Hezbollah finally wakes up and sees their actions are causing bloodshed

[SammyBlue]

Hezbollah politicians back peace package
By SAM F. GHATTAS
Associated Press Writer
51 minutes ago

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Hezbollah politicians, while expressing reservations, have joined their critics in the government in agreeing to a peace package that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.

The agreement — reached after a heated six-hour Cabinet meeting — was the first time that Hezbollah has signed onto a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces.

The package falls short of American and Israeli demands in that it calls for an immediate cease-fire before working out details of a force and includes other conditions.

But European Union officials said Friday the proposals form a basis for an agreement, increasing the pressure on the United States to call for a cease-fire.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_peace_package

BUT.. .

Hezbollah fires new rockets into Israel
By KATHY GANNON
Associated Press Writer
53 minutes ago

TYRE, Lebanon - Hezbollah launched a new kind of rocket Friday that made its deepest strike into
Israel yet, rattling Israelis as their warplanes and artillery blasted apartment buildings and roads gunning for guerrillas.

Lebanese officials said about 12 civilians died in the day's fighting; Israel said it killed 26 militants, raising to about 230 the total number killed in the campaign.

Hezbollah's launching of the new weapon unnerved Israelis, 500,000 of whom are already living in northern shelters because of rocket bombardments. The rocket firing was also likely to escalate a conflict now in its 18th day, with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (OP's opinion: STAY AWAY YOU FUCKING COW!!! YOU ALWAYS TO MORE HARM THAN GOOD!!!)heading back to the Middle East this weekend to make a second attempt to resolve the crisis.

The guerrillas said they used the Khaibar-1 — named after the site of a historic battle between Islam's Prophet Muhammad and Jewish tribes in the Arabian peninsula — to strike the Israeli town of Afula.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060729/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

So, the politicians agree, but their militants don't. Hmmmmmmm?

editted to add links

[greyl]

1. A lot can change in two minutes. ;) nt

[Porcupine]

2. It's a good thing the Israeli't are all innocent as newborn lambs....

NOt.

[Rex]

3. IMO Hezbollah needs to become part the Lebanese Army.

Then, if they attack anybody it becomes an obvious act of war by a sovereign nation. Milita groups can be repatriated and given a purpose, anything to stop the killing on both sides.

[Clarkie1]

21. That's a good idea. nt

[sandnsea]

4. The Lebanese politicians may agree

I've got my doubts on whether Israel will agree to anything before disarmament and an international force. But getting them talking is a very good step forward.

[alcibiades_mystery]

7. Israel couldn't even take Bin Jemail

They're looking for an exit plan.

[Xeric]

5. And when do you suppose......

Israel will wake up and realize their actions are causing bloodshed?

Last night you stated: "I'm done posting in these type of threads. If physics allowed, I'd go through my T1 connection throttle people (sic). It's postings and people like the ones who post anti-Israel thread and firs turned me on to the JDL (sic).
As far as I am concerned, Israel has not gone far enough."

So you seem to advocate violence to everybody that doesn't agree with you (I don't, and I'm a Jew) and also state an affinity with the JDL, a violent, racist orginization that advocates ethnic cleansing. How do you think you have the moral high ground here?

Those of us who believe that Israel is committing war crimes in no way also advocate attacks on Israel, despite the canards perpetrated by right wing likud types.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xeric]

10. Sammy's "logic" escapes me

And it might explain why we are at the impasse we see now.
Neither side is rational. Neither side is capable of seeing a reasonable solution to the problem.
This is where blind hate and bigotry takes you. We've seen this so many times in human history.
Anybody have a solution?
The passion of nationalism, excessive religiosity, and racism always end up with the same result.
When will the human race realize this? Before it's to late or after?

[Tom Joad]

13. xeric. it is the logic of someone who supports a very violent hate

group. And does it openly. on the Democratic Underground. Such chutzpah.
See for example:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=123
or even from the ADL
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Teror_92/4016_72.htm

[theHandpuppet]

32. Too late, I fear

To be honest, xeric, I'm feeling rather hopeless about any prospects for peace -- ever.

[Tom Joad]

8. Israel kills over 600 civilians and it is the fault of Hezbollah?

Destroys tens of thousands of homes. displacing 700,000 people. Not to mention bombing and starving Gaza. Not to mention announcing that they will permanently annex parts of the West Bank. Not to mention that Israel has a history of displacing hundreds of thousands of Arabs, who were never allowed to return to their homeland. This is supposedly Hezbollah's fault?

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Yes

If Hezbollah had not fired hundreds of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians, then I don't think Israel would have attacked. They are cleaning out a hornets nest of heavily-armed (>10,000 missiles) people who have advertised that their goal is to destroy Israel and slaughter all Jews throughout the world.

It's a sad, sad situation.

[Tom Joad]

12. Manny, they cleaned out all these places of Arabs. You don't see a

pattern? Israel really acts on its extremism It has vowed to target anyone left in south lebanon.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/28/wmid28.xml

[MannyGoldstein]

17. It's Terrible. But There it is.

This situation is awful. All of the solutions are awful.

That the situation is where it is proves that the players have done the wrong thing in the past.

But we are here, and it is now. How to proceed? Which of the awful alternatives to pick?

If the Lebanese are a sovereign nation, then they have to keep the people within its borders from attacking people outside of its borders. Hezbollah, armed with 10,000 or more missiles, is a growing threat to Israel. Unlike, Iraq, which was a sewer - but was minding its own business - Hezbollah is heavily armed, and continues to build up arms, and use them on Israel. And their leaders have sworn to destroy Israel, and to slaughter all Jews. That's bad, bad stuff.

We are here and it is now, and what must be done to prevent a greater evil, must be done.

However, we are here because of the rage of people who have been denied a future, and denied control over their own destiny. I am hopeful - but not holding my breath - that after this debacle passes, Israel, the US, and the rest of the world community will work to build a future for the average Abdul and Abia that ends all of this bad craziness.

This is yeat another reason that we need to elect people who strive for the Four Freedoms, instead of the Four Horsemen.

[bornskeptic]

14. Do you have any proof that

"Hezbollah had not fired hundreds of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians" before Israel attacked Lebanon? As far as I know, the only rockets fired into Israel until then were fired at IDF troop positions along the border. If that is not the case, I'd appreciate being corrected.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MannyGoldstein]

20. Why Are You Certain He's An Anti-Semite?

Maybe he is an anti-semite - or maybe he's just asking a qustion?

I'm having a difficult time finding the answer to the question - Googling for anything in the Middle East right now seems to only produce recent stuff. But I did find this interesting link, which says, among other things:

"The vulnerability of the Israeli economy to a Hezbollah rocket attack was demonstrated by events in 1996 when the group fired over 500 Katyushas into northern Israel; Israeli officials placed the cost of the relatively minor two-week assault at approximately US$100 million."

[bornskeptic]

23. Thanks. It really was an honest question.

I'm sure that the attacks on Tiberias and Haifa were after the bombing of the Beirut airport, because I recall the comments of surprise from some commentators that Hezbollah rockets could reach that far. I don't know, though, whether there were previous attacks on Nahariyya or other northern Israeli cities. I, like you, couldn't find anything conclusive one way or the other.

[Ms. Clio]

22. you know very well that's a personal attack and against the rules

hope you enjoy your constant little outbursts.

[Solo_in_MD]

26. The rockets are essentially unaimed and are area weapons.

Claiming they were only aimed at the IDF troop positions is specious

[Freedom_Aflaim]

25. When a bank robber gets shot in the course of his crime

Its the bank robbers fault for getting shot...not the police.

If the police shoot at the bank robber, miss and hit a patron, the bank robber gets charged with murder.

Hezbolla has only themselves to blame for the destruction of Lebanon.

[magellan]

29. The police will avoid shooting in that situation

The cases where what you say happens are the exception, not the rule. No police officer worth his/her salt will shoot at a criminal if s/he can't get a clean shot. Otherwise they'd have a better record of taking out armed criminals...and there'd be a lot more wounded and dead civilians around.

It's the criminals who shoot without concern for civilians, not the police.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

30. Understood, but it still happens.

albeit very rarely.

I'll give you a better example

A few years ago some local dumbass refused to pull over (for speeding) and a high speed pursuit ensued.

An officer, several miles from the scene raced to intercept the chase in progress, and in doing so went through a red light and T-Boned a uninvolved motorist with the worst result possible, the uninvolved motorist was killed.

The speeder/flee-er was charged and convicted of a variety of crimes including homocide. Naturally the convicted appealed on the basis that he wasnt even near the accident scene, and that the police were partly to blame poor procedures/driving skills, and that even the innocent motorist beared some responsibility for not heeding the sirens etc.

In the end, the conviction held. The speeder in this case took a series of steps which led to an innocents death at the hand of another.

Now I grant you that we are getting a bit off topic, but I think its somewhat analogous to the situation in Lebanon/Israel.

If Hezbolla had not broke the peace via their actions, missiles would not be raining down on Lebanon today. While all partys to war bear responsibile for the result, I believe that the instigator/aggressor bears the most for breaking the peace.

[magellan]

31. I understand what you're trying to say

But I don't think this is analogous to I/L except in that both sides are behaving criminally. Clearly Hezbollah don't give a rip about killing civilians -- it's their goal, and so they can only be loathed by sane, rational-thinking people.

Israel meanwhile is not taking the care that one would expect of a civilized nation. When they knowingly bomb civilian areas to get to Hezbollah, the resulting deaths occur by their choice, not by accident.

As long as Israel continues to offer the savage excuse that it's their enemies' fault it killed some innocent people, then they have lost the moral prerogative...not only in my eyes but where it counts: in the eyes of those left to suffer the human loss and destruction.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. No, that's not true.

If the police are reckless when shooting and kill civilians then they are legally (and morally) responsible, I'm fairly sure.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. This is Precisely Why Israel is in S. Lebanon

The Hezbollah militias are not controlable by the Lebanese - possibly not by anyone else. But someone has got to stop them from attacking Israel - so the Israelis are doing it themselves.

[Teaser]

16. Except Israel is losing to Hezbollah

a second time.

[Teaser]

15. You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?

Hezbollah is doing this because they're pretty much beating Israel. The ceasefire, as such, cements their victory with no real concessions from them. And advocating for it makes them look like winners dictating terms.

They also know Israel cannot and will not accept their terms, which will make Hezbollah look like a party that at least attempted peace.

Please, leave policy analysis to the adults.

[Solo_in_MD]

28. Not sure you do either

Hezbollah is doing this because they're pretty much beating Israel. The ceasefire, as such, cements their victory with no real concessions from them. And advocating for it makes them look like winners dictating terms.

Hezbollah is pretty much beating Israel? Check your settings on that one. Israel has been walking a fine line and has been doing the attack/destroy/pull back dance reasonably well. UNIFIL are concerned that they will stop doing that, and at least in Tyre, just flatten it to stop the rocket attacks. That they have not yet done that, means that in their (Israeli) view that they are reaching their objectives. The thing to watch out for is when they start wholesale demolition. For those of you who think that is already happening, you have not seen anything yet.

Please, leave policy analysis to the adults.

And you need to leave the military analysis to the pros


I am not agreeing with what Israel is doing, but some of the military conclusions offered here as facts are down right silly and need to be treated as such

[Clarkie1]

19. If a wedge can be driven between Hezbollah politicians and the miltia

that is a very good thing. Will the Hezbollah polticians condemn the latest rocket attacks by the Hezbollah militia?

[Solo_in_MD]

27. About the same way Sinn Fein condemed the Provos

[smacky44]

33. The people will be on the side of the militia.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

24. Cease fire in that region is defined as ...

The time that you set aside to rebuild your stockpile of arms.