Shooting Jewish women as Sabbath begins...

[PCIntern]

I would like to make a point without everyone starting with the 'cycle of violence' material.

It is not an anecdotal or random bit of evidence that many attacks both here and in Israel, Argentina, as well as other Jewish enclaves, occur on the Sabbath (Friday evening and most of the day Saturday) or on High Holidays - that is Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Of course, the Yom Kippur War speaks for itself.

This is more than an attack - it is an ignominious attack upon Jews and Judaism. I do recall during the Gulf War I how we had to be so careful vis-a-vis the Muslim sensibilities regarding their holy days and fasts. It is a Western Convention that we have rules of war, rules of engangement, and levels of understanding that combatants serve their country/cause at the pleasure of the senior officers and elected officials/monarchs/dictators who ostensibly run their respective countries/movements.

Now the difference here is that the terrorists do not, and never have, played by these rules. They look to capitalize upon the perceived weaknesses of their victims - going to religious services, going to a community center for recreation or to pick up their child from religious school or pre-school, or for other business. The very notion of attacking women and children directly in order to give one pause is not original nor is it effective, except to galvanize the radical element on the other side. We often read about the sentiment of the "Arab Street", well, make no mistake about it, there is a sentiment within the "Jewish Street" which is one of frustration and growing anger at the co-equaliztion of the societies comprising Israel on one hand and Hezbollah and Hamas on the other. that is as absurd as saying that the United States and the American Communist Party or the late Symbionese Liberation Army are equal in their stature, as they squared off against each other. It just isn't in the cards for radical movements to violently overthrow elected democracies when those democracies are strong. Israel's existence is a done deal.

Now for the sake of argument, what would have happened if a Jewish fellow walked into a school in say, Syria, and shot women in the stomach? Would he be taken into custody, given a mental status examination, and stand trial by jury for his actions? The question would be how many pieces would he have been cut into before they removed the carcass from the school. Would there be a message board somewhere asking his motives and making excuses? Doubtful. A few of the posts last night which were excised by the moderators on the Seattle shooting thread were so repulsive that it physically made me ill. We are supposed to be of a higher intellectual order - I hope we do better in the coming weeks.

[papau]

1. Well said :-)

n/t

[smacky44]

2. Sadly (and we are ALL going to pay), it's called "reaping the whirlwind."

[barb162]

136. Yes. Voters aren't going to go along

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. I do not say this lightly

The events of the past few weeks have revealed the soft underbelly of Democratic Underground. It is festering and sick and alligned with evil. If it is truly the direction the Democratic Party is moving towards, we are done for and will never take the Republicans out of office. Never. Unless we attempt to do it with guns, and even then, we would lose.

We have come to the boiling point in what is essentially a cultural conflict. While it is necessary to be open-minded and accepting and tolerant of the differences in cultures and creeds, there are simply certain behaviors that we must identify as wrong. Evil. And just like the horrible old hymn that scared the crap out of me as a kid, 'Once to every Man and Nation comes a moment to decide."

The hymn is not talking about God as much as it is about evil. We have no problem identifying evil in the White House. Why can't we call a spade a spade when we see it on the streets and in the videos we get?

I'm sure I will get flamed for this, and that's okay. But I've looked at my moment to decide and made my decision. Israel is not a country of saints. But they are a race that was purposefully exterminated even after 2000 years of holding together with no country. The actions taken by those whose hate Jews, above all else, and use that as their prime directive... they are wrong.

[PCIntern]

4. Your eloquence is appreciated

and many of us are wondering if, after all this is over, if we'll be able to join forces again to discuss what's going on in DC and the rest of the political landscape.

The vitriol against the democracy of Israel is just stunning.

My Mother and Father of blessed memory waarned me that this would happen as a liberal. I did believe them, but I don't believe that I was prepared for the visceral viciousness.

[theHandpuppet]

7. Eloquence?

"The events of the past few weeks have revealed the soft underbelly of Democratic Underground. It is festering and sick and alligned with evil."

Nice.

:eyes:

[Zynx]

9. It also happens to be true.

[Mr_Spock]

53. I'm missing the point here

Where has this "evil" been exposed?

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. Where? How 'bout these posts?

They have been deleted so don't ask me to 'prove it' because MANY here witnessed them. Of course all those who witnessed them are pro-Israel. NONE of the anti-Israel crowd ever recalls 'evil' posts.

"Hell YES! I support Hezbollah!"

"Hezbollah is NOT unjustified in what they are doing."

A thread calling for the destruction of Israel

A thread asking people "If there was a war between Israel and the U.S., which side would YOU support?"

2 threads posting Pat Buchanan's Op-Ed pice...the biggest BIGOT to ever walk the earth and a KNOWN antisemite.

I have had people tell me Israel shouldn't even exist and quickly throw the Balfour Declaration in my face...MORE TIMES THAN I CARE TO COUNT.

How's that for just a few examples of the evil underbelly of DU?

[Mr_Spock]

95. I wasn't asking for a few posts with anger in them

I can find those any day here on any subject.

I was kind of curious about the evil here on DU.

A broad-brush accusation about the character of all DUers based on the comments of the few is not a rational argument.

Who decides for all of us?

Should those who want an open discourse and who don't believe DU is inherently evil be on the defensive?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

113. "The soft underbelly"

is, by nature, only a part of the animal. It is not the whole animal. I find DU to be a place of exceptional love and tolerance. However, there are those who hate because of race/creed. They exist. And the mods do a great job of deleting their posts when they come up. This week has found more and more of those posts appearing. Many have very low post counts. Some do not.

I posted recently about going to Berkeley and being astonished to find there blatant signs (grafitti, posters, hand outs) of the worst kind of anti-semitism. This was not just an isolated thing. It is a stench that fills the place. Perhaps it is because there are many Muslim students enrolled. I don't know why. If you do a Google on Berkeley anti-semitism you will find many hits (from both sides of the blogosphere) that verify this. I always thought of Berkeley as the epicenter of tolerance. Something has happened. And I see it here. This is not disagreeing with a county's actions. This is not saying Israel should "cut the shit" (to paraphrase He Who Shall Not Be Named) or pull back farther of come up with a cease fire, or even that they should grin and bear it. These folks blame all the ills of the world on the Jews and pledge to kill them all. Think Munich, 1972. There are people who think Jews have no right to live. Anywhere.

And I feel there is no place for that here on DU. And evidently the mods agree.

[fujiyama]

120. I've noticed some odd posts in the last several months

For example, if you happen to even post that Ahmedeijad is an anti-Semite, you get accused of believing "mistranslations" or "propaganda"...or you "want to bomb Iran", or "are a PNACer or neocon"...

I've read some posts that repeat Hezbollah talking points, as though they are a PR firm for them: Hezbollah is a "liberating force", nevermind that if they could have it their way they'd kick out all the Christians from Lebanon as well or that Hezbollah was the only militia to not disarm...

Or that Israel is "unique" in its violation of human rights...or recieving of US military aid or occupation of land after a war...or that it's "artificial". People that believe that Israel "has no right to exist" and that the Jews should be dispersed again likely are antiSemites or are good at denying reality...

Now I have PR like posts on the other side as well though. I've seen disingenous accusations of anti-Semitism as well: If you believe that Israel should not recieve billions in aid, or if you criticize the extent to which they're destroting the civilian infrastructure and killing civilians, etc. then "you wouldn't mind watching Israel destroyed"...or that every attack is in "defending itself from terrorists".

But there is a new Anti-Semitism on the extreme left. That is undeniable. Like that of RW anti-Semitism it springs from ignorance and no perspective of history. It's disguised as "Anti Zionism" and concern for human rights. But often, I notice this "concern for human rights" is pretty shallow. They are often ignorant of other conflicts around the world and have a simplistic worldview that all Muslims are victims of the racist Iraelis.

[Mr_Spock]

125. I agree with the mods deleting of hateful posts too.

What I am most interested in how this "underbelly" is any different than the population as a whole (as I describe in my post # 60 below).

I am not sure why you have chosen to use broad-brush arguments instead of simply isolating the "evil" people like we always do here on DU. In the past we called these attacks "Freeper raids" (or something to that effect) - why would we not treat this most recent very controversial issue any differently?

I am not interested in Berkley's or DU's minority as Representative of the majority. I do not see why you have chosen this tact? I agree with your point about the mods doing a good job, but I vehemently disagree with your broad-brush implications concerning DU (or Berkley for that matter). Since when do a few nut-jobs represent the majority?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

144. Obviously I chose a metaphor that has been misinterpretted

Soft underbelly is a fraction. It is something you don't see until you roll the animal over and look for it. It is something not immediately apparent. All can look well until you dig deeper and look more carefully. It is not in the least broadbrushing. As a matter of fact it is the opposite.

I have seen bigotry before on DU. . I see folks call C. Rice a house niggah, and I see folks accuse Ann Couter of being transgendered as if that were shameful. I see the words hillbilly and redneck thrown around with disdain and see the south maligned and southern dialects equated with stupidity. I'm used to all that. The folks who do that are, I have figured out, young and ... not the sharpest crayon in the box.

But the level of antisemitic posts in the past week has been disturbing and it has been serious enough to result in continued deleting.

And I have never said they represent the majority. Never. I suppose maybe we should should pretend they aren't there.... not mention them, not look for patterns in thought and behavior. We don't need to think it could affect us as a political party becauswe DU is closed, private, and never quoted. And no way is DU a microcosm of the party or its direction.

So don't worry, all is well. Never happened. You will now be returned to your regular programming.

[Mr_Spock]

146. "You will now be returned to your regular programming"

I'm sorry you are feeling defensive about the post now. I clearly stated that we should treat this latest invasion as a 'Freeper raid' which requires a very active response. Your wise crack "all is well, Never happened." is a slight to all of the good people here on DU who have been disgusted by the bigotry - though I have not been active in enough of these threads to see much of it before it was deleted anyway. You are acting like you have a higher view of the situation and nobody is quite up to your level. 'Soft underbelly' implies that this is the true nature of many the folks here (a weakness that is hidden) and has a very strong negative connotation. You also used the word 'evil' in the same sentence as 'DU'. I do not take these inferences lightly, perhaps you have overstated your case a bit. I accept your desire to back away from this with your diversionary argument above.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

149. You frame your thoughts well

and we shall have to agree to disagree. I am actually not defensive about my post, simply on the metaphor I chose which appears to means something different to you than to me. My apologies to any who were injured or insulted as I went about what appears to be my customary pot stirring. I will put the spoon away now.

I see I have overstayed my welcome. I will try to heed my own advice and repeat the following to myself as a mantra:

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Life is so, so short.

I wish you all the best in yours.

Jen aka TallahasseeGrannie

[catmother]

151. well said grannie.

[Zhade]

131. "Perhaps it is because there are many Muslim students enrolled."

Don't you see how racist THAT statement is? As if *all* Muslims hate Jews and/or Israel.

You know better than that - hell, there are Muslim DUers, and I know they don't hate Jews or want them dead.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

143. I knew when I wrote it that it could be interpretted as racist

but Zhade, don't you think sometimes we have to stop being politically correct and call it like it is? Is it not reality that there is great hate for the Jews among some Muslim students? Of course not ALL of them and I didn't say all. But I was trying to understand WHY Berkeley would have such an antisemitic problem. Is it the business community? Probably not. Old hippies? Maybe, but we're kind of wearing out. Students? I think now we're narrowing it down. Perhaps I should have said Palestinian students or Arab students rather than Muslim students. But this is a problem on campuses. My husband teaches at our local university and sees it a lot. They are constantly on the lookout for antisemitic posters, flyers, and they try and keep a lid on it. He's received numerous directiives from the administration about this. And yes, there are other indicators of hate. There are anti-Arab sentiments, but not on campus so much and certainly not in the same numbers as the anti-semitic slurs coming from the left on our campuses

You know me better than to think I would broadbrush an entire cultural/religious group. But something is happening. I am just trying to point it out. I sometimes feel that here on DU we aren't allowed to try and make sense of it, figure it out, because it is more politically sensitive to pretend it doesn't exist.

I have no solution... so I'll shut up now.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

132. Good Job With The Facts In_cog_ni_to. Course, That's Why I Consider You

to be a consistent gem of DU.

[k_jerome]

134. those posts and countless others...

it is disturbingly widespread. and then everyone gets together and piles on mel gibson. i guess because he said "jews" instead of "zionists"

[jonnyblitz]

13. no kidding.

:puke: no further comment.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theHandpuppet]

68. And the point of this is?????

Why do you write that phonetically in dialect? Any particular reason?

[PCIntern]

70. Yes...

the reason is that the autho of that post was accused of being less than eloquent. I wanted to accomodate the accuser and rewrite the post - without the author's permission - to reflect expectations of illiteracy.

It was a JOKE of sorts...

[theHandpuppet]

73. Are all your jokes racist?

This was written in dialect, not written as an example of illiteracy. I found it disgusting, not funny.

[PCIntern]

74. Racist...

to what race are you referring? Deliberately misspelling words in a post to feign illiteracy is racist?

...and that's your interpretation of why I wrote that - I resent that bitterly. You've sunk ot a real low if that's your intention...

[theHandpuppet]

77. There's a big difference between feigning illiteracy...

... and writing in dialect, and yours is penned in a phonetic interpretation of some Caribbean dialects. You can argue this all you want, but it's either classist or racist. You decide. Your post speaks for itself.

[PCIntern]

79. Carribbean?

What are you kidding me?

Carribbean? I used to teach school and kids in Bucks County PA used to spell that way. And they were all white. Sorry to disappoint you. Much too much projection on your part.

Nice try to invalidate me, however.

[theHandpuppet]

80. You invalidated yourself

Live with it.

[PCIntern]

82. Outrageous libel on your part...

How dare you...

This entire situation has reached a new low. Let's review: someone who has been an ardent supporter of the Progressive movement for 45 years, who has been a staunch defender of DU and active poster and McGovern Democrat, who has apparrently chosen the 'wrong' side of the conflict is now vanquished because one poster decided that some misspelled words, deliberately done so to amplify a point, were 'racist'. So you say.

I believe that there are ramifications for your calling me a racist...we'll see.

[theHandpuppet]

86. I found your joke to be racist

...or at best, classist. Whether or not you intended it that way is something you will have to decide, but simply denying that it was offensive doesn't cut it.

If you wish to have me banned from this board, so be it, if that will make you feel as if you have "vanquished" (your word) a poster who has dared to question you.

"This entire situation has reached a new low. Let's review: someone who has been an ardent supporter of the Progressive movement for 45 years, who has been a staunch defender of DU and active poster and McGovern Democrat..."

Well that sounds a lot like me, PCIntern. I don't particularly like be lumped in with the "festering, evil underbelly of DU" either, but there you go. This has nothing to do with being "on the wrong side of the conflict" and that is a presumption on your part intended to deflect my criticism of the original post, which had to do with generalizations and labeling people evil. The OP was all about taking sides and I'm on the side of peace in the ME.

[PCIntern]

98. You know...

it really is interesting to see the progression here.

You called em a racist, a charge at which I took seriously because I'm not. Then you changed it to classist...OK, where I come form we had the dese, dem and dose folks. They spoke poorly because they were raised in homes where there was no literacy. The poster had written what I termed an eloquent post. Someone took issue with that...I rewrote the post the way I bleived an illiterate would write the post in a half-hearted attempt to be humorous. There was no 'racial' intent, I at first had no idea what you were even talking about. Of course, after years of teaching at Penn, I quickly realized that this was just one more case of the R word being flung.

I have no interest in 'banning' anyone, especially those with whom I disagree. I don't like the fact that there's no benefit of any doubt anymore here and I have certainly been one to put up with a lot of crap flung my way over the past 3 weeks which I have let go, and will continue to do so. Freedom of expression is paramount and we should all know why we're here and not at hte Free Republic board, right?

[theHandpuppet]

103. Yes, there's a lot of irony about

Yes, I stated that I found your "joke" racist. If that was an example of your attempt at feigning illiteracy then it was a poor one, for it written more as a dialect than an example of misspellings. I will take you at your word, then, that it was not your intent to feign a real dialect because only you are privy to your own motives or intentions. For your part, you should realize just how that post (not to mention some which followed) came off not just to me but to some other posters here.

Furthermore, to adopt a mocking imitation of what "poor people" talk like is a bit classist, don't you think? A lack of education does not mean a person lacks intelligence or judgment, or cannot express themselves in an eloquent manner. There is much more to eloquence than proper grammar. Messages of intolerance, no matter how beautifully wrapped, could never be called "eloquent" in my book and therein lies the difference in our interpretations.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen people here use the word "hillbilly" (usually accompanied by a word such as stupid) as a slur yet it is still one of the few bigoted labels that is free from being censored here. Well I'm a hillbilly who grew up in Brunner Hollow and who's daddy was born at Raccoon Creek in Pike County, KY. My mother, whose family were German Jewish immigrants, grew up in abject poverty in a shack next to the railroad tracks, the kind of poverty that made my hillbilly kin look rich. And you know what? They may not have been the most highly educated folks nor the richest, but they were of keen minds, compassionate hearts and a true moral compass. I take exception to what I perceive as the mocking of others based on class, religion, ethnicity or race. All of these are poisonous to us as members of the human race and widen the divisions which lead to conflict. On a wider scale it provides the same underpinnings which lead to the violent conflicts we now see all over the world.

Finally, I'm on the side of peace, period, and against the wars in the ME. There can be no "winners" here and when innocents are killed in such conflicts, no matter their nationality, religion or ethnicity, we ALL lose.

[PCIntern]

104. You're right about a lot of things...

Being classist, as you say, is not one of them. I personally found the post in question 'eloquent' - my opinion. What I meant by that is that the poster wrote in lyrical, flowing language, making a cogent argument. When someone stated that it wasn't eloquent, I took issue and wrote something which would have been written by someone who was not 'eloquent'. It has nothing to do with class: the conservative humorist P.J. O'Rourke once noted that brains and 'class' have no correlation with money: that some of the dumbest and most frightening people you can find reside in Beverly Hills, but in Russia, where philosophy and chess are spectator sports and the people speak three languages well, they're boiling rocks to make soup.

I come from what would be termed a 'poor' background, brought up in a home by a single parent long before it was in vogue to be from one of those. My parents, both brilliant people couldn't get alon...much like some here at DU. But they imparted one bit of information to me which I never forgot. Do not ever judge someone's character by their background or deportment.

And I'm all for peace too. As one poster said, if the HEzbollah would lay down their weaposn, there would be peace...if the Israelis did, there'd be genocide.

Peace to you, however.

[theHandpuppet]

105. Peace to you as well

As far as what will lead to peace in the broader sense, we will have to respectfully disagree.

[PCIntern]

106. Acknowledged...n/t

[TallahasseeGrannie]

118. Dear Mr. Handpuppet

I have searched your posts and found no evidence that you are part of the soft underbelly of DU. I think perhaps you have no idea the level of hate I am referring to. As I said, many have low post counts and are probably trolls. But there have been some ugly, ugly things said lately. And they are all gone. I happened to be on the computer most of yesterday and I had a DU window running and was actively keeping up with things. It was very, very rough.

You have every right to criticize Israel. I am not a student of ME affairs and feel my opinion is not sufficiently informed. I have no idea how to solve the problem. But I celebrate your right to criticize any entity you choose. Criticism and hate are not even on the same page.

T-G

[theHandpuppet]

130. I've read hateful comments on both sides of this debate

I find both distressing, but consider many or most of such posts to have been made either by trolls or folks who have nothing better to do than to start flame wars. So yes, I know what you are talking about but some folks, in trying to address this issue, actually can make things much worse when charges are scattered shotgun-style and not aimed at the specific parties involved.

I have to admit that I rue having risen to the bait on more than one occasion, even when I knew better and when I knew that whatever rebuttal I might compose was simply an exercise in assuaging my own frustration. Such responses serve only to continue a dishonest discourse and fan the flames of rhetoric. Yet you misjudge me if you think I'm not aware of the hurtful things that one can read on DU on any given day or week; this latest ME conflict is simply the latest outrage du jour among years of outrages, all legitimate. Some very fine folks may be at the breaking point spiritually and emotionally, so I try to take that into account as well.

As probably one of the few Scottish-German Jewish hillbilly lesbians on DU, I have to bite my tongue at least a few times a day lest I pop a cork at some of the hurtful comments that pass by. After all, with my background I've got a lot of targets painted on my back, and especially now since the only "side" I'm on concerning this conflict is the side of peace.

[EFerrari]

90. I wonder if those would be the same ramifications of comparing

DUers to slaveholding Egyptians.

We'll see.

[Minstrel Boy]

75. what the hell?

There's no defense for that shit.

[theHandpuppet]

78. I agree

That was repulsive and revealing all at the same time.

[EFerrari]

88. And the thread has remained unlocked. It's a shame, really. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

89. Well, perhaps it will be locked or I'll be banned from the board...

... for being disgusted with that post. If this is my last post, it's been nice knowing you all.

[in_cog_ni_to]

94. ROTFLMAO!

:rofl:

[Meshuga]

16. I found it eloquent

And a sign that she is able to not only recognize but able to point out what has been happening in DU in the past few weeks.

[jonnyblitz]

21. I don't like to be considered a part of an "underbelly" just

because I am critical of Israel and against this slaughter. that is all. the anti-arab racism is disgusting, speaking of UNDERBELLYS.

[Meshuga]

36. Who said here in this thread that people are a part of the

"underbelly" just for being critical of Israel? It is understandable there are criticism of Israel given the situation. Some comments that went beyound criticism are part of what she is talking about. Kudos to the mods for deleting or locking such comments.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

52. You are right in interpretting my comment, Mr. Wiggles

I certainly don't consider those who criticize Israel and/or her action an underbelly. All states are subject to evaluation and criticism. The underbelly I am talking about is rampant racism and every single one of them has been deleted by the mods, but not before the stink set in. It is a replaying of an old, old recording.... as old as Sherlock in The Merchant of Venice.

Criticism is healthy. Irrational hate is not.

[Mr_Spock]

60. Can I thus infer that Republicans do not have these tendencies

I can infer that if those few bigots who posted here on DU is an indication of the demise of the Democratic Party, can I then also assume that the Republicans do not have bigotry in the heart of any of their ranks as they will win over the non-bigoted people?

I have found just the opposite to be true in my experience. Sure, there is a lot of bigotry against Jews on the Democratic side - I've never understood the anti-Semitism of many on this side. But I also have never met a Republican who didn't whisper when talking about blacks as if to try to hide their bigotry by speaking softly. I rarely meet Republican men who don't have ingrained misogynistic tendencies. And if you think a few anti-semitic remarks on DU defines all of us, then I would assume that an even higher tendency toward anti-semitism among my Republican friends shall also damn them in your eyes as well.

You are not criticizing DU or Democrats at all - you are criticizing the United States of America.

All groups have experiences with bigotry and we are all guilty of not speaking out against it often enough. So long as it is understood that those who would disagree with Israels heavy-handed tactics do NOT tacitly approve of the bigotry expressed by those few jackasses who use this opportunity to express their hatred. I think your statement above was overly general and generally overstated.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

145. You wrote...

"And if you think a few anti-semitic remarks on DU defines all of us..."

Please cite for me where I have expressed my feeling that that these remarks define all of us. I am amazed with the knee jerk responses my post has engendered by folks who think I am criticizing them, or all DU. I said it was there, it was happening. That's the way I see it.

Hate is a universal. I have a higher opinion of Republicans than you do. I've known many who are racist and some who are misogynist, but in about the same proportion as I know dems who are racist, classist, elitist. My dad was a Republican. He had no misogynist tendencies, nor did his friends, who were also Republicans.

I do think this whole ME hot war has changed the entire equation politically and it is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out.

[Mr_Spock]

147. "I may get flamed for this"

You seemed aware that you were being controversial - which isn't unusual for you in my experience.

"The events of the past few weeks have revealed the soft underbelly of Democratic Underground. It is festering and sick and alligned with evil. If it is truly the direction the Democratic Party is moving toward, we are done for and will never take the Republicans out of office. Never. Unless we attempt to do it with guns, and even then, we would lose.

What does that mean? It implies that there was enough written here for you to believe that the Democratic party is anti-Semitic. At least that's how I see it. Do you disagree?

I don't think you realize how negative & broad-brush your post was. Just using the word "If" in the sentence does not quell the fire within your words. I never for one instant thought that the arguments were simply based on anything more than emotional responses and I believe that they do NOT represent most (99.9%) of peoples true opinions.

"In the heat of battle many regrettable things will be said."

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

66. Thanks for giving us all an illustration of rational discourse. n/t

[stepnw1f]

67. thank you

for saying what I was about to

[barb162]

109. I am against the slaughter being caused by Hez and its rockets

and Hez's genocidal intent against Israel

[catmother]

112. so am i. n/t

[catmother]

123. this has nothing to do with israel/hizbollah, but take a look at

the hate spewed against republicans. they are garbage, aligned with the devil, etc. now that shows hate to me. not every republican is a bad person.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1750527

[barb162]

137. The name-calling , if that gets around, sure isn't going to attract

independents or centrists to the Democrats. And the Democrats can't win without them. This hate-spewing craziness has to stop!

(Most of my family are Republicans and they are not aligned with the devil , last I looked)

[Poppyseedman]

5. No flame here

...and well said.

[Zynx]

8. Well said. n/t

[EFerrari]

23. When we define this as a cultural conflict where one side is evil

we have lost. We have joined the hatred.

[TahitiNut]

29. Certain kinds of insanity seem to be contagious.

I grieve for the victims of such killings because they're human. I feel absolutely no moral obligation to buy into the demographic distinctions made by an insane person - and would regard that as contagion.

[sgxnk]

55. no we haven't

hezbollah *is* evil

sorry, if that isn't PC

fwiw, israel is certainly not a golden child immune from blame in international conflict

but israel is not evil

hezbollah is

hezbollah wants (and will do everything possible) among other things, to see the extermination of israel and of jewish people

israel wants to live in peace

israel may make mistakes in its pursuit to SURVIVE, but there is no moral comparison between hezbollah and israel

if one were to say (godwin alert) that nazis were evil during WWII would we have "lost?"

[Seeking Serenity]

93. I abhor violence.

However, I do believe that if Hezbollah and Hamas would put down their guns (and rockets), there would be peace in the region.

If Israel put down its guns, there would be a Jewish slaughter.

[sgxnk]

97. i agree nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

102. SPOT ON. That's exactly what would happen. n/t

[catmother]

114. just before i joined this thread my husband said almost those

exact words about israel.

[Mr_Spock]

61. That is my point in post #60

As if a few anonymous posters on DU define the Democratic party!

[EFerrari]

64. Very strange times, Mr. Spock. Makes me want to go hang

with the boys in the engine room.

[theHandpuppet]

91. Exactly.

Well said.

[TahitiNut]

27. "they are a race "???

Strange. I was under the impression that Judaism was a religion. As someone born during WW2, I was under the impression that one of the great evils of Nazi Germany was to corruptly portray Judaism as 'racial' - and thereby inferior.

A couple of my closest friends are Nordic, blond(e) Jews. As a (nominal) gentile, I was honored to participate in one's (Reconstructionist) wedding. Attending Passover seder, I've not noticed any 'racial' differences between me (a Viking descendant) and those who included me in a celebration of their faith.

Go figure. :eyes:

[PCIntern]

37. I'm white...or Caucasian as it were

I don't know about any of the other Yids here, but my race is not Jewish. Judaism is an exceedingly complex religion wherein people who spend their entire lives studying the arcane intricacies of Jewish Law and history are still debating these issues right up until the End. You could make the point that many Jews emanate form one or the other gene pool, but as you say, you can have Ethiopian Black Jews sitting next to your Nordic friend and they will all be able to participate in the Saturday service which has had the same text for thousands of years.

[catmother]

115. i was raised roman catholic as were my 2 younger sisters. we

all drifted away from the religion in our 20s. one of my sisters, converted to judaism about 20 years ago. that does not change that her ethnicity is german irish.

BTW. her conversion was not easy. she had to go before a board of rabbis before she could even start her studies which took a few years.

that's one of the things i admire about judaism -- there not out to convert anyone like some other religions.

[Meshuga]

41. True

Jews are not a race. We are a people. A tribe. And Judaism is more than a religion (you claimed it was only a religion). Judaism is religion, a system of ethical rules, and peoplehood. As far as race, there are European Jews, Arab Jews, Ethiopian Jews, etc. But, in defense of TallahasseeGrannie, I know she didn't mean to use "race" in the same context as Nazi Germans. I don't think you are implying that but if you are I think you are making a mistake.

[PCIntern]

43. Layers upon layers of complexity...

I've always been overwhelmed by it.

[sgxnk]

58. the term "race"

is sometimes used with judaism, incorrectly

however, judaism, unlike most religions (at least among orthodox) has matrilineal descent, which other religions don't (most don't)

so, it is passed down in that respect

then there is the whole "chosen people" thang.

of course, jews can be ANY race (or combination thereof). see: the Welcome Back Kotter - Juan Epstein principle (tm)

the state of israel, in its right of return, recognizes the right of any jew to (pretty much ) automatic citizenship. and one of the ways they determine whether somebody is a bona fide jew is if their mother was jewish, as i understand it

[TallahasseeGrannie]

111. Here is what Dictionary.com says

Jew P Pronunciation Key (j)
n.
An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.




To me, it is a race. It is a race that has been diluted over time through the dispersion, but ask anyone with TaySachs if it is a race and they will probably agree. Now, Judaism is NOT a race. It is a religion. But I think Jews are a race. According to the definition above, there are multiple meanings.

[Mass]

116. If it is a religion, you deny the right for many Jewish people to be

Jewish.

It may not be a racial group in the pure genetic sense, but it is definitively a cultural group that includes people who are not at all religious.

[TahitiNut]

122. Another obfuscation rears its ugly head.

My "non-practicing Catholic" friends and family acknowledge that they're culturally "Catholic" but not Roman Catholics -- in much the same way I recognize that I'm "culturally Norwegian-American" but, not an immigrant and not a Norwegian speaker, I don't regard that as a "right" or a "nationality" or a "race" or a "religion" ... merely a characterization of the family traditions in which I was raised.

To elevate such things to 'rights' (particularly the 'right of return' which is, in reality, an entitlement and not a right) is to go skiing on the slippery slope of "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others," imho.

I personally regard the "tribes" apocrypha as some large part myth and some small part history ... and having no empirical application to present-day reality, only a faith-based application. Our individual genetic histories (both matrilineal and patrilineal) are, at this point, so ambiguous, diverse, mingled, convoluted, and indeterminate ... not to mention irrelevant to our individual accomplishments and worth as human beings ... that I personally reject the real-world legitimacy of such claims. I don't care what people choose to believe as long as they don't impose such beliefs on others through force of law or arms. Thus, people can believe that abortion is immoral or homosexuality is immoral or that Utah is the Promised Land or that Hill Cummorah is holy ground or whatever ... but that doesn't legitimize killing or imprisonment of others because that's what THEIR "holy book" says. It makes no difference to me whether it's Islam, Judaism, Protestantism, Catholicism, Mormonism, Hinduism, Mammonism, or Voodooism to me.

[Mass]

126. I dont understand what your point is. If your point is that the state of

Israel should not exist, may be you should state that without making excuses and rationalization.

If not, make your point.

[TahitiNut]

133. I didn't mumble.

It's plain English. Nothing is implied - I said what I mean.
So go wrestle with the straw men you construct and leave me out if it.

[133724]

47. EBENEZER

Once to every man and nation
Comes the moment to decide
In the strife of truth with falsehood
for the good or evil side
Some great cause, God's new messiah
Offering each the bloom or blight
And the choice goes on forever
'Twixt the darkenss and that light.


Then to side with truth is noble
When we share her wretched crust
Ere her cause bring fame and profit
And 'tis prosperous to be just
Then it is the brave man chooses
While the coward stands aside
Till the multitude makes virtue
Of the faith they once denied.


By the light of burning martyers
Christ thy bleeding feet we track
Toiling up new Calvaries ever
With the cross that turns not back
New occasions teach new duties
Time makes ancient good uncouth
They must upward still and onward
Who would keep abreast of truth.


Though the cause of evil prosper
Yet 'tis truth alone is strong
Though her portion is the scaffold
And upon the throne be wrong
Yet that scaffold sways the future
And, behind the dim unknown
Standeth God within the shadow
Keeping watch above his own.

James Russel Lowell

Singing Truth to Power since 1819

[ruggerson]

84. I couldn't agree with you more

I"ve been astounded by the repugnant bigotry here. The only thing I can ascribe it to is that it has become very trendy amongst certain elements of the far left to take up the Palestinian cause and this conflict has emboldened many of them to become defenders of Hezbollah, as well. In their zealotry, some of them cross the line into outright hatred. WHat is sad is that they do not see that they are as deluded and hateful as the far religious right. Flip side. Same coin.

[barb162]

108. One if the best tell it like it is posts I have ever seen.

You are the greatest, TG! And besides that you have guts.

[JerseygirlCT]

127. Thanks Grannie. I agree with you. nt

[Dutch]

140. One of the best posts I've ever read at DU. Thank you.

I couldn't agree more with everything you said.

[Fredda Weinberg]

6. I would distinguish between a disturbed individual and terrorism

When a lone gunman walks it a mosque and starts shooting - or targets women come out of a Jewish Federation building - they are acting out in response to their own demons.

I do not compare it to organizations that raise funds, teach methodically and train to inflict mass casulaties on unsuspecting victims.

What happened in Seattle was a tragedy and I expect American Muslims to recoil at the violence as they did after 9/11.

[cali]

11. Precisely.

This was not a planned or coordinated attack by a group. It was the work of one deranged individual. There's an enormous difference.

[Poppyseedman]

12. Funny, I don't remember mass protests in the streets after 9/11

denouncing radical Islam by peace loving Muslims in America. I'm not saying there were not reasoned voices speaking, but not nearly enough.

"I expect American Muslims to recoil at the violence as they did after 9/11."

[EFerrari]

18. After 9/11, many Muslims were afraid to leave their homes

let alone draw attention to themselves on purpose.

I worked as an escort in the Los Angeles area for people who needed to do basic errands.

[theHandpuppet]

72. Yes, my neighbor was one of them

For months after 911 he was terrified that his family might be a target of someone with anti-Islamic sentiments.

[JerseygirlCT]

128. And not just Muslims -- Sikhs as well -- their turbans just

"looked" Arab to a great many uneducated morans looking for retribution.

[Fredda Weinberg]

31. They weren't dancing in the streets, either n/t

[CJCRANE]

46. 9/11 was carried out by 19 people

who most of the world knew nothing about and not connected to any official muslim organisation or country or govt. Why should muslims protest about it (anymore than anyone else)? It was a criminal act perpetrated by a small cabal of people funded by dubious sources (some of them apparently connected to Bush administration allies).

[Fredda Weinberg]

48. Look more closely

After 9/11 I spent some time researching groups like WAMY, the World Association of Muslim Youth, which has been closed down in the US. The financial ties to al Quaeda were global and well documented.

But if you need to believe otherwise, I understand self-delusion.

My point is still made: 9/11 was well-planned and financed to use terror for a political cause. One lone gunman in Seattle was acting out his frustrations.

[CJCRANE]

81. I agree entirely with your last two sentences..

on edit: by the way it is entirely possible for terrorists to be funded by both their supporters and intelligence/govt interests - just look at Iran/Contra and also clandestine US support of the Afghan Mujahideen (which later evolved into both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda).

[catmother]

117. i agree with you there. i only remember seeing muslims in this

country and other countries clapping and cheering.

[wellst0nev0ter]

135. Can't Resist That Muslim Bashing,Can't We?

I seem to remember events quite differently. Muslim leaders everywhere condemned the 9-11 attacks, including Iran's Ayatollah, Iran's president at the time and Mommar Qaddafi. I remember Arafat giving blood to the victims of 9-11. I think the only Arab leader who didn't sympathize with this country was Saddam.

This sympathy is evidenced by the fact that we heard hardly a peep coming from the Muslim world when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan.

And I sure hope you haven't fallen for the "celebrating Palestinians" lie as well.

[catmother]

150. of course the leaders of the some muslim countries condemned

it. what else could they do? i'm talking about the people -- mobs of them in those various countries cheering and clapping and some were right here in our own country.

it wasn't muslim bashing -- it was just what i saw. let's face it -- many muslims hate us -- not all -- there are some that are peaceful wonderful people. unfortunately the media did show them.

[adriennui]

17. i assume you;re speaking of the madrassas

eom.

[Fredda Weinberg]

30. Precisely n/t

[The Stranger]

10. I just read about the Seattle attack and am horrified.

And I think that same kind of evil thinking is going on in a much larger scale. It is when you are talking about governments engaging in this kind of iniquity that you really begin to see evil.

Recently, the Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists and the Warmongering Neocons have cemented an alliance that has hijacked the U.S. government and steered it into a series of conflicts and wars, most notably the Iraq war, and a wrecking of timeless diplomatic alliances dating back almost to the beginning of the nation. They have done so by also taking over the media and the inner workings of the G.O.P.

Now these people are far more dangerous than someone on the street. These people have infested the U.S. government and hijacked it -- changing its most fundamental laws, civil liberties and even some of the greatest diplomatic accomplishments in history -- such as the Geneva Conventions -- in an effort to force the nation into wars outside of its national interest.

It is these people that have actually engaged in systematic "ignominious attacks" that actually exploit the religious and cultural sensibilities of others to torture them. Examples have leaked through the extraordinary state secret complex that they have also set up, but it is available to be seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and an archipelago of CIA-run prisons in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

Moreover, these people have even sought to have the American Psychological Association change its rules so that professionals sworn to heal people's pyschological illnesses could be used to facilitate the torture by assisting in finding these religious sensibilities to heighten the psychological damage and personality destruction of torture.

It is bigotry on a level simply never conceived of before. And it has been used under the euphemism (because it is illegal) of "interrogation techniques in a systematic, meticulous way -- in a way rarely seen in history (although seen in Orwell's fiction) except in the most notorious regimes people have sworn never to forget.

Far worse than someone on the street -- and the same evil on a world-wide scale -- is what is going on with those Neoconservatives who have hijacked the law-making and law enforcement mechanisms of the most powerful nation ever on the planet.

[Mandate My Ass]

15. this thread is so repulsive it makes me physically ill

it won't be locked though.

[PCIntern]

19. on what basis would YOU lock this

if you were the mod, which you may be someday.

[Mandate My Ass]

22. The consensus

The events of the past few weeks have revealed the soft underbelly of Democratic Underground. It is festering and sick and alligned with evil.

People here disagree with me every day on any number of topics, that doesn't make them evil or sick in my mind. That doesn't mean they have to be eliminated from the party either. This my-way-or-the-highway attitude is revolting. I wonder if people's consciences are bothering them on the needless slaughter of the Lebanese. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

[PCIntern]

24. Although I did not use that word

nor would I necessarily...

I would submit to you that those of us who have been the targets of terrorism, named as such, perceive these people who give aid and comfort as less than OK. How's that for moderation?

Now, if someone who lived next door to you was physically threatening to you, and I came to visit and you told me of your plight, what would you say if I replied,"Well, you probably did something to deserve this, I mean, did your dog poop on his lawn? And anyway, he has the same rights as you do and although he's threatened to kill your children and your dog, you really should temper your response, and not get too excited. in fact, we'll convene some people from the rest of the neighborhood to decide just how mad you should get at any given time. But we're watching you so you better behave."

[jonnyblitz]

32. i guess some of us have different ideas on who the "terrorists"

are and who gives aid and comfort to them.

[rayofreason]

63. Needless slaughter of civilians...

... is what happens when Israeli bombs and missiles miss their targets, or when Hamas or Hezbullah bombs and missiles hit their targets.

[Usrename]

139. Perfect! Finally a view of terrorism that makes sense.

It is what is in your mind that determines whether or not one is a terrorist.

Behavior has nothing to do with it at all.

It is perfectly acceptable to kill innocent people as long as you don't enjoy it, right?

Now I finally get it.

And all this time I have been thinking that the Arabs were terrorists because they were uppity.

What was I thinking?

[cali]

20. Wait a minute

I find the OP pretty nauseating, but the comments that follow aren't all lined up with those sentiments.

[KharmaTrain]

25. Yom Kippur, 1973

I can recall the shock in the congregation at my synagogue that morning when the Rabbi announced Israel had just been invaded by Eygpt and Syria on the holiest of days...and how Israel was caugh unaware and had to quickly mobilize. Yes, it was a deliberate attack not just on Israel that day, but Jews around the world.

I rarely see mention here of the suicide bombing inside Israel...the non-stop war on civilians the PLO, Hamas, PFLP, Hezbollah and other "nationalist" groups have done not just to Israeli civilians, but to Jews around the world. There's never any mention of the mass expulsion of Jews from Arab countries in 1948 or the persecution they faced in Ethiopia or Iran. It doesn't fit the Palestinian as the ultimate victim meme many here seem to have...most with little knowledge of the region or the cultures involved.

[PCIntern]

26. They don't care

about our little problems.

The Jews just didn't follow the script and die. You must rememnber however that the Egyptians probably had the same conversation about 3500 years ago.

[EFerrari]

28. Considering what Jews have suffered at the hands of Christians

that list is selective and it doesn't obviate the suffering of the Palestinian people, who have been a political football since Partition.

[KharmaTrain]

40. How About Before Petition???

If you study the region, the concept of "Palestinian" is a 20th century one. Actually the name comes from Phillistines...a non-Arab tribe that had long since vanished from the region. Nonetheless...from nearly 70AD...when the Romans took control of Jerusalem and destroyed that Israel to 1948, the region was host to one outside power or another...be it the Romans or the Crusaders or the Egyptians and Syrians or Turks or the British.

The Palestinian concept is one of European design...just like Lebanese or Jordanian or Iraqi. These were created in the captials of Europe with little regard or understanding of the people in the region...and primarily to create spheres of influence for those powers to exploit. Yes, the Palestinians have long been on the short-end of the stick. Heck, it was the Turks who invited Zionists in 100 years ago to keep a check on any threat by the Arabs in that region to Constantinople's power. Again, a history book shows a lot of suffering by the local populace.

There's no pass on this end for the plight of the Palestinians. I saw it first hand...and see their situation as esperate as long as a state of war exists. They've been held hostage first by Arafat and now by Hamas and Hezbollah whose power is only enhanced by an on-going struggle and further death and destruction...not by dialogue and co-existance.

If you really want to find out about an attrocity the Palestinians have suffered since partion...may I suggest looking at how they were treated by the Jordanians and Eqyptians from 1948-1967...they had few rights and services. Or how about the billions Arafat was given as part of the Oslo agreement that was meant to develop a Palestinian business infrastructure but ended up in Swiss bank accounts.

Cheers...

[EFerrari]

44. You misread my post. I didn't say "suffered exclusively

at the hands of Israel". Hence, the football figure.

[KharmaTrain]

49. All Religious-Based Wars And Opression Are Stupid

but will continue as it also serves the power and financial gains of certain individuals. Nothing gets the blood boiling or people willing to do stupid/silly things than when the name of "god" is invoked...and how their struggle is a divine one.

What's the goofy irony is now much these days I hear the term "Christian God" or "Moslem God" or "Jewish God"...wasn't this supposed to be the same person?

Cheers...

[EFerrari]

51. Yep. And it looks like the sectarianism -- being inflamed

by roughly the same people who want to repeal the "death tax" -- is only gonna get worse before it gets better.

Maybe we'll surprise ourselves and have a fit of sanity.

[catmother]

119. i remember that well. i was living in new york and one of the

men i worked with had dual citizenship (US/Israel). he sat everyday with his radio on and waiting for the call that he might have to go and fight for israel.

i'm not jewish, but i am certainly a jewish sympathizer and i support israel. growing up in new york i was exposed to jewish people at a young age. i've had jewish friends, co-workers, employers, neighbors. during the late 60s i dated 2 israel guys. one had fought in the '68 war. he was very different from american jews and i admired his love for his country.

[canichelouis]

33. Religion and/or Tribalism

Brings out the worst in all humans.

We really are animals.

[Ravenseye]

34. Why can't we start the cycle of violence material?

I mean, isn't that eliminating a pretty large core of the conflict?

Let's be honest here. What happened in Seattle is horrifically wrong, and as an Arab it disgusts me. If I wasn't a pacifist I'd beat the crap out of this guy for making all Arabs and Muslims look like lunatics. Violence doesn't solve anything, in my opinion, but this type of hate just shows how crazy this guy is. On top of that he has another current charge for public exposure. He's obviously not right in the head and has mental health problems.

I know many Arabs, mostly of Iraqi descent, but a good smattering of Lebanese, Joranians, and Palestinians, and I would say that the vast majority. VAST majority have nothing against Jews. Most are angry at Israel, but don't personally hate someone just for being Jewish. Many Iraqi's I've talked to that lived in Baghdad after the Jews were forced to leave, lamented it. Baghdad was once 1/3rd Jewish, and jews in Iraq even head minister level positions, and built much of the great architecture in the city. Many miss that community even to this day. The very few I've met who I would truly call anti-jewish were...well crazies. Even the other Muslims I knew thought they were nuts. The Arab Muslim version of the people who bomb abortion clinics.

As far as the attacks on the holy days, keep in mind that Friday is the day in Islam, so attacks will happen on that day not necessarily because it's the Jewish Sabbath, but because the lunatics have just been all amped up by their own religious experiences, etc. The Yom Kippur war taking advantage of a holiday is not anti-jewish, but simple military strategy. Kind of like the Tet Offensive and hundreds of other attacks that occured on holidays.

As far as being carefull about the muslim sensibilities during the first Gulf War that was not because we were being carefull of those we attacked, but those we were fighting with. There were plenty of Arab and Muslim countries who had soldiers there, and we were respecting our allies, not our enemies. During the current Gulf War we've attacked and killed plenty of people on Muslim holy days, holidays, sabbaths.

Your second to last paragraph is particularly strong and I agree with it completely. Terrorists don't play by rules and their actions only galvanize the worst elements on both sides. A palestininan killing 20 people on an israeli bus makes people angry and full of hate, and then days later in 'quelling' an uprising in Gaza 40 palestinians are killed in order to kill 2 terrorists just does the same thing.

That's why I think it's imperetive we don't ignore the cycle of violence. Arab and Jew HAVE lived in peace. It's those radical elements on both sides that don't want us to think that. Arab and Jew are brothers. We're the same. Shalom. Salam. I don't care if your blood has been diluted by 1000 years in europe and you have blond hair and blue eyes. We're family. We've lived together in peace and prosperity before, we can do it again. The cycle of violence must be put at the forefront, otherwise it will simply continue and continue and continue. We CAN'T look at each of these episodes individually, whether it's a lunatic killing people at a Jewish Center in Seattle or Israel shelling civilians on a beach or Hezbollah murdering Israelis with 60 year old random rocket technology.

All hatred and violence must be shed. All Arabs must immediately treat all Jews as his brothers and sisters, and all Jews must immediately treat all Arabs as his brothers and sisters. Put the cycle of violence into the past, and don't point fingers or blame. Don't mention how many were killed, or who started what. Just stop. Put it in the past. Move together into the future.

[PCIntern]

39. Yes,

and if I may add, that the normal person in any of the societies has no interest in war with one's neighbor. That being said and acknowledged, that's why I wrote my post saying to put the 'cycle of violence' aside. You said that we shouldn't ignore it, and then went on to say that we should put it all in the past and shed the violencce and hatred. My point was that I didn't want to dwell on that for the purposes of this discussion and that you, in fact, really feel the same way - that it must just stop. We agree...I think.

[Ravenseye]

56. We generally agree

We can't ignore it (the cycle of violence). We have to acknowledge that it is there though. We have to recognize that every time some lunatic walks into a JCC shooting, or Israel bombs a civilian neighborhood, it's all a part of that cycle of violence. Nothing is independent of it. This nutjobs hatred of jews it directly linked to the past 60 years of history and the cycle. If we ignore the cycle of violence, and ignore the big picture, we can't see that the whole thing is ridiculous. Seeing just Hezbollah killing some soldiers and kidnapping others, and not the 60 years of history that directly lead to that moment, makes it easier to feel like in any particularly instance "my side" or "your side" or "their side" is correct, when really everyone who is pursuing violence in this matter is wrong.

We can't ignore it, but we can't use it as an excuse either. We have to see the cycle of violence. Acknowledge the cycle of violence, and then take the whole thing, crinkle it up into a ball and toss it aside and forget that any of it ever happened.

So i'm not saying we should ignore it. We can't. We just need to consciously abandon it.

Too many people in the world hate Arabs and Jews...We need to stop fighting so we can gang up on them, instead of having them make us fight each other. ;)

[EFerrari]

62. I don't think it's accurate to say that societies have no interest

in warring with neighbors. To the contrary. That's one reason why, for example, neighboring tribes often had names for their neigbors such as "those snakes over the hill" while their name for themselves might be "we the only people".

[CJCRANE]

42. Good post..nt

[EFerrari]

45. If you "start the cycle of violence material" you make the issue

dimensional and before you know it, people will start thinking. No telling where that might go.

:)

[laura888]

54. Arab and Jew are brothers.

Thank you.

[Harper_is_Bush]

71. The "cycle of violence"? Wouldn't that just be "making excuses",

according to the OP?

[Ravenseye]

83. No it would be acknowledging the past

If we can't acknowledge what has happened on both sides then we can't move past it. We need to acknowledge that what happens today is tied to what has happend for the past 60 years. If we can't acknowledge that, we can't break the cycle, we'll just be doomed to repeat it.

[liberalitch]

35. There are many here, who just like the Neo-cons.....

drink the kool-aid.
Us liberals..... we have our own array of flavors.
Our government has for years supported Israel (Both when it was liberal and conservative), to do the same would be conformity.
There are someof us here who will do/write ANYTHING so as to say "Look at me! I'm young, enlightened and in an effort to buck the system will believe any ideology that opposes it."

They want to prove things,... not change things.

So their support of Hezbollah (Yes, it is support, so there), is a knee-jerk reaction to a long term (and well reasoned) position in support of Israel.

Not only does it speak to our frequent inability to see the forest for the trees and smack of anti-semitism, but it again plays into the conservative assertion that we "are flakey".

I do not support the President, the war in Iraq, and I hate them for what they have done to my country.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Black male targets white passengers on anniversary of Pearl Harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson

Colin Ferguson (born January 14, 1958, Kingston, Jamaica) was convicted of murdering six people and injuring nineteen others on the Long Island Rail Road in Nassau County, New York on December 7, 1993. As the train pulled into the Merillon Avenue Station, Ferguson pulled out his gun and started firing at white passengers. Ferguson's trial was notable for a number of unusual developments, including his firing of his defense counsel and insisting on representing himself and examining himself as a live witness.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060729/ts_nm/crime_shooting_dc_6

Police would not disclose the content of the conversation, but Amy Wasser-Simpson, the federation's vice president, told the Seattle Times in a story on its Web site the man got past security at the building and shouted, "I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel," before he began shooting.

Naveed Afzal Haq is no more representative of the Muslim community than Colin Ferguson is representative of the Black community. Or, Baruch Goldman is representative of the Jewish Community.

[Fredda Weinberg]

50. I don't remember Ferguson mentioning Pearl Harbor

and I saw his testimony in his trial - was nearly incoherent.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. I haven't heard the Naveed Afzal Haq mentioned the Sabbath.

But, the massacre on the train took place on Pearl Harbor day.

Ferguson is almost certainly loopy. I have no idea about the mental status of Naveed Afzal Haq. From what I've heard, Baruch Goldman was "sane" (if someone who shoots down civilans can be considered sane).

[Fredda Weinberg]

107. You may be hearing what you want to hear

Goldman was responding to his own demons ... no one trained him for a mission.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. Re:Tallahassee Grannie

She didn't mean any harm when she said the Jewish people were a race. I think she meant a "people" whatever that means.

Judaism is unique in that it contains elements of race, ethnicity,religion, and people-hood but the bottom line is a gentile is as free to become as a Jew is as free to become a gentile.


Any way my sincere hope is for all peoples to live in peace and mutual respect but I know that will not occur in my lifetime.

[Harper_is_Bush]

69. I am angry at Israel for what it's doing at the moment.

It's gone far beyond defending itself.

This man obviously felt a similar anger, and was mentally unable to deal with it without taking action. That's not "making excuses", it's the simple truths.

Israel is sowing a future of more violence by what it's doing, violence from terrorists and people with questionable mental health.

[sistersofmercy]

76. This is just awful.

Those poor women. I hate radicals in all forms. Why lunatics assign blame and anger this way I will never be able to understand. Jews in a temple in Saettle have nothing to do with what's going on in Lebanon or the West Bank. It's the radicl thinking of a weak mind blamimg an entire religious population worldwide for the actions of a government. I'm so sorry for the families, especially the children who are without their mothers.

[AliceWonderland]

85. Of course it's tragic

and all violence should be mourned.

As long as we remember there are no special victims -- none who have more humanity than any others, none whose collective punishment can be ignored.

I have no problem with asking for motives or understanding a situation in its context in history. If that is a fetid underbelly of hate, then I have no problem with being a part of that. I ask where things come from, how they start, and why they occur; without understanding there can be no solutions, and I have noticed since immigrating to the US that Americans are allergic to history, context, or complexity. I suspect in this case, there is litte to understand and the man was disturbed when he committed his violent act. However, asking what was behind an act of violence is not criminal, for heaven's sake. I did not read the posts you speak of, but really, in your OP I found a pass for collective punishment of, say, Lebanese civilians by the Isreali war machine based upon the actions of repressive states we support with our tax dollars in many instances. So much for our sensitivities to Muslim sensibilities -- the subtext for our current foreign policy is largely that Arabs and Muslims are less human, so I am unmoved by the moral outrage in this case. A child in Lebanon, or a refugee, or a Red Cross vehicle bears NO more responsibility for the evils of the world than the poor women in Seattle.

There can be no special victims. The underpinning of human rights is that all humans possess them, equally and irrevocably. If we lose that, we have nothing.

[jonnyblitz]

87. "as long as there are no special victims"

yup.

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. We'll have police stationed at the front door of our synagogue next week

just like we did right after 911 and the bullshit story about the Jews celebrating when the towers fell was circulating. There are police manning the doors at EVERY Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah service, every year.

I was at service when this Seattle shooting happened and missed the deleted posts. I can imagine what they were though.

My heart goes out to the families and friends of the victims. :(

[PCIntern]

99. We have that for every service and

for every function after hours. There is a group of PA State Police who voluntarily rotate thru...many are not Jewish but recognize the threat. Think they know what's going on behind the scenes? You bet.

[Igel]

100. Some attacks happen on Friday afternoon not

so much because of the Sabbath, but because of a khatib's khutb. Even if it's not due directly to a khatib, and the attackers are mentally ill (although it seems that sometimes the mental illness is overt extremist religiousity), the fact that some attacks occur on Friday is not an accident--just like the mass protests we usually see on Friday, as opposed to other days of the week.

I presume this is in response to the Pakistani attacker in Seattle. I note two things: He wanted to go to Pakistan, and that his family had somebody watch their house when they were out of town. I'm willing to indulge my cynicism and say that "out of town" = "Pakistan", from time to time. And even if he wasn't radicalized at the Tri-Cities mosque, he might have been radicalized in Pakistan; no shortage of Islamo-loonies there.

Conversely, he might have merely picked up loony ideas from the Internet; no shortage of Jew-hating hate-spewing Islamist sites out there. But I don't think the Sabbath was involved in his thinking; I suspect he finished his prayers for courage, and headed off.

[PCIntern]

101. Thank you for that explanation

that is most interesting...

For a great long while, I used to dread getting up on Sunday AM, for I would be greeted by the CNN or MSNBC cverage of the latest bombing in Tel Aviv at a cafe or restaurant which was specifically designed to hit the post-Shabbat crowd. It's like the tattoos which the Nazis executed...it's not the action so much as the ignominy. (The tattooing of the body violates Jewish Law, and is rooted in the prohibition of the defilement of the body - at leat among observant Jews.) interestingly, every Jewish marine I know, save one, (and I know quite a few), got at least one small tattoo.

[barb162]

110. great post

and thanks for posting it
:hi:

[catmother]

121. wonderful post.

[Karenina]

124. I'm calling BULLSHIT.

"This is more than an attack - it is an ignominious attack upon Jews and Judaism."

Sorry, this is a vicious, homocidal attack by we-don't-yet-know-whom. Your description reads like a veiled call-to-arms to hold ANYONE and everyone who might be "considered in anyway like him" up for "fair game." HE is one hateful maniac in custody for whom I would have to waive my opposition to the death penalty. Make him your poster boy for "Ay-rabs" at your own risk.

[Ian David]

129. See related thread: America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse

See related thread: America's Roadmap to The Apocalypse
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2747646&mesg_id=2747646

[saracat]

138. I do NOT support the violence with which either Israel or Hisbollah

has reacted. Does that make me evil? I also observe that over 600 Lebanese have died and far fewer Israelis ( not that Iraelis should be killed either). I also observe that Israel is using white phosphorus, which is horrible. I have always supported Israel's right to defend itself and her right to exist but she is being used by America to ferment trouble with Syria and Iran. And Israel"s overreaction is not justified. I do not support Bush. I do not support the use of Israel to further the PNAC agenda. I guess, I am , by your definition, evil.And as for your example, how many Lebanese were killed on a Friday? It is absurd. Both sides are wrong and more importantly, we are wrong. This killing has got to stop.
If we had even the semblance of a Peace Plan, this would not be happening. Bush has , from the early days, refused to deal with the ME. He didn't even speak to anyone for 15 months and then dropped it. Contrast that with Clinton who was still working on a peace plan his last hours in office! The international community has got to come together and stop BOTH sides of this.

[rman]

141. It IS part of the cycle of violence in that region.

It is extremely biased to emphasize one aspect of it at the exclusion of the rest of the cycle.

[OETKB]

142. "Sake of argument?"

Must we always reduce the situation down to its least common denominator. The problem for both sides is the use of violence. Who started what becomes irrelevant. Once you join the club of "retaliators" you are lost. You are doomed to blatant or subtle revenge scenarios which the above represents. We have allowed retaliators to direct our affairs and we have reaped the worldwind. At our convenience we suspend the rule of law when it suits us. Either we will become a global society of laws or we will allow our wickedness to have the upper hand. Maybe an ideal, but it is why representative governments were created in the first place.

All DUers should read Thomas Paine's "Common Sense," <http://www.ushistory.org/paine/commonsense/sense1.htm> a treatise that outlines the way out of the woods for human beings.

Given our tribal and hierachal nature we have responsibilities as leaders and followers(neither one a dirty word). Presently, IMHO, we are excelling in neither. It is very difficult to loosen ties that have been created so strongly over the years so we can broaden the tent to include more of the human race. This is the nut of our survival not figuring out how to destroy some rival.

[Jade Fox]

148. This was an attack on Jews.....

It's interesting that the gunman didn't seek out Israelis, but decided any Jew would do. Thus, all Jews are blamed for the inexcusable behavior of Israel.

Of course, this was just one guy, apparently with an unstable history. But he was working off common assumptions.