In defense of Israel...

[BayCityProgressive]

I have read many posts here calling Israel "Zionist" "Nazis" and "evil" so I really felt some of this needed to be said. There is no doubt Israel shares much blame in the current conflict and has many terrible faults (just as the rest of the world's nations do) however please consider the following as well. I support Israel and I find many many things to fault it on. I would also say that bombing Beirut is counterproductive to Israel because it will only increase hatred towards the Jewish people and it is counterproductive for Lebanon because it is damaging a fledgling democracy and could topple the democratic government.

The thing I have a problem with is that many groups on the left did not condemn the Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel that have been happening for months without provocation or the kidknapping of Israeli soldiers on the Israeli side of the border, however, the second Israel responded Israel faced condemnation.

Saying criticism of Israel is anti-semitic is wrong, any country should be scrutinized, however criticizing Isreal more than other nations in similar circumstances just because it is Israel is anti-semitic. Some like to use the excuse that Israel has nothing to do with Judaism but that is flattly untrue. The whole point of founding Israel was to make a home where Jews could be safe and live among one another in peace. No civilization on Earth had ever given Jews equal rights at the time that Israel was formed, so there was good reason for Zionism and the creation of Israel. Many radicals have deformed the meaning of Zionism. Zionsim simply means creating a homeland where Jews would not be persecuted( the concept was created by Herzl, a socialist in the 1800's).

Jews make up 80% of Israel, the Star of David is the nations symbol, ONLY JEWS are forced to join the military (although many Arab Israeli's and Christians volunteer), and only Jews abide by Jewish traditional laws. Any Jew in the world is allowed to emigrate to Israel to avoid persecution, as 250,000 have done to escape extreme repression in the former Soviet Union since the 90's. So there is no question that this is a Jewish state (the only Jewish state) and is interwoven with Judaism and the Jewish people both in Israel and in the diaspora ( the dispersed Jewish population throughout the world.)The state is also democratic and secular. It allows all religions to practice freely and Muslims even have their own religious courts for issues such as divorce and education. During the formation of Israel, Cuba and the Soviet Union both supported the state because almost all of its founders were avowed socialists. The nation has socialized medicine, universal pre-school to college education and the highest standard of living in the entire Middle East.

It is fact that although there is prejudice and racism in Israel (as there is here) Arabs who live in Israel have longer life expectancy and lead healthier and more educated and higher paid lives than in any other nation in the middle east. IN 2001 a poll by an independant organization was taken asking Israeli Arabs if they would rather live in an independant Palestine or Israel and 82% said Israel and the number one reason was because they enjoyed their quality of life. The number two reason is because they loved Israeli democracy.


Much is made of the US ISraeli alliance, however no one likes to point out that the US gives foreign aid to many governments in the region and world not just Israel. Israel needs a strong military because most of the nations and even the palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist. These nations are openly calling for the destruction of Israel ( a UN member state) which should be apalling to all internationalists.

Israel has proven that it will trade land for peace. They offered Palestine , in line with UN resolutions, 96% of the pre-1967 borders and 30 billion dollars in aid for a peace treaty and a recognition for a Jewish state to exist in Israel and Arafat answered that by saying no and launching more terror attacks, so who is the real murderer and oppressor here? Israel has also given every inch of land back to Egypt and Jordan as soon as they signed peace treaties with Israel. These nations have had peaceful relations since. Israel is also at the forfront of racial, womens, and gay rights in the Middle East (their gay rights laws are more stringent than US laws, domestic partnerships are allowed and gays are not banned from the military). Many Arabs have sought refuge in Israel because in their home countries they would be executed for this "crime". The Israeli media is HIGHLY critical of the state and protests are allowed for any issue-including protests against the Jewish state itself. I challenge anyone to point to another Middle Eastern country that allows these rights to it's people. There isn't one.

Also, if you want to side with a real underdog look at Israel, the size of New Jersey with only 6 million inhabitants surrounded by nations who don't recognize it's existance. Jews are not only a religious group but also a cultural and ethnic group, so these nations around it are basically declaring their support for genocide against an entire group of people. Israel has no natural resources including no oil. This gives Europe and other nations plenty of cause to rally against Israel. What profit can they make form Israel---a lot less than from Iran and others, Israel has nothing to offer them. The Israeli court is also one of the most liberal in the world. It has ruled that not only is torture illegal but even using tactics such as sleep deprevation are against human rights. A far cry from the US. On the flip side, Israel also has a Patriot Act style law that allows them to hold people without charges--this law should be repealed and anyone without charges against them should be released. It is important to note however, that most nations in the world have similar laws on the books, including most of Europe.

It is true that at this popint Hezbollah can inflict only minor casualty figures in Israel but their goal is clearly the destruction of Israel and all Jews. They have stated this repeatedly. Don't think for a second if Iran and Syria gave them more powerful weapons they wouldn't use them. Imagine if Mexico allowed a militant group to control the border and lob missiles into New Mexico and California, then came across the border and kidnapped some border patrol officers...what do you think the reaction of the American people would be? It is no excuse to say that Lebanon can't control the militants in the south. If it cannot control it's own borders it should sede the south to Hezbollah, not give them a nationwide political party. When Israel formed it also had militant groups and the first Prime Minister, Ben-Gurion, destroyed them. Lebanon should do the same. That being said, I think a massive bombing of Lebanon only creates more problems. The south should be invaded and Hezbollah pushed back. A multinational peace force should then patrol the border, however no one seems to be rushing in to do this. The UN has already tried this once and it failed miserably. I just want to show you a few things that prominent Palestinian and Hezbollah leaders have said regarding Israel to show you what Israel is dealing with.

Also keep in mind that a recent poll showed that 87% of Palestinians thought that suicide bombings should continue until all of Israel is "returned" to Palestine. Also remember that Palestine supports something each year called Al Nakba (the great catastrophe) where they mourn the creation of a Jewish state and tell their children that Jews drink the blood of Arab children (great bedtime story).

the Hamas charter condemns Jordan and Egypt for making peace with Israel and condemns the PLO for being secular. Here is a heart warming piece from their party charter:

"Israel, by being Jewish and having a Jewish population, defiled Islam and the Muslims. Jews are to blame for the French and Russion revolutions, World Wars 1 and 2, the creation of the United Nations in order to rule the world, The Lions Clubs, Rotary Club, Freemasons, and other secret organizations act for the interests of Zionism and under it's directions aim to destroy societies and distribute drugs and toxins of all kinds to facillitate it's control."

"People all over the world have come to realize that Hitler was right, since Jews . . . are bloodsuckers . . . interested in destroying the whole world which has . . . expelled them and despised them for centuries ... and burnt them in Hitler's crematoria ... one million ... six millions. Would that he had finished it!"
Anis Mansour, Al-Akhbar, August 19, 1973.

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."
Yasser Arafat, then head of the PLO and PA President - Private speech entitled "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel", Stockholm, Sweden, January 30, 1996

"The Jews seek to conquer the world...We must expose the Zionist-Colonialist plot and its goals, which destroy not only our people but the entire world."Abdel Jawad Saleh, PA Minister of Agriculture, Al-Hayat Al-Jadidah on Nov. 6, 1997



"Regardless of the logic of conspiracy, I would like to say something. We read history, and we know that since The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Zionism has forged the New Testament – and by now, 60 million in the U.S. alone have left Christianity to become believers in the Torah.

"Global Zionism has tried to forge the Holy Koran, and has printed many copies of this forgery. It has been discovered that many extremist movements were backed by ."
Ret. Lebanese General Hisham Jaber, July 11, 2005 Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV

"The English Historian David Irving's description of the so-called Jewish Holocaust by the Nazis in gas chambers as a big lie was enough to shake the foundations of Europe and turn Irving into a target for a campaign of slander..."
Al-Ba'ath (Syria), February 7, 2000

"The Holocaust is exploited to justify the Zionist policies and to justify the enemy state's right to exist. There is evidence, and scientific research, that prove the Holocaust is a lie. "
Dr. Ibrahim 'Alloush Al-Jazeera TV on August 23, 2005

The accusation that Jews slaughter children to make ritual baked goods is usually confined to Passover. However, in 2003, this article was offered by a Saudi government newspaper, al-Riyadh:

Special Ingredient For Jewish Holidays is Human Blood From Non-Jewish Youth
"I chose to about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."
.... ..
How the Jews Drain the Blood From Their Young Victims
"Who was Esther, and why the Jews sanctify her and act as she did, I will clarify in my article next Tuesday,<2> Allah willing. Today, I would like to tell you how human blood is spilled so it can be used for their holiday pastries. The blood is spilled in a special way. How is it done?"

"For this holiday, the victim must be a mature adolescent who is, of course, a non-Jew – that is, a Christian or a Muslim. His blood is taken and dried into granules. The cleric blends these granules into the pastry dough; they can also be saved for the next holiday. In contrast, for the Passover slaughtering, about which I intend to write one of these days, the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used, and the cleric can mix the blood before or after dehydration."

The Actions of the Jewish Vampires Cause Them Pleasure
"Let us now examine how the victims' blood is spilled. For this, a needle-studded barrel is used; this is a kind of barrel, about the size of the human body, with extremely sharp needles set in it on all sides. pierce the victim's body, from the moment he is placed in the barrel."

"These needles do the job, and the victim's blood drips from him very slowly. Thus, the victim suffers dreadful torment – torment that affords the Jewish vampires great delight as they carefully monitor every detail of the blood-shedding with pleasure and love that are difficult to comprehend."

"After this barbaric display, the Jews take the spilled blood, in the bottle set in the bottom , and the Jewish cleric makes his coreligionists completely happy on their holiday when he serves them the pastries in which human blood is mixed."

"There is another way to spill the blood: The victim can be slaughtered as a sheep is slaughtered, and his blood collected in a container. Or, the victim's veins can be slit in several places, letting his blood drain from his body."

"This blood is very carefully collected – as I have already noted – by the 'rabbi,' the Jewish cleric, the chef who specializes in preparing these kinds of pastries."

"The human race refuses even to look at the Jewish pastries, let alone prepare them or consume them!"<3>

Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma, "The Jewish Holiday of Purim," Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), March 10, 2002

The day will come and we shall rule America The day will come and we shall rule Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews. The Jews will not live under our rule agreeably permanently, since they have been treacherous in nature throughout history. A day will come when all shall rest from the Jews, even the tree and the stone, which have suffered from them. Listen to your Beloved , who tells you about the most dire end of the Jews. The tree and the stone want the Muslim to bring every Jew to his end. You all know the Hadith." Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris, Friday Sermon, PA TV,

Jewish tourists infected with AIDS are traveling around Asian and African countries with the aim of spreading the disease."

Husniya Hassan Moussa, lecturer at the National Research Center, Al Ilm (Egypt) November, 2001

there are thousands more where these came from. Add to this the president of Iran calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map, or at least move to Europe." He has also denied the Holocaust and repeatedly threatened the state of Israel.

[cali]

1. I won't read your post until

you break it up into the appropriate paragraphs, and you shouldn't expect anyone to,.

[papau]

4. I skimmed the 4 long paragraph intro - but found the Hamas charter &

and Arab leader quotes disgusting - the Arab speakers/writers are the new Nazi's if they really believe that crap.

[Scurrilous]

9. I could do a similar thread...

...with equally repulsive quotes from various Israeli and Jewish figures. Trust me...no group is immune from bigotry and stupidity.

[cracksquirrel]

16. Sure, there's Israeli bigortry

The OP covered that in a sufficient manner. However, I doubt you'll be able to find ANYTHING of that sickening degree of hatred and revulsion pulished in mainstream Israeli or Western presses. Those things are in Arab organizational charters, and spouted on satelite news stations and holiday specials. There is no equivalence here.

[ProgressiveCritic]

193. Why historic increases in Israeli settlement expansion

during the "peace process" if Israel was so dedicated to exchanging land for peace?

Actions speak way louder than words, my friend.

[cali]

20. and there have been

many, many posts from that perspective, though I must say I've found with a little searching, that a lot of those quotes were fake. Nevertheless, despicable things have been said on both sides, though these are particularly colorful.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Have At It.. I'm Very, Very Doubtful

Go ahead and find it - I've never, ever seen a call for all Muslims to be killed throughout the world, as you claim, other than possibly on fringe-right US sites. When you post your finds, please post the position of the person you've quoted.

This is yet another example of straining to find moral equivalence - moral equivalence that dosn't exist.

[Emit]

184. Question about moral equivalence

When attempting to find moral equivalence in this matter, on the whole, are we to do so between all Muslims v all Jews? Or should we only be comparing those in each group who want to kill each other?

[liberalhistorian]

55. That's for sure. Some of the statements of early Zionists

regarding the Arabs that were "in their way" are quite similar to some of the disgusting, hateful statements posted by the OP. Neither side has clean hands, as far as I'm concerned.

[cigsandcoffee]

61. Do you have a link for those?

I think it would be a valuable comparison, especially if times and dates are recorded.

[MannyGoldstein]

64. Don't Hold Your Breath

I don't think that there's anything along the lines of what the House of Saud is claiming, e.g. drinking the blood of children. Or Hezbollah's call to slaughter every Jew, anywhere on earth (accompanied by hundreds of rockets aimed at civillians).

[Scurrilous]

67. Here:

"(The Palestinians) are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

[cigsandcoffee]

70. Thanks for that.

Those are indeed scandalous, except maybe for the last one - that sounds like he was talking about their government and peace negotiations rather than dehumanizing the race.

While the hatred is there, I don't see the amazing paranoia that seems to permate the stuff coming from militant Islamics. I don't know what it is about the Jews that stirs up so many conspiracy theories.

[Scurrilous]

73. I guess you're welcome.

I don't feel comfortable posting stuff like this. I don't see the need to further disseminate hate speech.

[cigsandcoffee]

85. Oh, I don't know.

I don't condone it, but I've read harsher stuff at DU on a Sunday morning, thruth be known. Any more examples?

[Scurrilous]

99. Last ones:

"The only good Arab is a dead Arab...When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle," Rafael Eitan, Likud leader of the Tsomet faction (1981) in Noam Chomsky, Fateful Triangle, pp 129, 130.

"It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones. May the Holy Name visit retribution on the Arabs' heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annihilate them, and cause them to be vanquished and cause them to be cast from the world," Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, founder and spiritual leader of the Shas party, Ma'ariv, April, 9, 2001.

[oberliner]

96. these are all manipulated and/or made up quotes nt

[Scurrilous]

102. There are a lot of made up quotes out there...

...such as the Ariel Sharon 'we control the United States' one. I was careful not to include anything I found on a valid debunking site.

[oberliner]

106. the first misquote

"The children of Israel will happily go to school and joyfully return home, just like the children in Washington, in Moscow, and in Peking, in Paris and in Rome, in Oslo, in Stockholm and in Copenhagen. The fate of... Jewish children has been different from all the children of the world throughout the generations. No more. We will defend our children. If the hand of any two-footed animal is raised against them, that hand will be cut off, and our children will grow up in joy in the homes of their parents."

Menachem Begin
Speech to Israeli Knesset
June 8, 1982

Your version:

"(The Palestinians) are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin

Anything in paranthesis in a quote you realize was not actually said by the person being quoted.

Note the same tactic in the second "quote" as well as the elipsis.

I certainly do not deny that some Israelis hold some very racist views about Arabs.

I am, however, angry that such a large number of fake and/or manipulated quotes attributing things to Israeli leaders that they never said are floating out there on the internet. In many cases, those phony quotes are used by antisemitic hate groups. Sometimes those groups are the ones who made them up in the first place.

[Scurrilous]

107. Yep..

..they spun and spun on the Begin quote. The best they could come up with is that he didn't mean all Palestinians but was referring specifically to Palestinians who carry out terror attacks.

[oberliner]

110. just saying that the quote you presented is not an actual quote

a little unfair to put something in quotations marks that isn't an actual quote, wouldn't you agree?

[MannyGoldstein]

97. Context Please?

First off, even if these are presented in their correct contexts, they are not on the order of "they slowly draw all the blood out of babies so they can drink it during celebrations". The Barak quote is not even offensive!

Second, these are little quotes with parts snipped out - can you supply the full quotes? I'm guessing that we'll see something much different in the full quotes - but perhaps not.

[Scurrilous]

103. Where would I find the full quotes?

The original source?

I don't have access to any of the sources cited. No old JPosts or NY Times laying around.

[oberliner]

108. the second fake quote

"There are those who say… that the true owners of the land are the rioters, the murderers and the terrorists, who seek to destroy any remnant of the Jewish people in the land of Israel. We say to them - when we look from here on the thousands of years of our past and all that we have established in the present - that they are as grasshoppers in our sight."
-Yitzhak Shamir


I understand that it is not easy finding the actual source quote. The false quotes are repeated so often and so many sites that it makes finding that actual words themselves very difficult.

[Scurrilous]

117. Uh...

...I don't see where you're going with this. I post a quote. You post another quote and say the one I posted is invalid or not the actual quote. Where's the proof that the quote I posted is fake.

[oberliner]

120. the actual speeches themselves?

I am posting the words that were said in the actual speeches that the quotes are purported to be from.

Feel free to go the library and get the microfilm from the New York Times April 1, 1988 and you can read what's actually written there for yourself.

If you are willing to reproduce supposed quotes from The New York Times slandering past Israeli leaders, I think you ought to take the time to make sure The New York Times actually printed what you are claiming rather than just taking something off the web which you've admitted has some quotes from Israeli leaders which were debunked (and still appear, presented as actual quotes, with great frequency online).

Again, this is not to say Israelis have not said hateful things about Arabs. They definitely have.

[Scurrilous]

124. Where did you get the actual speeches...

...are they on your ipod?

Or are you taking something off the web (specifically CAMERA).

And yeah...God forbid anyone should slander Begin and Shamir.

*snarf*

[oberliner]

125. The New York Times

I am not taking anything off the web. Certainly not CAMERA.

I can't stand Begin and Shamir. They've said ridiculously insulting enough things without having to make up quotes.

If you had used the actual quote itself from Begin it still makes him look like a racist, which he was.

What I object to is posting a fake quote as if its a real quote.

And, as you can probably tell, I am displeased with the fact that there are so many of these fake quotes out there all over the web which are repeated and reprinted ad infinitim for a variety of reasons including, on some white supremacist web sites, to try to make Jews seem monstrous.

The source material for these purported quotes (the ones not entirely created out of thin air) is usually not that hard to track down at a good public or university library.

[Ms. Clio]

153. if you had already seen these speeches at the NY Times

then you should have known that the quotes were indeed accurate, as Emit proved.

Odd,that.

[oberliner]

155. you're right

I had the April 20 one which obviously was not what was being referenced. I just searched for "grasshopper" and "Shamir" in the archive and that was what had come up. Sloppy effort on my part. I would argue that the "like grasshoppers" remark should be read in the full context of the statement found in that April 20 piece. But that's not relevant to the fact that the NY Times did present the grasshopper word in the April 1 piece also, which I had no clue about.

Text of Begin's remarks is from the statement to the Knesset, not from the NY Times. Emit's research showed from where that two-legged beast phrase came but has that phrase and nothing else.

In spite of that, I defer to Emit's findings and think they speak for themselves.

[oberliner]

122. and to be fair

It was April 20, 1988 not April 1, 1988. The title of the article containing the remarks is "Israeli Consul-General, Letters" and the article is credited to Moshe Yegar.

[oberliner]

135. Thanks to Emit

There actually is an article from April 1.

Apologies and thank you for finding and posting.

[oberliner]

115. they are not actual quotes nt

see my replies up-thread

[Ms. Clio]

134. yes, they are

[oberliner]

142. people can read Emit's posts

And judge for themselves.

[Ms. Clio]

148. yes

they can.

[Emit]

146. Are the ones in the OP actual quotes? n/t

[oberliner]

150. good question

Let's research them and call out any fakes.

[Emit]

151. Well, so far, since many do not have a source

A news paper source, magazine, etc., LexisNexis isn't proving very helpful. I'll try, though.

[oberliner]

157. not finding English lanugage versions of sources

I'm finding some of the source material in Arabic. Do you read Arabic or know someone who can translate?

[Emit]

159. No, but post it and I might can try to search it through another method --

LexisNexis won't do Arabic -- but I can try another academic search tool I have. Tx.

[oberliner]

161. some websites in arabic

http://www.alakhbar.com.pk/

http://www.alhayat-j.com/

http://www.alriyadh.com/

Can you tell if any of these have searchable archives?

[oberliner]

160. have a video clip for this one

"The Holocaust is exploited to justify the Zionist policies and to justify the enemy state's right to exist. There is evidence, and scientific research, that prove the Holocaust is a lie. "
Dr. Ibrahim 'Alloush Al-Jazeera TV on August 23, 2005

Transcript has it as a direct quote.

There is the link to the video here:

http://memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=824

[Emit]

162. Thanks, I'll check it out. n/t

[oberliner]

163. possible source for purim quotes

Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma, "The Jewish Holiday of Purim," Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), March 10, 2002

The long quote attributed to the above individual is purported to be translated into English here:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP35402

That translation matches the quote of the original post.

The site definitely has an agenda and selectively translates articles that present the perspective they are trying to push. They've been accused of distortion so I would try to seek out the non-English version and find a trusted translator.

I think you can email them to ask for the original Arabic version of:

Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), March 10, 2002 to do an independant translation.

I now thinking that MEMRI may have been the source of a lot of these English translations. I made another post citing them which has a link to the actual video with the statement. If you know someone who speaks Arabic they can determine the accuracy of the transcipt.

[Emit]

127. Here's the Shamir article, obtained from LexisNexis

Here's the article, excerpted to include all of the disputed quotes:

SHAMIR PROMISES TO CRUSH RIOTERS
New York Times (1857-Current file); Apr 1, 1988; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2003)
pg. A3

Shamir Promises to Crush Rioters
'They Are Like Grasshoppers Compared to Us,' He Says -- One Arab Is Killed

Tel Aviv, March 31 (Reuters)

As Israel prepared to lift a three-day blockade of the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir warned today that rioters would be crushed “like grasshoppers.”

One Palestinian was killed today, bringing the toll to at least 112 in clashes with Israelis in the occupied territories since Dec.9.

Villagers identified the victim as Suleiman Ahmed al-Jundi, 17 years old, and said he was shot by troops during clashes in Yatta, south of Hebron. Military personnel said he was killed when an army patrol was attacked.

The clandestine leadership of the Palestinian uprising called for a general strike and clashes with Israeli soldiers next week to protest a visit by Secretary of State George P. Shultz.

Head-Smashing Threatened

But Mr. Shamir, standing atop an ancient West Bank castle, told reporters: “Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.”

The article continues with a few more paragraphs about the Israelis planning restrictions in effort to quell an anticipated demonstration, including a curfew, a ban on Palestinians leaving the West Bank or Gaza, the closure of the entire occupied area to news coverage, and closing of links to Jordan and "travel curbs inside the West Bank."


edit typo

[oberliner]

130. Thank you for posting this!

Very helpful.

This NY Times article doesn't give you the actual "like grasshoppers" quote either.

The article you posted here identifies his audience as reporters and not settlers as well.

Hopefully we can eradicate the fake quote from the internet and replace it with the actual one!

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.”

Interesting to trace the origin of the quote from the actual source. The use of an elipsis or parantheticals/brackets tend to indicate some kind of manipulation.

Thank you for the research!

[Ms. Clio]

132. No,the use of an ellipsis is a standard technique of quoting

by journalists and scholars. The source backs up the original quotes as posted.

[oberliner]

145. can you look at what was elided? nt

[Ms. Clio]

149. no, it's not like that at all, and any scholar knows it

and quit using bogus inflammatory quotes.

WTF?

[oberliner]

152. you win

I give up. You're right. I apologize for the inflammatory quote. I'll delete it.

[Ms. Clio]

154. thanks, because it really did make me uncomfortable

I see no need to add fake nasty quotes to this already ugly thread.

[Scurrilous]

133. Thanks Emit.

So Shamir stated:

"...that rioters would be crushed “like grasshoppers.”

...and that

“Anybody who wants to damage this fortress and other fortresses we are establishing will have his head smashed against the boulders and walls.”


The quote I found:

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."

[Ms. Clio]

136. right -- all the quote did was chop out the fortress part

of course, this is a standard technique used by journalists and scholars for eliminating extraneous material from a quote. Your version was entirely accurate.

[oberliner]

141. exactly

And now that we have the source itself, people can see the manipulation for themselves!

And it's still not an actual quote. Though it's a lot closer than what I thought it was.

[Ms. Clio]

147. Fine, but it's not necessary

Or do you think every time I quote a newspaper or a journal or a government document in my work I have to furnish the entire document to prove that it's a real quote?

[Emit]

131. As far as the Begin quote,

I am unable to access the New Statesman, but there is also the following published article from the same year:

Copyright 1982 Guardian Publication, Ltd.
Manchester Guardian Weekly

December 5, 1982

SECTION: LE MONDE; Pg. 12

LENGTH: 1867 words

HEADLINE: 'Inspired insanity' in Begin's plan for the West Bank

BYLINE: by Eric Rouleau

DATELINE: BETHLEHEM, November 18

BODY:
"My father was born in Palestine under the Tukish occupation, and was a citizen of the Ottoman empire. I myself was a British citizen when at the end of the first world war, my country went under the protection of the Colonial Office. My son automatically acquired Jordanian nationality when the Hashemite Kingdom annexed the West Bank in 1950. My grandson, who was born in the West Bank after it was seized by the Israelis in 1967, has no recognised nationality. At best, Mr Begin considers him an 'Arab in Greater Israel', a foreigner without a precise nationality, or, at worst as a 'biped' doomed to disappear one way or another." (Speaking in the Knesset on June 10, Begin described Palestinian fighters as "two-footed beasts".)

These words, from a shopkeeper in Bethlehem, on the West Bank, conveyed perfectly the deep bitterness of the Palestinians "of the interior", that is, Palestinians living in the Israeli-occupied territories. The discrimination, the humiliating vexations, the daily herassment, the police repression and the collective punishments they have had to put up with for the past 15 years, they say, would at a pinch be bearable if their Israeli guardians were not also relentlessly grabbing the last remaining bit of land which was once their homeland.

"The Israeli occupation," claims an economist, Ibrahim Mater, "is the most damaging we have experienced in our history. The Ottomans, British and Jordanians had also oppressed us in their time and often with brutal severity, but they never tried to grab the land on which we have been living since time immemorial."

The Jewish colonisation of the occupied territories, started by the Labour Party and carried further since the Likud gained power in 1977, has acquired agonising proportions for the indigenous population. They do not need to consult the "map of settlements in Eretz Israel" published by the zionist Organisation which shows a mass of multicoloured dots denoting existing settlements, those which are under construction or due to be built, to realise that close to half of the West Bank and its most fertile land have been confiscated on various grounds and merged in the "Jewish patrimony".

The Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem, which has been formally annexed by Israel, have seen springing up all around them blocks of buildings whose 40,000 apartments are earmarked for some 70,000 Israelis, often as not new immigrants. Another block of 10,000 apartments will help seal the indigenous Palestinians within the "Greater Jerusalem" which is planned to extend north, south and eastwards to include Bethlehem, Ramallah and localities only some 15 kilometres from Jericho. The zone that "metropolitan" Jerusalem is intended to cover has already been "closed" to the indigenous population which is not allowed either to build or extend their property holdings in this part of the West Bank.

~snip~

Copied and pasted as was retrieved. It continues in in great length.

[Scurrilous]

137. Thanks again Emit.

Great job. :thumbsup:

[oberliner]

139. I second that

Emit, that is some terrific work.

[Emit]

158. Sure. No problem. Don't know where exactly to post this to but

I thought I'd take a stab at the context of some of the quotes in the OP -- in fairness and all. Well, because the majority of quotes are not sourced as to any publications, I can not find them through LexisNexis, so one has to rely on the internet.

As far as that God-awful piece of trash story that was written in the Saudi Riyadh Daily, by Husniya Hassan Moussa, on line, that is showing various titles. I did search it on LexisNexis, and I was able to search specifically for "Riyadh Daily." I'm not getting any hits, though, for this title, variations of this title, content within article or even author. I'm wondering if it's a language barrier thing -- although I should get some hits on the author, I would think at least. I do have another way of searching for non-English pieces, but it is limited and does not include Arabic.

Anyway, Scurrilous, I think some posters here may want to apologize to you for slamming your quotes. The quotes in the OP are no better sourced, and perhaps no more credible then, than the quotes you provided.

Now, I agree with something you made reference to up thread, Scurrilous -- this was a weird search, as I usually do not find myself searching for anti-Semitic quotes, or anti-Arab/Palestinian or whatever....If I suddenly disappear and you never see me posting again, well, you know...tell everyone I love them....:scared: :tinfoilhat:

[Scurrilous]

165. LOL

I heard Gitmo is lovely this time of year.

:thumbsup:

[oberliner]

171. which article?

The quote from Husniya Hassan Moussa in the OP is cited as being from Al Ilm (Egypt) not from Riyadh Daily. Are you referring to that one or to something posted in a different thread?

[Emit]

178. My mistake -- wrong author

I typed the name of the wrong author in my post above -- meant to type in Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma. I'm referring to

Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma, "The Jewish Holiday of Purim," Al-Riyadh (Saudi Arabia), March 10, 2002 -- the one about about the Jewish holiday of Purim. Using NexisLexis, I could find no hits for title, author, etc. through this publication -- but, if that publication is not one in their data base, I can't access it. They do have "Riyadh Daily" available, but it appears that is not the same publication.

[oberliner]

189. check out my post #163

For a possible source on the Purim quotes.

[Emit]

140. And, as far as the crocodile quote from Barak

It's one document here from LexisNexis, but it looks like two combined stories. I copied and excerpted the relevant parts due to DU quoting sources rules, treating them as separate articles, though, as the context differs in each (does that make sense?):

Copyright 2000 Agence France Presse
Agence France Presse -- English

August 29, 2000, Tuesday

SECTION: International news

LENGTH: 590 words

HEADLINE: Barak aide compares Palestinians to crocodiles: radio

DATELINE: JERUSALEM, Aug 29

BODY:
An aide to Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Barak has compared Palestinians to crocodiles in their demands for sovereignty over east Jerusalem, Israeli public radio reported Tuesday.

"In a few weeks we will know if the Palestinians want peace and are prepared to look at the compromise proposals on Jerusalem put forward by (US) President Bill Clinton at Camp David or if they are like crocodiles, which the more they eat the hungrier they are," the radio quoted the aide as saying.

The unnamed official in Barak's office was speaking in the plane returning from a one-day visit by the prime minister to Turkey Monday.

~snip~

The Palestinians rejected proposals for shared sovereignty over east Jerusalem, which they want as the capital of a future state. Containing sites sacred to Christians, Jews and Muslims, it was captured from Jordan and annexed by Israel in 1967.

Arafat warned Monday at a meeting in Morocco of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference's Jerusalem Committee which backed the Palestinian claims that east Jerusalem was "the key to peace or war" in the Middle East.

chw/mb

An Arab Israeli MP accused Prime Minister Ehud Barak Tuesday of demonising the Palestinians by describing them as "crocodiles" for their stance in the peace process.

Israeli radio had reported that a close Barak aide had described the Palestinians as crocodiles during a return trip from Turkey on Monday, but MP Ahmed Tibi said it was the prime minister himself who had uttered the words.

"In a few weeks we will know if the Palestinians want peace and are prepared to look at the compromise proposals on Jerusalem put forward by (US) President Bill Clinton at Camp David or if they are like crocodiles, the more they eat the hungrier they are," the radio quoted the aide as saying.

"I have checked and I'm sure in what I say, that Barak himself used these words, and that's a demonisation of the Palestinians," Tibi said on public radio. An AFP journalist travelling on the plane with Barak said she had not heard Barak make such statements.

Tibi said Barak's remarks were along the lines of jibes by Ovadia Yosef, the powerful spiritual leader of the Shas party who branded Arabs as "serpents," former army chief Raphael Eytan who called them "cockroaches" and former prime minister Menachem Begin who said they were "ferocious beasts."

"Now it's Barak's turn. For a man who wants peace, it would be better if he didn't speak of the jungle," said Tibi, a former adviser to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

Barak has repeatedly called for Arafat to show more flexibility in the peace process and warned that he would be held responsible if negotiations failed to reach an accord.

~snip~

chw/txw/sct

LOAD-DATE: August 29, 2000

[oberliner]

143. beautiful

This is great.

[malaise]

168. The only quote I need is

'from the Nile to the Euphrates'. Who said that again?

[cigsandcoffee]

60. Would you?

I'd very much like to see some examples for comparison, to see if there really is an equivalent tone.

[Ms. Clio]

71. hope post #67 was helpful, then n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

74. It was. I found the Islamist stuff much harsher...

...I'm not really sure there's a moral equivalency between the sides. The quoted Israeli hatred I can recognize as something similar to our own loony bins. The Islamist stuff seems weird and perverse on top of being hateful.

[Ms. Clio]

77. I don't think you can parse out the "moral eqivalency" of ugly rhetoric

I find all of it disgusting, myself.

[cigsandcoffee]

82. I'm not so sure...

As to the Jewish quotes, the third wasn't really offensive, and the first was tame compared to some of the stuff I've heard about freeps and such around here. The middle one was dodgy, but it didn't have the strange "they make cakes out of children" aspect to it.
The Islamist stuff is just plain creepy.

[oberliner]

123. you don't have to defend quotes that were not actually said

They are fakes. Quotes not actually made by those people. Though oft repeated across the internets.

[Emit]

128. An excerpt of one of the original articles is now posted.

You can determine for yourself what was taken out of context.

[Ms. Clio]

138. They are not fake, no matter how many times you repeat that

[William Seger]

31. You got twice as far as I did

I only got as far as, "The thing I have a problem with is that many groups on the left did not condemn the Hezbollah rocket attacks on Israel that have been happening for months without provocation or the kidknapping of Israeli soldiers on the Israeli side of the border, however, the second Israel responded Israel faced condemnation."

Just so you know, BayCityProgressive, MY problem is HOW Israel "responded."

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

3. "Anti-semitic trolls at DU"

Please back that up with clear examples.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Contact your nearest moderator.

Ask them if they had to delete anti-Semitic drivel from the pages of DU.

[Skip Intro]

11. Second that. Where are the anti-Semitic posts? What did they say?

[Behind the Aegis]

17. enjoy...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1738732

[cracksquirrel]

21. Wow...

I want to thank the moderators, The Magistrate specifically, for locking that thread but not deleting it. Some thing should not be whitewashed away. As everyone can see, no matter how much evidence accumulates, people will demand "evidence" of any so-called anti-semitism here. Thank you again.

[Scurrilous]

41. If that poster is an example of an antisemitic troll...

...why are they still here? I thought DU tombstones trolls.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Ask a moderator.

[WhollyHeretic]

44. What? You can't discern it for yourself?

[Scurrilous]

48. Nope.

I guess my trolldar isn't as finely tuned as BtA's.

[WhollyHeretic]

51. Pretty much everyone else was able to see the hatred in that post

no matter what their position on the current conflict.

[liberalhistorian]

58. There was one truly sickening thread posted

with the intelligent, progressive, thoughtful (dripping sarcasm icon) title of "Ned Lamont is another Jew-hugger." I'm sure there have been others.

[oberliner]

111. are you serious?

I would direct you to the moderators who have thankfully deleted and removed a lot of hard-core anti-semitic posts.

[cracksquirrel]

12. See that's the thing...

It's impossible to do so. As BTA said, you'll have to ask a moderator. Those posts are immediately deleted for their insipid content, and thus cannot be linked to or verified. That does not mean that they do not exist, it just means the DU doesn't tolerate that kind of crap.

[Scurrilous]

15. Todays word:

Insipid.

[cracksquirrel]

24. Today?

That word has described the last 6 years of life in the USA! But yeah, hell, these last few weeks in particular...
I said in a different thread, that with all the crap being thrown around, everyone's stinking and filthy. We need to stop hypocritically calling eachother stinky and start finding away to clear away all the crap, cause that's where we're at.

[liberalhistorian]

56. He means anyone who doesn't

completely agree with and support Israel no matter what, right or wrong.

[theoldman]

14. Just because I argue with my Jewish friends does not mean

that I am anti-Semitic. You would be surprised at how many of them argue with each other. Just like in the US, many of them do not agree with their government's policies. There are Jewish liberals just as there are Jewish conservatives.

[BayCityProgressive]

19. I agree.

argue and debate as much as possible. Just don't heap all hatred and punishment on Israel when so many other nations are similar to or far worse than Israel. That is what I was stating in my original post. Israel needs ot be criticized so it can be improved upon, just as the US needs it.

[MannyGoldstein]

126. Oh Absolutely

One of my best friends is Lebanese. I am Jewish. We argue all the time. We learn from each other. I'd never call him anti-semitic.

(BTW - did you know that Arabs are Semites also?)

[PCIntern]

6. GREAT POST!!

Well done...these facts need to be stated and restated. The Arab hwo control these countries want nothing less than the death of Israel. They so stated...how can you not believe that this is their intention when they wage constant war? If Gandhi were sent over there, he'd be beheaded on International TV.

[cool user name]

87. Yeah ... there were facts ...

Like this one:

<...>They offered Palestine , in line with UN resolutions, 96% of the pre-1967 borders ...

:eyes:

Ummm, 96% of pre-1967 borders?

Try 22% of of the original mandate (or translation 96% of 22% with borders controlled, criss-crossed with Jewish only bypass roads, settlements, and the Palestinians caged in little bantustans.

Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

[oberliner]

114. it's raining

The Palestine draft constitution refers to borders based on the West Bank and Gaza Strip prior to the 1967 Six-Day War.

The OP obviously meant 96% of the the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

I wasn't aware that the Palestians were requesting the entirity of the State of Israel as the location of the Palestinian state.

[wellst0nev0ter]

118. According To Israeli Negotiator Shaul Arieli

http://www.shtull-trauring.org/aron/Community/Articles/They_just_cant_hear_each_other.html">Israel offered no map to the Palestinians that offered them more than 88 percent of the West Bank during the Camp David summit.

The 96 percentage figure was offered in December and was not on paper, and Arafat agreed to that and entered the Taba talks, which were ended by the election of Sharon.

I do wish people would stop with the self-serving histories of the negotiations.

[cool user name]

179. And it still doesn't resolve the issue.

People want to mention 96%.

Fine.

Then put it in context. 96% is really just 96% of 22% of the original mandate. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but something tells me that that's way way less than 96% as originally disingenously expressed.

[wellst0nev0ter]

188. I Try To Take Them At Their Word

although I'm hearing a lot from analysts that the deal isn't what it seems and fits closely with your paradigm.

[QuestionAll...]

7. I support the people of Israel

and the people of the US
and the people of everywhere.

somewhere in Beirut or Haifa or Baghdad a mom is speaking to her daughter:
Anna, it's time for you to do your homework.
O, but ma!
Anna, I will not ask you again, sweetheart
yes, mama.
Anna, I love you.
Mama, I love you too

((( then KABOOOOOOM!!!!)

what I will never support is the strongarm nastyness of mass murder of their so called governments run by cold blooded reptiles, so called being representatives of them while the top cream collect their profits from the warm blood of good and innocent civilians.

[PCIntern]

13. When is this 'children' business going to stop?

OF COURSE no one wants to see dead children on DU...or any other sane venue. This tragedy has unfolded in every military action since the beginning of time...when they called the pillaging of cities, the Rape, they meant in all sense of the word...children and women were skewered, tortured, their entrails cut out, raped, sodomized, and more. So what else is new? That is NOT to minimize the tragedy, but that's what happens when you attack a sovereign country. People die. Horribly.

So perhaps Chairman Arafat should have thought of that before he walked away from the table, before the HEzbollah shot rockets into settlements...they should have thought of the children, OK? The Jordanians and the Egyptians may have thought of their ensuing generations and at least temporarily called a halt to war against Israel. Maybe it would have been better for that thief, killer, and liar Arafat to have accepted a little less than threaten their own children. But they didn't, did they? They just don't care about their own, the Israelis' or your children. They are death dealers. Understand that.

[QuestionAll...]

28. I want the 'children' thing to stop as well.

their needless suffering deaths.

I'm not really sure what You mean tho....

[PCIntern]

45. delete- duplicate post

[PCIntern]

46. what I mean is

that there is an assumption when the people post this business about the sufferring children...that it's Israel's responsibility to ensure the safety of everyone's children, even if there are rockets being launched at Israelis from a day-care center. It's just not gonna happen...that's what I'm saying. War is Hell and which circle of Hell is yet to be determined...

what upsets me is that the ethic of this action in the M.E. for so many DUers is the unneeded death and dismemberment of children. this is de riguer in war and although a sham and a horror, that's why war should be the last resort. Now go tell Mr. Bush, the Hezbollah, Hamas, and everyone else who's pricks people's skin hoping that nothing will happen.

[QuestionAll...]

49. did u actually read my post and it's geographic introduction?

I made it a point to include families from everywhere.

Which one should I take off the list, according to you?

[PCIntern]

52. nowhere...

you can pray and cry for all the children of the world as do I. Tell the leaders of these movements to stop bombing sovereign countries for no reason. Then the children will stop dying...

[QuestionAll...]

53. let's start with asking the biggest perpetrators to start first

with the stopping of bombing.

doesn't that sound reasonable?

bush/olmert.
you just stop this shit right now.

sounds good to me.

[cool user name]

91. Sounds good to me too. n/t

[Phx_Dem]

66. It's your use of an emotional appeal

to make an argument, it lacks reasoning.

[QuestionAll...]

88. that's quite sad, to dismiss emotions.

yes, they do get in the way of a good slaughter.
but I will continue to keep mine, thanks. You can go the robot way if you like - I have no say in that.

[mom cat]

72. Some people do not want attention drawn to the suffering of the

children in Lebanon and Israel right now. Soch a focus might dampen the thirst for war. So lets not talk about the fact that one third of those killed in Lebanon have been children. It might stop this illegal war.

[meti57b]

83. It's hunger and disease in third world countries that kills children

of the world, much more so than anything else.

[QuestionAll...]

116. if a million bucks for a few childrens heads in war zones

could actually go to the needy (including the US)...

[Magical]

35. I speak for the CHILDREN

Who DO NOT HAVE A VOICE TO SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

GOT IT.

[PCIntern]

50. Very nice...

where were you and yours when Israeli children were killed in Tel Aviv in 1991 during the SCUD missle attacks, where were you when the Passover seders were bombed, killing whole families during their holiday celebration, where were you when the Arabs launched the Yom Kippur War on the holiest day in the Jewish calendar and came very close to defeating the unprepared IDF? BTW, if it weren't for Alexander Haig, Israel would not hav gotten the TOW missles to defeat the Syrian Armor which had punched thru. And that decision not to send those, made by Nixon, but overruled by Haig, spelled the end of Nixon.

So you have the Israelis to thank for that at least.

The children...the children will suffer and die like they do here in Appalachia, and in the deep south where they lack nourishment and vaccinations, like in all those African countries ruled by despots who hold up supplies so they can resell them on the black market. And on and on.

[Magical]

62. Well...

I work with children teaching them kindness, peace, respect for self, others, and the environment.
I condemn any action of violence, but especially against children, as they are so innocent.

As for victims of terror or violence in Israel, it sickens me to know that Israeli citizens can't board a bus or go to a cafe without fear of getting blown up.

I also think that Israel's current actions are only going to further the hatred and are totally counter-productive by creating MILLIONS of new victims. Very sad there isn't more wisdom in the leadership, as the results of the total devastation of Lebanon are quite predictable.

[Phx_Dem]

68. magical thinking

"I also think that Israel's current actions are only going to further the hatred...."

you picked a good name for youself.

[Magical]

69. Care to Explain since you seem to Disagree ? nt

[Phx_Dem]

80. Your repeating a tired logical fallacy

that somehow a perceived "wrong" untimately leads to revenge, hatred etc. It has no basis in fact, it is "magical thinking".

[Magical]

86. Nice Try

Tragic shooting in Seattle at Jewish Center just now by someone who said they were motivated by what was happening in Lebanon. Look at all the violence we're seeing based on Revenge.

And, FYI, my screen name Magical refers to my experience working with children and nature. If you've never experienced it, you might give it a try, as it has nothing to do with THINKING.

[Phx_Dem]

89. Good example

According to the Seattle Times, a man got through security at the Jewish Federation and told staff members, "I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel," then began shooting, according to Amy Wasser-Simpson, the vice president for planning and community services for the Jewish Federation.

So let me ask you, does everyone that is mad at Israel go on a shooting spree? No? Why, because most people understand that we control our own behavior, our choices are deliberate. His inability to control his behavior has very little to do with the precipitating event(s), and much more to do with his personality, state of mind/being etc.

[Magical]

121. I Do Agree

On one level, I certainly agree with you.

In fact, I was just out to dinner with my wife and we were discussing all the 'unresolved pain' people are carrying around that can be easily triggered into rage.

However, in the reality of his sick mind, it was the reason.

And, unfortunately, there are many more people who are willing to resort to violence to either 'avenge' a perceived wrong, simply to 'relieve' the rage they can't recognize as their own shadow, or to show how much power they have at their disposal.

To leave Israel out of the equation, I have the same opinion of Bush's 'cowboy diplomacy'. It is fairly obvious the US has destroyed tremendous 'good will' in the world and there are many more people who wish us harm.

Have we found some common ground ?

[Phx_Dem]

180. common ground

I should have made a better effort to explain what I was referring to in my original response, and I apologize for that (also my snide comment about your name).

I agree with you about Bush.

Clearly past events affect future behavior to a degree, but behavior is shaped by hundreds of variables, to say that event A causes person B to do C, is very simplistic.

[PaulaFarrell]

167. Hezbollah was born during Israel's first invasion of Lebanon

I don't understand how you can fail to see the linear progression of invasion/death/destruction to resistance/hatred/revenge. To assume that our actions occur in a vacuum with no effect, now THAT is magical thinking. The only people who don't react with hatred to a wrong of this order are either saints or dead.

[Phx_Dem]

181. because there is nothing linear about it

This type of argument completely ignores all the other variables that ultimately lead some to terrorism. Terrorism results from psychological, economic, political, religious, sociological, and physiological factors, and probably more. The Personal Pathways Model by Shaw offers a credible explanation of the psychology of joining a terrorist group, look it up.

[PaulaFarrell]

190. Never said it led to terrorism

You said that is is magical thinking to assume that a 'perceived "wrong" untimately leads to revenge, hatred etc' - I am saying that percieived wrongs do lead to hatred and revenge and there is simply nothing 'magical' in that, it is a fact of human nature, proven throughout history. I never said every wronged person becomes a terrorist, and not every person has it in them to actually enact revenge. That doesn't mean they don't hate the people who wrong them. Some people do rise above it, of course, but they're unusual. I suppose this would take care of your 'economic, political, religious, sociological, and physiological factors,'.

[Phx_Dem]

192. OK

but what I am saying is that your "causal pathway" is not direct. There is simply no direct causal relationship between a percieved wrong and a persons reaction to it.

[sistersofmercy]

8. Doesn't this belong in the I/P forum?

[Behind the Aegis]

10. No.

[sendero]

18. That's all well and good..

... but I'm done with the WHOLE Middle East. The malefactors that call for the destruction of Israel, AND the Israelis, who seem to think they can punish them collectively.

There are no "good guys" in the Middle Eastern conflict. It is not a football game, I do not have to choose sides, and I condemn ALL OF THEM.

[PCIntern]

22. Well I guess they're all going to have to

disappear. click your heels three times...

Ooops, when you pa $5 a gallon, ...you're Baaaack!

[sendero]

34. My support..

.. or lack of is not going to effect the situation. And yes, this conflict is going to cost ALL of us, in fact it already has.

But to make the assumption that one has to choose a side is ridiculous. Neither is worthy of anything.

[BayCityProgressive]

26. and you are completely free and able to do that!

please understand I am not condemning people who take no position or a poistion different than mine, only those who attack Israel constantly for things that many of the nations and people they support are far more guilty of. If you truly believe that neither are worth supporting, than don't support either! My post was in no way trying to stiffle opinion.

[meti57b]

23. BayCityProgressive, ..... GREAT POST!!!

Recommended.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. Write On!

It's certainly true that there's more kvetching on DU when Israel accidentally kills a civilian than when its enemies purposely kill civilians. I like to think that it's not anti-semitic; rather, it's because more is expected from a beacon of Democracy and goodness than from genocidal miscreants. But sometimes I worry.

Every time I read about the Saudis sponsoring Jews-as-drinkers-of-baby-blood anti-semitism I think of Dear Leader walking hand-in-hand with that Saudi sheikh...

A small quibble about an otherwise-excellent post: Jews did have full rights in a number of countries, such as Germany and the US, prior to the founding of Israel. However, Germany showed how tenuous this acceptance can be... all the more reason for a refuge/protector of Jews to exist.

[BayCityProgressive]

27. true,

I should have phrased that better. I should have said Jews were persecuted in all nations, many by the state itself.

[Scurrilous]

36. Shouldn't you provide the links for all your quotes...

...here I'll do it for you:

http://www.memri.org/

Just because the site is run by that bigot Daniel Pipes shouldn't make you ashamed to provide the link.

[cracksquirrel]

38. well

feel free to provide detailed refutations of all claims made on that site, with footnotes and links to sources.
Or, you could just point to any kind of pattern of falsehood in what is presented there. Are the videos doctored? Are the translations incorrect? Did that Imam really say "We should hug the Jews" when the subtitles said "we should kill the Jews"?
Anything?

[BayCityProgressive]

40. actually

I have never been to that site before. I got some quotes from newspapers and others form website and I can provide sources and links for you. I am going out for a quick dinner but I will be adding to this post including more information and links.

[Scurrilous]

43. Don't bother...

...I googled the quotes already. I know where they come from.

[cracksquirrel]

30. Yeah

What the world needed was like... a Jew wildlife refuge! Like the rare white rhino, Jews were hunted for their rare and coveted ivory tusks.
I submitted all this to Animal Planet, but they told me it was grossly inaccurate...

[eridani]

112. The kill ratio has been 10 or 20 to one in Israel's favor for 30 years

Some "helplessness."

[Magical]

29. This should be simple

I think there are very few who would say Israel should not defend itself, HOWEVER...

The OBLITERATION of a whole freaking country
Creating hundreds of thousands of refugees
Killing hundreds of civilians and wounding thousands (many children) SO FAR
Blowing up 10 story buildings
Refusing a ceasefire to let trapped civilians escape
Bombing all the escape routes and fuel depots trapping people
Bombing the UNARMED UN observers
Using clusterbombs, fuel-air explosives, depleted uranium munitions, white phosphorous and who knows what else
Bombing ambulances right thru the RED CROSS
Creating an environmental disastrous oil spill
And the list goes on...

Shows a WANTON DISREGARD FOR LIFE and is TERRORISM in the EXTREME creating MORE HATRED and is clearly not winning Israel any more FRIENDS.

It is the Tactics, Attitude (Arrogance, Lying and Disregard for OTHERS lives and never owning any of their own CLEARLY INTENTIONAL violations of international law, and the SCOPE of DEVASTATION that are offensive to pretty much any unbiased observer.

I hope that is CLEAR.

[mr blur]

59. Clear - and well said. (nt)

[laura888]

75. Nice post,, Magical. n/t

[mike_c]

32. "...happening for months without provocation...."

You lost me with the first bit of propaganda-- "without provocation." Where have you been for the last several decades?

[BayCityProgressive]

37. Where have you been?

Israel left lebanon. Stating they still have a right to attack Israel is saying Vietnam still has a right to attack the US.

[mike_c]

57. you're either being disingenuous or deliberately obtuse....

Hezbollah is not "Lebanon"-- it is an independent Shiite militia which fights in support of Palestinians (among the many other things Hezbollah does, but that's the one that counts in the present context). Further, the most direct proximate cause for the current conflict was Hezbollah's attempt to initiate a prisoner exchange to free some of the thousands held in Israeli jails for the crime of being "militant"-- a crime that I would likely be guilty of under Israeli terms. Israel has certainly provoked Hezbollah, primarily through it's oppression of Palestinians. Israel is an apartheid state-- that is provocation on an international scale. Israel refuses to implement UN Res. 242-- which likewise calls for international condemnation and is a regional provocation of the highest order. Israel holds thousands on trumped up charges. I could go on, but I suspect you can see the general trend.

If you insist on seeing the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in MSNBC-style context, then yes, Israel is simply a long suffering victim defending itself from unprovoked terrorism. Unfortunately, the real world is more complicated than American cable news wants to portray it.

[laura888]

78. Exactly. n/t

[jonnyblitz]

94. this thread is a fucking hoot. so many clueless people...

:crazy:

[liberalhistorian]

63. When the hell did Lebanon say it had the

"right to attack Israel"? It's really irritating the way too many Israel-no-matter-what posters lump Hezbollah and Hamas in with Lebanon, Gaza, and other Arab countries. Hezbollah is a separate, private group that has nothing to do with the Lebanese government. Any statements they make are not coming from the Lebanese government or its people.

You do NOT destroy an entire country, its civilian and economic infrastructure, kill and wound hundreds of its civilians, mostly women and children, and create a horrendous humanitarian crisis with nearly a million desperate refugees who are now BLINDED BY ANGER AND HATRED OF ISRAEL BECAUSE OF IT, over statements made by a private group that has nothing to do with the government. Or is it that such lives aren't nearly as important as Israeli lives?

[Clarkie1]

39. Thank you for taking the time to post this.

You make some excellent points, particularly about the government of Lebanon failing in it's responsibilities.

[eridani]

113. If Israel wants the Lebanese army to suppress Hezbollah--

--then why are they bombing the Lebanese army?

[raging moderate]

47. Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years

There is the one fact I do not seem to see pointed out, and I do believe it is an important fact. Romans, Arabs, and Europeans have all tried to clear out all the Jews from the Jewish nation at different times, but they have always missed a few, and naturally some have sneaked back into their homeland as soon as they could. The British found that Jews outnumbered both Muslims and Christians during the first census they took about a century and a half ago.
Being part-British, I feel so ashamed of the coverup of Britain's shameful history with the Jews. The first history book I read said that several kings had "asked them to leave." Yeah, right! The Brits killed hundreds of Jews, and the rest fled. That will teach them to produce prophets like Moses who says plainly that God opposes slavery and oppression of the weak by the mighty, or Samuel and Isaiah who say plainly that God does not like to see people governed by kings, and does not think nobles are better than commoners, or Ezekiel who says plainly that the sin of Sodom was vicious callous greed, and that God hates it when rich people polllute rivers, or the author of Proverbs who says plainly that the just man is kind even to beasts. Pardon me for suspecting that some of our ancestors were guilty of striking out at the messengers who told them unpleasant truths. In Britain, groups such as the Lollards went around reading these pertinent passages to the downtrodden peasants, which made no end of "trouble" for the "upper" classes.
That being said, I do have to say that I have always admired the way the Israeli military used to respond, with sudden, painstakingly precise surgical action against the exact few agressors at the exact tiny location. I think it really spooked a lot of people for a very long time, because it showed superb intellect, self-control, and mastery of technology. I am no military strategist, but this latest action seems so full of rage, as though they just couldn't stand it anymore and lost their tempers. And I can't help wondering if that is what some people somewhere were trying to trick them into doing.
I also remember that some of the Muslims encountered by the Brits during the crusades are said to have helped them start questioning the corrupt oppressive royal governments, and indeed actually led to asking themselves what God's justice would really look like. I truly believe that we all need to listen to each other in order to let justice roll like rivers across our poor wounded world.

[daydreamer]

104. Jews have left thousands of years ago. At the beginning of the zionism

movement, there were only about 20,000 Jews living in Israel if I remember what I read. Before that Arabs and Jews lived in relative peace and even fought together against the British. It's a fact that most Israels living there now are recent immigrants. In the last decade only, there has be a million Russians immigrating into Israel to be our welfare recipients.

[sistersofmercy]

Fair enough

I didn't read the entire post but may eventually, it's too long. I criticize the Israeli government not the people. I criticize our current US governmnet more than any other. In fact I have plenty of criticisms for many governments of world. I have Israeli friends and American friends who are Jewish, some agree with what I think and some don't. I just talked to a friend of mine who is rabidly pro-Israel, we were on the phone for about 2 hours discussing this issue. I asked why he couldn't admit that not every thing Israel does is right? The UN bombing was wrong, no excuses, period. It had happened before in qana in 96, no excuses. The conversation ended with him only saying what else could they do? He simply couldn't admit it was wrong. I had told him of course I'm disgusted when ANY group, hamas, hezbollah, palestinian suicide bombers, targets innocent civilians but it also includes Israel.
I would love to know what percentage of Israelis support the military action in Lebanon and also what percent of American Jews support the the military action in Lebanon. I suspect a larger percentage of American Jews support the military action than actual Israelis. My friend I spoke with has family members who reside in Israel and have since after WWII and he has been there numerous times, he said the Israeli population is by and large liberal and very critical of the Israeli government.

[PCIntern]

76. Not true...

polls show that I believe that 82% of Israelis support the present action.

Nice try.

[sistersofmercy]

175. Nice try? What's that supposed to mean?

I was asking a question based on what a friend who has relatives living in Israel and who has traveled to Israel said. He is very pro-Israel, thinks they do no wrong, ever. I would be interested in polls from there and here. I don't doubt you're numbers but what are the numbers here? Please do not respond as though I'm some kind of Hezbollah supporter because I'm not. But I don't agree with bombing the crap out of a vulnerable country because some fringe group hids and operates in their country. There is no excuse for the UN bombimg and there is no excuse for the oil spill either. Just as there is no excuse for killing people on the sabbath. NO excuses. I can remember an incident (and there actually may have been more than one) where the PLO took oozies and shot a family leaving a cathedrel in Rome (?) in the 80's. They killed an american family, a mother and a little girl on vacation. It was disgusting, it was a disgusting way to get media coverage. But I don't assign guilt to the entire muslim population. If you can ever admit the Israeli government does some atrocius acts in the name of expansionism and other clearly blamable incidents, then discourse is possible but to excuse every action clearly skews the debate beyond reasonable discussion.

[liberalhistorian]

54. I condemn the actions of both

sides, and mourn ALL innocent life lost. I don't agree with the "either-or" philosophy. Disagreement and disgust over Israel's current actions does NOT equate to support of Hezbollah and its actions. Expressions of mourning and sympathy for innocent Lebanese and Gaza victims does NOT equate to uncaring over innocent Israeli victims.

[rockymountaindem]

65. Thank you for posting this

And for being willing to endure the flame warriors.

[theanarch]

79. i find it interesting that your only stated problem...

...with Israel's war on Lebanon is that is "counterproductive", as in, it's not a crime against humanity, it's just a tactical mistake. As is common with almost all supporters of Israel, you seem to view events in a vaccuum: that the violence of the PLO, Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and others is always unprovoked and irrational, and in all cases totally divorced from, and irrelevant to, anything Israel has done over the past sixty years. Until supporters of Israel are prepared to discuss this matter with intellectual honesty--the illegality of the occupation; water and land allocation policies that favor settlers over Palestinians; the use of collective punishment; bull-dozing thousands of Palestinian homes; the administrative detention (and torture) of over 9,000 Palestinian civilians without charges or legal representation, to name a few--there is nothing of value or usefulness to talk about.

[BayCityProgressive]

81. okay let me further state

that it is a crime that so many innocents are dying in lebanon AND in Israel. I said counterproductive to shorten my post and get to my point.

[theanarch]

84. okay...so you've sided with the 99% of DU'ers...

...who deplore the violence of both sides. A very magnanimous concession. Now, what about my point: the relationship between Israel's occupation, etc., and the reactive terrorism that it spawns? Or do you hold to your original position that there is no such relationship?

[BayCityProgressive]

90. I think that

the conflict has been started by the Arabic nations not accepting Israel as a state. Palestine can not be made a state unilaterally by Israel. I think the settlements are wrong as do most Israelis, and most have been uprooted. I guess the difference is I think that the cause is the fact that these nations are trying to destroy Israel and deny it's existence not the other way around. I think this is the main point of contention between DUers.

[theanarch]

98. okay, so it's all the Arab's fault...

...gotcha. Putting that aside, i will dispute your contention that "Palestine cannot be made a state unilaterally by Israel"--seems to me everything Israel's done in the occupied territories is to unilaterally insure that Palestine will NEVER become an independent state, but remain an impoverished, brutalized colony of Israel--bombing the governmental infrastructure, withholding the PA's tax revenues (the primary source of income for 30% of the population); maintaining Israel-only roads, detaining government officials at will and without legal process; targeted assassinations, etc., etc...kind of hard to "govern" under those conditions, isn't it? But, as you say, it's all the Arab's fault. And you might want to check out the statistics on "uprooting" settlements: yes, something like 45% of the settleMENTS have been removed, but they accounted for less than 20% of the SETTLERS...the larger settlements with most of the settlers haven't gone anywhere. As for destroying Israel, i guess there's no point noting that all Arab governments, and most non-state organizations, have formally stated their willingness to begin negotiations regarding Israel's borders (and, implicitely, existance) if and when Israel agrees to impliment UN Resolution 242 (ending the occupation by withdrawing to the so-called Green Line, aka, the pre-1967 borders) in good faith.

[pelsar]

100. ever hear of gaza?

kind of a test case for the palestenians....with access to the world via egypt (imports and exports) and israel not involved..with greenhouses left for employment, the palestenians had an incredible chance, something they never had before to develop a society:

heres a short summary:
launched kassams the day israel left and continued with it almost daily, expanding their range and importing katuashas
destroyed much of the greenouses
attempted to blow up the main israeli/palestenians import border post
broke up gaza into sections ruled by clans, war lords and hamas and fatah areas...
scared most of the intl help out of gaza, destroyed their liquor serving resturant
continued attempts to cross the intl border and kill israelis


those are just the headlines...seems to me the idea of expanding that chaos to the westbank is probably not in the best interests of the palestenains at this point in time.

[Emit]

105. James Zogby addressed this issue today

on CSPAN. More specifically, the issue of the greenhouses and the deal Rice brokered. As he explained it, apparently there was no ability to trade -- imports/exports.

Here's a piece by him, addressing the same issue:

Gaza's only hope after the Oslo Accords were signed in 1993 was that its economy and infrastructure could be developed and opened up to the outside world. While many in the West blamed Palestinian Authority (PA) mismanagement, the facts point in a different direction. It was the persistence of the occupation from 1994-2005 that resulted in Gaza's continued stagnation. Despite "peace on paper," Israel retained an iron grip on Gaza. Settlements remained, as did the physical division of Gaza, north from south and from the rest of Palestinian lands and the outside world. Being denied access and egress meant difficulty in importing and exporting and, therefore, no economic development.

When Israel unilaterally redeployed from Gaza in 2005, the situation deteriorated even further. While Israel was able to project its removal of 7000 settlers as a "painful sacrifice for peace," by refusing to coordinate their departure with the PA or even to honor the agreement they negotiated with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (that should have guaranteed movement in and out of Gaza), Israel left behind disarray and an angry and impoverished population. By tightening their external controls on the tiny strip, Israel, in effect, created one of the world's largest prison camps. Inside Gaza, Palestinians were "free," troubled only by their own poverty and armed gangs. Like prisoners, they could have occasional visitors and receive gifts - but, for the most part, they remained cut off from the outside world.

The economy, already crippled, worsened. With Israel refusing to open Gaza's borders to goods, small Palestinian factories that had once sub-contracted with larger Israeli firms were forced to close. And this summer, tens of millions of dollars of Palestinian produce rotted at the check points because Israel refused to allow them to be exported.

With the election of Hamas in January 2006, Gaza's situation became worse still. Having been reduced to dependency on international donors for most of its operating budget, the Hamas-led PA now lost even that. Tens of thousands of civil servants (the largest group of salaried workers in the area) now receive no income. Hospitals provide only basic services, with critically-ill patients or those requiring emergency care are left untreated, unless in a moment of largesse, Israel decides to grant them admission.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0607/S00082.htm

With such divergent accounts, who are we to believe? :shrug:

edited to add, do you have a link or links for your info? Tx.

[Douglas Carpenter]

164. B'tselem should be a reliable source about the Gaza

- The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied territories -



"Gaza Prison: Freedom of Movement to and from the Gaza Strip on the Eve of the Disengagement Plan - link -

http://www.btselem.org/english/Publications/Summaries/200503_Gaza_Prison.asp

For the past four and a half years, Israel has severely restricted freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip. These restrictions further strangled the Gaza Strip, so much so that the area resembles one gigantic prison. Israel’s policies have reduced many human rights – among them the right to freedom of movement, family life, health, education, and work – to “humanitarian gestures” that Israel sparingly provides.

The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are almost completely separated from each other, and Palestinian travel between the two areas has been drastically reduced. Gazans are not allowed to enter Israel to visit relatives or to live with their spouses, and family visits by Arab citizens and residents of Israel are kept to a minimum. Israel places hardships on Palestinians wanting to leave the region, and prohibits many Palestinians from leaving. The import and export of goods is limited and often stops altogether. A small number of Gazans are allowed to work in Israel, and tens of thousands have lost their jobs.

Detachment of the Gaza Strip from the rest of the world has exacted a price from each and every Palestinian living there. The restrictions on the movement of goods and laborers has created a deep recession, the loss of work, and a dramatic deterioration in living conditions. Over the past four and a half years, the poverty rate has increased by more than 40 percent. Going abroad to obtain medical treatment or to study entails long waits. Severance of the Gaza Strip from the West Bank and Israel results in painful separation from loved ones, and in some cases the separation of children from one of their parents.

Israel’s policy did not come out of the blue, but was a response to the wave of attacks that has struck Israel and the Occupied Territories since the outbreak of the intifada. Attacks aimed at civilians are “war crimes” according to international humanitarian law and are unjustifiable in all circumstances. Israel is entitled, and required, to protect its citizens from such attacks. However, in doing so, Israel does not have the right to trample on the human rights of an entire population.

Israel implements its separation policy in a patently arbitrary and indiscriminate manner. Almost all restrictions are imposed on entire groups of people, based on sweeping criteria, without examining the threat that the individual person poses. The proof is that Israeli authorities have often chosen to reverse their refusal of a person’s request for a movement permit once an attorney or human rights organization intervenes, rather than face an embarrassing legal challenge. Most elements of Israel’s policy are illegal under international law and Israeli law.

In approving the disengagement plan, the government of Israel stated its intention to evade its responsibility for the human rights of Palestinian residents of the Gaza Strip. However, all the human rights violations discussed in this report are likely to continue, and even worsen, after disengagement.

B’Tselem and HaMoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual urge the government of Israel to end its siege policy on the Gaza Strip and to respect the right of Palestinians to freedom of


link: http://www.btselem.org/english/Maps/Index.asp


For the past four and a half years, Israel has severely restricted freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip. These restrictions further strangled the Gaza Strip, so much so that the area resembles one gigantic prison. Israel’s policies have reduced many human rights – among them the right to freedom of movement, family life, health, education, and work – to “humanitarian gestures” that Israel sparingly provides "
____________

"11 July 2006: Human rights groups to Israeli High Court: Stop the harm to the civilian population in Gaza - link:

http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20060711.asp

Today, July 11, 2006, six human rights groups petitioned the Israeli High Court demanding that the crossings in Gaza be opened to allow for the steady and regular supply of fuel, food, medicine, and equipment, including spare parts needed to operate generators.
The groups – The Association for Civil Rights in Israel, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Hamoked: Center for Defence of the Individual, B’tselem, The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel and Gisha - Center for the Legal Protection of Freedom of Movement also asked for an urgent hearing in order to prevent serious harm to the health of the civilian population, especially patients in hospital, and to prevent the breakdown of the water and sewage system in Gaza.

During the current military operation in the Gaza Strip the Israeli military has interrupted the supply of fuel to Gaza and kept Gaza's crossings mostly closed to supply of food and other humanitarian goods. The uninterrupted supply of fuel and equipment is necessary for the functioning of Gaza's health and sanitation systems, and Gaza requires a steady supply of food and medicine.

Since Gaza's power station was destroyed on June 28, there is an increased need for fuel to power the generators in Gaza and for spare parts to keep the generators running at such a high capacity. The closure of Karni Crossing has led to shortages in food at a time when, given the difficulty of obtaining electricity to prepare and refrigerate foodstuffs, Gaza requires increased shipments of dairy products, meat, flour, and other goods.

Without a steady supply of fuel and parts, hospitals cannot perform life-saving surgery and treatment plants cannot pump and treat sewage in Gaza. Gaza hospitals have reduced their activities to life-saving procedures. Since the bombing of the power plant, Gaza's water utility has been dumping 60,000 cubic meters of raw sewage into the sea each day, for lack of power and equipment to run the treatment plants, and there is concern that untreated sewage will pollute the aquifer or spill into the streets.

Because of the electricity shortages, stores in Gaza have stopped selling meat and dairy products. Trucks laden with food and medicine have been stuck at Karni Crossing, which has been closed since July 6, including 230 containers from international aid organizations.

Withholding fuel, food, and equipment from Gaza residents constitutes collective punishment, in violation of international law. The petition argues that Israel is not fulfilling its legal obligations to provide for the needs of the civilian population and to distinguish between military and civilian targets.

According to Faysal Shawa, a businessman and Gaza resident: "We have been thrown back to the way people lived 100 years ago ... We don't have water, we don't have milk for our kids."

According to Maher Najer, Deputy Director of Gaza's Water Company: "We face severe shortages in the electricity, fuel, and spare parts needed to operate Gaza's water and sewage systems. These shortages threaten to create a public health catastrophe." "

[Emit]

182. Thank you for this info n/t

[pelsar]

172. and your answer...

lies in EGYPT!!!!!!

and there lies the flaw in the whole arguement. Israel had no control over the Palestenian/Egyptian border. I could go in to details about the videos info that came late to the israeli liason office in karen shalom, which israel left but its all irrelevant.

any closure about gaza has to address the Egyptian/Palestenian border...Egypt has a ports south of gaza that can handle vegetables....Egypt in the past has sent aid in terms of over 160 trucks (donated by the egyptians...)...so what is wrong with that border?


Israel has every right to close its borders to gaza as long as they have an alternative, which they do....look on a map, gazas southern border

[Emit]

183. I think your account is an oversimplification of the matter n/t

[pelsar]

187. yes it is that simple

one could add Egyptian politics which explains why they keep their border post limited and at this point are not in a hurry to expand it...but thats not the issue. The complaints against israel is that its made gaza into a prison, its responsable for the gaza population and infact its responsable for their lack of will/ability/ etc to make something of gaza

i.e. israel is ultimatly responsable for the palestenians attacking her.

to have such an opinion means ignoring Egypts part. If Gaza is a prison/ghetto/etc, then Egypt plays a major part in that. A Humanitariun crises?....it Egypt who has kepts its border closed as much as israel. Import/Export?....the option via Egypt exists as well...

Egypt obviously doesnt want the palestenains traveling through sinai in larger groups, but it doesnt take away from their part in making the palestenains miserable. Infact after all they're "screaming" about the palestenains...this is a chance for Egypt as well as other arab countries, as well as all the others for the "propalestenians" to really do something for the palestenains.

they could put the pressure on Egypt to open the border.....what have i heard?....nothing, not a single protest to Egypt, not a single news paper article, editorial etc....now why is that?

[BayCityProgressive]

92. Also,

I would not have thought it wrong for Israel to invade southern Lebanon and create a buffer zone for international forces to patrol. Even Israel is open to this possiblity but no one is stepping up to the plate.

[theanarch]

95. i disagree...

...Israel doesn't not want a UN peace-keeping force; they want a NATO force which will fight Hezbollah FOR Israel (try reading Uri Avnery at www.counterpunch.com)

[pelsar]

93. thats far too simplistic....

how about that "honesty" you asked for?....you talk about the occupation as the source...in that case you'll have to explain arab terrorism from pre 67...unless of course you believe that all of israel is occupied, then thats something else.

furthermore, if the occupation is the source, you'll have to explain why the day israel left gaza physically..the very night and almost every night after that, israel has received kassams........did leaving gaza incense the Palestinians that much? (please note the kassams were flying before the artillery, before the sonic booms and before the helicopter missiles resumed.

did leaving lebanon piss of hizballa so much that for the last 6 years they've been attacking across the border?

and for good measure, just for fun, two questions:
should israel have ignored the kassams from gaza or do you have an acceptable suggestion for israel as to the response.

and far more interesting, if israel gives back the west bank...and given the weak Palestinian govt, and islamic jihad decides to start shooting kassams at hadera, etc, since for some groups, like hamas and islamic jihad, they want haifa and tel aviv...your suggestion to israel would be? (this is a realistic scenario)

[theanarch]

109. You want an intellectually honest and...

...realistic solution? Okay: Israel accepts and implements UN Resolution 242. Period. Until then, NOTHING will change...at least, for the better. This is the only basis on which Arab governments, and most non-state organizations (yes, including Hamas and Fatah), will accept Israel's legitimacy as a nation. If this is unacceptable to you, well, enjoy your perpetual war, because it's the only thing you have to look forward to.

[pelsar]

144. funny how you avoided my questions....

perhaps theres a reason for that?....you seem to assume that accepting 242 automatically means the various arab militias will accept israel and stop trying to kill israelis....and if they dont?

please back up to my previous posts and attempt to answer the questions as opposed to claiming you can read the future. (btw which stocks should I buy?)

[theanarch]

166. there's nothing automatic about it...

...this is simply the most commonly agreed upon basis for a settlement there is; what happens after that depends on the willingness and good faith of the parties involved. There is no "fully-guaranteed-or-your-life-back" formula here, and one can always cite "what if?" scenarios so heavily qualified with preconditions (such as your insistance the Arab/Palestinians will keep shooting in any event) that allow only one--your--answer. As for which stocks, the usual arms-makers should suffice...do a google and you'll have the exact companies in a few moments.

[pelsar]

174. and your suggestion....

which sounds to me that your "pullback to the 67 borders and all will be well" belief is much like a religion..its basis is pure belief.


what happens after that depends on the willingness and good faith of the parties involved...very good, so there is a good chance after the pullback the kassams and mortors will start flying into israeli cities..much like the pullbacks of gaza and from lebanon.....


so what if the kassams still fly after the israeli pullback...what then?....and since this is the primary question on the minds of every israeli, perhaps you can attempt to answer it?

keep in mind that from the westbank israeli cities, airports, storage facilities are all in range of kassams and mortors.

(I noticed that you still didnt answer the question....its not a trick question)

[malaise]

169. Bingo n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

176. UN Resolution 242....BOTH sides MUST implement the resolution.

NOT just Israel. Has Hamas recognized Israel as a state? Didn't think so.
UN resolutions 194 and 242

Many Palestinians and Palestinian supporters continuously quote the above two UN resolutions, and claim that these resolutions give Palestinians the right to return to the land where they "came from" (Israel proper). These claims are untrue! Please read on to understand how this is so.

To begin, we must look at the UN process in a little detail. The UN has two main components, one is a subsection of the other. The General Assembly is the body that has representation from every country in the world. The subset of that, is the Security Council which has five permanent spots (US, Russia, China, Britain and France) and ten rotating spots. General Assembly resolutions are non-binding while Security Council resolutions are binding. Now let's look at the big resolutions about Israel and the Palestinians:

Resolution 194 - This resolution deals with the right to return. It is a General Assembly resolution. Therefore, it is not binding, like every other General Assembly resolution!


Resolution 242 - This Security Council resolution (a binding resolution) has two main components:

1. Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

a. Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

b. Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

2. Affirms further the necessity:

a. For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
b. For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
c. For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones.

Resolution 338 - A security council resolution, following the Yom Kippur war of 1973, calling on both sides to begin implementation of Resolution 242.


Commentary

Resolutions 242 and 338 were unanimously approved by the Security Council and are fully binding and can be enforced by sanctions or military action (this is so because resolution 338, unlike resolution 242, was passed under Chapter 7 of the Charter, which legally bound the parties to the conflict to implement Resolution 242 in all of its parts - resolution 242 was passed under chapter 6 of the UN Charter). Statements 1b and 2c of resolution 242 are clearly the responsibility of the Arab states that don't acknowledge Israel's existence to a large extent. These resolutions were not unilateral - Israel was to pull out on the condition that the Arab responsibilities were fulfilled.

Further, resolution 194 is the document that Palestinians claim gives them the "right to return". However, in the UN, resolutions can be superseded by newer resolutions and it is obvious that claims of "right to return" in resolution 192 (1948) are superseded by section 2b of resolution 242 (1967), where the refugee problem is to be solved with a "just settlement" which is likely to include compensation, but unlikely the "right of return".

Further, if you are a logical person, you can imagine that a military pullout from "Palestinian territories" would take a matter of hours (as evidenced by the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 from Lebanon). The hate, belligerency and incitement created by the Palestinian Authority and other Arab entities against Israel and Jews would take generations to erase.

"The Occupied Territories"

In 1993, the Oslo Accords were signed, giving the PA authority over some lands: Gaza and Jericho. However, Israel was still responsible for "overall security of Israelis for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order."

Now, when Israel made peace with Jordan in 1994, the control those countries had over the West Bank was relinquished to the Israelis. Israel therefore is not occupying the West Bank!

The press commonly refers to the West Bank as "occupied territories". This simply is not true, because most of the land was never given to the authority of the PA and is therefore not occupied.

For more about this, read The Truth of 242.

United Nations Charter, Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.



http://www.middleeastfacts.com/United-Nations-UN-resolutions.php

[daydreamer]

101. Do you think any other country in the world can get away

with using a minor border incident as excuse to start an all-out war against millions of people. Plus that incident was not out of blue like the propaganda wants us the believe. There are a lot of articles disputing that claim. You just choose to ignore it.

Lebanese people are being massacred and you are blaming us for not condemning Hisb Allah (which is not true).

[gulliver]

119. I sympathize. But what is in it for me?

Is Israel a charity? That's fine, because I believe in charity, but what are they doing for us? I'm afraid that Bush's invasion of Iraq has done nothing but make Israel's position more untenable. Israeli hawks supported the invasion and maybe even helped motivate it it. Pro-Israel hawks in this country continue to be Iraq war supporters to this day (e.g. Lieberman and The New Republic). But it was a mistake.

The Sharonist Israelis wanted Bush to take out Saddam, but they have reaped a bitter harvest. They have no oil, and the forced commitment to global democracy Bush has been forced into (after the WMDs did not show up) serves to legitimize Israel's enemies.

Bush/Sharon is a complete backfire for Israel. It should have stuck with negotiations as it did under Clinton and Rabin. There would be a growing peace there now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

129. They Myth of the Generous Offer--Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

The Myth of the Generous Offer

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113
________________

There is indeed an offer for peace between Arab countries and Israel:

This specific offer was unanimously affirmed by the Arab League and immediately endorsed by the Palestinian leadership in March 2002. However, more or less the same plan has been offered by the Arab League and enthusiastically endorsed by the Palestinian leadership going back much, much longer:

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm

"The Arab Peace Initiative
(translation by Reuters).

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session, reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union."

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm
___________

[rman]

156. How does that entitle the Israeli state to 'accidentally' kill 10 times

as many Muslim civilians as "terrorist" kill Israeli citizens?

What's there to defend about targeting residential areas, fleeing civilians, ambulances and UN posts?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

170. To list some places where you're wrong:

"No civilization on Earth had ever given Jews equal rights at the time that Israel was formed, so there was good reason for Zionism and the creation of Israel."

Simply not true.


"Israel has proven that it will trade land for peace. They offered Palestine , in line with UN resolutions, 96% of the pre-1967 borders and 30 billion dollars in aid for a peace treaty and a recognition for a Jewish state to exist in Israel and Arafat answered that by saying no and launching more terror attacks, so who is the real murderer and oppressor here?"

This (quite apart from what I'm willing to believe was a simple mistake, confusing "pre 1967" with "post 1967") is a deliberate attempt to obscure the facts, and frankly contemtible. What Israel offered involved involved Israel maintaining sovereignty of most of the most fertile land in the West Bank, including most of the aquifers, in exchange for worthless land; it involved the Israelis having the ability to control movements between the Palestinian population centres while Palestine was crisscrossed with Israeli "throughfares"; it involved Israeli control of nearly all of Jerusalem; it refused to take any responsibility for the refugees Israel created through it's ethnic cleansing during its foundation. The greater murderer, and the only oppressor here is, very clearly, Israel.

Far from having proven that it is willing to trade land for peace, Israel has proven that it isn't, at least not yet.


"Also, if you want to side with a real underdog look at Israel, the size of New Jersey with only 6 million inhabitants surrounded by nations who don't recognize it's existance."

... and not merely support, but unqualified support no matter what atrocities it perpetrates, from most of the rest of the world, especially America; and overwhelming military superiority. Again, this is a deliberate and contemptible attempt to disort the facts.



This post is merely a repetition of the same tired old lies and distortions that Israel's apologists have been using to try and justify its atrocitities for years. Some genuine facts are:-

:- Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and has no intention of ceasing to do so.

:- Israel is using force against civilian populations to inspire terror.

:- Israel could have had peace any time it wanted up until the death of Arafat but chose not to do so because it prefered to continue the occupation. It might well not still be too late, if Israel were willing to make the "concessions" it ought to, although I worry that it may finally have achieved what it's wanted for so long, and be able to honestly claim that it "does not have a partner for peace", because there is no longer any one figure able to negotiate with authority.

[laura888]

173. Thanks for your enlightening post. n/t

[Harper_is_Bush]

177. Read your first line.

"I have read many posts here calling Israel "Zionist" "Nazis" and "evil""

Many Israelis do not consider it an insult to be Zionist. They are proud Zionists.

As for the other two labels you snuck in, show me a single post where Israel has been called "Nazis" or "evil". Perhaps you confused a labeling of actions with the labeling of a nation.

I consider the current actions, especially the denial of a 72-hour cease fire, to be evil.

[Spinoza]

185. Excellent post.

Here is what I wrote today on another post, which though it dealt more directly with the specific issue of anti-Semitism, also applies to criticism of Israel and double standards:

Double standards exclusively applied against Israel and Israelis is objectively anti-semitic (all its effects are anti-semitic) even if the propounders are not themselves subjectively anti-semitic. (i.e. they don't feel any personal bigotry or hatred against Jews per se.) This form of anti-semitism was applied by many 'good' Germans against Jews in the 1930s who--genuinely-- did not feel the race hatred of the Nazis, or the religious hatred of the European peasants of old, but none-the-less used the excuse that criticism of Jews was justified in some instances. ("Well, one can't denty that 'they' ARE 'rich', 'unduly influential', 'clannish' etc.") The substitution of Zionist or Israeli for Jew, even if its sincere, does not exempt the user from anti-semitism.

It should not need to be said that I am NOT saying that criticism of Israel, in itself, is anti-semitic. Even a cursory review of Israeli opinion shows constant public criticism, by Israelis, of almost EVERY aspect of Israeli culture and society, most expecially including foreign affairs. I venture to say there is more open criticism of Israel by Israelis than of the U.S. by Americans. (In great contrast to Israel's neighbors where public criticism of their own societies is, to say the least, limited.)

However, what IS anti-semitic is the constant double standards applied against Israel, the use of vicious, factually ridiculous tropes like comparing Israel, a nation of refugees who were the supreme victims of Nazi terror (2 million Jewish children under the age of 14 gassed) to Nazis; talk of Jewish 'cabals' (neocons?) Jewish 'power'; statements that Israel, alone among the nations of the world, has no right to exist, etc. Yes, some Jews make these statements and they are anti-semites. (By the way, the word 'anti-semitism' was first coined in the late 19th century by a German bigot who used the word only to denote hatred of Jews. It has nothing to do with Arabs or 'semitic' peoples in general.)

For a leftist perspective on left anti-semitism and double standars: snip>

"Exactly a year ago my trade union the AUT, voted to exclude Israelis at two universities from the global academic community (the campaigners saw this as a step to excluding everyone connected to an Israeli university). We were not supposed to include research or ideas from these blacklisted academics in our journals. These banned persons were not to be invited to conferences. We were not supposed to visit these universities. These punitive measures were proposed against Israeli academics but not against academics that worked in any other country that had a bad human rights record.

We were to continue dealing as normal with academics from the US, even though their state was responsible for the illegal prison camps at Guantanamo, even though their forces had been involved in the assault on Falluja, even though American soldiers were involved in the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody called for an international boycott of UK universities because of Britain's collaboration with these US projects. Nobody currently wants to boycott British and American academics because their states are turning a blind eye to genocide in Darfur.

Nobody asked us to exclude any other academics from the international community; not scholars from North Korea, Zimbabwe, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Sudan - or any of the many other states with human rights records worse than that of Israel"<snip

>snip "Aha! I hear you say. There is the slippage. This was not a boycott of Jews but a boycott of Israelis, of Zionists. If we say "Zionist" rather than "Jew" then its not anti-semitic is it?"<snip

>snip" Nobody in the campaign to ban Israeli artists, thinkers, writers, teachers, students and musicians hates Jews. But they nevertheless support a policy that is anti-semitic in effect."

Read the whole article. Its quite good. http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/david_hirsh/2006/04...

[rug]

186. Did this happen?

The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel

On 14th February, 1948 The British Mandate Government withdrew
from Palestine. On the same day, Mr. David Ben Gurion
proclaimed the establishment of the state of Israel and the
return of the Jewish people to he called “his historical
land”. 

The following is the text “The Declaration of the
Establishment of the State of Israel”. 

- snip -

"The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration
and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the
development of the country for the benefit of all its
inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as
envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete
equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants
irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee
freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and
culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions;
and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of
the United Nations."

 

[watercolors]

191. here is NO defense for Iseral!

No F---ing one!!!!