hezbollah . n/t

[cracksquirrel]

18. Classic

The classic "ooh look over there!" defense.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. And boy, have I seen a lot of that lately

from apologists for Israel's state terror.

[cracksquirrel]

28. Quick, the goodyear blimp!

Right, so now that we've firmly established that EVERYONE here is in the middle of a huge, steaming pile of crap, can we stop accusing eachother of smelling like crap and find some place to clean off?

[Vinnie From Indy]

20. If I am not mistaken,

there was no Hezbollah group until the Israeli's invaded Lebanon in 1982.

I am completely behind the idea that the Israeli Govt. has a right and a duty to defend itself and it's citizens from attacks regardless of the origin of the attack, but I am not willing to condone EVERY action taken by the Israeli government. Collective punishment NEVER works. It appears to me that the Israeli's WANT to escalate the hatred in the Middle East. I know BushCo does because it makes them oceans money and distracts the masses from the disaster of Iraq.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. see post 5 please. Thanks. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. I have to leave people so I can't hang with this thread. Have fun!

:hi:

[cracksquirrel]

31. Byee!

Don't bother checking back, it's probably not gonna get any prettier...

[Truthiness Inspector]

24. Thanks for posting this n/t

[MadAsHellNewYorker]

32. Just an FYI: The Oct. 7, 2000 kidnapping ended with the murder of all 3

soldiers.

thanks for this thread.

[cracksquirrel]

39. Shhh!

Legitimate resistence... occupation, er, well they pulled out of Lebanon... but colonist oppressors!

[John Q. Citizen]

36. So what's the score? Is Israel winning or is Hezbollah in the lead? n/t

[cracksquirrel]

41. Nah

Still zero-zero. I'm afraid this one's going into penalty kicks... just watch out for those headbuts!

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. This is in response to another thread. Here's a link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

[Beacho]

43. So when mexican gangsters killed that DEA agent

We would have been justified in bombing the crap out of Ciudad Juarez? What's the exchange rate of brown people vs more worthy light skins?

1:20? 1:50? 1:100?

At what point does it become excessive?

BTW, there is a third choice between "Us" or "Them", and that would be "None Of The Above".

[durrrty libby]

48. Oh my ….....tit for tat with death. That is horrific

The ultimate goal should be peace and Americans should be demanding it, rather than playing sick counting dead body games.

We are all diminished as human beings as long as these

horrific acts continue, and that of course includes the never ending slaughter

of innocent Iraqis.


I watched an amazing video today on the despicable reporting of our media on these matters

It is something else.


http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me1.html

[cracksquirrel]

52. That video is crap

If Israel is perpetrating genocide, then they're obviously REALLY bad at it, looking at the population figures in the Palestinian territories.

[sistersofmercy]

68. I watched the video and I can't recall it being about genocide but

rather the American media filter towards the atrocious treatment and displacement of the palestinians. Perhaps you should trying watching the entire video. It's very good and makes valid points in the debate.

[durrrty libby]

72. I agree...

We know the media does not report fairly,

but seeing it laid out proves we have no hope of ever getting

the truth

It was a real eye opener in other areas as well

Really heartbreaking


:cry:

[Ms. Clio]

79. somehow you know that without even seeing it

since it only took you 6 minutes to post a response to the link.

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. This is in response to THIS thread...link. Please read the thread TITLE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1755758

[mom cat]

58. Check this out:

Shin Bet Vetoed Secret Israeli-Palestinian Peace Agreement
Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:49:07 -0700reprehensor
R195926
2 hours ago PRESS RELEASE
Drafted by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, Department of International Relations, University of Sussex
For immediate release 28.7.06
SHIN BET VETOED SECRET ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN PEACE AGREEMENT
Israeli and Palestinian Sources Concur: Israel Made War Inevitable
The Omega Institute (OI), which works closely with the Institute for Policy Research for Development (IPRD), has learned from Israeli and Palestinian sources that just prior to the current crisis, senior Hamas leaders were in active dialogue with Israeli religious leaders in a round of bilateral peace negotiations. Israeli negotiators included Rabbi Menachem Froman, former deputy leader and co-founder of the Israeli Settler movement Gush Khatif; Rabbi David Bigman, head of the liberal religious Kibbutz movement Yeshiva at Ma’ale Gilboa; and Yitzhak Frankenthal, founder of the Arik Institute. Ongoing negotiations had resulted in a breakthrough peace “understanding”, which was to be announced at a press conference in Jerusalem to mark the launching of an extraordinary peace initiative. Israeli Prime Minister Olmert had been briefed extensively about the initiative by Frankenthal. Also due to attend the conference were Khaled Abu Arafa, the Palestinian Cabinet Minister for Jerusalem, Sheikh Muhamed Abu Tir, senior Hamas Member of the Palestinian Parliament, and other senior Palestinian delegates.
The meeting was to announce a joint Israeli-Palestinian call for the release of Corporal Gilad Shalit who had been abducted by Hamas in Gaza, along with proposals for the beginning of the release of all Palestinian prisoners. These measures were to precipitate unprecedented new peace negotiations on a framework peace agreement, drawn on the 1967 borders. The presence of Palestinian Cabinet Officers and senior Israeli religious leaders in contact with the Prime Minster was to underline the seriousness of this peace proposal on both sides.
Just hours before the meeting was due to start, the Israeli Shin Bet internal Security Service arrested Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting, under threats of detention. The meeting, which offered a major opportunity to obtain Shalit’s release and launch a new framework for peace, was thrown into disarray. The next day, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) invaded Gaza, and the day after both Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were abducted by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Palestinian Cabinet, provoking a predictable escalation of violence.
Israel simultaneously began conducting covert incursions on to Lebanese territory, provoking Hizbollah’s capture of two IDF soldiers. Credible sources confirm that the soldiers were not abducted on Israeli territory, but inside Lebanon. Like the scuppered peace negotiations, Western officials have ignored this, and misinformed the media. However, some reports corroborate the sources. Israeli officials, for instance, informed Forbes (12.7.06) that “Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel.”
“The revelations show that Palestinian and Lebanese actors were not principally responsible for the escalation of the current conflict”, said OI Director Graham Ennis. “Contrary to the misinformation disseminated by the Whitehouse and Whitehall, Israel vetoed unprecedented peace proposals that would have initiated a promising new framework for serious negotiations, and went on to provoke Palestinian and Lebanese groups into retaliations, that now threaten to escalate into a dangerous regional conflict.”
For more information please contact
[phone] UK number, US callers; omit the zero (0)
or email: [e-mail]

[Zhade]

63. And this justifies ISRAEL killing innocent civilians how...?

NT!

[oberliner]

65. it doesn't

I think it is just an attempt to refute the statement of this post:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1755758&mesg_id=1755758

[in_cog_ni_to]

97. Yes indeed.

That thread is a lie. Read the TITLE of the thread.

[allemand]

70. "Mt. Dov sector" = Shebaa Farms n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

98. Several Points

Prior to the current hostilities, almost all of those killed are military.

Here are the exceptions:

1. 10 Aug 2003 - Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon. Four others were wounded. According to the Jerusalem Post, he was "the first Israeli civilian to be killed as a direct result of Hizbullah shelling since the IDF's withdrawal from South Lebanon in May 2000,..." Since no additional civilians enter your list prior to current hostilities, he is also presumably the ONLY civilian to be killed by Hezbollah shelling prior to July 2006. Is this not accurate?

2. 12 Mar 2002 - Infiltration: In a shooting attack on the Shlomi- Metzuba route. Six Israelis civilians were killed, among them IDF officer Lt. German Rojkov. Here is a full description of this event, from the Institute for Counter-Terrorism. As you can see, there is certainly a good deal of question whether Hezbollah was actually involved in any formal way.

3. (We'll combine the last two killings, since they are related:

28 Apr 2001 - A 60 year-old Israeli man was found stabbed to death in Kfar Ba'aneh, near Carmiel in Galilee. The terrorists responsible for the attack were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of the organization.

1 Apr 2001 - A 42 year-old Israeli woman was stabbed to death in Haifa. Her murder was the initiation rite of a terrorist cell, whose members were apprehended in July. Six members of a Hezbollah-linked Palestinian terrorist cell responsible for the murder, originally thought to be criminally motivated, were arrested in July. The murder was the initiation rite of one of the terrorists into the organization.

OK. So, two Israeli civilians stabbed to death in Haifa. By "Hezbollah-linked" terrorists, according to your list's author. But the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs calls the connection with Hezbollah only apparent, and none of the six cell members arrested are listed by the ministry as having any organizational affiliation with Hezbollah (none are from Lebanon, either):

During the course of the investigation, six residents of the territories illegally living in Israel were arrested. The six are:

# Abd el Rahman Hassan Mahmoud Washah - Former Black Panther member, resident of Araba/Misgav (illegally) - Originally from Boureij/Gaza.

# Mowafak Hassan Mahmoud Washah - Former Black Panther member, resident of Araba/Misgav (illegally) - Originally from Boureij/Gaza.

# Muhammed Salah Rashid Oudeh - No organizational affiliation - Resident of Maarna Jenin.

# Omar Mahmoud Ahmed Hamel - No organizational affiliation - Resident of Bardala/Dotan.

# Ahmed Housein Jomaah abu Zied - No organizational affiliation - Resident of Jericho.

# Samer Mousa Ramadan Ramadan - No organizational affiliation - Resident of Jericho.

It should be noted that there are at lease four more members of the cell in hiding in Palestinian Authority territory.

The six were recruited to the "Omar el Mukhtar" cell. The objective of the cell was to commit murders and attacks within the Green Line. The creation of the cell can be attributed to the environment of the last months - as part of the Palestinian efforts to attack Israeli and Jewish targets.

The cell was directed by a Jordanian to perpetrate attacks. The Jordanian was apparently connected with Hizbullah.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2001/ISA+and+Israel+police+solve+murders+and+arrest+par.htm

-------------------------------------------

So, in terms of Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah prior to the beginning of the current hostilities, we have one killed by shelling (weirdly, an "anti-aircraft shell"), five killed by a couple of lunatics firing at anything on the road (and no confirmation that these two were Hezbollah), and two stabbed by a terror cell in Haifa, all the members of which are Palestinians from within Israel and the occupied territories, and none of whom - according to the Israeli government - have any organizational affiliation with Hezbollah. That's eight civilians. That's YOUR list. Now, don't go accuse me of minimizing their deaths. And don't accuse me of supporting Hezbollah. I do neither. If anything, I'm surprised by this list, primarily because I thought many more murders of Israeli civilians could be attributed to Hezbollah. From your list, it looks like Israel and Hezbollah were fighting a primarily MILITARY low-intensity border war, of the kind that are seen throughout the world. As far as I can tell, from YOUR list, Hezbollah's targets have been primarily military prior to the current hostilities, or at least their successful hits. Do you have some information that would dispute this assessment?

[akushuki]

99. Thank You!

We needed a nice compilation like this.